JaySecrets
Poet Rockstar
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2024
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@JadeKnight pt. 2
This last claim is so crazy as to not even deserve response, but I will respond anyway…
Here is the full quote:
All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever. Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you. The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand, a hard-faced nation who shall not respect the old or show mercy to the young. It shall eat the offspring of your cattle and the fruit of your ground, until you are destroyed; it also shall not leave you grain, wine, or oil, the increase of your herds or the young of your flock, until they have caused you to perish.
They shall besiege you in all your towns, until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout all your land. And they shall besiege you in all your towns throughout all your land, which the Lord your God has given you. And you shall eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters, whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you. The man who is the most tender and refined among you will begrudge food to his brother, to the wife he embraces, and to the last of the children whom he has left, so that he will not give to any of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because he has nothing else left, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in all your towns. The most tender and refined woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because she is so delicate and tender, will begrudge to the husband she embraces, to her son and to her daughter, her afterbirth that comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears, because lacking everything she will eat them secretly, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in your towns.
That isn’t a command. That is a warning of a curse because of disobedience. It is a warning that they will become so desperate and warped in their thinking that they will even do the unthinkable: cannibalize the offspring God gave them. Quite the opposite of proving your point, it shows the sickness of mind it takes to disregard and destroy that human life. It shows that, when you are under that level of delusion, you are under a curse, under judgement by God.
Now lets see what the Bibe does say on the topic, since you brought it up so directly.
Jeremiah 1:4-5
Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
God tells the prophet that in his preborn state he was already known, consecrated and ordained.
Psalm 139:11-16
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.
For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
In this stunning and beautiful Psalm of praise, the Psalmist’s life is considered precious and specially made while that life was still in the womb. I particularly love the word-picture in verse 15. It is particularly descriptive and perfectly put.
Job 10:11-13
You clothed me with skin and flesh,
and knit me together with bones and sinews.
You have granted me life and steadfast love,
and your care has preserved my spirit.
Yet these things you hid in your heart;
I know that this was your purpose.
Who was that who put the skin on the pre-born baby, who knits that baby together in the womb (a perfect description, and a beautiful one, by the way)? Who gave life to that baby in the womb? Who put His love and care on that pre-born child? Oh. God Himself.
I could go on, but at this point I’ll just list more references in the Old Testament that you can look up:
Isaiah 64:8
Psalm 127:3-5
Isaiah 49:1-5
So much for the Old Testament not valuing the pre-born human life.
Well, the New Testament surely is silent on the subject though, right?
Not quite. While it is not a book of law, per se, and while the New Testament, far from negating the Old, fulfills and completes it, and so the Testament isn’t rehashing every subject already addressed in the Old, it certainly has examples of the value God puts on children. There is one particular passage that I particularly love because of what it shows, by implication, of how God sees the unborn child.
Before that though, to show that the Old Testament is not negated by the new, a very direct statement by Jesus Himself should suffice. There are several similar statements and points made throughout the New Testament, but since you put the value higher on the “letters in red” (I don’t, because God spoke ALL of them) here’s what Jesus had to say:
Matthew 5:17-22
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire…
There is a lot to unpack there, but I think the point is made clearly enough for now.
So, my favorite passage regarding the pre-born baby in the New Testament:
Luke 1:39-45
In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”
This is the preamble to what most people know as the Magnificat. Mary is visiting her cousin Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, the prophesied forerunner of Jesus the Messiah. Jesus is in Mary’s womb. John is in Elizabeth’s womb. When the forerunner, John, hears the voice of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and knows he is in the presence of the pre-born Messiah, the pre-born John leaps for joy in the womb! This is, in fact, the context for Mary’s famous song. The song is a response to the actions, identities, and already active callings on two pre-born babies. That, in any reasonable mind looking at Scripture, should easily seal the deal.
You may not like what Scripture says about when life begins and what value God puts on it. You may not even honor or respect Scripture and its authority. But please be honest enough with the text to not try and make it devalue an innocent life the way you do. You say you looked and couldn't find anyting. You didn't look very hard then.
This last claim is so crazy as to not even deserve response, but I will respond anyway…
Here is the full quote:
All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever. Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you. The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand, a hard-faced nation who shall not respect the old or show mercy to the young. It shall eat the offspring of your cattle and the fruit of your ground, until you are destroyed; it also shall not leave you grain, wine, or oil, the increase of your herds or the young of your flock, until they have caused you to perish.
They shall besiege you in all your towns, until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout all your land. And they shall besiege you in all your towns throughout all your land, which the Lord your God has given you. And you shall eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters, whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you. The man who is the most tender and refined among you will begrudge food to his brother, to the wife he embraces, and to the last of the children whom he has left, so that he will not give to any of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because he has nothing else left, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in all your towns. The most tender and refined woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because she is so delicate and tender, will begrudge to the husband she embraces, to her son and to her daughter, her afterbirth that comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears, because lacking everything she will eat them secretly, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in your towns.
That isn’t a command. That is a warning of a curse because of disobedience. It is a warning that they will become so desperate and warped in their thinking that they will even do the unthinkable: cannibalize the offspring God gave them. Quite the opposite of proving your point, it shows the sickness of mind it takes to disregard and destroy that human life. It shows that, when you are under that level of delusion, you are under a curse, under judgement by God.
Now lets see what the Bibe does say on the topic, since you brought it up so directly.
Jeremiah 1:4-5
Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
God tells the prophet that in his preborn state he was already known, consecrated and ordained.
Psalm 139:11-16
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.
For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
In this stunning and beautiful Psalm of praise, the Psalmist’s life is considered precious and specially made while that life was still in the womb. I particularly love the word-picture in verse 15. It is particularly descriptive and perfectly put.
Job 10:11-13
You clothed me with skin and flesh,
and knit me together with bones and sinews.
You have granted me life and steadfast love,
and your care has preserved my spirit.
Yet these things you hid in your heart;
I know that this was your purpose.
Who was that who put the skin on the pre-born baby, who knits that baby together in the womb (a perfect description, and a beautiful one, by the way)? Who gave life to that baby in the womb? Who put His love and care on that pre-born child? Oh. God Himself.
I could go on, but at this point I’ll just list more references in the Old Testament that you can look up:
Isaiah 64:8
Psalm 127:3-5
Isaiah 49:1-5
So much for the Old Testament not valuing the pre-born human life.
Well, the New Testament surely is silent on the subject though, right?
Not quite. While it is not a book of law, per se, and while the New Testament, far from negating the Old, fulfills and completes it, and so the Testament isn’t rehashing every subject already addressed in the Old, it certainly has examples of the value God puts on children. There is one particular passage that I particularly love because of what it shows, by implication, of how God sees the unborn child.
Before that though, to show that the Old Testament is not negated by the new, a very direct statement by Jesus Himself should suffice. There are several similar statements and points made throughout the New Testament, but since you put the value higher on the “letters in red” (I don’t, because God spoke ALL of them) here’s what Jesus had to say:
Matthew 5:17-22
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire…
There is a lot to unpack there, but I think the point is made clearly enough for now.
So, my favorite passage regarding the pre-born baby in the New Testament:
Luke 1:39-45
In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”
This is the preamble to what most people know as the Magnificat. Mary is visiting her cousin Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, the prophesied forerunner of Jesus the Messiah. Jesus is in Mary’s womb. John is in Elizabeth’s womb. When the forerunner, John, hears the voice of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and knows he is in the presence of the pre-born Messiah, the pre-born John leaps for joy in the womb! This is, in fact, the context for Mary’s famous song. The song is a response to the actions, identities, and already active callings on two pre-born babies. That, in any reasonable mind looking at Scripture, should easily seal the deal.
You may not like what Scripture says about when life begins and what value God puts on it. You may not even honor or respect Scripture and its authority. But please be honest enough with the text to not try and make it devalue an innocent life the way you do. You say you looked and couldn't find anyting. You didn't look very hard then.
