Generational differences in perspective

[AlexBailey]

Sorry, but I have to go with SD on this. I see no sexuality in there, just some utterly age-appropriate flirting. For heaven’s sake, how old do kids have to be?

I don’t think there is anything overtly sexual about the song and I didn’t get the impression this thread is specifically about sexuality.

To me, the reaction of some posters here highlights the generational divide - that divide being the assumption that the girl should defer to the boy’s greater wisdom rather than rely on her own judgment.

(Edit)
Now that I think about it, the song could be seen as ironic given the fact that the boy was enamored by NAZIS.

I remember this song seeming romantic, being sung casually by my mother when she was falling in love with my older stepfather… never mind. Too much to unpack there.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Guy, come on...

It's the Sound of Music, so "telling you what to do" isn't exactly going to end with "learn to swallow and take it in the ass."

But the whole overall context is that her mother is dead, her father is emotionally distant and she's the eldest of a bunch of isolated children. She's the baron's daughter and he's the errand boy. There's definitely a sense that she's going to get herself into 'trouble' because she has no-one else to talk to and no access to other potential suitors. "Telling you what to do" might be a slightly controversial line (or not, dunno) for today's youth, but it's very much the whole point of the song.

(Julie Andrew's trainee nun isn't exactly the most worldly person to confide in...but it's a start)

 

[Boobytrap73]

Today's NY Times had a piece about how strangling during sex is becoming a "normal" expectation among teenagers with it being pushed by both boys and girls. Yes, I'm older but something with immediate life-threatening potential doesn't seem fun to me. That doesn't seem generational or at least it shouldn't be.

~BT73

 

[Voboy]

Yes, I use my PIN number at the ATM machine just like the rest of the hoi polloi...

This post enrages me. Lol.

 

[KeithD]

This post enrages me. Lol.

It confuses me. I may have a pin number, but I don't know what it is; I've only used an ATM machine once--and I was closely supervised that one time; but I certainly consider myself a club member of the hoi polloi.

 

[alohadave]

I’ve noticed when I watch Disney with a child I know, like 6 out of 10 of the movies have a “we’re so sorry” card at the beginning.

I guess that’s probably what society was like back then, or do I have that wrong?

Emily

Try finding Song of the South anywhere.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Try finding Song of the South anywhere.

Know it by rep only.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Today's NY Times had a piece about how strangling during sex is becoming a "normal" expectation among teenagers with it being pushed by both boys and girls. Yes, I'm older but something with immediate life-threatening potential doesn't seem fun to me. That doesn't seem generational or at least it shouldn't be.

Yes, that's scary. Clearly, none of them have heard of Michael Hutchence, from INXS.

 

[Treeview]

Yes, I'm older but something with immediate life-threatening potential doesn't seem fun to me.

~BT73

Some people of a certain age remember loosing Kwai Chang Caine to auto asphyxiation.

 

[jehoram]

The problem is, a lot of unfunny pricks who think they're George Carlin or Archie Bunker or Mel Brooks or Lenny fuckin' Bruce--

The thing about all these comics is that they were trying to defuse the words and show just how silly they are. When Dustin Hoffman prortrayed Bruce, there was a scene where he went to a table where a Black person was sitting, and said "Nigger." But then he vamped on the word, putting all sorts of silly spins on it until everybody was laughing, including the Black guy. She was demonstrating that it was just a word, and any associations you had with the word were the ones you brought in yourself.

And consider Mel Brooks making Blazing Saddles, a movie he confesses could never be made today. He used the word for shock value, demonstrating its absurdity when the pious townspeople got their knickers in a twist every time it was used. That movie was a favorite of my Black friends, because it defused the word.

Mel Brooks makes a comedy about Hitler and it goes over one way. But if Arnold Schwarzenegger made the same film it likely wouldn't have the same... acceptance.

I doubt if Arnie would have the courage. There's too much of the politician in him now.

You'll have to remember that any time a Nazi is displayed in a Mel Brooks movie, he's the subject of derision and scorn. That was totally intentional. Brooks said that his aim was to make Nazis so silly that nobody could take them seriously anymore. Anytime somebody showed up in a Nazi uniform, they'd be snickered at.

I think that was also John Landis's reason for the "I hate Nazis" scene in the Blues Brothers.

What do I think about the whole topic. Yes, things are different now, and it's all for the better. The only people who are really getting hurt are the ones who have trouble admitting that their world-view is out of date.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I don’t think there is anything overtly sexual about the song and I didn’t get the impression this thread is specifically about sexuality.

The lyrics:

Your life, little girl, is an empty page
That men will want to write on

You are 16 going on 17
Baby, it's time to think
Better beware
Be canny and careful
Baby, you're on the brink
You are 16 going on 17
Fellows will fall in line
Eager young lads
And roués and cads
Will offer you food and wine

Totally unprepared are you
To face a world of men
Timid and shy and scared are you
Of things beyond your ken
You need someone older and wiser
Telling you what to do

I am 17 going on 18
I'll take care of you

I am 16 going on 17
I know that I'm naïve
Fellows I meet may tell me I'm sweet
And willingly I believe
I am 16 going on 17
Innocent as a rose
Bachelors dandies, drinkers of brandies
What do I know of those?

Totally unprepared am I
To face a world of men
Timid and shy and scared am I
Of things beyond my ken
I need someone older and wiser
Telling me what to do
You are 17 going on 18
I'll depend on you

Roués and cads will offer you wine - but I'll tell you what to do and also look after you? It's blatantly 'Lots of guys want you, you want sex just like I do, I've done it before, I'll talk you through it, it'll be great'. Or as blatant as things got in the 80s.

I'm faintly traumatized from having to have learnt most of the SoM songs in school, repeatedly but when we did 16,17 when we were age 12 or so, as a change from fucking Do Re Mi for the fourth time, everyone assumed it was about sex and obvious flirting.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

One might keep in mind that the movie was intended as a family flick and one about a tumultuous period in 1938, when (for better or worse) sex rôles were very real. As for the scene in question, kids could enjoy it and, crucially for the song in question, anybody over 20 or so would laugh inwardly at the naïvité of two teenagers thinking they had it all figured out.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and not everything has to be subjected to over-the-shoulder 21st century analysis.

 

[SimonDoom]

Roués and cads will offer you wine - but I'll tell you what to do and also look after you? It's blatantly 'Lots of guys want you, you want sex just like I do, I've done it before, I'll talk you through it, it'll be great'. Or as blatant as things got in the 80s.

80s? The Broadway show premiered in 1959. The movie premiered in 1965. It was the most popular movie of the year.

And of course the setting is 1938 Austria, so it would have been much more sexually innocent--on the surface, anyway--than the 1960s.

It's fascinating to me how squicked people are in this forum at the idea that a 16 year old girl would think of herself as on the cusp of her sexual bloom, and that this would be an overwhelming part of her consciousness, and would influence the way she would interact with a boy one year older, who, obviously, also would have sex on his mind. Did some people just skip their teen years? I sure didn't. To me, this song and scene deal with something completely obvious and real in a way that's playful and light-hearted, but also poignant. I think it's sad if people see it as cringy.

 

[dmallord]

Interesting how people are so willing to divulge personal stuff here. I take Sound of Music for what it is. Never put much thought into the underlying sexuality elements. Methinks some read too deeply into it.

I have a credit card I use as much as I can. I still carry cash from that old adage in the days when you couldn't use a credit card somewhere because they didn't take one. It helps sort out expenses by downloading the expenses for accounting purposes. I pay the bill in full each month, so the bank probably hates me, but then I'm a guy who has used the same bank for over sixty years. They recognize me by name when I walk in. I like that personal touch. Especially for an elderly fellow who doesn't get out much.

As to answering the other thirst for knowledge? The really elderly pretty much kept that stuff private, even the jokes.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Well, he was also a fucking Nazi as well! What a truly Dumb Bitch.

??? In the song, the boyfriend is almost literally saying, "Let me do you before those old codgers get to you because I'm older and wiser than you are," when in fact they're both under eighteen. And she's buying it.

 

[desecration]

It's fascinating to me how squicked people are in this forum at the idea that a 16 year old girl would think of herself as on the cusp of her sexual bloom, and that this would be an overwhelming part of her consciousness, and would influence the way she would interact with a boy one year older, who, obviously, also would have sex on his mind.

If you fall in love at sixteen, get engaged at seventeen, and get married at eighteen, you can have a huge family and still be free in your forties. This was something done in Europe at the time. I hope it still is.

 

[AlexBailey]

Guy, come on...

It's the Sound of Music, so "telling you what to do" isn't exactly going to end with "learn to swallow and take it in the ass."

But the whole overall context is that her mother is dead, her father is emotionally distant and she's the eldest of a bunch of isolated children. She's the baronesses daughter and he's the errand boy. There's definitely a sense that she's going to get herself into 'trouble' because she has no-one else to turn to. "Telling you what to do" might be a slightly controversial line (or not, dunno) for today's youth, but it's very much the whole point of the song.

(Julie Andrew's trainee nun isn't exactly the best person to confide in...but it's a start)

That whole “telling me what to do” line being offensive was first brought to my attention in the early nineties by my girlfriend and our lesbian crew. Feminism at its finest. I can’t say I disagree.

Are young women inherently more clueless than young men? Does the song set a good example for young women and girls to follow?

Sure it’s a period piece. Yes it is sweet, romantic, and relatable for many people.

My point is that having a young girl agreeing that she needs to defer to the wisdom of a young boy (who happens to be a NAZI) is more likely to be seen as cringy (for good reason) by a younger contemporary audience than by those of an older generation.

“Wheee!”

 

[desecration]

I mean... Sound of Music appreciation is sort of limited to the Boomer generation.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Is it a start though? I can imagine how that conversation will go. "Sex, you're asking me, a novice, about sex. Oh, my goodness, child, say five Hale Marys and take cold showers."

Guy, come on...

It's the Sound of Music, so "telling you what to do" isn't exactly going to end with "learn to swallow and take it in the ass."

But the whole overall context is that her mother is dead, her father is emotionally distant and she's the eldest of a bunch of isolated children. She's the baron's daughter and he's the errand boy. There's definitely a sense that she's going to get herself into 'trouble' because she has no-one else to talk to and no access to other potential suitors. "Telling you what to do" might be a slightly controversial line (or not, dunno) for today's youth, but it's very much the whole point of the song.

(Julie Andrew's trainee nun isn't exactly the most worldly person to confide in...but it's a start)

 

[TheRedChamber]

Is it a start though? I can imagine how that conversation will go. "Sex, you're asking me, a novice, about sex. Oh, my goodness, child, say five Hale Marys and take cold
showers."

Point:
You should sleep with me.

Counter-Point:
Maybe you shouldn't sleep with him. Maybe I should sleep with your father.

See. A highly productive dialectic for a young enquiring mind.

Actually quick review of the synopsis suggests that while Maria discovers Lisle climbing back through her window after dark and promises not to tell on her, they don't actually discuss gentleman.

 

[KeithD]

I think it's sad if people see it as cringy.

I don't see it as cringy. But I definitely see it as teenage absorption with sex and as a commentary on how threatening following extremist political ideology can be. That song is about a seventeen-year-old guy trying to sexually seduce a sixteen-year-old girl and the girl showing she's ripe for the idea. The kicker for the movie is that he is hit with having to make a choice between developing something with the girl and keeping with his junior Nazi program/demands and fingering her family for treason, and he chooses the junior Nazi program. The point being made is how strong the political hold and insidiousness was at the time in Austria.

I was in residence in Germany for three years ten years after the war ended and we had German friends--some who had been pretty high in the German hierarchy during the war. Ten years later and they were still analyzing and guilt ridden over what they had participated in and been willfully blind to. It apparently was much different from their feelings after having lost WWI. After that, they had legitimate reasons for railing against their loss and the screws to which they were put after the war. Other than the top echelons, the mood for Germans after WWII was one of rehabilitation, which brought more "Why did we?" introspection out of individual Germans. I see the thread in SOM of the teenagers as a framing of just how deep and insidious the Nazi influence was then--even in Austria. If I wanted to delve deeper into this device, I'd look for what was happening in the country and globally at the time the play was being written to see if the message was about something brewing there concerning the siren call to extremism. That thread most definitely applies to current national politics in the United States. Choosing extremist politics over, as a bundle of teenage raging hormones, getting the girl into bed.

 

[Voboy]

The kicker for the movie is that he is hit with having to make a choice between developing something with the girl and keeping with his junior Nazi program/demands and fingering her family for treason, and he chooses the junior Nazi program.

"Hmm. Which kind of fingering would I rather do...?"

 

[desecration]

Yes, that's scary. Clearly, none of them have heard of Michael Hutchence, from INXS.

Didn't one of the Carradines allegedly go out this way, if it was not a hit?

 

[SimonDoom]

I mean... Sound of Music appreciation is sort of limited to the Boomer generation.

Nonsense. The musical premiered in 1959, when the oldest of the Boomers were only 14, so obviously pre-Boomers appreciated it or it would not have been successful. Boomers obviously could not have fueled its success. The musical and movie continued to have enduring appeal because of the great music and timeless appeal of its story, so obviously post-Boomers liked it too.

The thing that sticks so much in my craw is the unquestioned assumption that a generation cannot appreciate a work of art from the past if that work's politics and values do not exactly match that of the current generation. Speaking for myself and my generation, I've never been that way and I could not disagree more. I think it's a small-minded and anti-artistic way of thinking. It is a peculiarity of the contemporary way of thinking to think this way and not to question whether there is another way of thinking. If we open our minds we can all appreciate works of art from the past even though the values of those works are not identical to our own.

Plus, you cannot assume that because I DO appreciate Sound of Music and think that particular song is a charming and somewhat poignant song, I endorse Rolf's point of view and message. That's completely wrong.

 

[desecration]

Plus, you cannot assume that because I DO appreciate Sound of Music and think that particular song is a charming and somewhat poignant song, I endorse Rolf's point of view and message.

I agree there. However, musicals are a Boomer thing generally and at least in my experience, generations afterward hated them.