Gentleman or not?

[Ebonyfire]

Hands in the lap...

could be interpreted as invisible restraint (or bondage). Closed legs could be perceived as bondage too.

Eb

 

[poppy1963]

Even though the question wasn't aimed at me, I had to comment. The seduction dance between men and women just simply fascinates to me.

Papillon

Oh no...the discussion is GOOD! I just wanted to clarify I wasn't trying to elicit a "standardized" definition...but one specifically from St_George in his opinion.

I love hearing everyone's opinions! I just wanted to clarify the intent of my question to him. But it is a question also posed to everyone here!

Am I rambling now? hee hee

 

[Ebonyfire]

Think of my replies as replies to, not aimed at.

Life is too short to think otherwise.

 

[poppy1963]

Do you think it is a control thing? That is what I always thought. After all, we know historically men wore elaborate makeup than women. And some adventurous women could and did adopt the dress of men in polite society. Didn't Queen Elizabeth I do it? There are others I am sure.

Eb

Could be...or could be an honest communication between two people about what they need to feel valued and repsected in public. It seems to me that is kind of on a continuum from D/s - Vanilla worlds? Not sure there...just an impression.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Could be...or could be an honest communication between two people about what they need to feel valued and repsected in public. It seems to me that is kind of on a continuum from D/s - Vanilla worlds? Not sure there...just an impression.

See I have found the two worlds are not that far apart.

Eb

 

[blueskies]

On the contrary! To me, chivalry is very much associated with domination. It makes perfect sense to have a man open the door for me and help me put on my coat and still remain very much the dominant one. In fact, it makes me feel more submissive towards a man if he’s a gentleman (at least in public ) as it makes me feel protected and cared for, which are things I need when in a relationship with a man. I also found erotic the idea that the same man who’s opening the door for me would later be giving me a sound spanking.

So True!

What do you think of chivalry in your own relationship?

I don't have it.

Is it something you need?

It isn't a constant need but would change alot of things in my relationship.

Does it influence how you view your partner?

YES

Do you consider a chivalrous man to be less dominant then one who’s not?

Never

Papillon

 

[papilllon]

Oh no...the discussion is GOOD! I just wanted to clarify I wasn't trying to elicit a "standardized" definition...but one specifically from St_George in his opinion.

I love hearing everyone's opinions! I just wanted to clarify the intent of my question to him. But it is a question also posed to everyone here!

Am I rambling now? hee hee

Nope. Not rambling at all.

I'm curious about St-George's answer as well.

 

[poppy1963]

See I have found the two worlds are not that far apart.

Eb

Well...I made such a comment just yesterday...as I learn...I wonder about that.

 

[JMohegan]

I find that bad mannered, rude and chivalry cuts across submissives, dominant, and vanilla men. If the man is rude and bad mannered he will be that way regardless of whether he is traditional or D/s. If he is chivalrous he will be regardless of whether he is traditional or D/s. Being in this or any other lifestyle does not change anyones fundamental core. People do not change who they really are.

I agree with this completely.

Manners, like a sense of humor, are characteristics determining whether two people are compatible in a general sense.

This issue has nothing to do with D/s unless one partner uses his or her power to alter the behavior of the other.

Some women do get offended though when a man opens the door for them so maybe this is why many men have just given up...

Over the years, I've had various encounters such as the following.

After taking a woman out to dinner, I walk to my car in the parking lot and open the passenger side door. Holding it open, I wait for her to get in. She stands there, tilts her chin up, and launches into the party line.

"That's actually a bit demeaning. It implies I am helpless, which of course I'm not. Do you hold the door for your guy friends?" Etc.

My response would be to wait calmly until the end of the rant, and then say: "You can get in my car gracefully, while I hold the door for you, or I'll give you five bucks to call a cab. Your choice."

I am 48 years old. In all my years of dating, I've had many encounters like this - especially in the late 70's, when there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion over gender roles and expectations.

But I've only ever had one woman do the equivalent of asking for that five bucks. And she called me to next day to apologize. LOL....

 

[papilllon]

I agree with this completely.

Manners, like a sense of humor, are characteristics determining whether two people are compatible in a general sense.

This issue has nothing to do with D/s unless one partner uses his or her power to alter the behavior of the other.

Over the years, I've had various encounters such as the following.

After taking a woman out to dinner, I walk to my car in the parking lot and open the passenger side door. Holding it open, I wait for her to get in. She stands there, tilts her chin up, and launches into the party line.

"That's actually a bit demeaning. It implies I am helpless, which of course I'm not. Do you hold the door for your guy friends?" Etc.

My response would be to wait calmly until the end of the rant, and then say: "You can get in my car gracefully, while I hold the door for you, or I'll give you five bucks to call a cab. Your choice."

I am 48 years old. In all my years of dating, I've had many encounters like this - especially in the late 70's, when there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion over gender roles and expectations.

But I've only ever had one woman do the equivalent of asking for that five bucks. And she called me to next day to apologize. LOL....

LOL I didn't think a woman would go as far as taking the cab...lol.

My... I guess I'll never get why some women find chivalry offensive. I'd describe it as being charming rather than offensive and I get annoyed by the lack of chivalry, not the other way around.

 

[CutieMouse]

After taking a woman out to dinner, I walk to my car in the parking lot and open the passenger side door. Holding it open, I wait for her to get in. She stands there, tilts her chin up, and launches into the party line.

"That's actually a bit demeaning. It implies I am helpless, which of course I'm not. Do you hold the door for your guy friends?" Etc.

My response would be to wait calmly until the end of the rant, and then say: "You can get in my car gracefully, while I hold the door for you, or I'll give you five bucks to call a cab. Your choice."

I am 48 years old. In all my years of dating, I've had many encounters like this - especially in the late 70's, when there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion over gender roles and expectations.

But I've only ever had one woman do the equivalent of asking for that five bucks. And she called me to next day to apologize. LOL....

Interesting semi-related, but mostly hijack sort of comment...

I've noticed when I run errands in jeans, Docs, and a sweater, I rarely have doors held open for me.

When I run errands dressed to the hilt in vintage- corset, stockings, dress, heels, matching purse, blahblahblah (very prim and proper)... men either hurry ahead to hold the door, or wait at the door, to keep it open for me. And it isn't just older gentlemen- that includes high school aged kids with baggy pants and all the bling bling crap. It's kind of interesting on a sociological level...

I was raised in a household where it was "demeaning" for a man to hold a door for a woman, so I have to work at being comfortable with it... I'm getting better- if I'm properly dressed, I just sort of expect it to happen, so it does, and I simply smile and say thank you. If it doesn't happen, I open my own door.

 

[Soumis]

I tend to expect chivalry from men without being in a sexual relationship, but I'm lucky that many of my male friends are extremly old fashioned, gentlemanly types. I don't mean that I would be offended if a man did not open a door for me, or walk on the outside of the pavement, but because I am used to it, I would probably notice the ommission.

Perhaps it is the people I have grown up around who are responsible, but I find chivalry one of the biggest turn ons, and would probably not be attracted to a man who wasn't.

I have to agree with nymphee here. I'm used to little acts of chivalry in my day to day life. I went to a university where guys still hold doors open for girls and give up their seats on the bus (and I only graduated a few months ago). Now that I'm home and working in public education the contrast is a bit jarring at times.

I also have to agree that it's an incredible turn on. Open the door for me and I'll lower my eyes after saying thank you. Holding a car door, well, that just makes me think of restraint and from there bondage. The melter though, a guiding hand at the small of my back and I'm wondering how Dominant he can be in other areas...

I find it interesting that the opposite seems to work for me in some ways as well. The rare times when I've held a door open for a guy and felt anything particular about it, I felt submissive.

 

[JMohegan]

LOL I didn't think a woman would go as far as taking the cab...lol.

My... I guess I'll never get why some women find chivalry offensive.

The time and place are important to keep in mind. Liberal university and cosmopolitan environments in the 70s.

I knew guys who would have responded to the "It's demeaning..." speech by apologizing profusely, stepping away from the door immediately, and updating their feminist credentials on the spot.

I knew other guys who would have stood there and argued the issue.

Most guys, however, would have just said, "Yeah, sure, whatever," and walked on over to the driver's side of the car.

The commonly used term for guys who acted like me was: "Male chauvinist pig."

 

[JMohegan]

Interesting semi-related, but mostly hijack sort of comment...

I've noticed when I run errands in jeans, Docs, and a sweater, I rarely have doors held open for me.

When I run errands dressed to the hilt in vintage- corset, stockings, dress, heels, matching purse, blahblahblah (very prim and proper)... men either hurry ahead to hold the door, or wait at the door, to keep it open for me. And it isn't just older gentlemen- that includes high school aged kids with baggy pants and all the bling bling crap. It's kind of interesting on a sociological level...

I was raised in a household where it was "demeaning" for a man to hold a door for a woman, so I have to work at being comfortable with it... I'm getting better- if I'm properly dressed, I just sort of expect it to happen, so it does, and I simply smile and say thank you. If it doesn't happen, I open my own door.

Yes, that is an interesting sociological observation.

It seems logical to me that guys of all ages make assumptions about female preferences based on dress, demeanor, etc.

The interesting question here, though, is whether they are responding to your perceived preference or whether the behavior reflects their preferences with regard to well-dressed women.

 

[papilllon]

The time and place are important to keep in mind. Liberal university and cosmopolitan environments in the 70s.

I knew guys who would have responded to the "It's demeaning..." speech by apologizing profusely, stepping away from the door immediately, and updating their feminist credentials on the spot.

I knew other guys who would have stood there and argued the issue.

Most guys, however, would have just said, "Yeah, sure, whatever," and walked on over to the driver's side of the car.

The commonly used term for guys who acted like me was: "Male chauvinist pig."

And today, what type of reactions do women (other than your lady) have when you open a door or do something like that? Do you still get offended looks? Have you seen that type of reaction from younger women as well?

 

[SpectreT]

The time and place are important to keep in mind. Liberal university and cosmopolitan environments in the 70s.

I knew guys who would have responded to the "It's demeaning..." speech by apologizing profusely, stepping away from the door immediately, and updating their feminist credentials on the spot.

I knew other guys who would have stood there and argued the issue.

Most guys, however, would have just said, "Yeah, sure, whatever," and walked on over to the driver's side of the car.

The commonly used term for guys who acted like me was: "Male chauvinist pig."

Add in an eyeroll and a shrug, and I'd probably fall into the "Whatever." crowd, most of the time. I'm not going to invest a lot of argument if they want to percieve common courtesy as an insult; obviously there's a disconnect there which would make me wonder about any possibility of finding common ground.

Interesting semi-related, but mostly hijack sort of comment...

I've noticed when I run errands in jeans, Docs, and a sweater, I rarely have doors held open for me.

When I run errands dressed to the hilt in vintage- corset, stockings, dress, heels, matching purse, blahblahblah (very prim and proper)... men either hurry ahead to hold the door, or wait at the door, to keep it open for me. And it isn't just older gentlemen- that includes high school aged kids with baggy pants and all the bling bling crap. It's kind of interesting on a sociological level...

I was raised in a household where it was "demeaning" for a man to hold a door for a woman, so I have to work at being comfortable with it... I'm getting better- if I'm properly dressed, I just sort of expect it to happen, so it does, and I simply smile and say thank you. If it doesn't happen, I open my own door.

That is interesting. As a guy who sprints to get doors for ladies, I now have to analyze whether my efforts are measurably different for differently dressed ladies. I do know I'd be expecting some flack from someone in Docs and jeans, and less flack from someone in full costume, as it were.

It's also interesting that evidently the manners are still being taught - even if they're being selectively applied...

 

[JMohegan]

And today, what type of reactions do women (other than your lady) have when you open a door or do something like that? Do you still get offended looks? Have you seen that type of reaction from younger women as well?

In a business environment, whoever reaches the door first (male or female) generally holds it open for those who follow. It is extremely rare for someone to make an issue of this type of thing on a gender basis. I walk through doors held open by women and say "thank you" as a matter of common courtesy. They return the favor.

The same thing usually holds true in a non-business, non-dating environment in my corner of the world in 2006. Occasionally I get a nasty look or remark when holding the door for a stranger, in which case I would quickly and quietly step away from the door. I have no point to make with strangers, and I simply don't care.

 

[JMohegan]

Add in an eyeroll and a shrug, and I'd probably fall into the "Whatever." crowd, most of the time. I'm not going to invest a lot of argument if they want to percieve common courtesy as an insult; obviously there's a disconnect there which would make me wonder about any possibility of finding common ground.

I'm guessing that you had not come of age yet in the 70's.

So many gestures that I had been raised to consider as "common courtesy" came to be regarded as symptomatic of the patriarchal society oppressing women. And taken as a whole, the old standards of polite society really did reflect an attitude that women should be demure and deferential, while men should be protective and in charge.

Holding the door open for someone, or allowing it to be held for you, came to be interpreted as a political gesture. It was viewed as overtly insulting by many, for quite some time.

My goal in taking a stand on the door issue was neither to insult nor to make a general political statement, but rather to make a point about control in my personal relationships.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

[mini hijack]

Interesting topic and I have enjoyed reading this thread. A combinationof door opening stories for some strange reason reminded me of a scene from Let Them Eat Cake where the Comtesse de Vache walks up to a closed door and starts very effeminately shaking her hand just in front of a door handle crying out 'why doesn't it open, why ...why...'. I do plan on trying this myself one of these days. It will be a joy watching people's reactions.

I'll add the Comtesse is so poorly skilled at self care she is unable to leave her bed without assistance. The beauty of that being is absolved of the murder of the Marquise de Frou Frou. Always a silver lining with French and Saunders.

[/cessation of hijack]

 

[SpectreT]

I'm guessing that you had not come of age yet in the 70's.

So many gestures that I had been raised to consider as "common courtesy" came to be regarded as symptomatic of the patriarchal society oppressing women. And taken as a whole, the old standards of polite society really did reflect an attitude that women should be demure and deferential, while men should be protective and in charge.

Holding the door open for someone, or allowing it to be held for you, came to be interpreted as a political gesture. It was viewed as overtly insulting by many, for quite some time.

My goal in taking a stand on the door issue was neither to insult nor to make a general political statement, but rather to make a point about control in my personal relationships.

Born in '71, so you're correct there. Grew up in a lower-middle class family in an old Italian suburb of a Central New York midsized city (named Syracuse), so activism was something that happened on TV, not in day to day life. I was raised with what I think of as late '40s, early '50s kind of mindset and home environment, and a lot of those "values" were drilled into me pretty early, which conflicted heavily with the messages coming from my teachers and the TV. Made a very confused boy, with all the machismo, gallantry and chivalry on one hand, and womens' lib on the other being big news all through my formative years. (Trust me, I was aware of these things well before my tenth birthday)

 

[poppy1963]

Well...I remember the effects of all that a bit...though I was just growing up.

June Cleaver/Donna Reed etc...were still revered in our moms...then there were Janis Joplin/Charlie's Angels...alternatives. Very confusing times for women as well. I sure didn't want to end up in house dresses and aprons all day (that was growing to be an intolerable image) nor did I feel comfortable as the more rebellious/self-actualizing models.

Gawdddddddd....who knew how to act? I didn't want to look weak and dependent but I sure didn't feel strong and confident. I chose a neurotic independent lifestyle and stuck with it.....lol.

 

[Netzach]

Polite by who's standards? that is what I mean. It is also impolite to assume that all people's standards are the same.

The Standards gestapo cracks me up.

I like to take up space on the train, legs wiiiide

(cue Dennis Miller singing the "I'm an asshole" song)

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

I like to take up space on the train, legs wiiiide

(cue Dennis Miller singing the "I'm an asshole" song)

I had a small rear bumper accident driving on a roundabout while singing along with a chorus of that song.

Ohh the shame......

 

[Netzach]

Huh.

I'm Domme. Feminist. Past the bullshit we're fed, I like to think at least somewhat. But I'd never give a guy shit for opening a car door for me, nor think of it submissive to thank him and slide in.

I hold doors for old ladies, ladies with kids, ladies with packages and guys with packages, am I a gent?

 

[Netzach]

I had a small rear bumper accident driving on a roundabout while singing along with a chorus of that song.

Ohh the shame......

LMAO how apropos.