Gentleman or not?

[@}-}rebecca----]

LMAO how apropos.

ohhhh yes.....the music was ALSO loud enough to be heard in other vehicles

lmaoooooo

Ohhhhhhh the shame

 

[neonflux]

Huh.

I'm Domme. Feminist. Past the bullshit we're fed, I like to think at least somewhat. But I'd never give a guy shit for opening a car door for me, nor think of it submissive to thank him and slide in.

I hold doors for old ladies, ladies with kids, ladies with packages and guys with packages, am I a gent?

Except for the fact that I'm switch, you finally wrote what I've been thinking of stating, but did it much more succinctly...

Neon

 

[Shankara20]

I have been giving this thread much thought while working on other things. Today, while self-medicating with coffee, I came to add my words of wisdom only to find at the point would be redundant. So here is my short version - please let gender base chivalry go quickly into the night to die. Treat people of all the many genders with respect and tenderness.

Now I think I'll go up my meds....

 

[JMohegan]

Born in '71, so you're correct there. Grew up in a lower-middle class family in an old Italian suburb of a Central New York midsized city (named Syracuse), so activism was something that happened on TV, not in day to day life. I was raised with what I think of as late '40s, early '50s kind of mindset and home environment, and a lot of those "values" were drilled into me pretty early, which conflicted heavily with the messages coming from my teachers and the TV. Made a very confused boy, with all the machismo, gallantry and chivalry on one hand, and womens' lib on the other being big news all through my formative years. (Trust me, I was aware of these things well before my tenth birthday)

I believe you, and this helps me understand your perspective.

My perspective developed on liberal East Coast high school, college, and grad school campuses.... where all that "big news" was being played out.

I could see the legitimacy of the big picture message right away. Even as a cocky frat boy, I would go to the mat to support equality in education, employment, etc. The Equal Rights Amendment always seemed like a no-brainer to me, as did equal funding for sports, scholarships, etc.

But personal relationships were a different story. Pretty much from day one, I never had patience with the apparent confusion of females and the mixed messages they put forth.

I watched so many guys get jerked around by the type of woman who would one day get pissed off over the door holding issue, and the next day get pissed off if the guy didn't offer his jacket to her when she was cold. And don't even get me started on the subject of who's paying for dinner.

As an adolescent, I reacted to all this confusion by identifying my own primary goal at the time (getting laid) and setting my own rules for what would and would not happen on a date with me. Anyone who didn't like it could just go home.

 

[JMohegan]

Huh.

I'm Domme. Feminist. Past the bullshit we're fed, I like to think at least somewhat. But I'd never give a guy shit for opening a car door for me, nor think of it submissive to thank him and slide in.

I hold doors for old ladies, ladies with kids, ladies with packages and guys with packages, am I a gent?

No, not a gent. Just a considerate person who helps those in need of assistance.

And that was the point. The reason why every doorway suddenly developed political significance.

In my part of the world.....

Old rules: A gentleman holds a door for a lady, whether they are dating or not. She will not reach for the door, but will pause and wait patiently for him to open it.

70's: A guy who holds the door open for a woman is an MCP. A woman who lets him do this has no self-respect. "It's demeaning. I don't need your help." That really sums up the attitude of many at the time.

Current expectations for polite behavior: Whoever reaches the door first holds it open for those who follow. Those in need of help (due to age, packages, kids, whatever) should be given it. Gender irrelevant, unless one is on a date with someone like me.

 

[papilllon]

I have been giving this thread much thought while working on other things. Today, while self-medicating with coffee, I came to add my words of wisdom only to find at the point would be redundant. So here is my short version - please let gender base chivalry go quickly into the night to die. Treat people of all the many genders with respect and tenderness.

Now I think I'll go up my meds....

I agree with you that we should all show respect to people, whatever their gender. When I go out, I do open doors for men and women alike if I'm the one there first. That's just being polite and nice.

As a woman though, when I'm dating a man, I can't help but melt when He,s being chivalrous. It's not really a matter of what is "right" or "wrong" but just the pleasure of feeling special. Honestly, I can't really explain why it's such an important issue for me because I certainly wasn't raised in an environnement where men were specially chivalrous.

Probably it's not a Dominant characteristic to be chivalrous but just something I'm looking for in a Dominant. I have just always associated chivalrous to old-fashioned and old-fashioned to a relationship where the man is dominant. Now I'm realizing that this assumption is not exactly right... But still, the way it makes me feel... I just love it!

 

[Shankara20]

Probably it's not a Dominant characteristic to be chivalrous but just something I'm looking for in a Dominant.

I have made a rather sweeping statement in my post. Sorry for that. I was speaking of being in the general population where power dynamics are not negotiated, but rather imposed (more-or-less). In general chivalry supposes a male dominance. A whole bunch of problems follow from that supposition, one that some take to the point of seeing that they "own" "their" females - and for some that can be taken so far as to lead to abuse and violence. (There are many more factors that contribute to domestic violence that I am not addressing here as this is not the forum)

I would hope that within a BDSM relationship the power dynamic is discussed and negotiated and limits set and both parties have given full consent that chivalry is then a part of their roll play.

I find being chivalrous hot. I enjoy it and I see that I am using it as acts of power and therefor dominance. And I try as best I can to contain it to defined relationships and not impose it on others without their consent. It is tricky at best.

 

[Quint]

...........

 

[papilllon]

OT: does anyone else notice the social tendency of people to pile up behind one open door when there is a perfectly good, unused door right beside it? I guess that's the modern twist on rebecca's tale.

LOL

I call it the "sheep behavior syndrom"...

 

[papilllon]

I have made a rather sweeping statement in my post. Sorry for that. I was speaking of being in the general population where power dynamics are not negotiated, but rather imposed (more-or-less). In general chivalry supposes a male dominance. A whole bunch of problems follow from that supposition, one that some take to the point of seeing that they "own" "their" females - and for some that can be taken so far as to lead to abuse and violence. (There are many more factors that contribute to domestic violence that I am not addressing here as this is not the forum)

I would hope that within a BDSM relationship the power dynamic is discussed and negotiated and limits set and both parties have given full consent that chivalry is then a part of their roll play.

I find being chivalrous hot. I enjoy it and I see that I am using it as acts of power and therefor dominance. And I try as best I can to contain it to defined relationships and not impose it on others without their consent. It is tricky at best.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean... Do you consider that chivalry can lead to abuse? If so, how would someone use chivalry to this end?

Thank you.

 

[Shankara20]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean... Do you consider that chivalry can lead to abuse? If so, how would someone use chivalry to this end?

Thank you.

It is way more subtle than that. In general chivalry is not used directly as a tool by an individual (although it might be part of a package of deception a perpetrator might use), it is just one more message that culture sends that females are not vested that same way as males. In some that "less than" message can lead to rationalizing the "right" to use abusive behavior. Chivalry was developed as a code of conduct to protect those unable to protect themselves - the "less than".

 

[JMohegan]

I have made a rather sweeping statement in my post. Sorry for that. I was speaking of being in the general population where power dynamics are not negotiated, but rather imposed (more-or-less). In general chivalry supposes a male dominance. A whole bunch of problems follow from that supposition, one that some take to the point of seeing that they "own" "their" females - and for some that can be taken so far as to lead to abuse and violence. (There are many more factors that contribute to domestic violence that I am not addressing here as this is not the forum)

I would hope that within a BDSM relationship the power dynamic is discussed and negotiated and limits set and both parties have given full consent that chivalry is then a part of their roll play.

I find being chivalrous hot. I enjoy it and I see that I am using it as acts of power and therefor dominance. And I try as best I can to contain it to defined relationships and not impose it on others without their consent. It is tricky at best.

I don't see this as role play. And I have absolutely no interest in extensive discussions on the subject of who's holding the door.

This is ground that would be covered on a first date with me. Part of the getting-to-know-you phase rather than the stage much farther down the road, when complex negotiations would be appropriate.

The point is that I'm gonna behave the way I want to behave on a date. And any potential partner would either need Papillon's preference for old-style manners or a willingness to adapt in order to be with me.

Her choice, to stay or go. No negotiations necessary.

 

[Shankara20]

I don't see this as role play. And I have absolutely no interest in extensive discussions on the subject of who's holding the door.

This is ground that would be covered on a first date with me. Part of the getting-to-know-you phase rather than the stage much farther down the road, when complex negotiations would be appropriate.

The point is that I'm gonna behave the way I want to behave on a date. And any potential partner would either need Papillon's preference for old-style manners or a willingness to adapt in order to be with me.

Her choice, to stay or go. No negotiations necessary.

I understand. I was using chivalry in a larger discussion beyond the door issue that I thing you did a great job outlining, and happen to agree with. My post was not in direct comment to yours but to the general question being discussed. Sorry if I did not clarify that I was not connecting directly to door opening.

Acs that fit the whole chivalry model such as who should walk close to the street and who close to the building can be part of a roll-play / act-of-conduct people play within their own relationships - hopeful after some discussion as opposed to some way of acting set by under-the-serface social expectations. I think I am stating an agreement with your point of view here, that is my intention at least.

 

[St_George]

Polite by who's standards? that is what I mean. It is also impolite to assume that all people's standards are the same.

The Standards gestapo cracks me up.

I suggest that a gentleman or lady would asses the situation to the best of their abilities and behave accordingly. For example I would not dream of holding the door for a woman who I knew to be offended by such an act. The definition of gentlemanly has changed very little over time because they were the ones who invented the rules in the first place, whereas until recently women were expected to behave according to a set of rules set out by men . Since women threw off this yoke they have been in a position to make their own rules, with the result that different women have a different idea of what constitutes lady-like.

I am a traditionalist, so my own opinion of what lady-like means is somewhat old fashioned. I do not, however, expect anyone to conform to my opinion, indeed it would be most un-gentlemanly of me to force my opinions upon anyone. As a traditional type of chap I do find the behaviour of some young women today unattractive, but I do not deny their right to behave in that way, or in what ever way they please.

While what I consider to be lady-like may be construed as repression of sexuality, I believe that much of what I consider to be gentlemanly is much the same. Simple things such as gently kissing a lady's hand, can be seen as 'repressed' frantic sex. Indeed, the Victorian standard of sexual repression was such that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle confesses to having 'discharded into his underclothing' the first time he kissed his second wife. Another example would be that it is cirtainly ungentlemanly to be promiscuous, despite man's natural urges in that direction.

I do expect my sub to comport her self with class in public, and I do find it extremely sexy, although the turn on comes not from the implied repression of her sexuality, but, as Nymphée has already suggested, from the delicious juxtaposition that there is between our public and private lives.

I hope that goes a little towards answering your question, although my brain is a little on the useless side today!

 

[poppy1963]

Huh.

I'm Domme. Feminist. Past the bullshit we're fed, I like to think at least somewhat. But I'd never give a guy shit for opening a car door for me, nor think of it submissive to thank him and slide in.

I hold doors for old ladies, ladies with kids, ladies with packages and guys with packages, am I a gent?

You are so right in all this!

 

[ownedsubgal]

It is way more subtle than that. In general chivalry is not used directly as a tool by an individual (although it might be part of a package of deception a perpetrator might use), it is just one more message that culture sends that females are not vested that same way as males. In some that "less than" message can lead to rationalizing the "right" to use abusive behavior. Chivalry was developed as a code of conduct to protect those unable to protect themselves - the "less than".

this is actually why i've always considered chivalry to be a dominant characteristic, and why i've always appreciated/taken comfort in it. because i do tend to think of myself as "less than" a male, simply because i am a female. not less valuable or less intelligent, but certainly weaker, less powerful, etc. i tend to view men in general as natural protectors. yes it's totally un-PC to say so, and yes i realize everyone doesn't fit those molds, but *shrugs* there ya go.

so yes i love it when a man pulls out my chair for me (telling me where i am to sit), opens the door for me (telling me where to go), walks on the street side of the sidewalk (protecting me from the big bad world), guides me by placing a hand on the small of my back (simultaneously steering me in the direction he wants me to go, and telling everyone around that i am his), or orders for me in a restaurant (telling me what to eat). even the most vanilla, gender equality pushing, politically correct man i know refuses to allow me or any female to pay his way in any situation. so as a submissive female, i find chivalry to be a very sexy characteristic in a man, as it kind of reminds me of my place.

 

[papilllon]

this is actually why i've always considered chivalry to be a dominant characteristic, and why i've always appreciated/taken comfort in it. because i do tend to think of myself as "less than" a male, simply because i am a female. not less valuable or less intelligent, but certainly weaker, less powerful, etc. i tend to view men in general as natural protectors. yes it's totally un-PC to say so, and yes i realize everyone doesn't fit those molds, but *shrugs* there ya go.

so yes i love it when a man pulls out my chair for me (telling me where i am to sit), opens the door for me (telling me where to go), walks on the street side of the sidewalk (protecting me from the big bad world), guides me by placing a hand on the small of my back (simultaneously steering me in the direction he wants me to go, and telling everyone around that i am his), or orders for me in a restaurant (telling me what to eat). even the most vanilla, gender equality pushing, politically correct man i know refuses to allow me or any female to pay his way in any situation. so as a submissive female, i find chivalry to be a very sexy characteristic in a man, as it kind of reminds me of my place.

You have just expressed in a far better way than I did so far what I was trying to express.

 

[Shankara20]

this is actually why i've always considered chivalry to be a dominant characteristic, and why i've always appreciated/taken comfort in it. because i do tend to think of myself as "less than" a male, simply because i am a female. not less valuable or less intelligent, but certainly weaker, less powerful, etc. i tend to view men in general as natural protectors. yes it's totally un-PC to say so, and yes i realize everyone doesn't fit those molds, but *shrugs* there ya go.

so yes i love it when a man pulls out my chair for me (telling me where i am to sit), opens the door for me (telling me where to go), walks on the street side of the sidewalk (protecting me from the big bad world), guides me by placing a hand on the small of my back (simultaneously steering me in the direction he wants me to go, and telling everyone around that i am his), or orders for me in a restaurant (telling me what to eat). even the most vanilla, gender equality pushing, politically correct man i know refuses to allow me or any female to pay his way in any situation. so as a submissive female, i find chivalry to be a very sexy characteristic in a man, as it kind of reminds me of my place.

thank you for sharing your point of view - it gives me much to ponder...

 

[FurryFury]

Interesting thread.

I find that even dressed in jeans, T shirt and tennies, gentlemen often open doors for me. I would never dream of berating someone for that, rather I smile and say thank you which is only polite. I also hold doors for others and they respond in kind. My husband is the sort who holds doors. I appreciate that. Of course I do live in the deep South where manners are programmed into one. I just don't see this as a BDSM issue though.

Fury

 

[Netzach]

this is actually why i've always considered chivalry to be a dominant characteristic, and why i've always appreciated/taken comfort in it. because i do tend to think of myself as "less than" a male, simply because i am a female. not less valuable or less intelligent, but certainly weaker, less powerful, etc. i tend to view men in general as natural protectors. yes it's totally un-PC to say so, and yes i realize everyone doesn't fit those molds, but *shrugs* there ya go.

so yes i love it when a man pulls out my chair for me (telling me where i am to sit), opens the door for me (telling me where to go), walks on the street side of the sidewalk (protecting me from the big bad world), guides me by placing a hand on the small of my back (simultaneously steering me in the direction he wants me to go, and telling everyone around that i am his), or orders for me in a restaurant (telling me what to eat). even the most vanilla, gender equality pushing, politically correct man i know refuses to allow me or any female to pay his way in any situation. so as a submissive female, i find chivalry to be a very sexy characteristic in a man, as it kind of reminds me of my place.

It really is up for interpretation isn't it? I love the same thing, for all the opposite reasons.

Waits to sit till I sit. Opens the door and does the heavy lifting because that's his place. Walks on the car side because he's expendable and I'm less so. Orders for me because he knows what I like and being sure my glass doesn't go empty while he's at it. FWIW this also outlines expected butch conduct, or whoever has the pants on or the tweedier of the skirts if you're both femmes.

When dating a really girly girl, I do get little thrills in taking her arm and walking the car side. Although, now that I think about it, a girly girl in service to me still has the menu/glass/chair duties once we've made relationship headway.

 

[JMohegan]

I understand. I was using chivalry in a larger discussion beyond the door issue that I thing you did a great job outlining, and happen to agree with. My post was not in direct comment to yours but to the general question being discussed. Sorry if I did not clarify that I was not connecting directly to door opening.

Acs that fit the whole chivalry model such as who should walk close to the street and who close to the building can be part of a roll-play / act-of-conduct people play within their own relationships - hopeful after some discussion as opposed to some way of acting set by under-the-serface social expectations. I think I am stating an agreement with your point of view here, that is my intention at least.

Thanks for clarifying, Shank.

In this context, I would consider "role play" or "act-of-conduct play" to be behavior that was not considered part of old-style manners in the US. For example, the BDSM cliché of sending the woman to the bathroom to remove her panties, or instructing her to walk a few steps behind the Dominant male. (I don't do either of those things; I'm simply throwing them out as examples.)

In contrast, everything that Ownedsubgal mentioned is on the list of traditional manners that I was taught as a young boy, and follow to this day in a personal relationship. The one exception is ordering food for a partner. I was taught to order her wine, but not her food.

I suppose if one had never been taught these rules of conduct, then adopting them for an evening's diversion would probably feel like role play. That makes sense to me.

I understand your general concern about societal expectations and cultural messages that "females are not vested that same way as males." But my opinion on this subject now is what it was 30 years ago. Give her a decent education and a good job, and everything else will fall into place.... no matter which part of the sidewalk she travels on.

And here we are, in 2006. Quint says: "I tend to be the door-opener. That goes for T, my close friends, and generally whatever strangers I see. I've just grown up considering it good manners but now I do it consciously as an act of quiet service." In contrast, Ownedsubgal says: "yes i love it when a man pulls out my chair for me (telling me where i am to sit)."

And I say: Surely now, after all these years, the time for ascribing political significance to simple gestures is over. Chairs can go back to just being chairs, doors just being doors, and a sidewalk just a path on the side of the road.

It really is up for interpretation isn't it?

Yes. Exactly.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Interesting thread.

I find that even dressed in jeans, T shirt and tennies, gentlemen often open doors for me. I would never dream of berating someone for that, rather I smile and say thank you which is only polite. I also hold doors for others and they respond in kind. My husband is the sort who holds doors. I appreciate that. Of course I do live in the deep South where manners are programmed into one. I just don't see this as a BDSM issue though.

Fury

I agree with you, Fury.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I tend to be the door-opener. That goes for T, my close friends, and generally whatever strangers I see. I've just grown up considering it good manners but now I do it consciously as an act of quiet service.

OT: does anyone else notice the social tendency of people to pile up behind one open door when there is a perfectly good, unused door right beside it? I guess that's the modern twist on rebecca's tale.

What I find really annoying and impolite is people who won't let others off the elevator before they try to push their way in. Jeeeze... let 'em off first.

 

[babiesmiles]

Interesting thread.

I find that even dressed in jeans, T shirt and tennies, gentlemen often open doors for me. I would never dream of berating someone for that, rather I smile and say thank you which is only polite. I also hold doors for others and they respond in kind. My husband is the sort who holds doors. I appreciate that. Of course I do live in the deep South where manners are programmed into one. I just don't see this as a BDSM issue though.

Fury

I agree with Fury.

I live in South of Europe and maybe on here things are a bit different and with less "drama" about simple everyday gestures .

It normally happens to me to have doors opened whatever I am dressed , but it also happens I hold a door open for a man after me because I got there first .

It happens a guy moves the chair for me while at dinner ( date or even in a work contest ) and it happens I serve him wine at table if casually the bottle is closer to me than to him .

It happens guys or even old men leave me the seat in buses , but if I see someone in need I happily leave them my seat , males or females .

I receive flowers and presents but I like to send flowers and make presents to guys as well .

At the end I like chevalery but I like grace , politeness and good manners the most .

 

[Ebonyfire]

LOL I didn't think a woman would go as far as taking the cab...lol.

My... I guess I'll never get why some women find chivalry offensive. I'd describe it as being charming rather than offensive and I get annoyed by the lack of chivalry, not the other way around.

It is a moot point in my case. I do not get in or out of a car without the man giving me his hand, unless I want to, and sometimes I do. If the man is a sub, I do not open any doors at all. I do not drive he does, he opens all the doors, and he does all the paying, unless I decide a little humiliation is in order. He still pays but he has to give me the money and I pay using his money.

I rarely bend at the waist, lol. If something drops he picks it up. The extent to which I expect chivalry depends on my mood, but as in most things, it depends on my mood.

Rank has it's privileges. My vanillas also know I am a Domme, and they almost never have to be told to open doors, etc.

Men like to treat women with respect, and I do not have any problem with that, after all who deserves it more?

Eb