Gentleman or not?

[MasterPhoenix]

When I was with My baby I lit 95% of her cigarettes for her, always held the door... Htat is just being a gentleman.

IMO, it reinforced My Domination of her.

 

[bashfull]

Yanno, my last lover had never had a guy who would open doors, light cigs, hold her hand as she would exit the car, etc. She got to where she would wait until I pulled out my lighter, opened the door, etc. Granted, she was in her early/mid 20's and had dated some pretty selfish guys. Most of her previous lovers would have sex, then she would have to go to the bathroom and finish herself off as it normally took her almost an hour to reach orgasm. Of course, when I found out it took her so long, I really got mischevious as I love to prolong the experience.

In bed, she was fully submissive. Loved me tying her down, telling her what to do. Demure eyes, waiting, pleading with me to allow her to touch herself, her legs spread, her wetness forming beads that would run down her thigh. Denying her orgasm till her muscles spasmed and begged for release. She followed instructions very well. She once told me that all her future boyfriends would have such a high standard to meet and that she finally understood what it meant to be treated with respect and adored outside the bedroom, and how to be treated in bed.

I consider myself a gentleman. I become demanding when pleasure is involved...but I must like, appreciate, and know the woman first before I will allow myself to give her that pleasure.

Perhaps another way of putting it is that I want to completely dominate her...her mind, her spirit, her affections, and her body. I want to know that she is MINE.

 

[papilllon]

Yanno, my last lover had never had a guy who would open doors, light cigs, hold her hand as she would exit the car, etc. She got to where she would wait until I pulled out my lighter, opened the door, etc. Granted, she was in her early/mid 20's and had dated some pretty selfish guys. Most of her previous lovers would have sex, then she would have to go to the bathroom and finish herself off as it normally took her almost an hour to reach orgasm. Of course, when I found out it took her so long, I really got mischevious as I love to prolong the experience.

In bed, she was fully submissive. Loved me tying her down, telling her what to do. Demure eyes, waiting, pleading with me to allow her to touch herself, her legs spread, her wetness forming beads that would run down her thigh. Denying her orgasm till her muscles spasmed and begged for release. She followed instructions very well. She once told me that all her future boyfriends would have such a high standard to meet and that she finally understood what it meant to be treated with respect and adored outside the bedroom, and how to be treated in bed.

I consider myself a gentleman. I become demanding when pleasure is involved...but I must like, appreciate, and know the woman first before I will allow myself to give her that pleasure.

Perhaps another way of putting it is that I want to completely dominate her...her mind, her spirit, her affections, and her body. I want to know that she is MINE.

A very sweet post.

 

[bashfull]

A very sweet post.

Thank you, darlin'. It is sincere.

 

[papilllon]

Thank you, darlin'. It is sincere.

I just wish more men would share your point of view. You should give classes or something.

 

[Netzach]

Most of her previous lovers would have sex, then she would have to go to the bathroom and finish herself off

This turns my crank, actually. Having someone do this while I roll over and sleep.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

This turns my crank, actually. Having someone do this while I roll over and sleep.

Now that is sadistic.... ROFLMAO

 

[bashfull]

I just wish more men would share your point of view. You should give classes or something.

Aww shucks, hon. I just believe in treating a lady like a lady is all.

 

[kat_or_kitten]

I consider myself a gentleman. I become demanding when pleasure is involved...but I must like, appreciate, and know the woman first before I will allow myself to give her that pleasure.

Perhaps another way of putting it is that I want to completely dominate her...her mind, her spirit, her affections, and her body. I want to know that she is MINE.

I like that. It's less subtle than the philosophy of TIH (as I understand it, anyway) but I like the combination of overt respect with D/s. Very nice.

 

[bashfull]

I like that. It's less subtle than the philosophy of TIH (as I understand it, anyway) but I like the combination of overt respect with D/s. Very nice.

Just my philosophy, darlin'. Thank you. Welcome to Lit, btw.

 

[3113]

This is actually a really good analogy to the door-holding rants I heard in the 70's.

Taken as a whole, they sounded to me like a cacophony of misandry in reaction to a simple gesture that was intended to be polite & respectful or at worst, benign.

I understand how this rough time and rough reaction left scars on a lot of undeserving men. But let's be fair to the women's movement here. Like all such movements, they go through an adolescent period, one of growing pains where they have to assert their independence...and like adolescents who say horrible things at such times, they're not always kind in doing so.

The black power movement was very much the same--it started by welcoming the help of whites, but at a certain point the argument was that black was beautiful and no-white's allowed even if all they want to do is help. Right or wrong, the movement had to go through that, it had to assert its individuality and independence.

I'm sorry if you were one of the guys wrongly caught in that period of the women's movement where it and its members were trying to assert individuality and adulthood. Let's keep in mind, however, that a lot of the chilvarous gestures discussed here indicated not something so sexy as D/s, but much more that of parent/child. And that's why a lot of these women ended up yelling at men for what ought to have been polite, benign gestures. Because the very men that would stand when they entered a room would turn right around and say, "Make some coffee while the boys and I discuss business." The boss that would open the door for his secretary before and after business hours would subject her to the worst sort of sexual harrassment during business hours.

Thus, the one behavior got linked to the other. The chilvary did not come across as respect so much as a way of pretending that they were showing respect. This is not to say that such women were right in expressing their personal outrage and the fact that buttons were being pushed. It is only to say that I think we need to forgive them for it. They over reacted, but they were reacting to years of hypocrisy, where treating a woman "like a queen" in unimportant ways (doors, chairs, etc.) was an excuse for treating her like a child in all important matters (making decisions).

I feel bad for gentlemen who were true gentelmen and got blasted not for their sins but those of others. I had an interesting encounter with one such gentleman recently: I was walking up to a Starbucks and an older man leapt to get the door for me. I hesitated and he, with some defense, informed me that some men were still "Gentlemen!" and held open doors for ladies. I think he expected me to object.

Truth was, I'd hesitated because he was older than me, and I wanted to grant him the right-of-way in respect to his age. That's the way *I* was brought up. I thanked him and entered first

 

[3113]

Why not What

Oh, and just to add, in answer to the original question: I don't think being a gentleman (or lady) has anything to do with D/s--unless, as suggested, it's been worked out before hand as part of the rules and roleplay.

The reason I wouldn't say that it instantly indicates domianace is because I know plenty of Dominatrixes who expect their male subs to do all the things a gentleman does. They expect him to have that lighter out for them when they place a cigarette between their lips, to help them in and out of the car, to open doors, draw back their chair and to stand when they enter a room.

Which, to me, simply reinforces what was pointed out before: it's all a matter of perspective and point of view as to whether these gestures are those of a Dominant or a submissive. WHY the person is doing it is more important than what they are doing.

 

[papilllon]

I understand how this rough time and rough reaction left scars on a lot of undeserving men. But let's be fair to the women's movement here. Like all such movements, they go through an adolescent period, one of growing pains where they have to assert their independence...and like adolescents who say horrible things at such times, they're not always kind in doing so.

The black power movement was very much the same--it started by welcoming the help of whites, but at a certain point the argument was that black was beautiful and no-white's allowed even if all they want to do is help. Right or wrong, the movement had to go through that, it had to assert its individuality and independence.

I'm sorry if you were one of the guys wrongly caught in that period of the women's movement where it and its members were trying to assert individuality and adulthood. Let's keep in mind, however, that a lot of the chilvarous gestures discussed here indicated not something so sexy as D/s, but much more that of parent/child. And that's why a lot of these women ended up yelling at men for what ought to have been polite, benign gestures. Because the very men that would stand when they entered a room would turn right around and say, "Make some coffee while the boys and I discuss business." The boss that would open the door for his secretary before and after business hours would subject her to the worst sort of sexual harrassment during business hours.

Thus, the one behavior got linked to the other. The chilvary did not come across as respect so much as a way of pretending that they were showing respect. This is not to say that such women were right in expressing their personal outrage and the fact that buttons were being pushed. It is only to say that I think we need to forgive them for it. They over reacted, but they were reacting to years of hypocrisy, where treating a woman "like a queen" in unimportant ways (doors, chairs, etc.) was an excuse for treating her like a child in all important matters (making decisions).

It's a very interesting point of view and one I hadn't consider before.

I was born into an era and in a country where women's rights are a given so the way I see things is very different than how the feminist pionneers probably did. But your post helps me understand better why some women are annoyed by old-fashioned gestures.

Papillon

 

[Ebonyfire]

Oh, and just to add, in answer to the original question: I don't think being a gentleman (or lady) has anything to do with D/s--unless, as suggested, it's been worked out before hand as part of the rules and roleplay.

The reason I wouldn't say that it instantly indicates domianace is because I know plenty of Dominatrixes who expect their male subs to do all the things a gentleman does. They expect him to have that lighter out for them when they place a cigarette between their lips, to help them in and out of the car, to open doors, draw back their chair and to stand when they enter a room.

Which, to me, simply reinforces what was pointed out before: it's all a matter of perspective and point of view as to whether these gestures are those of a Dominant or a submissive. WHY the person is doing it is more important than what they are doing.

What a wonderful post!

Eb

 

[JMohegan]

I'm sorry if you were one of the guys wrongly caught in that period of the women's movement where it and its members were trying to assert individuality and adulthood.

The Women's Movement owes me no apologies. It gave me a lifetime of female business associates, friends, and partners who are well-educated, well-rounded, and a fascinating counterpart to the players in the World of the Male.

In the wake of the Women's Movement, a partner defers to my authority because she chooses to do so, not because she is adhering to the norms of society. This increases the value of her submission exponentially as far as I'm concerned.

Leaving aside all of that.... I have a sister and a niece. I care for both of them very deeply. Need I say more?

Let's keep in mind, however, that a lot of the chilvarous gestures discussed here indicated not something so sexy as D/s, but much more that of parent/child.

Most definitely.

As I wrote on post 43, above: taken as a whole, the old standards of polite society really did reflect an attitude that women should be demure and deferential, while men should be protective and in charge.

WHY the person is doing it is more important than what they are doing.

Bingo.

 

[kat_or_kitten]

The Women's Movement owes me no apologies. It gave me a lifetime of female business associates, friends, and partners who are well-educated, well-rounded, and a fascinating counterpart to the players in the World of the Male.

In the wake of the Women's Movement, a partner defers to my authority because she chooses to do so, not because she is adhering to the norms of society. This increases the value of her submission exponentially as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you for saying this. New to exploring the D/s world as I am, I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately, wondering how my own submissiveness blends with my feminist ideals. Certainly, my own life and career wouldn't be possible without the accomplishments of the Women's Movement.

I'm sure I'll continue to feel a fair bit of internal conflict on the subject, but your thoughts are very helpful. Thanks again.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Not chivalry but a respinsibility

I decided to re-visit this thread to put my own dominant spin on it.

In my world chivalry is not an issue. I agree with others that good manners is the order of the day. I hold doors for people who cannot open them for themselves regardless of race, creed, national origin, sex age, etc.

However, as a female dominant, being a gentlemen is not the issue. Being an obedient slave or submissive is. When I am with a submissive, I never open doors of any kind including my car door, even if I am driving. I never carry my own packages, and I hardly ever carry my own purse if I want t add a little spice to the situation I do not put cream or sugar in my own coffee or tea unless I want to.

It is my submissive/slave's job to do these things and more. It is a mark of his training to serve and his obedience to me.

I believe that manhood and chivalry are not necessarily intertwined.

As for the feminist movement, it is something that did not work for me in the past, and it a non-issue for me today.


Eb