Help me with my commitment phobe

[LadyJeanne]

I wonder if you can get a shower attachment that integrates soap into the water (car of like the wash setting at a do-it-yourself car wash) so you can stay lathered up constantly? (you know, slickery?)

Excellent idea!! I'm sure there's something like that out there!


Funny you should mention that, though. I tried introducing him to yummy scented liquid soap and the pouffy thing, but he likes the old bar soap and washcloth. I tease him about that constantly...if shampoo came in bar form, that's what he'd be using...

 

[LadyJeanne]

Haha, that's exactly what I was going to say

to you for saying so!

 

[Straight-8]

Most committment-phobes seem to me to: a) figure they've got the good part so why take a risk; and/or b) be immature and not want to grow up and have to actually face reality.

If he figures he's got the benefits of a marriage like relationship without the risks then I guess you've got to entice him with what else there is in store for him and show him how much more there is. Most guys don't 'think through' relationships to the extent that women do (at least in my dinosaur world) so we may not be very attuned to the long term advantages of a real committment. The growing old together thing doesn't apply because we know we will always be young and attractive enough to get beautiful women to seek us out.

I mean, really, how many guys think that, if (insert name of desirable sex godess) only got to know them, she'd be all over me (ahem - I mean 'them').

Which brings us to the second point: Growing up is hard to do. I think it often takes a fairly strong blow (or ten) from real life before a lot of guys realize that they aren't actually the late teen/early twenties hunk that they once were. Of course, women don't help much because of the fact that beauties often seem to end up with guys who are not at all in their looks (or age) league - so hope springs eternal at some elemental level. But I think the basic feeling (not 'thought') is that, if you don't 'commit' then there is always the chance that you won't, actually, get old.

Reminds me of Moonstruck when Olympia DeKokis (sp?) concludes that men fool around because they are afraid of death. I think there is a powerful element of truth in that.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Most committment-phobes seem to me to: a) figure they've got the good part so why take a risk; and/or b) be immature and not want to grow up and have to actually face reality.

If he figures he's got the benefits of a marriage like relationship without the risks then I guess you've got to entice him with what else there is in store for him and show him how much more there is. Most guys don't 'think through' relationships to the extent that women do (at least in my dinosaur world) so we may not be very attuned to the long term advantages of a real committment. The growing old together thing doesn't apply because we know we will always be young and attractive enough to get beautiful women to seek us out.

Hmm, so what are these benefits I can entice him with? From a man's perspective, what's better after marriage?

I mean, really, how many guys think that, if (insert name of desirable sex godess) only got to know them, she'd be all over me (ahem - I mean 'them').

He's already got the desirable sex goddess!!

I can take Brittney Spears any day!!

Which brings us to the second point: Growing up is hard to do. I think it often takes a fairly strong blow (or ten) from real life before a lot of guys realize that they aren't actually the late teen/early twenties hunk that they once were. Of course, women don't help much because of the fact that beauties often seem to end up with guys who are not at all in their looks (or age) league - so hope springs eternal at some elemental level. But I think the basic feeling (not 'thought') is that, if you don't 'commit' then there is always the chance that you won't, actually, get old.

Reminds me of Moonstruck when Olympia DeKokis (sp?) concludes that men fool around because they are afraid of death. I think there is a powerful element of truth in that.

Dammit, he's got all his hair and is in great shape.

There's some truth to this, I think. He turned 40 this year, and it did give him pause, a little. He's starting to realize he's not as young as he used to be (is even thinking of giving up his fall football league!), and I am of the belief that will ultimately work in our favor. It's harder to fool yourself into thinking you'll live forever when you're closer to AARP age than college age.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[Cathleen]

Sounds like a classic yin and yang to me. Frankly after reading this I know I'm like your SO. Comfort matters to me, stability and the known. That's not to say I don't try new things but I don't do it near as much as I did when I was younger.

However, with the comfort/security of someone who can and do change things up I do far better. I'm thinking Scaly was in my mind poking around and found some stuff that was hidden away in the corners or under boxes or something. The ''me to we'' is tough for me to contemplate right now. I'm not a selfish person at all, far from it, but the ''we'' has my stomach doing flip flops and I'm not even in a relationship!

For me it would take some time, patience and probably extra assurance that I'm ok and we are ok. Sort of like a need for extra soothing as each step is taken.

You have my best wishes LadyJ.

 

[Guest]

 

[LadyJeanne]

Sounds like a classic yin and yang to me. Frankly after reading this I know I'm like your SO. Comfort matters to me, stability and the known. That's not to say I don't try new things but I don't do it near as much as I did when I was younger.

However, with the comfort/security of someone who can and do change things up I do far better. I'm thinking Scaly was in my mind poking around and found some stuff that was hidden away in the corners or under boxes or something. The ''me to we'' is tough for me to contemplate right now. I'm not a selfish person at all, far from it, but the ''we'' has my stomach doing flip flops and I'm not even in a relationship!

For me it would take some time, patience and probably extra assurance that I'm ok and we are ok. Sort of like a need for extra soothing as each step is taken.

You have my best wishes LadyJ.

Thank you, sweets.

Cate....selfishness may not have been the best choice of words for what i was attempting to mean, maybe self-centered is better, but I don't think that's really right either. I don't mean in a greedy way...more of in a "I'm looking out for myself first" kind of way, meaning they are not ready to let someone else onto the pedestal with them in an equal kind of way. sort of.

I know what you two are saying. He's not selfish, however, the "me" to "we" is definitely one of those big changes that don't come naturally to him.

He's been on his own since college, and since his dad died a dozen years ago, he does a lot of things to help his mom. So it's him first, mom second, his work and other responsibilities, and then the fun stuff, including the woman in his life.

It's easier for him to compartmentalize than to integrate. When we get together, it's all about 'us'. He gives me his undivided attention. It's like, ok, I've been working and home repairing and taking care of stuff and whatever; now it's time for relationship fun.

I think that makes it harder for him to imagine "we" all the time...it would be a big change if the relationship permeated everything and he had to take that into consideration in all that he does.

I think he's making it all far more complicated than it need be. Commitment has turned into this big 2001 Space Odyssey monolith, rather than a natural step in a good relationship.

maybe I should just shut up.

Not until you tell me what men think the benefits of marriage are!

 

[bobsgirl]

LJ, something you made me think about...

If you two were married then it would be the two of you shouldering the responsibilities of family and home. And two people united and dealing with all the "stuff" you have to deal with in life is so much more rewarding.

My husband has said before that he loves knowing that I will be there when he gets home everyday. (That made me smile...)

 

[Quoll]

Thank you, sweets.



I know what you two are saying. He's not selfish, however, the "me" to "we" is definitely one of those big changes that don't come naturally to him.

He's been on his own since college, and since his dad died a dozen years ago, he does a lot of things to help his mom. So it's him first, mom second, his work and other responsibilities, and then the fun stuff, including the woman in his life.

It's easier for him to compartmentalize than to integrate. When we get together, it's all about 'us'. He gives me his undivided attention. It's like, ok, I've been working and home repairing and taking care of stuff and whatever; now it's time for relationship fun.

I think that makes it harder for him to imagine "we" all the time...it would be a big change if the relationship permeated everything and he had to take that into consideration in all that he does.

I think he's making it all far more complicated than it need be. Commitment has turned into this big 2001 Space Odyssey monolith, rather than a natural step in a good relationship.



Not until you tell me what men think the benefits of marriage are!

Being with someone who you can trust, depend on, care for, cry with, laugh with, someone who loves you for who you are, someone who will help you through a crisis, someone who will give you space when you need it, but be right by your side as well.
Being with someone who will allow you to do all these things for them when they are in need.
Having someone to come home to.
Of course that's just me.

 

[LadyJeanne]

LJ, something you made me think about...

If you two were married then it would be the two of you shouldering the responsibilities of family and home. And two people united and dealing with all the "stuff" you have to deal with in life is so much more rewarding.

My husband has said before that he loves knowing that I will be there when he gets home everyday. (That made me smile...)

Being with someone who you can trust, depend on, care for, cry with, laugh with, someone who loves you for who you are, someone who will help you through a crisis, someone who will give you space when you need it, but be right by your side as well.
Being with someone who will allow you to do all these things for them when they are in need.
Having someone to come home to.
Of course that's just me.

I'm seeing a common trend here.

Thank you bobsgirl and quoll.


This thread is making me realize that he's nowhere near ready for marriage.

 

[SweetErika]

This thread is making me realize that he's nowhere near ready for marriage.

Is there a compromise that you both could be comfortable with for the time being, LJ? You know, a little more than now, but not so far as (impending) marriage; perhaps a something you define together and maybe a symbolic token you both wear/have/share?

It's a tough situation, so I hope he quickly realizes how much he's missing out on by not taking the next step! If you're anything like our LadyJeanne (and I'm sure you're far more amazing in RL), he's incredibly lucky to have a shot at spending his life with you.

 

[Cathleen]

<snip>

He's been on his own since college, and since his dad died a dozen years ago, he does a lot of things to help his mom. So it's him first, mom second, his work and other responsibilities, and then the fun stuff, including the woman in his life.

It's easier for him to compartmentalize than to integrate. When we get together, it's all about 'us'. He gives me his undivided attention. It's like, ok, I've been working and home repairing and taking care of stuff and whatever; now it's time for relationship fun.

I think that makes it harder for him to imagine "we" all the time...it would be a big change if the relationship permeated everything and he had to take that into consideration in all that he does.

Firstly, Scaly, I understand what you're saying and took nothing personally.

LadyJ, this compartmentalizing thing makes a lot of sense. As BG said it will become two shouldering the responsibilities not just ''I have to go by my mom's to fix XYZ'' it and other things become part of each day you two share.

I'd think that takes some adjusting to for every marriage. Seems to me that it totally changes ''We" time as well as 'me' time. The "We" time is no longer all hearts and flowers so to speak. It becomes the 7am, I'm running late, or it's after office hours and one might want to go play softball and the other expects dinner home/out.

Thinking about this it seems the ''we'' time is the bigger adjustment. Kind of like no one tells you there's no sex after marriage, Lit members notwithstanding ; ), but that while courting the attention is 100% on you as a couple for those hours. I think?

 

[wicked woman]

Great advice so far. Looking at it from another perspective (since I have no alternative advice to help get you to where you want to be with your man) might I suggest that you set a time limit on how much time you want to continue to invest in this man? You say you've got a long history with him. You're both past an age where most people have the ability to commit to a marriage. Just how long are you prepared to wait? Not saying it has to be 6 months...but not the 40 years you initially said was too long either.

Would you be satisfied if the relationship didn't progress to marriage?

 

[M's girl]

Great advice so far. Looking at it from another perspective (since I have no alternative advice to help get you to where you want to be with your man) might I suggest that you set a time limit on how much time you want to continue to invest in this man? You say you've got a long history with him. You're both past an age where most people have the ability to commit to a marriage. Just how long are you prepared to wait? Not saying it has to be 6 months...but not the 40 years you initially said was too long either.

Would you be satisfied if the relationship didn't progress to marriage?

Although I agree on the one hand, I'm not sure if a limit is going to work. You might wanna set it for yourself but then what? It's not as easy as that I think. Plus on the one hand it's not fair if you don't let him in on the schedule and on the other hand, if you do, he probably will feel pressured even more than he feels now? I don't know. This is a hard one.

Like I said before, I cannot imagine him not wanting to make a commitment to you because from what I know you would be the best thing that ever happened to him! I mean that. You are smart and sexy and wise. But you know? This is not about you. This is not about you NOT being attractive and all. It's about him refusing to grow up just that last little piece. I think you should decide for yourself how important marriage is to you. Because if you really really think about it hard, it's just a piece of paper. It does NOT bring more securities and it does not secure you against him running of with someone else or what have you!

But I understand why you want it anyway. It's so the right thing to do, or at least it feels like it, if you are so certain you want to spend the rest of your life with someone. It's more a romantic thing than anything else, I think.

I hope your dreams will come true in the end. Remember though, he loves you, even though he does not want to marry you (yet).

 

[Guest]

 

[Straight-8]

Hmm, so what are these benefits I can entice him with? From a man's perspective, what's better after marriage?

Ironically, exactly what he is after: stability and continuity. The chance to develop to your full potential with another person rather than living the 'Groundhog Day' life over and over. But if you are giving him that without the marriage then you are going to have to show him what the advantages of marriage to you are. I have every confidence that you will come up with quite a few!

 

[LadyJeanne]

Is there a compromise that you both could be comfortable with for the time being, LJ? You know, a little more than now, but not so far as (impending) marriage; perhaps a something you define together and maybe a symbolic token you both wear/have/share?

For the time being, I'm not really in need of a compromise. I'm delighted that we aren't 2000 miles apart anymore, and the warmth between us is, at the risk of sounding like a besotted fool, making me glow from the inside out.

I started this thread because I know my guy very well, and I know that if we were to ever get to a point where we would marry, we'd have to start with the baby steps now in order for him to be comfortable enough to eventually get there. Long way of saying, I'm not uncomfortable right now, but want to work toward the goal because I recognize it will take work.

It's a tough situation, so I hope he quickly realizes how much he's missing out on by not taking the next step! If you're anything like our LadyJeanne (and I'm sure you're far more amazing in RL), he's incredibly lucky to have a shot at spending his life with you.

Oh, sweets, you've brought tears to my eyes.

And you've hit the nail on the head: I hope he will one day think he's incredibly lucky to have me in his life and not want to let me slip away.

LadyJ, this compartmentalizing thing makes a lot of sense. As BG said it will become two shouldering the responsibilities not just ''I have to go by my mom's to fix XYZ'' it and other things become part of each day you two share.

I'd think that takes some adjusting to for every marriage. Seems to me that it totally changes ''We" time as well as 'me' time. The "We" time is no longer all hearts and flowers so to speak. It becomes the 7am, I'm running late, or it's after office hours and one might want to go play softball and the other expects dinner home/out.

Thinking about this it seems the ''we'' time is the bigger adjustment. Kind of like no one tells you there's no sex after marriage, Lit members notwithstanding ; ), but that while courting the attention is 100% on you as a couple for those hours. I think?

This is it exactly - he's never gotten out of the 'courting' stage with anyone. He's never integrated a woman into his day-to-day life, so has no experience with the changes that happen when you do that. He might get it as an abstract concept, but in practical experience, he doesn't know how it feels to have the couple shouldering the responsibilities and how that does lighten the load. And I think he's hesitant to experience what a relationship is like when the attention is divided - or doesn't believe a woman would accept divided attention with good grace, or that things could be worked out if there are conflicts in their day-to-day lives.

Great advice so far. Looking at it from another perspective (since I have no alternative advice to help get you to where you want to be with your man) might I suggest that you set a time limit on how much time you want to continue to invest in this man? You say you've got a long history with him. You're both past an age where most people have the ability to commit to a marriage. Just how long are you prepared to wait? Not saying it has to be 6 months...but not the 40 years you initially said was too long either.

Would you be satisfied if the relationship didn't progress to marriage?

Time limit = bad. That would put pressure on both of us, and make us both uncomfortable. Progress = good. If I see progress and that we are getting closer, I would continue to invest more of myself and my time with him. I'm seeing the progress now; if I stopped seeing progress, that is likely when I'd start becoming unhappy and I would need to get a deeper understanding what's causing the logjam, and if anything would dislodge it.

I don't know how much time I would give it. Because I know he's slow to change about a lot of things, probably a longer time frame than I might with someone else. I want to give us every chance possible to make this work.

However, no, I would not be satisfied if we didn't get to marriage. That would make me very sad, actually. Marriage is very important to me. I want that kind of relationship in my life.

Although I agree on the one hand, I'm not sure if a limit is going to work. You might wanna set it for yourself but then what? It's not as easy as that I think. Plus on the one hand it's not fair if you don't let him in on the schedule and on the other hand, if you do, he probably will feel pressured even more than he feels now? I don't know. This is a hard one.

Like I said before, I cannot imagine him not wanting to make a commitment to you because from what I know you would be the best thing that ever happened to him! I mean that. You are smart and sexy and wise. But you know? This is not about you. This is not about you NOT being attractive and all. It's about him refusing to grow up just that last little piece. I think you should decide for yourself how important marriage is to you. Because if you really really think about it hard, it's just a piece of paper. It does NOT bring more securities and it does not secure you against him running of with someone else or what have you!

But I understand why you want it anyway. It's so the right thing to do, or at least it feels like it, if you are so certain you want to spend the rest of your life with someone. It's more a romantic thing than anything else, I think.

I hope your dreams will come true in the end. Remember though, he loves you, even though he does not want to marry you (yet).

Thank you, sweets. I know he loves me, and I love him, and that's why this matters to me. To me marriage isn't just a piece of paper; it's a deep, personal commitment to each other. Of course we can have that without the formal documents - my wonderful gay friends have shown me that. It's the commitment part he gets stuck on...letting someone in that deeply...

OK LJ, now for a few questions:

Do you participate in any of his "routine" things? Help him do things for his mom? Help him do things at the cottage? (i don't mean just go with him, i mean actually help him). go watch his softball game? would you consider asking him if he wanted to join a co-ed softball league that you would also participate in (though this would best be in addition to the one he's already in, not replacing it)?

Does his work require him to travel often? does he have a long commute to work each day? is his job stressful? does his job have a lot of unpredictablility? does his job require him to solve problems immediately (put out fires, so to speak)?

...which brings us right to Scaly's very on-target questions.

No, I don't participate in his routine things. His mom lives a few hours away where the summer cottage is, and I haven't been invited there yet. I've wanted to go to his games, but he doesn't ask me to. I'm hesitant to invite myself, because I don't want him to feel like I'm pressuring him to involve me in everything he does. I know he needs his alone time. The cottage thing has been on my mind since it's getting in the way of our spending weekend time together, so that's something I will be talking to him about tonight.

He doesn't travel for work, but his commute is long. It's a stressful job, though not especially unpredictable. Techie mainframe stuff, so sometimes things go very wrong and fires need to be put out, but mostly there's a schedule of what needs to be done when. He does manage people as well, which is where most of his stress comes from.

Spending time with me is a huge stress-reliever for him. However, he doesn't ask or allow me to help in other ways. He's been working on renovating a house his mom owns in preparation for sale, and I've offered to go over there and rip up carpeting and clean and whatnot, but he always declines. He complains that his house is a disaster area, and I've offered to help him clear it out, but he declines.

I don't know if it's that he wants time with me to be time with me - that 100% attention - or he can't/won't allow me into other areas of his life yet.

To some degree, I think he's always surprised when I do stuff for him. Like, if I've stocked my fridge with his favorite beer, or if I wash some of his clothes that he may have inadvertently left here, or if I bring him little gifts from my travels. It's like, wow, thank you for thinking of me. When we were in Mexico, while he'd be off diving, I went to the supermarket daily to try to get the fresh limes before they were all sold out, and he was just shocked that I'd be willing to do that. I'm not sure why. Isn't that what people do for each other?

 

[LadyJeanne]

Ironically, exactly what he is after: stability and continuity. The chance to develop to your full potential with another person rather than living the 'Groundhog Day' life over and over. But if you are giving him that without the marriage then you are going to have to show him what the advantages of marriage to you are. I have every confidence that you will come up with quite a few!

He's getting some of the "perks" but not so much the groundhog day...the desserts, but not the full course meal...

I think only by bringing him more and more into MY world will he be comfortable bringing me fully into his. He's not ready to let me in more fully yet.

 

[Cathleen]

Ironically, exactly what he is after: stability and continuity. The chance to develop to your full potential with another person rather than living the 'Groundhog Day' life over and over. But if you are giving him that without the marriage then you are going to have to show him what the advantages of marriage to you are. I have every confidence that you will come up with quite a few!

I really like what you've said here Straight. I didn't see the irony -- having a ''light bulb'' moment here. Thanks.

 

[Guest]

 

[Cathleen]

No, I don't participate in his routine things. His mom lives a few hours away where the summer cottage is, and I haven't been invited there yet. I've wanted to go to his games, but he doesn't ask me to. I'm hesitant to invite myself, because I don't want him to feel like I'm pressuring him to involve me in everything he does. I know he needs his alone time. The cottage thing has been on my mind since it's getting in the way of our spending weekend time together, so that's something I will be talking to him about tonight.

He doesn't travel for work, but his commute is long. It's a stressful job, though not especially unpredictable. Techie mainframe stuff, so sometimes things go very wrong and fires need to be put out, but mostly there's a schedule of what needs to be done when. He does manage people as well, which is where most of his stress comes from.

Spending time with me is a huge stress-reliever for him. However, he doesn't ask or allow me to help in other ways. He's been working on renovating a house his mom owns in preparation for sale, and I've offered to go over there and rip up carpeting and clean and whatnot, but he always declines. He complains that his house is a disaster area, and I've offered to help him clear it out, but he declines.

I don't know if it's that he wants time with me to be time with me - that 100% attention - or he can't/won't allow me into other areas of his life yet.

I've had (still have) views from both sides, the not being included in his world, his stressors etc to the view of being the stress relief. Neither felt good.

Maybe you could show up to one of his games, meet some of the folks there. I use to go to them when the gang played, it was what we did, the guys played and the ladies chatted and watched. Maybe even bring snacks/water with you (trying not to sound like a soccer mom).

Have you been direct with him? Have you stated that you want to go with him to his mom's home and help -- along side him. Have you been clear, and at the risk of being sexist, been clear in a ''guy way''? Meaning, fewer words, straight to the point communication. I could talk seven ways to Sunday about something with a woman friend and still the issue isn't ''solved'' but it's been understood. I think women need to understand whereas men need to know. Just my opinion.

So, have you said "I want to be with you, I want to share experiences" and dare I say it "I want to make memories of us"?

And dang that Scaly, he sure knows how to pin point on this stuff. Scaly, if I ever find myself in a similar position I'm coming to you for advice.

LadyJ, I feel grateful you've brought this to Lit, I'm learning a lot. Thanks for sharing.

 

[LadyJeanne]

This says a lot to me. He's not used to having people do stuff for him, he's used to doing stuff for himself or be the one doing things for others. If I was you, I'd somehow try to get him to understand that you want to do things for him because you enjoy doing things for him. Same thing with the cottage or organizing his house. It's not that you want to clean and organize, it's that you want to help him because it makes you feel good. It's not about the cottage, it's about him.

Damn, Scaly - it's like you're in his head! You're exactly right about this. He isn't used to getting help from anyone on anything, really. His brother isn't much of a finance/taxes/real estate guy, nor is he a fix it/home repair guy, so he's pretty much taken on the majority of responsibilities with helping his mom.

That's one of the things l love about him - he believes it's important to look out for family. We have that in common as I have always taken a lot of responsibility for helping my parents out as they are immigrants and aging...that's one of the main catalysts for my move to the midwest. Fortunately, my sister has turned out to be equally responsible and far from being useless, so she and I share the work these days.

Have you been direct with him? Have you stated that you want to go with him to his mom's home and help -- along side him. Have you been clear, and at the risk of being sexist, been clear in a ''guy way''? Meaning, fewer words, straight to the point communication. I could talk seven ways to Sunday about something with a woman friend and still the issue isn't ''solved'' but it's been understood. I think women need to understand whereas men need to know. Just my opinion.

So, have you said "I want to be with you, I want to share experiences" and dare I say it "I want to make memories of us"?

You're on target, as well. I hadn't been that direct, and have been using woman-speak...

BUT, I took yours and Scaly's advice...

I asked him a lot of questions last night at dinner about the cottage, about the work he's doing there and on his mom's other house, etc. You should have seen the raised eyebrows and eyes popping out of his head when I offered to help him out. He kept saying, but it's really just a lot of hard, dirty work cleaning a lot of really dirty stuff from the basement, and lots of hot, dirty yard work....he couldn't imagine that I'd want to do that. I told him sure, but I wanted to help him...he still wouldn't take me up on my offer, but I'll follow up.

Oh, and the reason I haven't been invited to the cottage...besides not wanting to abandon me while he's working, mom's been staying there. It only has two bedrooms, and while she knows her little boy isn't celibate, she's a Christian with a capital C, so it would be a bit awkward for us all.

And dang that Scaly, he sure knows how to pin point on this stuff. Scaly, if I ever find myself in a similar position I'm coming to you for advice.

LadyJ, I feel grateful you've brought this to Lit, I'm learning a lot. Thanks for sharing.

Agreed on all counts, and thank you!

I'm the one who's really learning here, so am truly grateful for everyone's input. I knew I was coming to the right place for help.

 

[Guest]