Help me with my commitment phobe
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LadyJeanne
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Scalywag said:
I know...I finally picked up that "Men are from Mars.." book on communication, and I see a few things in there I'm guilty of. You've read a story or two of mine...I'm into description. I see my SO sometimes just looking at me when I'm talking and can see the wheels turning in his head - he knows I have a point, and he's patiently waiting for me to get to it.
The book says to give men the point first, then you can go into all the description. I'll have to practice this. It works in business - executive summary first, then the data. I didn't realize I had to do it at home, too.
Scalywag said:
I think it's a combination of things. He probably doesn't get much offers of help from anyone; he probably doesn't understand why anyone would willingly want to spend their free time clearing out a basement if it wasn't their own basement; and I'm thinking he hasn't actually seen me getting my hands dirty.
He knows I refinished an old dresser, he knows I stripped, sanded, primed and painted a set of chairs*, he knows I re-landscaped my yard in SF, he knows I've been helping my parents lay sod and haul rocks around their new place, and he certainly heard about how filthy my new apartment was when I moved in, but he wasn't present to actually see me do any of these kinds of things.
Actually, a lot of my friends are surprised by the stuff I do. They know me now...professional, traveling business chick...and forget that I came from the grubbiest of backgrounds, so hard work isn't exactly foreign to me...
Scalywag said:
I don't think the learning, reflecting, and working ever ends, really. Guess that's what keeps us on our toes!
*painting is like sex…
- stripping is recommended
- taking the time to prime carefully will yield the best results
- repeated stroking is necessary throughout
- you might find yourself in the strangest positions to get to those hard to reach spots
- patient effort is rewarded
- you almost always have to do it again
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bobsgirl
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Scalywag said:
Thank you for the kind words however I really don't think I have any great skills regarding relationships. But I do have some skills with analysis and attention to detail, breaking things down and asking questions .
My own problems with relationships are:
1. recognizing there is a problem
2. defining the problem
once I get past that point, I can usually figure out the rest.
This seems to be a problem for my husband too. Subtlety and hints don't work with him. Up-front, to-the-point statements are necessary. It's a struggle because if he doesn't agree it's a problem, he dismisses it right off.
My problem is I lead with my emotions, and MrB is all about logic, first, last, and always. At times we just don't speak the same language.
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LadyJeanne
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First, I'd like to apologize for just disappearing. I needed to be away from Lit or a while, though not away from my friends in the Cafe, just Lit. I hope you'll forgive me.
I'm here today because I hardly know where to turn and I've got all these emotions and thoughts bottled up that have nowhere to go...
About 6 weeks ago, I told my SO that I wanted to get married, and since he's only had 20 years to make up his mind about me, that he should give it some thought. I wasn't expecting an answer so soon – frankly, I was afraid he'd take another 20 years to think - but last night he said:
It never occurred to me that he'd choose email to say this. He's so strong about everything else except when it comes to talking about his feelings. But it's soooo frustrating that he wasn't here with me to discuss it. Maybe he was afraid to see my sad little face when he told me. I almost don't know if I’m more disappointed about what he said, or that he couldn't bear to be with me when he said it. Way to not share an important moment with me, dude.
I replied to his email. I told him that he didn't have to be afraid to talk to me about his feelings. That I love him as he is and that I want to understand better. That I don't know what he wants out of life that he can't merge with the idea of marriage. That I don't know what his concerns are about marriage because we haven't talked about them. Maybe he'll explain it to me tonight...I asked him to call me. Or maybe he'll crawl back into the Mars cave. I really have no idea.
I know he's thought about it. I know he's definite. He's not one to change his mind after making a decision. I wish he had asked me something, anything about what MY thoughts were on marriage before making a decision! I thought he would take his time about this and think about it and talk to me and ask me things before coming to a conclusion.
I'll understand better after we talk, I'm sure, and I'll need to talk this through with him before deciding what I want to do...stay with him because we love each other or leave because...well, I don't know how marriage would prevent him from getting what he wants out of life, so I don't know if just being in a committed relationship would prevent him from his happiness...I'm rambling now...
Email. He chose email for this. And he hasn't yet called me. And I need to cry and I can't.
I'm here today because I hardly know where to turn and I've got all these emotions and thoughts bottled up that have nowhere to go...
About 6 weeks ago, I told my SO that I wanted to get married, and since he's only had 20 years to make up his mind about me, that he should give it some thought. I wasn't expecting an answer so soon – frankly, I was afraid he'd take another 20 years to think - but last night he said:
It never occurred to me that he'd choose email to say this. He's so strong about everything else except when it comes to talking about his feelings. But it's soooo frustrating that he wasn't here with me to discuss it. Maybe he was afraid to see my sad little face when he told me. I almost don't know if I’m more disappointed about what he said, or that he couldn't bear to be with me when he said it. Way to not share an important moment with me, dude.
I replied to his email. I told him that he didn't have to be afraid to talk to me about his feelings. That I love him as he is and that I want to understand better. That I don't know what he wants out of life that he can't merge with the idea of marriage. That I don't know what his concerns are about marriage because we haven't talked about them. Maybe he'll explain it to me tonight...I asked him to call me. Or maybe he'll crawl back into the Mars cave. I really have no idea.
I know he's thought about it. I know he's definite. He's not one to change his mind after making a decision. I wish he had asked me something, anything about what MY thoughts were on marriage before making a decision! I thought he would take his time about this and think about it and talk to me and ask me things before coming to a conclusion.
I'll understand better after we talk, I'm sure, and I'll need to talk this through with him before deciding what I want to do...stay with him because we love each other or leave because...well, I don't know how marriage would prevent him from getting what he wants out of life, so I don't know if just being in a committed relationship would prevent him from his happiness...I'm rambling now...
Email. He chose email for this. And he hasn't yet called me. And I need to cry and I can't.
silverwhisper
just this guy, you know?
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o, ladyjeanne, i'm sorry.
{{ladyjeanne}}
[offers ladyjeanne some ice cream]
ed
{{ladyjeanne}}
[offers ladyjeanne some ice cream]
ed
midwestyankee
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LJ, I'm so sorry this happened to you. You deserve far better from one you love.
LadyJeanne
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silverwhisper said:
Thank you, ed.
midwestyankee said:
Yes I do, I really do.
Thank you, sweets.
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LadyJeanne
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Thanks everyone for the hugs, kind words, and good thoughts.
We had a loooong talk last night and it boils down to he just doesn't want to get married. If he did, I'd be the one. He loves me and would marry me if he could see himself being married, but he just can't see himself wanting to be married. He can picture it, but it makes him very uncomfortable.
His general concept of marriage: "giving his life away"
He wants to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants with his time. Says if he pscychoanalyzes himself, that it's because he had overprotective parents as a child who never let him do anything, so ever since breaking away from that when he went off to college, he's insisted that nothing limit his freedom and independence. He admits he has what he calls, "independence issues".
I spent a long time trying to give him a different way of looking at this issue, at more of a micro level that would be personal to us, rather than at a macro level. Because it's one thing to have a general fear, and another thing to break-down the components of that fear in a specific situation. You know, what freedom exactly is he afraid of losing and would I, me - not the generic wife - actually require him to give that up? I spent a long time explaining my idea of marriage with specifics - this is what marriage is, and what it isn't, for me and how it applies to us.
NO, I don't want him to change. I like who he is. I don't want him to stop doing the activities he loves; I don't need someone joined to my hip 24/7, that would make me insane. I don't want to limit his freedom. But yes, marriage has some inherent limits built into the program.
He actually agreed with me on those points, and understands; however, he admits his fear is somewhat irrational but just can't see himself changing.
Living together without marriage is pretty much the same things as marriage in his mind, except for the legalities, so living together pushes his panic buttons as well.
It's like having a fear of heights. Rationally, you know you're not going to fall over the railing or the bridge isn't going to collapse under your feet. But one glance over the edge, and your mind and body go into panic mode and reason and logic don't apply.
Yes, I asked him if he's considered therapy. No, he doesn't see himself doing that.
So. Isn't that lovely for me? He wants us to be boyfriend/girlfriend indefinitely, but is worried that's likely to frustrate me since I want a marriage.
For now, I'm not ready to make a decision. We're going to continue to see each other and we'll both keep thinking about this and talking about it periodically.
I'm between a rock and a hard place. I don't want to stop seeing him because we have a wonderful relationship and a very strong love. At the same time, our relationship is ultimately limited by his fears unless he can get past them. I'm not sure where this will end up, but I fear this is the beginning of the end.
Sucks to be me right now.
We had a loooong talk last night and it boils down to he just doesn't want to get married. If he did, I'd be the one. He loves me and would marry me if he could see himself being married, but he just can't see himself wanting to be married. He can picture it, but it makes him very uncomfortable.
His general concept of marriage: "giving his life away"
He wants to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants with his time. Says if he pscychoanalyzes himself, that it's because he had overprotective parents as a child who never let him do anything, so ever since breaking away from that when he went off to college, he's insisted that nothing limit his freedom and independence. He admits he has what he calls, "independence issues".
I spent a long time trying to give him a different way of looking at this issue, at more of a micro level that would be personal to us, rather than at a macro level. Because it's one thing to have a general fear, and another thing to break-down the components of that fear in a specific situation. You know, what freedom exactly is he afraid of losing and would I, me - not the generic wife - actually require him to give that up? I spent a long time explaining my idea of marriage with specifics - this is what marriage is, and what it isn't, for me and how it applies to us.
NO, I don't want him to change. I like who he is. I don't want him to stop doing the activities he loves; I don't need someone joined to my hip 24/7, that would make me insane. I don't want to limit his freedom. But yes, marriage has some inherent limits built into the program.
He actually agreed with me on those points, and understands; however, he admits his fear is somewhat irrational but just can't see himself changing.
Living together without marriage is pretty much the same things as marriage in his mind, except for the legalities, so living together pushes his panic buttons as well.
It's like having a fear of heights. Rationally, you know you're not going to fall over the railing or the bridge isn't going to collapse under your feet. But one glance over the edge, and your mind and body go into panic mode and reason and logic don't apply.
Yes, I asked him if he's considered therapy. No, he doesn't see himself doing that.
So. Isn't that lovely for me? He wants us to be boyfriend/girlfriend indefinitely, but is worried that's likely to frustrate me since I want a marriage.
For now, I'm not ready to make a decision. We're going to continue to see each other and we'll both keep thinking about this and talking about it periodically.
I'm between a rock and a hard place. I don't want to stop seeing him because we have a wonderful relationship and a very strong love. At the same time, our relationship is ultimately limited by his fears unless he can get past them. I'm not sure where this will end up, but I fear this is the beginning of the end.
Sucks to be me right now.
kitsune_kun
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I Know i'm joining this rather late, and as such, I'm sorry to hear about his "decision"... we're all here for you if you continue to feel you need people to talk to.
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silverwhisper
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i'm so sorry he's a complete doofus, ladyjeanne. :<
ed
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midwestyankee
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LJ, I'm sorry you're having to face this. I don't suppose there's quite enough ice cream in the world to compensate, is there?
bobsgirl
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{{{{{LadyJeanne}}}}} I was so happy to see you posting, but not for this reason, sweety.
Very unfortunately, it looks like your love has batted it right back to you. He obviously has issues about his independence and pretty much refuses to seek therapy to understand them better.
It boils down to, how do you want to live the rest of your life? Will you be happy settling for drastically less than what you want? I think it's very sad that he's so scared of commitment. He is denying himself so much of what is truly important in life. I really hope he doesn't wake up one day 15 or 20 years from now with huge regrets.
I'm sorry you have this to deal with. No easy painless answers. I wish you strength and grace to deal with this.
Very unfortunately, it looks like your love has batted it right back to you. He obviously has issues about his independence and pretty much refuses to seek therapy to understand them better.
It boils down to, how do you want to live the rest of your life? Will you be happy settling for drastically less than what you want? I think it's very sad that he's so scared of commitment. He is denying himself so much of what is truly important in life. I really hope he doesn't wake up one day 15 or 20 years from now with huge regrets.
I'm sorry you have this to deal with. No easy painless answers. I wish you strength and grace to deal with this.
tanyachrs
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I feel the same way he does. It's seen as so unnatural, I think in some ways it's brave of him to be honest with you. Most marriages do fail and many of the ones that don't technically fail are flat and unhappy (you see the posts around here). If you've got to have the marriage then this is obviously horrible for you and you'll have to move on so you can ultimately be happy, but consider his point of view. If the two of you are happy now and have this great relationship, are you sure you want to mess with it? Tradition tells us that marriage is a deepening but testimony tell us it's a lessening. Few couples go on to be happier or love one another more after getting married.
Sorry, that's horribly cynical but realistic in my experience. If nothing else, it maybe tells you something about how he feels.
Sorry, that's horribly cynical but realistic in my experience. If nothing else, it maybe tells you something about how he feels.
SweetErika
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Is it just marriage you have a beef with, or is living together a problem for you as well?tanyachrs said:
I think that's what would get me in this type of situation; I would happily not be married, but at some point I'd want to be together more than living as bf/gf in two separate households would allow. Even without kids, I'd want us to be a family.
I hope he'll change his mind on at least the therapy and/or living together, LJ - you deserve someone who will make an effort to overcome obstacles like this. I'm glad you're back and giving us the honor of supporting your beautiful self, too.
wicked woman
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Good to see you back. As others have said...sorry it's over this.
Call me crazy but part of me thinks how much strength it must take for him to be this honest with you...even if it was initially by email. He knows how it will disappoint you. He must guess that he might lose you over it. He could have agreed to marry you and try to keep his independence, with there being an expectation gap...leaving both of you unhappy.
(((LJ)))
Call me crazy but part of me thinks how much strength it must take for him to be this honest with you...even if it was initially by email. He knows how it will disappoint you. He must guess that he might lose you over it. He could have agreed to marry you and try to keep his independence, with there being an expectation gap...leaving both of you unhappy.
(((LJ)))
tanyachrs
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I don't want to live with anyone either. Personally.SweetErika said:
I feel like it's unfair to represent his opinion as something that needs to be overcome. He's being honest about how he feels and he's not without reason. The need to belong is so universal that those of us who feel a stronger need to be alone seem alien but we're not wrong per se and I don't think we're sick in any way that can or should be cured through therapy.SweetErika said:
He is who he is. LadyJeanne, if you love him, you have to accept it that way. But in fairness to you he probably should have ended it himself when he realized how you felt. I can understand that as long as you two are together you're going to believe there's hope and he hasn't done a good enough job of making you understand that there's not hope. I think you should move on.
LadyJeanne
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It's such a cliche - man is afraid of marriage because he's afraid of losing his freedom!
He and I have different perspectives. I like the idea of us being a team. I know we'd be a great team. I think we'd be beat all the other teams and get the Championship t-shirt with the long sleeves. He, he is afraid of joining the team. He would need to be responsibile to the team. He doesn't want to worry about letting the team down.
I know he's not afraid of me. Maybe he's afraid of himself. Of wanting to "want to give his life away".
I'm afraid that now, because of this psychological barrier, he'll put up other barriers. Like, deliberately or subconsciously, he'll hold back and put up an intimacy barrier, afraid to get closer.
I'm seeing him tonight. I'll know if things feel different, if the walls have gone up.
He and I have different perspectives. I like the idea of us being a team. I know we'd be a great team. I think we'd be beat all the other teams and get the Championship t-shirt with the long sleeves. He, he is afraid of joining the team. He would need to be responsibile to the team. He doesn't want to worry about letting the team down.
I know he's not afraid of me. Maybe he's afraid of himself. Of wanting to "want to give his life away".
I'm afraid that now, because of this psychological barrier, he'll put up other barriers. Like, deliberately or subconsciously, he'll hold back and put up an intimacy barrier, afraid to get closer.
I'm seeing him tonight. I'll know if things feel different, if the walls have gone up.
LadyJeanne
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tanyachrs said:
I don't give up hope so easy, not when there's love. 20 years ago, we didn't love each other. 20 years ago, neither of us would have ever, ever imagined we'd be together the way we are now. Hell, two years ago, we were with other people.
That's a HUGE change for the both of us, one we would not have predicted or entertained. I can't change his mind, but we are certainly not beyond hope! Not when there's love.
