Here is a question that feminists would hate

[sunfox]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

So, this is what you really think of Dommes? They are just bitchy women to you? Or have I somehow misunderstood your posts?

I think that's just about it, ADR. Apparently, the only post he was interested in was one that validated his position.

The fact that lark isn't a Domme has also apparently escaped him.

Next thread: Are men genetically disposed to superiority complexes? Film at eleven.

 

[sunfox]

you mean its not your desire to submit for the sole and only reason of pleasing your master, no matter if he were to ask you to cut off a finger or jump off a bridge, just to see the light in his eyes? damn sunfox, you must not really be a submissive then..tsk tsk. please exit the forum.



</sarcasm>


all kidding aside, i like this answer. i desire to submit because it feels good to me as well. also because i enjoy to please him, and becasue it is my nature, but those aint the only reasons.

Oh no! I've been found out! *bursts into tears and leaves, tail drooping sadly*

I do enjoy pleasing my guy. But it pleases me to do so. So.. right. Submission feels good. *grins*

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

I think that's just about it, ADR. Apparently, the only post he was interested in was one that validated his position.

The fact that lark isn't a Domme has also apparently escaped him.

Next thread: Are men genetically disposed to superiority complexes? Film at eleven.

I would really love to hear from Shadows or Eb... two dommes who I highly respect. I think their take on this thread and a couple of the posts here would be interesting reading.

 

[NCShin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

So, this is what you really think of Dommes? They are just bitchy women to you? Or have I somehow misunderstood your posts?

no, but too often that is how they present themselves. At least how I see it anyway...maybe if I was submissive I wouldn't, who knows.

 

[sunfox]

What it appears like is that if a woman doesn't conform to your idea of what they should, she is perforce bitchy.

That sounds more like misogyny than belief that we're all subs at heart, waiting for a big strong man to take us in hand.

I'd also like to hear what Shadowsdream had to add to this.. as Eb, I believe, is on a hiatus?

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

no, but too often that is how they present themselves. At least how I see it anyway...maybe if I was submissive I wouldn't, who knows.

So, if one is a submissive, along your line of thinking, one cannot see the difference between a bitchy person and a dominate (domme) one?

Are you now saying that submissives are not very bright?

By the way... that's a mighty big paintbrush you use.

 

[lark sparrow]

Re: Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

about dommes, yes I do but i'm sure you wouldn't like any of them, start a thread. Submissive men, again, yes I do but that isn't the issue here, start your own thread.

So it really comes down to this - there are submissive women and then there are bitches. Women are incapable of doing the same thing male Dominants do without being submissive... or bitches. Any woman who does not agree with you is a bitch. Any woman who is a bitch probably considers herself a Domme. But Dommes don't really exist - only bitches who don't know their place in your very narrow, short-sighted and laughably overtly simplistic "world" view.

Not very Domly, in my bitchy opinion, bud!

Have I got that straight? That's probably because I'm a bitch, and not "submissive" by your standards... too many braincells, and not enough "natural instinct".

 

[the shadow of a boy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

['extraneous' content elided]...Have I got that straight? That's probably because I'm a bitch, and not "submissive" by your standards...['extraneous' content elided]

It's ok, baby. When you're ready, you'll find that you're every bit as capable of true submission as any other natural woman. You just haven't found an authentically dominant man to submit to yet...

(Yes, that is sarcasm/parody... which I thought I should point out, given that everyone missed the joke in my last post...)

 

[lark sparrow]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

It's ok, baby. When you're ready, you'll find that you're every bit as capable of true submission as any other natural woman. You just haven't found an authentically dominant man to submit to yet...

(Yes, that is sarcasm/parody... which I thought I should point out, given that everyone missed the joke in my last post...)

Yes, that's what I have always been told about sex (love/marriage/babycarriage) with men too. Let's not hold our breaths.

This isn't about BDSM - it's about traditional vanilla heterosexuality. At least NCShin and I are even - I don't believe he is a Dominant either. He'd better stick with his idea of a naturally submissive woman - I don't think he can handle the alternative.

 

[NCShin]

women are far more likely to avoid conflict by seeming to agree.

men are far more likely to assert their opinions as factual and valid, even when it is clear that they have absolutely no basis for thinking they could possibly answer the question.

the shadow of a boy,

I agree with this 100% But I wonder why that is. This is one of the many things that led to my asking of this question.

Learned trait.. not nature. I don't think it's biology that makes more women exhibit submissive behavior.. Nature makes us caretakers and nurturing. Society teaches us that it's unladylike to be strong and dominating.

Sunfox,

I think that is true. I do think that as girls grow up they are force fed submissive tendencies.

I would really love to hear from Shadows or Eb... two dommes who I highly respect. I think their take on this thread and a couple of the posts here would be interesting reading.

A Desert Rose,

While I'd love to read what they have to say, I'd also like to see what you think. You never really answered the question, only picked apart what I said in order to flame. You obviously don't agree, but instead of trying to start a flame war, how about you just post your opinion.

What it appears like is that if a woman doesn't conform to your idea of what they should, she is perforce bitchy.

That sounds more like misogyny than belief that we're all subs at heart, waiting for a big strong man to take us in hand.

Sunfox again,

I don't think all women are bitchy, far from it. What I do see as bitchy are comments like, "Glad I could clear that up!" and "Kudos for that one lack of assumptive suggestion." Hey, if there is some other way to read that without it sounding bitchy, then I just missed it. Maybe it was sarcasm, but I don't think so. I think she meant to be bitchy and was loud and clear on it.

I DO NOT think all women are submissive at heart or mind. I WONDER if all women are submissive genetically and biologically. I think there is a HUGE difference there. Some people here seem to be taking offense to this. I do not mean it offensively.

So, if one is a submissive, along your line of thinking, one cannot see the difference between a bitchy person and a dominate (domme) one?

Are you now saying that submissives are not very bright?

By the way... that's a mighty big paintbrush you use.

A Desert Rose,

pure flame bait.

Women are incapable of doing the same thing male Dominants do without being submissive... or bitches.

lark sparrow,

I'll concentrate on this line. This brings up some good points for me. Here is what I think. I think they sure can do the same thing male dominants do. I think they can be dominant. I think they can be every bit as dominant as the most dominant male. I think they can be sadists, or bitchy. I'm sure there are some guys out there that have some fantasy about a bitchy woman ordering him around.

What I am not sure of is if that is natural for them. Anyone can learn how to be dominant if they really want to. But I question if natural hormones force a predisposition towards one side for males and another side for females.

That is why I agree so much with ownedsubgal when she said this:

i have never encountered a man i could consider submissive. i have even sexually served male submissives (who were owned by Dommes) before, and always, when left alone with me, they were aggressive and demanding

 

[sunfox]

NCShin:

I don't think it can be even conjectured whether or not it is nature or nuture that makes women submissive. We have no basis to make the decision off, since every woman who will answer these posts has been raised in our current society, and has thus been 'tainted', if you will, by societal mores and beliefs from childhood.

I do, however, think it can safely be said that because a woman exhibits some sass or doesn't act the way a man may want her to act doesn't make her a bitch. If you seriously don't understand the insult inherent in your calling lark a bitch for being sarcastic, but then not qualifying the statement by saying that anyone, of any sex, who is sarcastic, is being a bitch... well, then I don't know what to tell you. It seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Women who speak their mind in an unladylike manner = bitches.
Men who speak their mind = Curious or seeking input.

That would be what we subs call... a double standard.

I will also point out that as OSG herself stated, her experience could be considered quite limited as to a range of submissive people. Her Master has no use for a submissive male, or a Domme female... so why would she encounter many of them? I've met many men who wanted me to dominate them. (Sub though I am, in personal encounters, I do tend to come across as self-assured... alpha bitch, if you will.) In point of fact, I can safely say that a majority of the men I know could be considered submissive to the women in their lives.. including my own father. I would equally say I know quite a lot of very strong, dominating women. As I said, I give off a dominating vibe myself, even though I am not a Domme.

I think your knowledge of a variety of people needs enlarging, if you truly believe it is so rare to find a woman who doesn't naturally wish to submit. In my experience, it's been quite the opposite. The desire to avoid fights doesn't make you submissive.. it makes you an adult.

My 02. cents, right after waking up. Probably only worth .02 canadian. And that ain't much.

 

[HoneyRyder62]

It depends on the person, I know that in public I'm completly submissive. It's from how i was raised, woman as slaves or whatever the whole sitting on the floor next to my partner serving food and cleaning thing I can't seem to get rid of but when it comes to the bedroom I dominate, completly. I miss the days i was dominated but I like being in control. Especially over women, the power to do what you want and know they love it is wonderful.

 

[Netzach]

offended?

No, this feminist (little F I don't join extracurricular clubs, usually) is just kind of bored by the question.

I don't think "male" and "female" has a lot to do with penises and vaginas anymore anyhow, so I'm just kind of jaded about the whole thing.

I never really fit into the "nurturing by nature" idea, where others hear the tick of the clock and feel a glow in the tummy when contemplating preganancy, I think of Alien and invasion of the body snatchers and a wave of nausea. So all I do know is that I'm probably not your average sample of femininity and the wiring, if there is, got crossed somewhere.

But I'm usually a pleasant, conciliatory, person. I don't have to pick every restaurant, win every battle, or anything. I just want to be left alone to my own devices and prefer a comprimise to being told what to do. And I'm a Domme. I'm definitely not submissive sexually or by nature, but I don't have to be the lead animal in every group, and I work and play well with others socially. To me, "Bitch" is defined by a certain desperation for control, that I like to think I usually lack. I really don't give a shit about things that someone I'd qualify as "a Bitch" might be paranoid.

Incidentally I can get fucked and go down and maintain a feeling of control. When someone doesn't have to reconcile control and penetrability, they tend to think no one else is able to make that leap....uh, guess again.

Fair is fair. I look at male Dominants and have to beat back the tendency to paint that whole world with the brush of little boys who need to enforce to feel securely loved, and I know that's not the case.

Always.

 

[Netzach]

offended?

No, this feminist (little F I don't join extracurricular clubs, usually) is just kind of bored by the question.

I don't think "male" and "female" has a lot to do with penises and vaginas anymore anyhow, so I'm just kind of jaded about the whole thing.

I never really fit into the "nurturing by nature" idea, where others hear the tick of the clock and feel a glow in the tummy when contemplating preganancy, I think of Alien and invasion of the body snatchers and a wave of nausea. So all I do know is that I'm probably not your average sample of femininity and the wiring, if there is, got crossed somewhere.

But I'm usually a pleasant, conciliatory, person. I don't have to pick every restaurant, win every battle, or anything. I just want to be left alone to my own devices and prefer a comprimise to being told what to do. And I'm a Domme. I'm definitely not submissive sexually or by nature, but I don't have to be the lead animal in every group, and I work and play well with others socially. To me, "Bitch" is defined by a certain desperation for control, that I like to think I usually lack. I really don't give a shit about things that someone I'd qualify as "a Bitch" might be paranoid about in the extreme.

Incidentally I can get fucked and go down and maintain a feeling of control. When someone doesn't have to reconcile control and penetrability, they tend to think no one else is able to make that leap....uh, guess again.

Fair is fair. I look at male Dominants and have to beat back the tendency to paint that whole world with the brush of little boys who need to enforce to feel securely loved, and I know that's not the case.

Always.

 

[lark sparrow]

It was indeed sarcasm - or can only men be sarcastic? women always bitchy. Frankly, I found it difficult to believe that someone would seriously ask the question 'are all women submissive'.

Let's look at this, with which you agree - "women are far more likely to avoid conflict by seeming to agree. men are far more likely to assert their opinions as factual and valid, even when it is clear that they have absolutely no basis for thinking they could possibly answer the question."

How do you explain this apparent lack of conformity? Women agree and avoid conflict, men state their opinion as fact. Several women have disagreed with you - a few women who even identify as submissives, bitchy submissives or not. It was a toss up for me on even answering, as it seemed so incredibly naïve - if you were not a regular poster, I'd have written it off as a troll post that should die a quiet death at the bottom of the forum.

What is the world coming to? What happened to plain old 'me tarzan, you jane'? When did things get so complicated? BDSM can be pretty sophisticated stuff, huh?

Glad to see you are refining your thoughts. I think that you would find there are some women who definitely fall into the parameters you have set, and the truth is that there is nothing wrong with it unless it is sanctioned for all women and men as you have suggested. People, biology and the world are far more complicated and diverse than this simplistic question allows for - even with the removal of sarcasm, my answer to your questions are no. Evidence lacking.

 

[the shadow of a boy]

..let's look at this, with which you agree - "women are far more likely to avoid conflict by seeming to agree. men are far more likely to assert their opinions as factual and valid, even when it is clear that they have absolutely no basis for thinking they could possibly answer the question."

How do you explain this apparent lack of conformity? Women agree and avoid conflict, men state their opinion as fact. Several women have disagreed with you - a few women who even identify as submissives, bitchy submissives or not. It was a toss up for me on even answering, as it seemed so incredibly naïve - if you were not a regular poster, I'd have written it off as a troll post that should die a quiet death at the bottom of the forum....

whaaaah! You're mean!

Is it safe to assume you were addressing NCShin rather than myself? Because my original post intended that second statement as self-referential irony. (ie, an irony that referred to the post itself.)

 

[sunfox]

whaaaah! You're mean!

Is it safe to assume you were addressing NCShin rather than myself? Because my original post intended that second statement as self-referential irony. (ie, an irony that referred to the post itself.)

No no.. she's a bitch! Get it right! *rolls up a newspaper and waves it threateningly*

But yes. I think she meant NCShin.

 

[lark sparrow]

Reframed for understanding into sarcasm and disagreement

Are all men naturally submissive?

I'm not trying to suggest that every man wants to be tied up and/or spanked.

But in recent discussions with some friends we found that we all agreed that most men that we've dated liked things that are often associated with D/s.

In another example, I have a male friend, who is vanilla. In talking, BDSM came up and he said that he'd love to "top" his wife. In further discussion, his idea of "topping" would be to tie her up, spread eagle on a bed.

At first this sounded fairly reasonable. But as he went on and talked about some things he'd like to do, all of them TO ME sounded like, <long pause as I try to find the word> umm...non dommish things to do.

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as opposed to a woman's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?

 

[Netzach]

www.elisesutton.com Meh.

everyone has their wacked out ideas about gender and D/s.

I don't really care as long as someone gets spanked in the end.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again.

It all looks like a nail when a hammer is the only tool in your arsenal.

 

[CharleyH]

now WD if you let this go without administerin a horsewhippin i will have to let my deaconship lapse and go forth in search of strong drink

Smiling, laughing . . . . but need to read the rest of the posts. Oh - you ARE a charmer

 

[sunfox]

Re: Reframed for understanding into sarcasm and disagreement

Are all men naturally submissive?

I'm not trying to suggest that every man wants to be tied up and/or spanked.

But in recent discussions with some friends we found that we all agreed that most men that we've dated liked things that are often associated with D/s.

In another example, I have a male friend, who is vanilla. In talking, BDSM came up and he said that he'd love to "top" his wife. In further discussion, his idea of "topping" would be to tie her up, spread eagle on a bed.

At first this sounded fairly reasonable. But as he went on and talked about some things he'd like to do, all of them TO ME sounded like, <long pause as I try to find the word> umm...non dommish things to do.

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as opposed to a woman's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?

*laughs*

 

[CharleyH]

No no.. she's a bitch! Get it right! *rolls up a newspaper and waves it threateningly*

But yes. I think she meant NCShin.

Agree with Sunfox almost all the way down the line. Listen up boys or girls!

Newspaper - LOL - hit patriarchy where it counts!
With its own hand . . .

CH

 

[NCShin]

Re: Reframed for understanding into sarcasm and disagreement

Are all men naturally submissive?

No I do not believe they are.

I'm not trying to suggest that every man wants to be tied up and/or spanked.

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as opposed to a woman's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?

Firstly I think that there are LOTS of men who would like to be tied up. Especially if their wives or girlfriends were going to get on top of them and fuck or suck them silly.

Second, mentally speaking, I think many men would enjoy that because most if not all of their lives they have been the aggressive one in the relationship.

Further, I think it is impossible for a man to be "naturally" submissive due to the high amounts of testosterone in him. This makes men aggressive. It's just what it does. No way around it. This isn't to say he can't submit, shouldn't submit, or wouldn't like to submit. It is just my opinion that the chemicals prohibit a true natural submissiveness.

 

[lark sparrow]

Re: Re: Reframed for understanding into sarcasm and disagreement

Firstly I think that there are LOTS of women who would like to be tied up. Especially if their husbands or boyfriends or girlfriends were going to get on top of them and fuck or suck them silly.

Second, mentally speaking, I think many women would enjoy that because most if not all of their lives they have been the aggressive one in the relationship.

Further, I think it is impossible for a woman to be "naturally" submissive due to the high amounts of estrogen in her. This makes women aggressive (especially during "that time of the month"!). It's just what it does. No way around it. This isn't to say she can't submit, shouldn't submit, or wouldn't like to submit. It is just my opinion that the chemicals prohibit a true natural submissiveness.

 

[the shadow of a boy]

Re: Re: Reframed for understanding into sarcasm and disagreement

...this makes men aggressive. It's just what it does. No way around it....
vs
Originally posted by lark sparrow
...this makes women aggressive (especially during "that time of the month"!). It's just what it does. No way around it....

NC, just admit that this woman could hog-tie you and make you oink like a piggy and have done with it.