Here is a question that feminists would hate

[sunfox]

To rephrase.. upper primates. Perhaps you personally identify with the howler, who is of lower intelligence, but I'll stick with the gorillas and chimpanzees. *ducks*

None of those examples you gave have much to do with dominance so much as leadership. A stallion, for example, leads and directs the herd.. but his lead mare is the boss. She creates order in the herd, and maintains the pecking order, keeps peace.. all so he can do his job as the stallion, and defend the herd from attack or being stolen by another male. The mare's position, in my view, would be quite dominant. In particular because stallions come and go, but the lead mare usually remains the same for years.

Hyenas are a matriarchal society, as a secondary example. All pack rank is taken from the mother's rank, and males are second rate citizens in all ways, including size and power.

I can go on like this all day, but to spare everyone, I won't. *laugh*

Your example is incomplete.. and not very well researched. Just call me Dr. Doolittle.

 

[catalina_francisco]

<edit>
I should say that I read that article to be not about dominance at all, but more about numbers. More females than males.

To pull in additional males there would have to be more females in a group than the alpha male could manage. As numbers grow, his chances of hanging on to his harem lessen. Scientists believe females develop sexual strategies to make this scenario more likely.

The female dominate the men by using sexual strategies.

FYI :
http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

I have been mentored by a Domme, I can tell you that females are in nothing inferior to men in dominance, if anything I would say that they have the advantage over men in that they have a natural tendency to use brains, charisma and sex to dominate while most men will have the tendency to resort to physical strength.

Females and males have differences and we should celebrate those differences, they make the world a lot more pleasant to live in, but in nothing are men superior to women and in nothing is a woman superior to a man. We are equal while celebrating our differences.

Francisco.

 

[NCShin]

I’m no zoologist, but I’m pretty sure that chimp = chimpanzee and gorillas are "upper" primates. What about orangutans? They aren't "upper" either?

Then you bring up horses...i'm not sure what relation we have with horses other than them being mammals. But, taking your example as fact, it still seems to me that the females only move on to keep the gene pool diverse.

 

[sunfox]

I’m no zoologist, but I’m pretty sure that chimp = chimpanzee and gorillas are "upper" primates. What about orangutans? They aren't "upper" either?

Then you bring up horses...i'm not sure what relation we have with horses other than them being mammals. But, taking your example as fact, it still seems to me that the females only move on to keep the gene pool diverse.

I've already clarified to you in PM about the chimps, et al, so I won't retype it here, because I'm impressively lazy. Orangutans are 'greater' primates, but not shown to be quite as intelligent as the chimps and gorillas in scientific study, from what I remember.

We are animals.. you're talking biological submission, male to female. Any animal example would therefore link. And the females don't move on The stallions frequently die in battle, either with other stallions, or with animals attacking the herd. A new stallion moves in, and the females continue to be bred, but he doesn't ever control them other than where they move to in their range. The lead mare does that.

Nice post, Francisco.

Edited to add: You can take my example of horse behavior as fact. I train, and we have thirteen horses. A very viable study sample, including several stallions, some geldings, and a big, moody, bossy group of mares, who completely run the entire place.

 

[lark sparrow]

I really don't know if I will be able to put into words exactly what I think of all this, but I'll give it a shot.


I agree with some of the things said in the original link, though not all.

I believe that human females biologically are programmed to submit. Sorry if that offends some of you, it is just my belief.

I also believe that females are actually superior to males. It is evident in a number of ways. Males have a higher infant mortality rate, they die of other "natural" reasons younger. They are more susceptible to various illnesses. (heart disease being on the top of that list)

Not only that, but their brains develop differently. I think this is due to thousands of years of evolution. Men would go out to hunt and women would stay around the village and do their thing. Maybe make clothes, gather berries or garden. I'm not expert on what they did exactly, but the point is that they were with each other and talked while they did it.

The men, while hunting, stealth was important. They didn't talk. Over the generations this made women's brains develop better communication skills. This is evident today in kids when the boy tries to ask his crush to a dance (or to dance once there) and stumbles over his words. He knows what he feels, and what he wants to say, but just doesn't have the social skills to get it done too well.

An ever so slight male advantage, with our hunting roots, our brains have a better way of dealing with 3 dimensional spaces. I think that is the root of males generally having an easier time with math than females have.

None of this is to say that these things can't be overcome. Women can certainly have just as good of math skills as men. I just think that for the majority of them, it takes a bit more work. Men can have just as good of communication skills, again, they just take longer to develop and more work on his part.

It would take someone much more educated than me to say if my beliefs hold merit or not. I am neither stating these things as fact nor am I trying to convince you I am right. I am just trying to give you an understanding of my thinking.

From the above, I can clearly see why you believe women and men are different on some levels. Although it would appear that women and men as a whole are somewhat different but fairly equal overall from your reasoning.

I didn't find "The Pig's" website all that offensive or especially unique or vile in most of his views. A bit uneducated and grasping at straws when he tries to promote his way as the only true biological way, but that's his own weakness. No matter gender, orientation, religion, race, etc. it would look just as ignorant promoting one's own comfort zone as the one true way for all by picking and choosing very specific "biological reasoning" while utterly ignoring others that don't support the view.

If it really is just "the way it is", wouldn't it be obvious? Enough so and standard enough not to have to plaster all over a website with a bad boy with scary thoughts sort of attitude?

I didn't see anything in there about "the sun rises each morning".

 

[sunfox]

From the above, I can clearly see why you believe women and men are different on some levels. Although it would appear that women and men as a whole are somewhat different but fairly equal overall from your reasoning.

I didn't find "The Pig's" website all that offensive or especially unique or vile in most of his views. A bit uneducated and grasping at straws when he tries to promote his way as the only true biological way, but that's his own weakness. No matter gender, orientation, religion, race, etc. it would look just as ignorant promoting one's own comfort zone as the one true way for all by picking and choosing very specific "biological reasoning" while utterly ignoring others that don't support the view.

If it really is just "the way it is", wouldn't it be obvious? Enough so and standard enough not to have to plaster all over a website with a bad boy with scary thoughts sort of attitude?

I didn't see anything in there about "the sun rises each morning".

What I've seen mostly is that our biological differences in behavior are somehow submissive/not up to par because they're not like men act. If it's not a masculine trait, it must be submissive. Well.. I don't pee standing up, so I guess I must be submissive... or wait. Am I dominant, because I get to sit while peeing, and you guys have to stand politely? *breaks out the riding crops... and boy do I have quite a collection* If I was Dominant, I'd be dangerous. *laughs*

 

[NCShin]

If it really is just "the way it is", wouldn't it be obvious? Enough so and standard enough not to have to plaster all over a website with a bad boy with scary thoughts sort of attitude?

Well, I don't think it's quite as clear cut in humans because we are a bit smarter than other animals. So while it's easy to see who is dominant in say horses, it isn't as easy to see in humans.

This comes from us having to do things that aren't natural. In the website he uses an example of a cop pulling him over. This is a good example because you're submitting to the uniform and not the person behind it.

Anyway, I'm just going to sit back and read for a while. I'm quite happy with this thread, even though I likely made an enemy or 2 and learned more about horses and apes than I planned to

 

[lark sparrow]

Yes, it's an "opposite" point of view, from "opposite sex".

I consider myself dominant and I am male... it all falls into perfect place from there... LOL... so much so that they need to go back to "prehistory" to "prove" the point as they don't have enough present day evidence.

Did you know that dinosaurs rule the earth? But dinosaurs don't exist anymore. Yes, but they did and they ruled! Say it with me - dinosaurs rule the earth!

Did you know that male dogs are generally bigger than female dogs? Yes, but what about male chihuahuas vs. female great danes?

Crops sound like a much more interesting topic.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Yes, it's an "opposite" point of view, from "opposite sex".

I consider myself dominant and I am male... it all falls into perfect place from there... LOL... so much so that they need to go back to "prehistory" to "prove" the point as they don't have enough present day evidence.

Did you know that dinosaurs rule the earth? But dinosaurs don't exist anymore. Yes, but they did and they ruled! Say it with me - dinosaurs rule the earth!

Did you know that male dogs are generally bigger than female dogs? Yes, but what about male chihuahuas vs. female great danes?

Crops sound like a much more interesting topic.

weird...i always pictured lark sparrow as a female lesbian bottom....oy. what a headfuck.

 

[lark sparrow]

This comes from us having to do things that aren't natural. In the website he uses an example of a cop pulling him over. This is a good example because you're submitting to the uniform and not the person behind it.

Yes, but what would a caveman do if faced with a blue uniform? Isn't that what we are talking about?

*CLUB!*

Always want to have it both ways, where convenient.

 

[sunfox]

weird...i always pictured lark sparrow as a female lesbian bottom....oy. what a headfuck.

She's sneaky.. you never know just what lark will be next.

 

[lark sparrow]

I think I'm sophisticated
'Cos I'm living my life like a good homosapien
But all around me everybody's multiplying
Till they're walking round like flies man
So I'm no better than the animals sitting in their cages
in the zoo man
'Cos compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees
I am an ape man
I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized
'Cos I'm a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
And the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man
I'm an ape man I'm a King Kong man I'm ape ape man
I'm an ape man
'Cos compared to the sun that sits in the sky
compared to the clouds as they roll by
Compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies
I am an ape man
In man's evolution he has created the cities and
the motor traffic rumble, but give me half a chance
and I'd be taking off my clothes and living in the jungle
'Cos the only time that I feel at ease
Is swinging up and down in a coconut tree
Oh what a life of luxury to be like an ape man
I'm an ape, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man
I look out my window, but I can't see the sky
'Cos the air pollution is fogging up my eyes
I want to get out of this city alive
And make like an ape man
Come and love me, be my ape man girl
And we will be so happy in my ape man world
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man
I'll be your Tarzan, you'll be my Jane
I'll keep you warm and you'll keep me sane
and we'll sit in the trees and eat bananas all day
Just like an ape man
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man.
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore
And make like an ape man.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I got one for all you fee males who think you are so dominant.

POTUS.

Never was, never is, never will be no fee male POTUS.

now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

dixit p )

rosco

 

[Netzach]

There's not going to be a Jewish one or a Black one any time in the near millenia, so what's the deal here?

We need to decide if we are talking about sexual psychoscapes or postmod workaday reality. That, my friend, dictates that I am more likely to be senslessly raped and murdered than you are, I don't think that means I *am* more submissive.

 

[Netzach]

as for the article in question, he has an affable reasonably intelligent voice of assholeness and I actually LIKE his "what is a Dom" viewpoint. Dangerously close to my Dom as Mom theory, if you take the gender polarization out.

I also like his hierarchy
her needs
my needs
my wants
her wants

it's a very clean and elegant way to dispense info that the gay geared www.bornslaves.com takes eons to express.

I actually find the gender postulations to be pretty dated (the Dominant in the relationship is not always the bringer of the bacon, the higher salary, so his analysis of why Femdom doesn't work is flawed)

if it's all so gender bound there'd be no queers playing the game, would there?

But even he acknowledges "exceptions" to his universal theories. The problem is that so many people seem to see themselves as "exceptions" that it's pretty un-universal when you are done.

 

[bridgeburner]

Netzach,

You're more likely to be raped but Rosco's more likely to be murdered. Ask any insurance agent.


-B

 

[bridgeburner]

But even he acknowledges "exceptions" to his universal theories. The problem is that so many people seem to see themselves as "exceptions" that it's pretty un-universal when you are done.

"Never forget that you're unique.....just like everybody else."
by T. Shirt

 

[rosco rathbone]

Netzach,

You're more likely to be raped but Rosco's more likely to be murdered. Ask any insurance agent.


-B

Also to perish in the practice of my trade.

 

[rosco rathbone]

There's not going to be a Jewish one or a Black one any time in the near millenia, so what's the deal here?

White men are the most dominate of all? Must think this through.

 

[Priapus2004]

I got one for all you fee males who think you are so dominant.

POTUS.

Never was, never is, never will be no fee male POTUS.

now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

dixit p )

rosco

May I interject?

Maybe not an elected POTUS but we've already had at least two I can think of in the recent past. In the early part of Mr. Clinton's term there was Hillary, and we certainly can't forget Nancy Reagan.

As for the male being dominant, the church has had much to do with this premise. The church has taken many pagan ideals which were dominated by the feminine and turned them around to make them masculinely dominated.

As the saying goes...You can't fool MOTHER nature.

 

[rosco rathbone]

May I interject?

Maybe not an elected POTUS but we've already had at least two I can think of in the recent past. In the early part of Mr. Clinton's term there was Hillary, and we certainly can't forget Nancy Reagan.

As for the male being dominant, the church has had much to do with this premise. The church has taken many pagan ideals which were dominated by the feminine and turned them around to make them masculinely dominated.

As the saying goes...You can't fool MOTHER nature.

ahem

As far as the distant, pastoral, Arcadian matriarchal pagan past goes; we'll return to those glory days on or about the same date we give up our iPods, SUVS, plasma TV's and what not...in short, the fruits of dominate white male science (ok, Greeks too--are they white?).

 

[catalina_francisco]

breaks out the riding crops... and boy do I have quite a collection* If I was Dominant, I'd be dangerous. *laughs*

Talking here out of experience any woman with a riding crop and a brain is dangerous.

Me being big dangerous dominant male am in hiding until sunfox puts those riding crops away.


Francisco.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Talking here out of experience any woman with a riding crop and a brain is dangerous.

Me being big dangerous dominant male am in hiding until sunfox puts those riding crops away.


Francisco.

This, of course, falling into the condescending, patriarchal, "yes dear, you are certainly worthy of respect, *pat pat*" category.....you are too much, cisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This, of course, falling into the condescending, patriarchal, "yes dear, you are certainly worthy of respect, *pat pat*" category.....you are too much, cisco.

No rosco this falling in the catagory.

I am a coward and do not want to be whipped or cropped by an angry woman.

One of the differences between and a sadist and a masochist is that a sadist enoys giving pain not receiving.

Francisco.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Are all women naturally submissive?

I'm not trying to suggest that every woman wants to be tied up and/or spanked.

But in recent discussions with some friends we found that we all agreed that most women that we've dated liked things that are often associated with D/s.

In another example, I have a female friend, who is vanilla. In talking, BDSM came up and she said that she'd love to "top" her husband. In further discussion, her idea of "topping" would be to tie him up, spread eagle on a bed.

At first this sounded fairly reasonable. But as she went on and talked about some things she'd like to do, all of them TO ME sounded like, <long pause as I try to find the word> umm...non dommish things to do.

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as apposed to a man's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?

I suppose One would have to break this topic up and dissect it word for word to fully understand the topic and its intent. But I would prefer to simplify the thought process so as not to further muddy the perceptions

submissive...what does this word say to YOU?
Do you make a distinction between Topping and Dominating?
In your opinion what does instinctive submission and D/s really have to do with each other?

My opinion on the general topic as presented...nothing simply IS just BECAUSE!