hey KillerMuffin- or anyone who might know-?
- Thread starter MlledeLaPlumeBleu
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MlledeLaPlumeBleu
Literotica Guru
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I hope you know you're reading the resurrection text straight from Pure's personal Necronomicon!
rosco rathbone
1. f3e5 2. g4??
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MlledeLaPlumeBleu said:
The ouevre of the demon is noticeably grey-area free. You won't find me defending it on that basis; hellno.
Sorry to "house" your man 'Pop'. I get a big "There Goes The Prophet/ The Emperor's New Clothes" kick out of trying to spot passive/ understated/ under-the-radar....subjugation-of-womanisme ??? (need a good portmanteau-word here) wherever I can. The idea of "degrees of rape" struck me as "foot-in-mouth" and gave me a jolly.
As far as the not-sick-or-wrongness of the righteous goes; I agree wholeheartedly. Without them; I wouldn't be able to "keep secks evil."
rosco rathbone
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MlledeLaPlumeBleu said:
Bite your tongue. Ye speak of dark dieties; they'll hark to ye.
G
Guest
Guest
Hey Rosco, hombre. Looked at your profile, love all the monikers.
Perdita
Perdita
rosco rathbone
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perdita said:Hey Rosco, hombre. Looked at your profile, love all the monikers.
Perdita
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Pops //As I said some sick fuckers about out there//
As I said with far too many words in a recent post here, it** doesn't matter a damn regarding stories/poems/operas etc. The work either has a degree of artistic merit or not, end of story. That's the artistic/literary issue.
I actually believe Mlle agrees with this, as per her comments on whether an arty version of AD's story might work, i.e., hold some artistic value in her eyes. But she can protest if not.
'Sick fuckers' 'nasty criminals' may be a personal security issue if you know they're living down the street from you, or your daughter. In imminent danger one calls the cops, one doesn't post a character critique on an electronic forum.
**Added: the author's 'sickness'
As I said with far too many words in a recent post here, it** doesn't matter a damn regarding stories/poems/operas etc. The work either has a degree of artistic merit or not, end of story. That's the artistic/literary issue.
I actually believe Mlle agrees with this, as per her comments on whether an arty version of AD's story might work, i.e., hold some artistic value in her eyes. But she can protest if not.
'Sick fuckers' 'nasty criminals' may be a personal security issue if you know they're living down the street from you, or your daughter. In imminent danger one calls the cops, one doesn't post a character critique on an electronic forum.
**Added: the author's 'sickness'
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destinie21
Daddy's Brat
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Just a friendly note
Hit like a man let them know you’re a man
Put all your power behind that fist
You’re the ruler of this land.
and as the sand falls through the hourglass
I hope this love lasts
and all the pain surpasses.
I’m tired of the lashes
bruises I tell others are rashes.
Oval sunglasses cover my eye.
But baby my lip.
I told my mother I stumbled and tripped.
She thinks I’m clumsy or I take to many sips of the wine.
Which inclines me to feel fine
and eases the humiliation of how you beat my behind.
Now I know you’re under pressure from work and the world
but please watch how you hit me in front of our little girl.
She doesn’t understand this abuse her father feeds there’s no believable excuse,
the truth in my eyes she reads.
In her eyes I see disappointment and confusion
she sheds tears over broken limbs and severe contusions
I want our family so I choose not to leave.
Tired of being thrown like a rag doll by my sleeve.
Sick by the situation so I constantly heave.
I can’t make her believe
this is love I receive
It’s a hard pill to swallow
But this program I just can’t follow
I’m starting to believe your heart is hollow
and full of hate
hoping it will get better so I wait
praying stupidity isn’t an inhertable trait
I don’t want our daughter to live a life of cover ups and cries
standing in before a judge giving feeble alibies
Loving a man so much she loses herself
hating herself so much she gives a damn about her health
For who wants to live just to suffer?
Pain is inevitable it only makes you tougher
but see suffering is optional and I’ve made my choice
For my little girl I’ll be
her hero
her example and
her voice
I will not allow her future to be a replay of my existence
I had to break free of this jail, and end my life sentence
I tried to go quietly but you slapped me in my face, kicked me in my stomach ,
tore my shirt and out my mouth you slapped the taste
As I got up from the floor I stared you in your eyes
And realized the burning hell brewing on the inside
Knowing there was no place I could run or hide
my only escape would be your utter demise
I can’t hit like a man
and I hate to pull the trigger
but let your life be a lesson to all those pussy ass ni**as
Hit like a man let them know you’re a man
Put all your power behind that fist
You’re the ruler of this land.
and as the sand falls through the hourglass
I hope this love lasts
and all the pain surpasses.
I’m tired of the lashes
bruises I tell others are rashes.
Oval sunglasses cover my eye.
But baby my lip.
I told my mother I stumbled and tripped.
She thinks I’m clumsy or I take to many sips of the wine.
Which inclines me to feel fine
and eases the humiliation of how you beat my behind.
Now I know you’re under pressure from work and the world
but please watch how you hit me in front of our little girl.
She doesn’t understand this abuse her father feeds there’s no believable excuse,
the truth in my eyes she reads.
In her eyes I see disappointment and confusion
she sheds tears over broken limbs and severe contusions
I want our family so I choose not to leave.
Tired of being thrown like a rag doll by my sleeve.
Sick by the situation so I constantly heave.
I can’t make her believe
this is love I receive
It’s a hard pill to swallow
But this program I just can’t follow
I’m starting to believe your heart is hollow
and full of hate
hoping it will get better so I wait
praying stupidity isn’t an inhertable trait
I don’t want our daughter to live a life of cover ups and cries
standing in before a judge giving feeble alibies
Loving a man so much she loses herself
hating herself so much she gives a damn about her health
For who wants to live just to suffer?
Pain is inevitable it only makes you tougher
but see suffering is optional and I’ve made my choice
For my little girl I’ll be
her hero
her example and
her voice
I will not allow her future to be a replay of my existence
I had to break free of this jail, and end my life sentence
I tried to go quietly but you slapped me in my face, kicked me in my stomach ,
tore my shirt and out my mouth you slapped the taste
As I got up from the floor I stared you in your eyes
And realized the burning hell brewing on the inside
Knowing there was no place I could run or hide
my only escape would be your utter demise
I can’t hit like a man
and I hate to pull the trigger
but let your life be a lesson to all those pussy ass ni**as
G
Guest
Guest
As simply as I can possibly put this:Pure said:
Thing is, AD's story is not art; however well or ill-written is a matter of some opinion, but that's not the point. My opinion: given all I've heard of it, it cannot be art. If somehow AD rewrote it so that it might be deemed art, then it would not be the original work and there would be no discussion or protest. It is my opinion that what he wrote is not art but a useless and offensive portrayal of gratuitious violence against women.
E.g., Kurosawa's depiction of rape in "Rashomon" is art; a rape in a smut film is not, nor is AD's now defunct work. Also my opinion: the majority of the work on Lit. is not art, nor is the majority of the work on Lit. very well written. However, a minority of all this work is an offensive portrayal of gratuitious violence against women.
For the record, or whatever: I am speaking up, not to argue with Pure or anyone else, but to stand up for myself and all women who are plagued by violence, gratuituous and real, against them.
Lit.'s rules do not matter anymore. However AD's story should have been classified does not matter. Whether AD's story serves as stroke for anyone does not matter. Repeat: what matters is that violence against women should be at the heart of the matter. It seems it is not; that is all.
Perdita
rosco rathbone
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Thinking of the famous Singin' In The Rain scene in A Clockwork Orange. That scene is, to me, one of the most visceral images of the sheer, life-affirming joy of hurting others-yet it is part of an overall vision: a depiction of gratuitous violence rather than a gratuitous depiction of violence.
AD's story didn't really have that "written-to-shock" feel. That's why it caught my attention-it seemed like a scream from an unlettered soul; especially when taken side-by-side with his versifications. I suppose my interest is mainly psychological.
AD's story didn't really have that "written-to-shock" feel. That's why it caught my attention-it seemed like a scream from an unlettered soul; especially when taken side-by-side with his versifications. I suppose my interest is mainly psychological.
G
Guest
Guest
Gracias a el senor Rathbone, very nicely put.
Perdita
(I love Kubrick, "even" his last film.)
Perdita
(I love Kubrick, "even" his last film.)
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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I think it [Perdita's point] can be put much more simply though with less passion and eloquence:
1) You believe AD's SUV/rape story NOT to be art (based, apparently, on some excerpts you have read), the majority of stories at literotica not being artistic or or well written, either; while a minority are, like "SUV, " offensive portrayals of gratuitous violence against women.
2) The subject of rape could be handled with artistry, as in the movie Rashomon. [Added: where it's a plot device that fits in with a larger artistic purpose beyond depicting the details of a rape.]
3) You feel that "what matters" is standing up against violence against women; that's the 'heart of the matter' in your view, but maybe not others' who are not named.
---
1), 2) and 3), except the last clause, are pretty much agreed by all. I trust nothing essential has been left out.
1) You believe AD's SUV/rape story NOT to be art (based, apparently, on some excerpts you have read), the majority of stories at literotica not being artistic or or well written, either; while a minority are, like "SUV, " offensive portrayals of gratuitous violence against women.
2) The subject of rape could be handled with artistry, as in the movie Rashomon. [Added: where it's a plot device that fits in with a larger artistic purpose beyond depicting the details of a rape.]
3) You feel that "what matters" is standing up against violence against women; that's the 'heart of the matter' in your view, but maybe not others' who are not named.
---
1), 2) and 3), except the last clause, are pretty much agreed by all. I trust nothing essential has been left out.
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G
Guest
Guest
Just a quibble for clarity and because I would never want it thought I see anything simplistic about Kurosawa-san.Pure said:
The rape in Roshamon is not the subject or focus of the film but a brilliant and eloquent plot device for the main intent, which I have not time to explain here (there are books on it for those who are interested). It's not so much that the rape is handled with artistry, as that the "whole" work is art and the rape one filmic device in form and content.
Perd
ffreak
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Perdita, you go girl. I fully agree. And in literature, there is one rape scene in Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series - and it is no more than a depiction of what he sees as not real (I still think the work could have done without it).
DS, castration does not keep the sickos from using something else as a spike-edged dildo. Wish it did, perhaps lobotomy would be safer for society.
I wonder if stories like Andrew Vachss writes would fit in non-consent or extreme. I like his Burke character because I can identify where he is coming from - that evil cannot be cured.
Mlle - I love your line...
It's like glueing googly eyes and yarn on a turd and telling some kid "Hey, look! It's a doll!"
I think a person who writes their feelings as a better outlet than acting them is doing the right thing. I (probably naively) hope that the authors in those two categories are of my description. It scares me to think otherwise.
DS, castration does not keep the sickos from using something else as a spike-edged dildo. Wish it did, perhaps lobotomy would be safer for society.
I wonder if stories like Andrew Vachss writes would fit in non-consent or extreme. I like his Burke character because I can identify where he is coming from - that evil cannot be cured.
Mlle - I love your line...
It's like glueing googly eyes and yarn on a turd and telling some kid "Hey, look! It's a doll!"
I think a person who writes their feelings as a better outlet than acting them is doing the right thing. I (probably naively) hope that the authors in those two categories are of my description. It scares me to think otherwise.
rosco rathbone
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ffreak said:
Weird. My reaction to that rape scene, in the beginning of Lord Foul's Bane, was a pimply, goggle-eyed, twelve-year-old shock of lust and recognition. I'd have to say, in retrospect, that it was my first experience of feeling my own, unfocused psychosexuality mirrored in something existing in the outside world. First realization that sex could be something other than "Mommy and Daddy love each other so much. They hug and kiss and then Daddy puts his penis in Mommy's vagina because he wants to be as close to her as he can" (Actual more-or-less quote from the book I was given to explain sex.) Something other than The Joy Of Sex, or that other book my parents had lying around; a sextionary full of glossy, tasteful black-and-white photographs of late-sixties, young-Micheal-Caine-looking types lovingly intercourseing lovingly glowing hippie goddesses with waist-length hair.
As I recall; hero's shame and guilt following the rape is the key to his motivation for the rest of his adventures; so I don't see how that scene could have been done without. Perhaps you are reacting to the way the rape was described-a rape's-eye-view if you will-as a moment of lust, passion and objectification-of-the-victim. I think there are good artistic reasons for this.
ffreak
old man
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I agree that virtually every mention in of the rape in the first 4 books of the series was portrayed as how guilty he felt and how much he owed the people in the land to make up for it. I just don't think the realistic description of the brutal way set well with me. It did stay with me, seeing as how I read the book when it was first printed.
Nor am I saying that the mention that someone was raped should be left out of all literature. I think that the concept of 'rape' is that one of the people is saying no (and I don't draw a distinction about head games where people claim that saying no is really saying yes) and the sexual act goes ahead anyway, even if that means physical harm as well as mental harm ensues. Just not my cup of tea. Now afterward, the healing process is completely different and can be explored to great satisfaction.
I guess in the end, I just always want to have a happier ending. My reference to the Burke character, someone who acts out vengeance upon those who victimize children for sex, may be a warped interpretation of a happy ending, but he generally tries to get life back to normal or at least safer for the kids (even if they are grown).
Nor am I saying that the mention that someone was raped should be left out of all literature. I think that the concept of 'rape' is that one of the people is saying no (and I don't draw a distinction about head games where people claim that saying no is really saying yes) and the sexual act goes ahead anyway, even if that means physical harm as well as mental harm ensues. Just not my cup of tea. Now afterward, the healing process is completely different and can be explored to great satisfaction.
I guess in the end, I just always want to have a happier ending. My reference to the Burke character, someone who acts out vengeance upon those who victimize children for sex, may be a warped interpretation of a happy ending, but he generally tries to get life back to normal or at least safer for the kids (even if they are grown).
rosco rathbone
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I tried to read one of those Vacchs-books and had a strong antipathic reaction. I find the America's-Most-Wanted/ Vacchs syndrome to be quite creepy; for reasons that I haven't thought about enough. That's one reason that Happiness is one of my favorite movies of all time. After viewing that film, I have to nominate Todd Solondsz for the Anti John Walsh.
You sort of lost me here.
ffreak said:
You sort of lost me here.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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For Comment
Interviewer: Previously you've pointed out that there is a difference between what is shocking, and what is offensive. Is it okay to do both with respect to writing? Is it okay to be offensive?
Author: You have to ask yourself: what is offensive? Everyone has their own different list of what is offensive and what is not. I don't think there's anything offensive that you can do in writing. There's nothing you can do that's going to offend me in a book unless it's really stupid writing and it's a really stupid idea for a book or you've got moronic dialogue or stuff that really rings false. That will offend me. But in terms of subject--you can write about pedophiles, someone who slays thousands of people, a corrupt politician--none of that is going to offend me. But if you really handle it poorly on an aesthetic level, then I'm going to be probably more upset. But I don't think there's any topic you can touch that's going to be offensive to me.
Interviewer: Just the way that it might be presented.
Author: Yeah, it is really, ultimately, about presentation and it's also about, at least from my point of view, style and how you present your material. I think it's very hard because of how we've been pulverized by visual images to be genuinely shocked by what we read in a book. I find it very rare to come across something where I'm gasping. I might gasp at some kind of revelation that happens in the book, but it's rarely a scene of sexuality or a scene of violence that makes me freak out. It's usually something more subtle than that.
---
bee ready; reference to follow in due course.
Interviewer: Previously you've pointed out that there is a difference between what is shocking, and what is offensive. Is it okay to do both with respect to writing? Is it okay to be offensive?
Author: You have to ask yourself: what is offensive? Everyone has their own different list of what is offensive and what is not. I don't think there's anything offensive that you can do in writing. There's nothing you can do that's going to offend me in a book unless it's really stupid writing and it's a really stupid idea for a book or you've got moronic dialogue or stuff that really rings false. That will offend me. But in terms of subject--you can write about pedophiles, someone who slays thousands of people, a corrupt politician--none of that is going to offend me. But if you really handle it poorly on an aesthetic level, then I'm going to be probably more upset. But I don't think there's any topic you can touch that's going to be offensive to me.
Interviewer: Just the way that it might be presented.
Author: Yeah, it is really, ultimately, about presentation and it's also about, at least from my point of view, style and how you present your material. I think it's very hard because of how we've been pulverized by visual images to be genuinely shocked by what we read in a book. I find it very rare to come across something where I'm gasping. I might gasp at some kind of revelation that happens in the book, but it's rarely a scene of sexuality or a scene of violence that makes me freak out. It's usually something more subtle than that.
---
bee ready; reference to follow in due course.
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G
Guest
Guest
Pure: not bad.
RR: I love "Happiness" too, and all of Solondsz; waiting for more.
You seem to read philosophy, and mentioned the psych interest; if you haven't, take a look at Slovoj Zizek, esp., "Enjoy Your Symptom" and "Everything You Wanted to Know about Lacan, But Were Afraid to Ask". He's amazingly hilarious. Or not.
Perdita
RR: I love "Happiness" too, and all of Solondsz; waiting for more.
You seem to read philosophy, and mentioned the psych interest; if you haven't, take a look at Slovoj Zizek, esp., "Enjoy Your Symptom" and "Everything You Wanted to Know about Lacan, But Were Afraid to Ask". He's amazingly hilarious. Or not.
Perdita
G
Guest
Guest
FF, how about this?ffreak said:
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
Touchstone, the fool, speaks it in "As You Like It".
Me, I know good in people more often than not, and merely hope for more.
Perdita
ffreak
old man
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Sorry, Perdita's Slovenian references distracted me. Well, she distracts me anyway - in a good way that is. I think she'd make a helluva morning coffee klatch mate. (You know its really really hard to make a sentence in reference to some of these ladies without infusing another meaning.)
Vachss is difficult for most people to take. But he has a heart of gold when it comes to protecting the children. I have a nephew who was molested at the age of four. The bastard father who misused him and his five-year old sister went to prison. There he sued to have the boy brought to him for visitation. Lawyers in TN said there was nothing they could do. I called Vachss, who answered his own phone, and he wrote a letter. The scum served his full term.
But that is not what hooked me on his books. It was a memory of when I was six - and no one believing me. So reading about Burke is cathartic for me.
A long way around the mountain, I know, but here is where I am driving...
We have categories here for non-consensual sex, where I hope the action is limited to the written word, and extreme (where I have not even had the courage to scan titles) where I hope the horror is also limited to the page. But is there a category for the opposite type of a story? One where protective vengeance is the intent, and where compassion leavens the darkness?
Vachss is difficult for most people to take. But he has a heart of gold when it comes to protecting the children. I have a nephew who was molested at the age of four. The bastard father who misused him and his five-year old sister went to prison. There he sued to have the boy brought to him for visitation. Lawyers in TN said there was nothing they could do. I called Vachss, who answered his own phone, and he wrote a letter. The scum served his full term.
But that is not what hooked me on his books. It was a memory of when I was six - and no one believing me. So reading about Burke is cathartic for me.
A long way around the mountain, I know, but here is where I am driving...
We have categories here for non-consensual sex, where I hope the action is limited to the written word, and extreme (where I have not even had the courage to scan titles) where I hope the horror is also limited to the page. But is there a category for the opposite type of a story? One where protective vengeance is the intent, and where compassion leavens the darkness?
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