rosco rathbone
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If a fool would persist in his folly; he would become wise.
W Blake
W Blake
hey KillerMuffin- or anyone who might know-?
- Thread starter MlledeLaPlumeBleu
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Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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ffreak spoke of novels that uplift and also mentioned the novels of Vacchs, an advocate in the area of child abuse.
Here's an interesting critical article:
http://www.capital.net/~phuston/vacchs.html
The gist is that in the novel in question, vacchs crusading commitments weaken a particular novel; the critic being favorably impressed with at least some of his others.
That's the fear, ffreak, of 'extra-literary commitments', of the project you mentioned, of seeing darkness leavened. Lots of fairly tales are now 'leavened' thanks to Disney studios.
Commited agenda'd novels, be they stalinist maoist or right wing, (Ayn Rand) tend to be weak. There are brilliant exceptions, of course, as in Graham Greene who was superb and clearly commited to Catholicism.
Here's an interesting critical article:
http://www.capital.net/~phuston/vacchs.html
The gist is that in the novel in question, vacchs crusading commitments weaken a particular novel; the critic being favorably impressed with at least some of his others.
That's the fear, ffreak, of 'extra-literary commitments', of the project you mentioned, of seeing darkness leavened. Lots of fairly tales are now 'leavened' thanks to Disney studios.
Commited agenda'd novels, be they stalinist maoist or right wing, (Ayn Rand) tend to be weak. There are brilliant exceptions, of course, as in Graham Greene who was superb and clearly commited to Catholicism.
ffreak
old man
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Good catch. Let me say my intent a little more carefully.
I did not mean to mix Vachss work with 'uplifting' novels. I think Holes is uplifting (and funny and well deserved the Newberry). I think the Eighth Day is uplifting (it has a great line from one of the main characters a Downs person who converts the name Mongoloid into a dream where he is the leader of the Golden Horde looking for his princess who looks just like him).
For me Vachss provides a voyeuristic sense of vengeance that I can't help but wish were visited upon all child molesters. And I'm not arguing age of consent based on where you are. I mean those that take true innocents and harm them.
I fully agree that when anyone tries to write with an agenda they have an extra burden to suspend the readers sense of disbelief. Look at Harriott. But also look at Dickens. We may not notice his agenda as much today, but he was vilified for preaching against the accepted practices of his day.
Will Vachss be great? I don't think so. But he does deal in that other side that I still wonder if there is a place for in erotica (whew).
As for leavening, I don't mean the Plasticine of story to make it palatable to be pandered to children (puh-lease!). I mean the simple addition of human compassion in a bad situation and examining where that may lead two adults.
One of the worst things I see in real-life rape is where the man still acts, even today, as if the act was either the woman's fault, or simply runs away because he can't handle it. When many times all the other party (not always a woman) only needs the reassurance that their world was not destroyed by the attack.
OK, I ramble - just the result of a degenerate mind.
I did not mean to mix Vachss work with 'uplifting' novels. I think Holes is uplifting (and funny and well deserved the Newberry). I think the Eighth Day is uplifting (it has a great line from one of the main characters a Downs person who converts the name Mongoloid into a dream where he is the leader of the Golden Horde looking for his princess who looks just like him).
For me Vachss provides a voyeuristic sense of vengeance that I can't help but wish were visited upon all child molesters. And I'm not arguing age of consent based on where you are. I mean those that take true innocents and harm them.
I fully agree that when anyone tries to write with an agenda they have an extra burden to suspend the readers sense of disbelief. Look at Harriott. But also look at Dickens. We may not notice his agenda as much today, but he was vilified for preaching against the accepted practices of his day.
Will Vachss be great? I don't think so. But he does deal in that other side that I still wonder if there is a place for in erotica (whew).
As for leavening, I don't mean the Plasticine of story to make it palatable to be pandered to children (puh-lease!). I mean the simple addition of human compassion in a bad situation and examining where that may lead two adults.
One of the worst things I see in real-life rape is where the man still acts, even today, as if the act was either the woman's fault, or simply runs away because he can't handle it. When many times all the other party (not always a woman) only needs the reassurance that their world was not destroyed by the attack.
OK, I ramble - just the result of a degenerate mind.
G
Guest
Guest
FF: I have not the emotional energy or time to address the fine points you make, but I want you to know they are very much understood and appreciated. You get to the heart of the matter as no one has yet.
True consolation amidst tragedy is a rare gem.
regards, Perdita
True consolation amidst tragedy is a rare gem.
regards, Perdita
ffreak
old man
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btw Pure, I read that article and it is pretty good. The only thing I take real exception to is where he says:
"Unfortunately, repression is not a scientifically confirmed fact."
Someone better inform the field of psychoanalysis that a major area of controversy in the profession is just a figment of the analysts' collective minds. This puts a slant on the article which would stand better if it were simply a critique of the story.
I haven't read False Allegations yet, but I'm going to go find it and devour it (I don't know how I missed it).
I don't want to get into an analysis of the Burke character here or his 'growth' through several books.
What I do agree with is that it is criminal in and of itself when over-eager prosecutors and mental health pros intentionally lead a child or an adult to say what they want to hear for the sake of the old conviction rate and its political return.
Do I think there is such a thing as repressed memory? I've seen it within my own family (witnessing the initial trauma and the repression several years later in the victim). Do I think such memories should be rooted-out? Not unless the person is having problems that cause them to be unable to deal with everyday life. And never should they be guessed at and suggested as a memory to go after.
Where does that put me on the Catholic crisis (hows that for left field)? It's complicated. I am sure that there are people who were subject to priests that should never have had access to their parishioners - just like in other churches. The very title of priest, minister, bishop, etc. implies a person you can trust - which means that there will be people who abuse that trust. But like a cop being accused of brutality, I think the church should immediately suspend anyone accused while it is investigated (and I don't agree with shielding the priest from criminal investigators either). At the other end of this is the question, how many of those who 'remembered' after the scandal was made public have imagined memories? I don't want to belittle anyone who actually suffered abuse, I just think that there are people in society who want to be a part of the spotlight. How can you tell the difference? On whose side do we err?
Sorry, I'm rambling again. Yeah the subject hits close to home.
See what happens when I get a little encouragement?
I'm trying to stick with a new rule for myself - to write as many words on my stories each day as I write in the forums.
(God I love that ieSpell).
"Unfortunately, repression is not a scientifically confirmed fact."
Someone better inform the field of psychoanalysis that a major area of controversy in the profession is just a figment of the analysts' collective minds. This puts a slant on the article which would stand better if it were simply a critique of the story.
I haven't read False Allegations yet, but I'm going to go find it and devour it (I don't know how I missed it).
I don't want to get into an analysis of the Burke character here or his 'growth' through several books.
What I do agree with is that it is criminal in and of itself when over-eager prosecutors and mental health pros intentionally lead a child or an adult to say what they want to hear for the sake of the old conviction rate and its political return.
Do I think there is such a thing as repressed memory? I've seen it within my own family (witnessing the initial trauma and the repression several years later in the victim). Do I think such memories should be rooted-out? Not unless the person is having problems that cause them to be unable to deal with everyday life. And never should they be guessed at and suggested as a memory to go after.
Where does that put me on the Catholic crisis (hows that for left field)? It's complicated. I am sure that there are people who were subject to priests that should never have had access to their parishioners - just like in other churches. The very title of priest, minister, bishop, etc. implies a person you can trust - which means that there will be people who abuse that trust. But like a cop being accused of brutality, I think the church should immediately suspend anyone accused while it is investigated (and I don't agree with shielding the priest from criminal investigators either). At the other end of this is the question, how many of those who 'remembered' after the scandal was made public have imagined memories? I don't want to belittle anyone who actually suffered abuse, I just think that there are people in society who want to be a part of the spotlight. How can you tell the difference? On whose side do we err?
Sorry, I'm rambling again. Yeah the subject hits close to home.
See what happens when I get a little encouragement?
I'm trying to stick with a new rule for myself - to write as many words on my stories each day as I write in the forums.
(God I love that ieSpell).
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G
Guest
Guest
FF: I had in mind the RCC crisis when I wrote of consolation in my last post to you.
It is the one thing still missing from Rome in the whole awful business. The main agenda still seems to be the hierarchy and money.
I said to a Jesuit friend I was still waiting for just a smidgen of consolation from 'the church', and he sadly said, "Me too."
Perdita
It is the one thing still missing from Rome in the whole awful business. The main agenda still seems to be the hierarchy and money.
I said to a Jesuit friend I was still waiting for just a smidgen of consolation from 'the church', and he sadly said, "Me too."
Perdita
rosco rathbone
1. f3e5 2. g4??
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Folly is the cloke of knavery
WB
WB
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Hi ff,
I haven't read Vachss, but I gather from interviews and articles that he wants his novels, esp. the Burke ones, to stir up people to take action to prevent and punish child molestation. Show them real evil types who (I'm guessing) almost get away with it, so that they'll get really angry. Then perhaps have some satisfying violence or revenge against the fiend.
Again, going by the review, 'False Allegations' went somewhat overboard: The example given was the the spokes person for the view opposing Vachss, kept a secret evil identity and turned out to be involved with the Russian mafia and iirc child porn. This one might call, 'heavy handed'. As with the liberals in Rand novels. (None of this tentative criticism is meant to detract from the worth of Vachss' NON literary efforts to expose and punish abusers.)
Fair enough, you can use a novel for many purposes. "Uncle Tom's Cabin" moved many thousands to tears with its portrayal of Black people's suffering. Nowaday, it's generally called 'second rate' and iirc somewhat racist in respect of Black stereotypes.
[I'm going to leave 'repression' etc. and 'analysis' to another thread. Likewise the issue fo reforming the RCC. ]
I'm trying to remember the issue here: Is it perhaps, should a novel portray evil as undiluted, un-countered? should a novel just neutrally ('flat' prose) describe evil, like B. Ellis says he does in _American Psycho_? Must there be something more 'ringing' in the way of condemnation?
Those with a moral agenda don't like these things (undiluted evils, or 'flat' portrayals of it), and tend to think that 'flat' isn't good enough.. Evil people mustn't appeal reader's imagination (the 'dashing outlaw'). More must be done to make evil and evil deeds clearly unnatractive and clearly leading to ruin and punishment. Where do you stand on this.
Bringing this back to porn at lit., not only is there no punishment, but almost everyone in the story gets off, even if it's mum and three sons. Does this 'lie' bother you? In that sense the author, 'demon', of the violent SUV story is much more honest**; someone got raped and quite injured. Yes, a tiny ref to orgasm in her was there, the author made a slip; but most of the time 99% the victim is clearly suffering. Contrast that with the alleged drawn-out fun and satisfaction of mom, three sons, and the beautiful blonde next door.
J.
**This is not a claim about the author's literary abilities.
=====================
btw Pure, I read that article and it is pretty good. The only thing I take real exception to is where he says:
"Unfortunately, repression is not a scientifically confirmed fact."
Someone better inform the field of psychoanalysis that a major area of controversy in the profession is just a figment of the analysts' collective minds. This puts a slant on the article which would stand better if it were simply a critique of the story.
I haven't read False Allegations yet, but I'm going to go find it and devour it (I don't know how I missed it).
I don't want to get into an analysis of the Burke character here or his 'growth' through several books.
What I do agree with is that it is criminal in and of itself when over-eager prosecutors and mental health pros intentionally lead a child or an adult to say what they want to hear for the sake of the old conviction rate and its political return.
Do I think there is such a thing as repressed memory? I've seen it within my own family (witnessing the initial trauma and the repression several years later in the victim). Do I think such memories should be rooted-out? Not unless the person is having problems that cause them to be unable to deal with everyday life. And never should they be guessed at and suggested as a memory to go after.
I haven't read Vachss, but I gather from interviews and articles that he wants his novels, esp. the Burke ones, to stir up people to take action to prevent and punish child molestation. Show them real evil types who (I'm guessing) almost get away with it, so that they'll get really angry. Then perhaps have some satisfying violence or revenge against the fiend.
Again, going by the review, 'False Allegations' went somewhat overboard: The example given was the the spokes person for the view opposing Vachss, kept a secret evil identity and turned out to be involved with the Russian mafia and iirc child porn. This one might call, 'heavy handed'. As with the liberals in Rand novels. (None of this tentative criticism is meant to detract from the worth of Vachss' NON literary efforts to expose and punish abusers.)
Fair enough, you can use a novel for many purposes. "Uncle Tom's Cabin" moved many thousands to tears with its portrayal of Black people's suffering. Nowaday, it's generally called 'second rate' and iirc somewhat racist in respect of Black stereotypes.
[I'm going to leave 'repression' etc. and 'analysis' to another thread. Likewise the issue fo reforming the RCC. ]
I'm trying to remember the issue here: Is it perhaps, should a novel portray evil as undiluted, un-countered? should a novel just neutrally ('flat' prose) describe evil, like B. Ellis says he does in _American Psycho_? Must there be something more 'ringing' in the way of condemnation?
Those with a moral agenda don't like these things (undiluted evils, or 'flat' portrayals of it), and tend to think that 'flat' isn't good enough.. Evil people mustn't appeal reader's imagination (the 'dashing outlaw'). More must be done to make evil and evil deeds clearly unnatractive and clearly leading to ruin and punishment. Where do you stand on this.
Bringing this back to porn at lit., not only is there no punishment, but almost everyone in the story gets off, even if it's mum and three sons. Does this 'lie' bother you? In that sense the author, 'demon', of the violent SUV story is much more honest**; someone got raped and quite injured. Yes, a tiny ref to orgasm in her was there, the author made a slip; but most of the time 99% the victim is clearly suffering. Contrast that with the alleged drawn-out fun and satisfaction of mom, three sons, and the beautiful blonde next door.
J.
**This is not a claim about the author's literary abilities.
=====================
btw Pure, I read that article and it is pretty good. The only thing I take real exception to is where he says:
"Unfortunately, repression is not a scientifically confirmed fact."
Someone better inform the field of psychoanalysis that a major area of controversy in the profession is just a figment of the analysts' collective minds. This puts a slant on the article which would stand better if it were simply a critique of the story.
I haven't read False Allegations yet, but I'm going to go find it and devour it (I don't know how I missed it).
I don't want to get into an analysis of the Burke character here or his 'growth' through several books.
What I do agree with is that it is criminal in and of itself when over-eager prosecutors and mental health pros intentionally lead a child or an adult to say what they want to hear for the sake of the old conviction rate and its political return.
Do I think there is such a thing as repressed memory? I've seen it within my own family (witnessing the initial trauma and the repression several years later in the victim). Do I think such memories should be rooted-out? Not unless the person is having problems that cause them to be unable to deal with everyday life. And never should they be guessed at and suggested as a memory to go after.
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G
Guest
Guest
I truly believe in O. Wilde's statement, "All art is quite useless." It may appear fatuous or revolutionary, but like much of Wilde there is depth and awful truth there.Pure said:
I don't believe a novel that can be determined art should have a purpose; that would make it practical and artless (I borrow my own phrases when convenient). Moral agendas in art are useless. Why are we speaking of this?
Do separate the chaff from the wheat. Don't use the word "art" cavalierly, please.
And please don't regurgitate FF to me. Again, speak your own mind clearly. Yes, I know you directed questions to FF but this is an open thread.
And why are you still bringing AD into this? Leave it for god's for fuck's sake.
Perdita
ffreak
old man
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This may get deleted which is alright - but since it was a part of the discussion I just hope it stays long enough to be seen by the majority of the thread participants.
Convicted child sex abuser and defrocked Roman Catholic priest John Geoghan died Saturday after he was apparently strangled by a fellow inmate at a Massachusetts prison, according to local officials. Geoghan was a central figure in the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal.
Wonder how this will be received by the Catholic world?
BTW letting a convicted child abuser into general population is likely to get this result.
Convicted child sex abuser and defrocked Roman Catholic priest John Geoghan died Saturday after he was apparently strangled by a fellow inmate at a Massachusetts prison, according to local officials. Geoghan was a central figure in the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal.
Wonder how this will be received by the Catholic world?
BTW letting a convicted child abuser into general population is likely to get this result.
ffreak
old man
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Pure, let's both go read it before we continue more discussion about Vachss. Suffice it to say the man is not an artist, nor does he consider himself to be such. Nor, according to him, does he expect to change society (his eye is open at least).
To the point, my question relates to the grouping of content in erotica (I think the folks here have grouped the stories amazingly well - except where's the food category).
As was pointed-out earlier (by pops if I remember right) it seems odd that we avoid slightly underage characters in a story on a site that explicitly tells everyone that graphic sex scenes appear, yet we accept as non-criminal stories about violence (this is saying I think rape by definition is violent) - so much so that there are two categories to hold the stories.
I love Richard Adams - in Shardik there is a playful scene in the water where the girl is maybe 13 years old. In Walter Mosley's RL's Dream there is a scene where a 15 year old climbs into the main character's lap with the intention of getting pregnant - the scene is explicit and takes over a page to describe the act.
What we write here is not expected to hit the best seller list. But there seems to be a lot of caution put into one area of stories to apparently keep from coming under the accusation of publishing child pornography (I am not advocating that we should have it on the site) when on the other hand violence is apparently acceptable - not just here, but in society in general.
And logically it follows, my question about why not be able to show a character that starts-out with intentions like the Burke character, who is out to seek vengeance, that shows humanity and succumbs to the desires of the flesh, but in a non-violent way? Where would such a story be categorized?
In one of the threads a site was mentioned that will stalk a person for you - even set-up a coincidental meeting for you. Same type of story - what if the stalker fell in love with the target?
I don't know, am I examining something too real here? Is the story that inspired this thread acceptable because it is considered too unreal?
To the point, my question relates to the grouping of content in erotica (I think the folks here have grouped the stories amazingly well - except where's the food category).
As was pointed-out earlier (by pops if I remember right) it seems odd that we avoid slightly underage characters in a story on a site that explicitly tells everyone that graphic sex scenes appear, yet we accept as non-criminal stories about violence (this is saying I think rape by definition is violent) - so much so that there are two categories to hold the stories.
I love Richard Adams - in Shardik there is a playful scene in the water where the girl is maybe 13 years old. In Walter Mosley's RL's Dream there is a scene where a 15 year old climbs into the main character's lap with the intention of getting pregnant - the scene is explicit and takes over a page to describe the act.
What we write here is not expected to hit the best seller list. But there seems to be a lot of caution put into one area of stories to apparently keep from coming under the accusation of publishing child pornography (I am not advocating that we should have it on the site) when on the other hand violence is apparently acceptable - not just here, but in society in general.
And logically it follows, my question about why not be able to show a character that starts-out with intentions like the Burke character, who is out to seek vengeance, that shows humanity and succumbs to the desires of the flesh, but in a non-violent way? Where would such a story be categorized?
In one of the threads a site was mentioned that will stalk a person for you - even set-up a coincidental meeting for you. Same type of story - what if the stalker fell in love with the target?
I don't know, am I examining something too real here? Is the story that inspired this thread acceptable because it is considered too unreal?
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Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Hi ffreak,
Literotica claims to be scared of underage stuff, because of laws around or contemplated about the internet and child porn (which is pics, btw) or 'harm to minors'. I don't agree re teens, but this issue has been discussed many times. There's no immediate way of changing lit's policies.
Lit categories generally are basically an aid to consumers and to prevent denizens from gross out (i.e., running into male-male sodomy when looking for something healthy like daughter fucks dad.) Probably that's why 'extreme' is there. I don't think there's anything more to say, a least by me, on categories and rules set up by a particular private party** who's running a broad-based porn/erotica website ; 'nonconsent' is a joke, being enjoyable, orgasmic quasi-rapes that turn out swimmingly for all.
Aside from this, could you summarize your main points. I'm having trouble with them.
Yes, I was sorry, in a way, to hear of Geoghan's murder. Even some of his victims were. Keep him on display I would say. Let shrinks and novelists plumb his sick brain. Laws re sex abuse don't seem to work well; here's a proposal courtesy de Sade.
Eliminate all laws in that area. And regarding retaliation for such. That leaves the matter in private hands: the victim or her/his family can kill the sonuvagun.
J.
**If you want, for example, to talk porn and obscenity laws, what's there or should be there, public policy re sexually explicit or violent material, I'm up on it, and am quite willing.
Or if you want to talk 'art' and can it remain 'art' and get graphic, and/or get people aroused and what the fuck is it, anyway, that's fine too.
Literotica claims to be scared of underage stuff, because of laws around or contemplated about the internet and child porn (which is pics, btw) or 'harm to minors'. I don't agree re teens, but this issue has been discussed many times. There's no immediate way of changing lit's policies.
Lit categories generally are basically an aid to consumers and to prevent denizens from gross out (i.e., running into male-male sodomy when looking for something healthy like daughter fucks dad.) Probably that's why 'extreme' is there. I don't think there's anything more to say, a least by me, on categories and rules set up by a particular private party** who's running a broad-based porn/erotica website ; 'nonconsent' is a joke, being enjoyable, orgasmic quasi-rapes that turn out swimmingly for all.
Aside from this, could you summarize your main points. I'm having trouble with them.
Yes, I was sorry, in a way, to hear of Geoghan's murder. Even some of his victims were. Keep him on display I would say. Let shrinks and novelists plumb his sick brain. Laws re sex abuse don't seem to work well; here's a proposal courtesy de Sade.
Eliminate all laws in that area. And regarding retaliation for such. That leaves the matter in private hands: the victim or her/his family can kill the sonuvagun.
J.
**If you want, for example, to talk porn and obscenity laws, what's there or should be there, public policy re sexually explicit or violent material, I'm up on it, and am quite willing.
Or if you want to talk 'art' and can it remain 'art' and get graphic, and/or get people aroused and what the fuck is it, anyway, that's fine too.
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Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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- Dec 20, 2001
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- 15,135
sweet words from perd,
I truly believe in O. Wilde's statement, "All art is quite useless."
[...]
I don't believe a novel that can be determined art should have a purpose; that would make it practical and artless (I borrow my own phrases when convenient). Moral agendas in art are useless. Why are we speaking of this?
Because such agendas--political and moral-- are common; witness Vachss' novels, Upton Sinclair's, or Stowe's (Uncle Tom's Cabin). I wonder, my dear, what you think _Germinal_ is all about? or "Childhood of a Boss" (Sartre)? Some of these are commonly thought to be 'works of literature' as well.
Btw, I'm assuming a novel (or 'short story') or 'work of literature' is a particular type (or example) of 'art' involving written material and meeting other story related criteria.
So if you want to go around saying "Well this isn't a novel," "This isn't literature" fine; tell it to Barnes and Noble**; tell them that 'non useless' stuff, agenda'd stuff, belongs in the 'propaganda screeds and pseudo-artistic blatherings' section. These sorts of proposals don't lead anywhere, little dove, regardless of the wit of Wilde.
**Incidentally, I noticed recently that our huge-barn book merchandiser has lumped 'literature' and 'fiction' together; abandoning the bogus distinction --of kind-- between Sartre's and Stephen King's writings (**except as regards literary skill or artistry**).
I truly believe in O. Wilde's statement, "All art is quite useless."
[...]
I don't believe a novel that can be determined art should have a purpose; that would make it practical and artless (I borrow my own phrases when convenient). Moral agendas in art are useless. Why are we speaking of this?
Because such agendas--political and moral-- are common; witness Vachss' novels, Upton Sinclair's, or Stowe's (Uncle Tom's Cabin). I wonder, my dear, what you think _Germinal_ is all about? or "Childhood of a Boss" (Sartre)? Some of these are commonly thought to be 'works of literature' as well.
Btw, I'm assuming a novel (or 'short story') or 'work of literature' is a particular type (or example) of 'art' involving written material and meeting other story related criteria.
So if you want to go around saying "Well this isn't a novel," "This isn't literature" fine; tell it to Barnes and Noble**; tell them that 'non useless' stuff, agenda'd stuff, belongs in the 'propaganda screeds and pseudo-artistic blatherings' section. These sorts of proposals don't lead anywhere, little dove, regardless of the wit of Wilde.
**Incidentally, I noticed recently that our huge-barn book merchandiser has lumped 'literature' and 'fiction' together; abandoning the bogus distinction --of kind-- between Sartre's and Stephen King's writings (**except as regards literary skill or artistry**).
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G
Guest
Guest
Pure, I was being a snob. Sometimes I can't help it, sometimes I enjoy it with purpose. Don't know 'bout the above, maybe you just drive me to it.
So no comments, but the B&N bit wasn't a surprise. I live in a city with lots of good independant booksellers so I never go to the big barns. If I can't find a book I use the online used-book sites. Sometimes I'm forced to go to a library and beg.
Perdita
p.s. my smilie is a tulip, I prefer them to roses.
So no comments, but the B&N bit wasn't a surprise. I live in a city with lots of good independant booksellers so I never go to the big barns. If I can't find a book I use the online used-book sites. Sometimes I'm forced to go to a library and beg.
Perdita
p.s. my smilie is a tulip, I prefer them to roses.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Perdida mi amor brujo, "Pure, I was being a snob."
Even your snobbishness, senorita, does me the honor of being noticed.
:rose;
May I ask you and Mlle as simple question (as simple as I can, that is); multiform, of course. I'm snobbish too, but let me speak as the 'common man'*:
Form 1) I can see you're worried about the effects of violent sexually explicit material, esp. in connection to actual violence against women; why then, does 'it's art' count for much, i.e., serve as an excuse for the stuff? The effect of that is that you arty ones can borrow Sade from the library, literature section, to jill off to, while, for a wank, I gotta go to a shady 'smut purveyor', the paid-member Filipina porn website to obtain the stuff.
2) Why do you get to buy your arty rape/mutilate stories
in the village bookshop, while I've gotta depend on the slightly disreputable and generally despised 'extreme' section of literotica.
3) Why do your jollies and tastes count for more than mine in the community at large? Like in court. There's a thousand enjoyers--the ones you despise as 'wankers'-- of what you call 'crap' and 'not literature' for every one of you snobs.
Common man*.
*cuz as you know it's the common man who goes for seedy porn,
not you literary ladies, nor my good wife Sarah Jane.
Even your snobbishness, senorita, does me the honor of being noticed.
:rose;
May I ask you and Mlle as simple question (as simple as I can, that is); multiform, of course. I'm snobbish too, but let me speak as the 'common man'*:
Form 1) I can see you're worried about the effects of violent sexually explicit material, esp. in connection to actual violence against women; why then, does 'it's art' count for much, i.e., serve as an excuse for the stuff? The effect of that is that you arty ones can borrow Sade from the library, literature section, to jill off to, while, for a wank, I gotta go to a shady 'smut purveyor', the paid-member Filipina porn website to obtain the stuff.
2) Why do you get to buy your arty rape/mutilate stories
in the village bookshop, while I've gotta depend on the slightly disreputable and generally despised 'extreme' section of literotica.
3) Why do your jollies and tastes count for more than mine in the community at large? Like in court. There's a thousand enjoyers--the ones you despise as 'wankers'-- of what you call 'crap' and 'not literature' for every one of you snobs.
Common man*.
*cuz as you know it's the common man who goes for seedy porn,
not you literary ladies, nor my good wife Sarah Jane.
ffreak
old man
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
- Posts
- 1,262
Or if you want to talk 'art' and can it remain 'art' and get graphic, and/or get people aroused and what the fuck is it, anyway, that's fine too.
This is more the area I prefer for discussion - at least I think it is more apropos at this site.
Art is generally achieved I think, when positive emotion is engaged. I would also think that 'positive' is in the eye of the proverbial beholder (meaning of course that AD's story is art to those who think it is art). However there is always the baggage of human existence that comes into focus to obscure the beholder's vision.
Example: Mapplethorpe's pictures. Simply because they are of gay men, that filter was far too dark for many people. Are they artistic? If seen from the point of view that he created a study not done elsewhere yes. From the point of view of portraiture, not any more than pictures of Native Americans or Pioneers could be called art (in my opinion).
So, how real of a situation can we start with, maintain the appearance of normal human life, and make the eroticism still stand-out in a story without making it a non-stop orgy (not that such a story couldn't be artistic)?
This is more the area I prefer for discussion - at least I think it is more apropos at this site.
Art is generally achieved I think, when positive emotion is engaged. I would also think that 'positive' is in the eye of the proverbial beholder (meaning of course that AD's story is art to those who think it is art). However there is always the baggage of human existence that comes into focus to obscure the beholder's vision.
Example: Mapplethorpe's pictures. Simply because they are of gay men, that filter was far too dark for many people. Are they artistic? If seen from the point of view that he created a study not done elsewhere yes. From the point of view of portraiture, not any more than pictures of Native Americans or Pioneers could be called art (in my opinion).
So, how real of a situation can we start with, maintain the appearance of normal human life, and make the eroticism still stand-out in a story without making it a non-stop orgy (not that such a story couldn't be artistic)?
G
Guest
Guest
Purely, sweets:
1) I don't know of any art that is merely erotic. When I think of art that is erotic I cannot separate the erotic from the whole work. (You do know there are plenty of free smut sites don't you?)
2) I don't understand why you can't go to village bookshops, or online at least. Off hand, the only rape/mutilation stories I recollect on my shelves are Shakespeare's plays, but the violence all occurs offstage; does that count?
3) My jollies and tastes do not count more than yours. If I've implied that, I apologize and take it back. I don't despise 'wankers'; they're a necessity for any nympho-gal like me. But I do use the term as an insult, like the common man or woman does, at least in the UK. I read crap for fun too, I was so sorry, selfishly I admit, when Jackie Susann died.
I hope this helps bridge our snobby divide.
Perdita
1) I don't know of any art that is merely erotic. When I think of art that is erotic I cannot separate the erotic from the whole work. (You do know there are plenty of free smut sites don't you?)
2) I don't understand why you can't go to village bookshops, or online at least. Off hand, the only rape/mutilation stories I recollect on my shelves are Shakespeare's plays, but the violence all occurs offstage; does that count?
3) My jollies and tastes do not count more than yours. If I've implied that, I apologize and take it back. I don't despise 'wankers'; they're a necessity for any nympho-gal like me. But I do use the term as an insult, like the common man or woman does, at least in the UK. I read crap for fun too, I was so sorry, selfishly I admit, when Jackie Susann died.
I hope this helps bridge our snobby divide.
Perdita
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Posts
- 15,135
Perd said,
//3) My jollies and tastes do not count more than yours.//
But they do, love, the laws that censor or control read
'The graphic depiction of xxx is prohibited ....
The above prohibitions shall not apply where a work is of
genuine scientific or artistic value."
Further, in the local setting both you and Mlle objected to {or if you prefer, were offended by} a certain story not because it was graphic brutal rape, but because, (I quote from memory) _it is not and cannot be art._
-----
on a lighter note,
soy como pierdra quemada
que de pronto, contigo, canta porque recibe
el aque del los bosques por tu vox conducida.
//3) My jollies and tastes do not count more than yours.//
But they do, love, the laws that censor or control read
'The graphic depiction of xxx is prohibited ....
The above prohibitions shall not apply where a work is of
genuine scientific or artistic value."
Further, in the local setting both you and Mlle objected to {or if you prefer, were offended by} a certain story not because it was graphic brutal rape, but because, (I quote from memory) _it is not and cannot be art._
-----
on a lighter note,
soy como pierdra quemada
que de pronto, contigo, canta porque recibe
el aque del los bosques por tu vox conducida.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Posts
- 15,135
Hi ff,
Sorry if I was a little testy, there; this 'category' thing got talked to death.
===
Pure://Or if you want to talk 'art' and can it remain 'art' and get graphic, and/or get people aroused and what the fuck is it, anyway, that's fine too.//
ffreak said,
This is more the area I prefer for discussion - at least I think it is more apropos at this site.
Art is generally achieved I think, when positive emotion is engaged. I would also think that 'positive' is in the eye of the proverbial beholder (meaning of course that AD's story is art to those who think it is art). However there is always the baggage of human existence that comes into focus to obscure the beholder's vision.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'positive emotion.' Could a work make one sad, or even cry?
Example: Mapplethorpe's pictures. Simply because they are of gay men, that filter was far too dark for many people. Are they artistic? If seen from the point of view that he created a study not done elsewhere yes. From the point of view of portraiture, not any more than pictures of Native Americans or Pioneers could be called art (in my opinion).
I remember at the time of controversies, the subject matter stood out for some straight conservatives. Not unlike some present staid types, they said, "That cant be art." E.g. a picture of a little finger jammed half way into an erect penis.
Now I've seen the pictures in museums. Many admit it's high quality photography, i.e., that it's 'art.' I'm not sure what you're saying about portraits, but they, in painting or photography, may fall into the category of art. Exceptional examples, the Ingres portraits. Certain arts are allowed to have 'real' subjects, I gather.
So, how real of a situation can we start with, maintain the appearance of normal human life, and make the eroticism still stand-out in a story without making it a non-stop orgy (not that such a story couldn't be artistic)?
There's the question. The 'erotica' category is supposed to have story and emotion, but the term got debased-- from various sources I won't name. Now the serious stuff is 'literary erotica''; the other I call pornerotica: ghost of a plot, lotsa dirty, fantasy-amplified sex detail, not 'real' in the least. The best 'serious' site I know is www.cleansheets.com .
Let me answer your question, i.e., give my opinion, through an example. In Lolita, there are, in the scene where IT finally is happening, a couple pages of the hero's anxiously lying in bed with Lolita, sneaking slight touches, afraid, excited. When you come to the 'money', the narrator (and author) just say (roughly), _the animal details are pretty much as usual, we'll just say it happened; and more than once that night.
So the 'reigning theory' is that you can't have much sex detail at all; discretion is required. I used to think it was bosh, but having been here, I see another reason for it: sex details and events, esp. fantasied ones told in stereotyped 'formula' manner, are BORING (after age 25). I've checked THE EVENT in many fine books, and the pattern of not much physiological detail suggests it's goddamn hard or almost impossible to have good writing and lots of sex details. Good writing has a 'fresh' quality that bears re-reading; pornerotica is mostly trashcan material after a few masturbatory run throughs.
Please give your opinion on these matters, with examples.
best,
J.
PS, was just in the Denver area Rockies and it was wonderful.
Sorry if I was a little testy, there; this 'category' thing got talked to death.
===
Pure://Or if you want to talk 'art' and can it remain 'art' and get graphic, and/or get people aroused and what the fuck is it, anyway, that's fine too.//
ffreak said,
This is more the area I prefer for discussion - at least I think it is more apropos at this site.
Art is generally achieved I think, when positive emotion is engaged. I would also think that 'positive' is in the eye of the proverbial beholder (meaning of course that AD's story is art to those who think it is art). However there is always the baggage of human existence that comes into focus to obscure the beholder's vision.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'positive emotion.' Could a work make one sad, or even cry?
Example: Mapplethorpe's pictures. Simply because they are of gay men, that filter was far too dark for many people. Are they artistic? If seen from the point of view that he created a study not done elsewhere yes. From the point of view of portraiture, not any more than pictures of Native Americans or Pioneers could be called art (in my opinion).
I remember at the time of controversies, the subject matter stood out for some straight conservatives. Not unlike some present staid types, they said, "That cant be art." E.g. a picture of a little finger jammed half way into an erect penis.
Now I've seen the pictures in museums. Many admit it's high quality photography, i.e., that it's 'art.' I'm not sure what you're saying about portraits, but they, in painting or photography, may fall into the category of art. Exceptional examples, the Ingres portraits. Certain arts are allowed to have 'real' subjects, I gather.
So, how real of a situation can we start with, maintain the appearance of normal human life, and make the eroticism still stand-out in a story without making it a non-stop orgy (not that such a story couldn't be artistic)?
There's the question. The 'erotica' category is supposed to have story and emotion, but the term got debased-- from various sources I won't name. Now the serious stuff is 'literary erotica''; the other I call pornerotica: ghost of a plot, lotsa dirty, fantasy-amplified sex detail, not 'real' in the least. The best 'serious' site I know is www.cleansheets.com .
Let me answer your question, i.e., give my opinion, through an example. In Lolita, there are, in the scene where IT finally is happening, a couple pages of the hero's anxiously lying in bed with Lolita, sneaking slight touches, afraid, excited. When you come to the 'money', the narrator (and author) just say (roughly), _the animal details are pretty much as usual, we'll just say it happened; and more than once that night.
So the 'reigning theory' is that you can't have much sex detail at all; discretion is required. I used to think it was bosh, but having been here, I see another reason for it: sex details and events, esp. fantasied ones told in stereotyped 'formula' manner, are BORING (after age 25). I've checked THE EVENT in many fine books, and the pattern of not much physiological detail suggests it's goddamn hard or almost impossible to have good writing and lots of sex details. Good writing has a 'fresh' quality that bears re-reading; pornerotica is mostly trashcan material after a few masturbatory run throughs.
Please give your opinion on these matters, with examples.
best,
J.
PS, was just in the Denver area Rockies and it was wonderful.
Last edited:
ffreak
old man
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
- Posts
- 1,262
Pure, I never took offence at your comments. I think it is healthy for writers to discuss such matters.
Hmm... worst example of sex scenes in best selling novels as an example - any two sex scenes of Jean Auels. Note the extremely strong resemblance - like she got happy with the cut and paste function in her word processor. If you removed the repititious sex scenes and the repeated encyclpediac entries about every flower and every weed her character walks through, each novel would be no more than 200 pages.
The first time you read one of these scenes you tend to look around the room to make sure no one else is watching. It is arousing just to know that she is so explicit in a novel that can be checked-out by any high-school student.
But when you read the next occurance, you are tempted to look back for the first because it is so much of a copy.
To me, the result is that as each sex scene comes by I get more and more tempted to skip the scene, making them no more than filler.
I think the scenes could have been varied much more and that doing so would have made much better stories.
Hmm... worst example of sex scenes in best selling novels as an example - any two sex scenes of Jean Auels. Note the extremely strong resemblance - like she got happy with the cut and paste function in her word processor. If you removed the repititious sex scenes and the repeated encyclpediac entries about every flower and every weed her character walks through, each novel would be no more than 200 pages.
The first time you read one of these scenes you tend to look around the room to make sure no one else is watching. It is arousing just to know that she is so explicit in a novel that can be checked-out by any high-school student.
But when you read the next occurance, you are tempted to look back for the first because it is so much of a copy.
To me, the result is that as each sex scene comes by I get more and more tempted to skip the scene, making them no more than filler.
I think the scenes could have been varied much more and that doing so would have made much better stories.
G
Guest
Guest
Pure said:
Pfft! This just reinforces that stupid 'Gender Genie.' I must be a common man.
Lou
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