Should authors avoid writing about a subject because a minority might emulate it?

[xssve]

It was a Bush DOJ power play, they got their asses handed to them on a previous case - three jurors held out in this one and there is some indication that pressure may have been applied.

In 2005, the Bush administration launched its so-called "War on Porn," forming the Obscenity Prosecution Task Force, a Department of Justice outfit dedicated to pursuing obscenity prosecutions, and the FBI began recruiting for a "porn squad," otherwise known as the Adult Obscenity Squad, focused on "manufacturers and purveyors" of pornography. In late 2005, federal agents raided Little's offices in Altadena, California, but it wasn't until early 2007 that his indictment was unsealed. As it turned out, OPTF Director Brent Ward had found getting US Attorneys to pursue obscenity prosecutions wasn't easy. Consequently, US Attorneys who preferred dedicating their resources to crimes other than obscenity in districts more likely to win the administration obscenity convictions were eliminated.

Late last year, the OPTF's first trial began in Phoenix, Arizona, pitting the US government against a producer of bukkake videos, but the result was an embarrassment, the pornographer slipping out of the government's hands in the courtroom. When it came to Little, prosecutors were gunning for a win. Finally, three years after the OPTF was formed, the Feds got their man.

Reverse Cowgirl Blog via BoingBoing.

 

[xssve]

Yeah, I just read the indictment, it's like 10 counts of using the US postal service to transport obscene materials. I've read in other places about stat rape, maybe they'll get him on that when he gets out of prison, which he might already be out.

I'm not sure how free speech ever came to protect visual art or pornography. I'm not really on the bandwagon of freedom of speech, because I think it has come to mean nothing really. The only cases seem to be in schools and pornography. Usually they don't make sense as how they can come to mean freedom of expression.

Visual art and literature are forms of speech.

 

[Epmd607]

Visual art and literature are forms of speech.

Yes, the courts seems to say so most of the time. But I don't think visual art or pornography fits in with what was meant by 'freedom of expression' by those crusty old lords who wrote that bill of rights. Actually, they don't say 'expression' they say speech and text/press, which covers literature, text, and all human speech.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Right? This seems pretty clear, it's about not getting in trouble for redress and grievances with the government or anyone else. I don't think showing peepee videos is making a statement about government or anyone else you have a grievance with -- it certainly isn't doing so via text or human speech.

 

[xssve]

Yes, the courts seems to say so most of the time. But I don't think visual art or pornography fits in with what was meant by 'freedom of expression' by those crusty old lords who wrote that bill of rights.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Right? This seems pretty clear, it's about not getting in trouble for redress and grievances with the government or anyone else. I don't think showing peepee videos is making a statement about government or anyone else you have a grievance with.

"...freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".

If you can think it, you can say it, if you can't say it, you can draw a picture of it.

 

[xssve]

A friend of mine's mom, who was an ER nurse, used to tell a story about pumping out 7 quarts of semen from a prostitutes stomach one night - that was way before anybody ever thought of the internet or PC's for that matter.

 

[Epmd607]

"...freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".

If you can think it, you can say it, if you can't say it, you can draw a picture of it.

Larry Flint's awesome because his point was there's this dick after me and he's a public figure so I'm gonna make a joke of him. I think he used visuals, but the point was the joke he made about Jerry losing his virginity in an outhouse with his mother. A picture as symbol doesn't lead to a moving picture portraying human suffering. Jesus on the cross, had it been videotaped and distributed shouldn't be protected by speech and assembly rights. There are plenty of other laws to defend distribution and business.

 

[Epmd607]

A friend of mine's mom, who was an ER nurse, used to tell a story about pumping out 7 quarts of semen from a prostitutes stomach one night - that was way before anybody ever thought of the internet or PC's for that matter.

There haven't been many new urban legends since the 70s, the internet just spreads new varieties of the old flavors from 50's-80's. You might say the Internet killed Urban Legends by the speed at which you can access information.

 

[xssve]

This one happens to be true, happened at the Black and White club, a bar that was popular back in the wildcat oilfield days. Lotta shit like that used to go on here back then.

Shit, I watched one chick fuck Forty or Fifty guys at a biker bar In Florida one night - on the night before her wedding.

And that one was at the height of the AIDS epidemic.

 

[Epmd607]

This one happens to be true, happened at the Black and White club, a bar that was popular back in the wildcat oilfield days. Lotta shit like that used to go on here.

Shit, I watched one chick fuck Forty of Fifty guys at a biker bar one night - on the night before her wedding.

And that one was at the height of the AIDS epidemic.

Fucking is awesome, the problem comes along when you add fucking for money. How do you trade sex for money or sex for money on video quantitatively? I'm for legalized prostitution and legalized everything pretty much. A legal prostitute is still in a dehumanizing business. It sucks that many females have to turn to selling their body for money to support themselves, their kids, and their awesome drug habits.

 

[xssve]

I didn't make the world, I just live in it.

It's one of those ways of enforcing traditional values - get married, have kids and keep your mouth shut - or else.

 

[xssve]

SCOTUS has agreed to hear the Glenn Marcus case, which should be interesting, and have implications w/regard to consent laws - it's essentially a consent case, and I expect they'll uphold his conviction.

 

[Pure]

xs: goings on.

I don't know what this has directly to do with the thread topic, except the point made earlier, that porn counts on MULTIPLYing, for effect, e.g. number of partners, boob size twice normal, and cocks of rare immensity. Likewise, the volume of ejaculate is made huge, in visual porn, through using fake semen, tricks of camera.

if porn constructs a 'menu' of sexual acts (or alleged acts), that includes the canonical descriptions (or misdescriptions), as will become plain below.


xssv: A friend of mine's mom, who was an ER nurse, used to tell a story about pumping out 7 quarts of semen from a prostitutes stomach one night - that was way before anybody ever thought of the internet or PC's for that matter.

[later post]
This one happens to be true, happened at the Black and White club, a bar that was popular back in the wildcat oilfield days. Lotta shit like that used to go on here back then.
----
well, some of the goings on, back then, were from the shit you were smoking.

check snopes, below, and let's do the math. the average male ejaculates a teaspoon, so that's 96 males for one pint. so about 200 males are needed for a quart.

14 pints, then, as in your story represents 1344 average males' contribution.

and ftsoa, suppose each male is *double* the average, then 96 supermales produce a quart, and
so you're only talking about 650 of these supermale studs, in your story.

HOWEVER, the normal human stomach holds at most 2 quarts, and most are in the 1-3 quart area. and ftsoa, lets double that, and make her a whale holding 6 quarts. that then represents
about 600 of the superhuman studs above.

Reverting to average human males, you're up over 1000, so it's obvious she went to the ER mostly from exhaustion.

...or was it all a dream.

======
http://www.snopes.com/college/risque/cheerleader.asp

average ejaculate, say 4 cc or just under one teaspoon.

96 teaspoons, =one pint.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/health/nutrition/20well.html

 

[xssve]

It was along time ago, it more than Two quarts though.

And I can drink a gallon of water.

 

[xssve]

In any case, apocryphal or not (I always just assumed that it was diluted by copious amounts of alcohol, things being what they are), I've seen enough with my own eyes to know that porn has little or nothing to do with it, people seem to manage just fine without it.

And, if they try to act like porn stars, it might actually be an improvement over acting like virgins, or the usual self conscious spectatoring of the over socialized. There were a lot more people married before no fault divorce, but there were a lot more miserably married people too.

If anything, porn has probably introduced a certain amount of etiquette into it - verbal humiliation is just a thing to do, rather than it's traditional role of projecting guilt and self loathing onto the victim.

 

[xssve]

The status quo is only what keeps a society together and functioning in that moment, so it is an unqualified good to those who value the continued existence of such a society past tomorrow. That which opposes a society as a whole is something other than a Muslim dissident who values democracy, free speeh, art, literature. In a society such as Iran you can't destroy the so called 'bad stuff' without destroying the things we value as an outsider. The Muslim dissident who values the same things we value can't be picked apart from Iran and placed back in Iran -- as an outsider there is only Iranian society.

Functional is often a subjective definition: the functionality of a given society is typically defined by those at the top of the social hierarchy who have a vested interest in maintaining their positions of authority, which in turn grant them the power if life and death over others.

Objectively, society is a construct that benefits the individual through reciprocal behaviors like division of labor, allowing each individual to focus on what they're best at, maximizing production, and pushing the envelope of technological and artistic creativity.

You asked at one point what art had to do with speech - art is speech, the power of speech is the ability to manipulate abstract symbols, the basis of any language is those abstract symbols themselves, of which language is one mode of expression.

To return to the social construct, it's purpose is maximise individual fitness through group behavior, not to maintain the position of those at the top of the hierarchy - they are only as useful to society as their contribution, just like everybody else, and their position is maintained by consensus.

One of the divisions, or delegations that society makes possible, is the use of force - the group employs force on behalf of the individual, according to a consensus, whether it be in war or police actions - if a narrow consensus of individuals is able to secure a monopoly on the use of force, they can deviate form the broader consensus, and divert the authority to use force to maintain their own positions, even at the expense of group fitness, and the broader consensus that originally granted them their power.

This is the real danger to society, i.e., when every individual seeks to maximize and protect their own position whether it's at the expense of the group or not - if the legitimate use of force is either lost or monopolized exclusively to individual ends, the result is either the Cammorah in the first instance, or an autocratic state in the latter - you lose much of the rationale of co-operative effort behind belonging to a society to begin with, and you merely participate, possibly half heartedly if not corruptly, out of fear of reprisal.

Such a society will typically cease to progress and enter a state of social stasis, which will eventually place it at a disadvantage w/respect to societies that continue to advance.

It is up to every individual in the society, as part of the broader consensus, to define what "functional" means, since it's only legitimate function is to maximize the utility and increase the productivity (including childrearing) of all individuals in that society, collectively.

 

[xssve]

Speaking of warped - the very first sexually explicit movie I ever saw, about 12 maybe, happened to be Going Places on HBO.

Heh, I'm quoting myself.

But, I wanted to continue this train of thought, since it has more directly to do with the OP.

At 12, my notions of sexuality were already pretty warped out of sheer ignorance - I'm not sure that I can legally tell these stories, but I discovered sexual gratification at a fairly early age - we used to have those stupid skateboards with steel rollerskate wheels, and one day I was paddling around on my stomach on one over rough Tarmac, when I bagan experiencing the most unusual sensations in my groin, which included the sudden urge to urinate - this incident fueled my initial fantasies about sex which, yes, I'm sorry, included both skateboards and urination.

Not long afterward, I had some more experiences with some adventurous neighbor girls that resolved some questions, raised many others.

In short I can't remember exactly when I first started to get it all sorted out, but it was much later, and mostly through porn.

In some sense, you could say that without porn, the form of the paraphilia's I was developing were orders of magnitude weirder than the weirdest porn you can imagine.

But, that was what you did in those days - I witnessed many girls having their very first orgasm during the rope climb in Gym class - they would get halfway up, when they suddenly turn bright Red and freeze, clinging there trembling for a few moments, and eventually weakly slide back down.

For many of these girls, this was their first sexual experience.

In gym class.

With like 100 people watching.

It's a tribute to the resilience of the human psyche that we're not all irretrievably warped.

 

[Epmd607]

I forgot what I was gonna reply to.

 

[Epmd607]

...

In some sense, you could say that without porn, the form of the paraphilia's I was developing were orders of magnitude weirder than the weirdest porn you can imagine.

But, that was what you did in those days - I witnessed many girls having their very first orgasm during the rope climb in Gym class - they would get halfway up, when they suddenly turn bright Red and freeze, clinging there trembling for a few moments, and eventually weakly slide back down.

For many of these girls, this was their first sexual experience.

In gym class.

With like 100 people watching.

It's a tribute to the resilience of the human psyche that we're not all irretrievably warped.

Even toddlers will bounce on a woman's hip to obtain an erection, that is until the woman realizes and puts the kid down. I remember getting erections in nursery school and tucking them up into the waistband of my scooby doo underwear. I didn't figure out about rubbing it until I was 12 or 13. This is probably too much for this site, but I remember my sisters basically trying to grab it and tear it off whenever we took baths, had to protect myself with a cup my mom used to wash our hair. I used to wear these small long johns, they were my fetish item when I had an erection, the fabric interested me but I didn't figure out about rubbing it for years. When I was thirteen I found some version of the Joy Of Sex and there were two or three naked women in it, one was really pretty with super small breasts, I think I prefer small breasts because of that.

There were many doctor scenarios in elementary school. This younger boy wanted to play doctor all the time with me but I didn't want to cuz I already knew what a wiener looked like. Everyone else was female in the neighborhood, probably showed every one of them my peen a few times. I liked checking out their V's, there was next to no touching from what I remember. We actually played strip poker and camped out in our backyards when we were in middle school. Still, when high school came around they were always snotty toward me and I think it was because of all the immodest fun we had as children. They were too familiar anyway, I don't think I could sleep with any of them if I had the chance.

My first real entry into world of pornography was reading some really fantastic erotic stories on the old porno.com which used to be a real porno site, now I think it's just a trojan virus trap. I don't think I saw hardcore pornography until I was 17.

 

[xssve]

Ah yes, The Joy of Sex, great book, much better intro to sex than porn.

 

[Dragonlipz]

Even toddlers will bounce on a woman's hip to obtain an erection, that is until the woman realizes and puts the kid down. I remember getting erections in nursery school and tucking them up into the waistband of my scooby doo underwear. I didn't figure out about rubbing it until I was 12 or 13. This is probably too much for this site, but I remember my sisters basically trying to grab it and tear it off whenever we took baths, had to protect myself with a cup my mom used to wash our hair. I used to wear these small long johns, they were my fetish item when I had an erection, the fabric interested me but I didn't figure out about rubbing it for years. When I was thirteen I found some version of the Joy Of Sex and there were two or three naked women in it, one was really pretty with super small breasts, I think I prefer small breasts because of that.

There were many doctor scenarios in elementary school. This younger boy wanted to play doctor all the time with me but I didn't want to cuz I already knew what a wiener looked like. Everyone else was female in the neighborhood, probably showed every one of them my peen a few times. I liked checking out their V's, there was next to no touching from what I remember. We actually played strip poker and camped out in our backyards when we were in middle school. Still, when high school came around they were always snotty toward me and I think it was because of all the immodest fun we had as children. They were too familiar anyway, I don't think I could sleep with any of them if I had the chance.

My first real entry into world of pornography was reading some really fantastic erotic stories on the old porno.com which used to be a real porno site, now I think it's just a trojan virus trap. I don't think I saw hardcore pornography until I was 17.

WAAAY TOO MUCH INFO!!!!!!!!!

 

[Epmd607]

WAAAY TOO MUCH INFO!!!!!!!!!

Oh, sorry, I thought this was a conversation between me and xxsve. We were talking about a lot of different things yesterday and no one else was around. It is mildly on topic though, we're trying to figure out how and if we were screwed up from our early porn experiences.

 

[Pure]

thoughts

first, if i may echo dragon, that is very much material, epmd. and as per my earlier posts, here, i want to say that the focus of discussion of porn use and writing issues has to be broader than acts. lots of men have 'strayed' for millennia, but with the advent of the Catholic Church, and much later, psychoanalysis, the confessional becomes the medium as well as the mediator; the realm of 'the private' is altered, subject to intervention, and so on. (Foucault)

the 'catalog' of sins, is not unlike the 'menu' i referred to, as underlying mainstream visual porn.

as well as confessional issues, we have the 'reporting' phenomenon. MAYBE as the conservatives claim, Kinsey publications MADE people try things like sheep fucking, but more obviously, the fact was put out there; 30 percent of farm males, do it; and thereafter, there is a *seeming* increase. and finally it ends up in a mainstream movie in a woody allen skit about 'woolite'.
------

xssve At 12, my notions of sexuality were already pretty warped out of sheer ignorance - I'm not sure that I can legally tell these stories, but I discovered sexual gratification at a fairly early age - we used to have those stupid skateboards with steel rollerskate wheels, and one day I was paddling around on my stomach on one over rough Tarmac, when I bagan experiencing the most unusual sensations in my groin, which included the sudden urge to urinate - this incident fueled my initial fantasies about sex which, yes, I'm sorry, included both skateboards and urination.

Not long afterward, I had some more experiences with some adventurous neighbor girls that resolved some questions, raised many others.

In short I can't remember exactly when I first started to get it all sorted out, but it was much later, and mostly through porn.

In some sense, you could say that without porn, the form of the paraphilia's[sic] I was developing were orders of magnitude weirder than the weirdest porn you can imagine.
-----

i congratulate you on frankness, and at the same time note the confessional turn. but if i may continue the same thought, the issue is NOT simply "how often is paraphilia X engaged in, prior to, and after exposure to porn?" nor even, "is it weirder than in the timespan before porn?"

we are *talking* paraphilia--indeed confessing-- because of Krafft Ebing, Freud, the DSMs, and massive saturation of culture, with porn. paraphilia X--skateboards; frottage, subcategory 'not elsewhere classified'--exists; it's recognized. it's in the DSM catalog and the mainstream porn "menu".

it's even, may i speculate, part of identity, and i don't mean to single you out. were you writing a personal, and a self description, you might well say "passionately attracted to women; and also, there is, i should say, the odd paraphilia...."

the person who's catalogued in DSMs, and finds his habits on the "menu" of porn presents himself to his lover in those terms. not only are the acts out in the open, but it's almost as if they are *approved.*

in effect, now, one says, "love me, love my kink; that's just how i am." in different words, it's how the world is. any demurrer or adverse reaction is easily slotted as, at best, ignorance of 'how it is', and at worse irrationally antagonistic, as indicated, in a different venue, by the term 'homophobic,' now common as grass.

again, every partner has always brought his or her 'history' into a relationship; what's changed is the manner of such, including the attitudes and 'moral sentiments.'

anyway, just some thoughts. as per the thread topic, there is a mass phenomenon. one can claim "i would have bought the new Mercedes for my own reasons,' but the broader issue is marketing, its methods and influence. similarly the writer, the producer of material, isn't just, perhaps "expressing an individual fantasy" "letting out his inner author" but is part of the self-said "sexually liberated," indeed saturated, milieu, acting in accord with its norms.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

How about directions to create bombs and high explosives? I have this stuff.

In the 19th Century the inventor's magazines published detailed directions to make all kinds of stuff...paint, perfume, whisky, soap, drugs, etc.

 

[Epmd607]

"Love my kink"

Do people differentiate between 'kink' and 'fetish'? Maybe fetish is more organized. I think we have fetishes all though out childhood, superficial obsessions with things for their sensual value, not necessarily sexual. The confession of kinks is usually a last confession, the moment of intimacy past idealized intimacy. Some folks never confess and just go about their lives together, the confession of juvenile sex games is often a first step.

 

[DOF]

I am dipping back in here as the conversation has become some what more interesting in the last few pages. That said disclaimer I have not read a lot of posts so if this has been said or is redundant just mosey on along

I honestly believe that the issue is not a case of porn "warping" society but instead the fact that we no longer feel beholden to keep quiet about it. Looking back over history the human race has gone through era's of being both sexually liberal or frankly prudish.

If we glance back to Roman times, sex was intimate part of religions and similarly homosexuality, prostitution, orgies. Debatably rape was common place too boot. Of course much of the roman culture was barbaric and archaic and could never be advocated as a justification or as an ideal. How ever when looked at along with medieval society which was not so gallant, chivalrous or chased as Victorian history portrays. We begin to realize that our attitude about sex has not altered that drastically only the mediums we use to access it. I mean we only need look toward examples such as Jon Wilmot, Oscar Wilde and of course Marquis de Sade to realize that even in puritan eras, fascination was rife.

As it stands today people are accessing porn, fantasy and fetish on the internet instead of popping down to a local cat house. For society as a whole I cannot see it as better or worse. Certainly its healthier for all individuals involved so there is an upside. The idea that written words or even visual stimulus is going to engender a disregard for women or objectify them is clearly false. This is best illustrated by the fact that women are largely not abused, exploited or objectified in first world countries. The same countries that have endless access to pornography and "perverted" material. Where as abuse of women in numerous forms remains sadly prevalent in many emerging countries.

There will be exceptions to the rule be it countries or individuals but clearly over all porn in all its facets is not the "demon". Compare the dreadful stats regarding rape in America vs the sorry state of African continents for proof.

Basically the human nature has not changed, desire has not changed and all that really has is we all discuss it now? It's the same debate as did Marlyn Manson make a kid take a gun to school. Resoundingly we have to answer no, else we are supporting a paternal and censored society where we are not accountable. Consequential also surrendering our right of expression in the process.