Historical D/s

[Kajira Callista]

Bah, we're all adults here. Obviously there is something sexual about slavery to us, otherwise we wouldn't be on this forum. Every picture of a whip doesn't need a disclaimer: "This must only be used in good clean consensual fun!" Sheesh.

Thank you to everyone who has shared historical landmarks, especially Joe Schmoe...this was a fascinating and thought-provoking thread.

lol i do so you, miss quint.

 

[alice_underneath]

yes, there is something sexual about BDSM slavery

But does this turn you on?


In Europe alone, officials estimate that more than 200,000 women and girls — one-quarter of all women trafficked globally — are smuggled out of Central and Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics each year, the bulk of whom end up working as enslaved prostitutes. Almost half are transported to Western Europe. Roughly a quarter end up in the United States. Human rights activists say the numbers do not tell the full story, because most women remain silent rather than turn to frequently corrupt authorities for help.

The rapid rise of this sex slave trade can be traced to the fall of the Soviet Union, where borders once heavily guarded by the Red Army suddenly became porous and Soviet republics and Eastern European satellites once in the Kremlin’s grasp saw their industries and subsidies collapse overnight. Millions of young women like Olga came of age amid this economic misery. Their childhood fantasies of a better life in the West soon became a human trafficker’s golden opportunity.

Nowhere is this trafficking worse than it is in Moldova, Olga’s home, where experts estimate that since the fall of the Soviet Union between 200,000 and 400,000 women have been sold into prostitution — perhaps up to 10 percent of the female population.

The numbers are staggering, but for Liuba Revenko of the International Organization for Migration in Moldova the bondage of the country’s young women has become routine. “Moldovans are a hybrid population of Russians, Romanians, Jews, Ukrainians and Bulgarians,” Revenko said. “That creates a special race of women that are beautiful and in demand. They have no future. They are a good target for the traffickers.”

In Velesta, a town so small that the 120 Moldovan girls working as prostitutes there make up a sizeable part of the population, the sex slaves are rarely seen during the day. Kept under lock and key in the back rooms of a dozen “kafane,” or café-bars that double as brothels, they are summoned by their owners when a customer arrives. Then the girls, most in their late teens or early 20s, are paraded in skimpy lingerie before clients who “pick us according to their tastes,” said Irina, a Moldovan who answered a want-ad to be a waitress in Italy, but ended up trapped in a Balkans brothel instead of working in a restaurant in southern Sicily.

Rural Moldovan women, lacking education and desperate to escape, are easy targets, activists say. Sometimes the bondage is built around a debt that is impossible to pay off. Other times, it is simply brutal captivity.

They end up servicing clients with the false hope of working off a “debt” to their owners, who continue to entice them with real jobs in Europe.

The women’s tales of bondage are hauntingly similar. Olga, the Moldovan with the breast wound, was virtually kidnapped when she played hooky from school in rural Moldova. Initially, she was drawn to the prospect of a new life in Italy — far away from her alcoholic mother and abusive brother. But the next thing she knew, a Serb smuggler called “Dragan” was pulling her out of a car trunk in the Romanian town of Timisoara, on the border with Yugoslavia. Dragan and his Romanian pals loaded 10 girls on a boat to cross the Danube. After a few days in a basement near Belgrade, Olga was led across the Serbian frontier with Macedonia — under the eyes of obliging border guards — and brought to Velesta. “There were clients on the very first night,” she said.

With no passport and little idea where she was, Olga was raped, beaten into submission and humiliated until she no longer had the will to challenge her horrible fate.

“Meti made me clean the toilet with my tongue. It was horrible and dirty. I think they did it because I was the newest girl,” Olga said of her ethnic Albanian owner. “He made me lick another girl’s … you know, down there. And then he laughed.”

Young and beautiful, Olga has stayed in Velesta longer than most trafficked women, many of whom are moved on into Albania and Greece after the local population “breaks them in or gets tired of them,” Olga said. Once they reach the Albanian coast, they are easily trafficked to Italy, where the European Union’s lax border controls allow them to be smuggled deep inside the continent.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071965/

 

[Kajira Callista]

lol so if i said i found that kinda hot i suppose that would make me a sick fuck eh?

 

[alice_underneath]

lol so if i said i found that kinda hot i suppose that would make me a sick fuck eh?

Of course not, because you are talking about your personal fantasies.

But switching to a discussion of reality here....

Do you consider the European slave traffickers in the tale to be comparable to Francisco?

Does the slavery suffered by those women seem comparable to the slavery enjoyed by Catalina?

That's my point here. Fantasy is one thing. But a discussion of historical realities is something else altogether.

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

Guilty Thoughts

Yes, that is the title and the topic, but to pretend there is no connection between historical ownership of other human beings and present day consensual D/s and/or M/s is living in denial IMHO. I for one live as a 24/7 slave and our relationship very much hints at historical slavery in that I am owned, I do not have rights, I do not have choices (though initially I had the choice to submit to this), and I cannot leave...do you then see it as your right to invalidate what I do as not existing based on what you believe to be D/s in the style that suits you? Regardless of personal opinions, the opening article dealt with collaring, and spoke of a person who was inspired to wear one based on the experience she had of seeing a play that dealt with slavery...see how these connections are all related? Just because it did not happen as it does in many relationships today, or she didn't fit the image of what some believe a slave or submissive should in present day terms, does not invalidate the reality of it being an historical event which did happen and which reflects influence and linkage between past and present.

If she had never seen the play and identified with the female lead character, would she ever have worn a locked collar which her husband held the key to unlocking? If historical non-consensual slavery and present day consensual D/s slavery are completely unrelated and seperate entities, how is it there are so many areas of commonality such as claimed ownership, collars, slave names, caging, punishment, symbols of ownership including registration and numbering of slaves as existed in past eras etc.? This thread is not about personal preferences, practices or opinions, but more about (hopefully) objectively tracing historical evidence and linkages of the past and present.

Catalina

You make some very valid points. Of course, there are all sorts of connections. I suppose that in some ways, a lot of this touches some still sore nerves. Without detail, I can say that my family arrived in the southern colonies of the present USA in the 1630's. By the time of the American Revolution my ancestors were wealthy and owned literaly hundreds of slaves. In fact it was my great grandfather who freed his slaves on Lincoln's issuing of the Emanicapation Proclamation. My grandfather was a child who was there that day and told the story to my father who was born in 1892- less than 30 years after the Civil War ended. (In my family, it seems everyone lives a hundred years or more.-That has it's good and bad points. Bad point is that few of us ever meet our grandparents. My paternal grandmother died five years before I was born at the age of 101.--My father was already in his fifties. And he was the youngest of 20 children.) Anyway, I got the family history at most points from those only one generation from the events. The family history is not one of which one can be proud. But it did happen and cannot be denied.

So, yes. there is a connection. But I do like to keep clear the difference between legalized chatttel slavery and the freely chosen type. I know that there are people in a D/s relationship that truly are slaves. I once came very close to that myself. Nevertheless, it was my choice. And yes, there were the connectons to historical slavery. I guess this is something of a raw nerve.

Really dirty confession: I think that you, catalina, know me well enough from some of my postings to know that I am a hard core masochist. In college, I read William L Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich soon after it was published. When he detailed some of the worst practices of the concetration-death camps, I must admit I got an erection. Dirty secret. I felt guilty about this, but I had to admit that it was a part of me that I could not deny.

I do think that slavery touches a raw nerve because it still goes on today. In Darfur, in the Oriental trading of sex slaves, and in the imprisonment of young women from the old easten block in such civilized places as the USA, France, England, and who knows where else.

Another area I thought of this week was slave naming. Where did it begin in history and in D/s terms? I know I have a slave name which also reflects the culture and nationality of F, and that in the Old South and Australian history it was not unheard of to issue a name more related to the owners than the slave's origins. Does anyone have other historical knowledge of it existing?

Yes many, if not most slaves, were given the names of their owners. Today, there is almost no town in the southern USA of any size that does not have a number of black people who have my name. I once worked for a large company that had a black or African American lady who had the same name as I have. We both knew the reason for this, never discussed it, became the best of friends, and told anyone who inquired that we were brother and sister.
Both of us knew that neither of us could alter the past.

As far as D/s and Germany goes, there was a movie made in the "70 that expored this. "The Night Porter" tells the story of a Nazi SS officer who found the perfect masochist in a inmate and the inmate who found the sadist she didn't know that she was looking for. The realtionship was so strong that when they find each other again in post-war 1955 Vienna, they abandon everything to resume their relationship.

People are surprising. And, it truly is the case that we never should say never.

I always find your posts to be the sort that cause me to stop and think.
That is imortant. I really do thank you for that. It isn't always comfortable but it is necessary. Thanks again for being the person you are.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Of course not, because you are talking about your personal fantasies.

But switching to a discussion of reality here....

Do you consider the European slave traffickers in the tale to be comparable to Francisco?

Does the slavery suffered by those women seem comparable to the slavery enjoyed by Catalina?

That's my point here. Fantasy is one thing. But a discussion of historical realities is something else altogether.

who says i would want it to stay fantasy?
and yes i do find many similarities in the traffikers and bdsm type dominants.
Does cat suffer? Im betting she does....often. Whether she enjoys it or not is not an issue either...sorta just like the girl in the story.
Im betting there is at least one or two girls in this situation grinning from ear to ear when no one is looking..... i would be.

 

[alice_underneath]

who says i would want it to stay fantasy?
and yes i do find many similarities in the traffikers and bdsm type dominants.
Does cat suffer? Im betting she does....often. Whether she enjoys it or not is not an issue either...sorta just like the girl in the story.
Im betting there is at least one or two girls in this situation grinning from ear to ear when no one is looking..... i would be.

It is hard to convey tone in a post, and you don't know me well. So I would like to state, upfront, that there is no malice and no sarcasm in my message here.

If being taken by force and enslaved by strangers is your true desire, Kajira Callista, then I sincerely hope it happens to you.

I hope this happens for two reasons. First, it would make you happy. And second, it would spare another woman unspeakable agony.



Respectfully,
Alice

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Bah, we're all adults here. Obviously there is something sexual about slavery to us, otherwise we wouldn't be on this forum. Every picture of a whip doesn't need a disclaimer: "This must only be used in good clean consensual fun!" Sheesh.

Agree with most of this point Quint , however not every member of the Forum identifies with slavery. Hence in my situation where I recognise, appreciate and accept other Adults that best relate to being a slave in their Lifestyle choice it certainly is not one I share.

I am not offended by their choices, its quite evident its a valid expression and I see the dignity of embracing and living that choice in the Year 2006 between consenting adults irrespect of the fetish/kink they express within that relationship.

Words I do not believe would have been used in comments by slaves about slavery 100 years ago would be :

accept, appreciate , choice , valid expression, dignity , embracing , consenting.

That is considering they were permited to read or write let alone educated to do so...........

I myself in fullfillment/emulation of lifestyle nor sexual prediliction aspire to slavery either in the Historical notion or the perceived variance of it within the context of Ds in this Century.

In the context of a scene to me that all it is a roleplay for sexual gratification . In the context of a consensual relationship its a valid expression and frankly none of my damn business. Both of which I am fine with.

Show me a existing truth of non consensual slavery either of History or reality in this day and age which is sadly still prevelent in vast numbers and getting your kink on is the furthest from my mind. Disgust , horror and sadness better describe my reaction and I am a mere bystander to this human travesty.



And finally...................

The word 'slave' is one that I use as a Google Alert for World News storys that are sent to me daily and have been for years now. In my estimation 95% of the stories I receive that come up under that search/alert word 'slave' have nothing to do with Ds or BDSM. 'Dominant' is another example almost always related to sport or Corporate takeovers. Here is an example from a few hours ago, its actually rather tame compared to most I have read to date

Hainan Lawyers' group promises help to ex-"comfort women"
www.chinaview.cn 2006-03-23 14:18:33

HAIKOU, March 23 (Xinhua) -- A local lawyer's association promised on Wednesday to fully support a legal defence team as it continues to investigate the plight of eight local "comfort women" who were turned into sex-slaves and forced to service invading Japanese soldiers during World War II.

Liao Xiangqi, vice-president of the Hainan Lawyer Association, said the association will do its best to assist the defence team which consists of one Chinese and three Japanese volunteer attorneys. They are helping the women sue the Japanese government for compensation. The local lawyer's association's first task is to find a local lawyer who can speak the women's ethnic language.

"Although I don't have the specific date when the defence team will come to Hainan next," Liao told Xinhua, "they will come back again to find more evidence and an ethnic language-speaking local lawyer and an interpreter will be very helpful."

The eight elder women began their suit against the Japanese government at a Tokyo district court on July 16, 2001. They're asking the government to make an official apology and provide economic and spiritual compensation. They were forced to have sex with Japanese soldiers during the Japanese invasion of China in the World War II. The court closed hearings on March 22 and will announce an initial verdict in the case in three months.

All of the eight women, most of whom are in their 80s are from the Li minority and do not speak Mandarin. Living in two villages on the China's southernmost island, they are among the last survivors of many Chinese women on the island who were forced to be sex slaves during the Japanese soldier's occupation.

The defence team has been to Hainan for several times since 1996 to visit the comfort women and collect evidence. It also paid to costs for three of the comfort women, Huang Youliang, Lin Yajinand Chen Yabian to travel to Japan an provide their testimony in court.

Japan's litigation practices will allow the defence team to provide further evidence related to the case, Liao said, however the first decision of the court will be announced in about three months.

The Hainan comfort women's defence team are members of the Chinese war victims defense team, a larger group consisting of more than 300 lawyers from China and Japan. The group has voluntarily helped Chinese war victims with lawsuit since 1995. Enditem
Editor: Zhu Jin

Thank you to everyone who has shared historical landmarks, especially Joe Schmoe...this was a fascinating and thought-provoking thread.

"ditto"

 

[Kajira Callista]

It is hard to convey tone in a post, and you don't know me well. So I would like to state, upfront, that there is no malice and no sarcasm in my message here.

If being taken by force and enslaved by strangers is your true desire, Kajira Callista, then I sincerely hope it happens to you.

I hope this happens for two reasons. First, it would make you happy. And second, it would spare another woman unspeakable agony.



Respectfully,
Alice

Funny....i kinda get off on unspeakable agony.
I think this is the point too many miss.
It is all fine and good that historical slavery is a bad bad thing in your eyes, just try to remember it is seen as something very different in others eyes.
Seems to be a thing that gets overlooked way too often around here these days.

 

[PatPowers]

Not to be too reasonable here, but ...

the image I posted was from a movie. Movies are not real. They are fantasies, even when they are based on real events, cultures, etc. You deal with movies differently than you deal with reality. I find it proper to arrest and prosecute real-world slavers. I find it proper to enjoy stories about the practices of old-style slavers and to mind them for ideas for B&D fantasies. See, the "sane" part of "safe, sane and consensual" involves understanding the difference between reality and fantasy.

 

[alice_underneath]

Funny....i kinda get off on unspeakable agony.
I think this is the point too many miss.
It is all fine and good that historical slavery is a bad bad thing in your eyes, just try to remember it is seen as something very different in others eyes.
Seems to be a thing that gets overlooked way too often around here these days.

Kajira Callista,

I am honestly confused by your post.

I have been reading what you write for months now, and I believe you when you say you get off on unspeakable agony.

On this thread, you and I have been discussing modern-day forced sexual enslavement of women in Europe. You said that you thought that was hot, and that you would not want it to remain in fantasy.

I took you at your word, and validated your preferences entirely. I said - in all sincerity - if forced enslavement by strangers is what you truly desire, then I hope it happens to you.

Why do you feel that I don't understand your desires? What am I missing here?

Respectfully,
Alice

 

[Kajira Callista]

Kajira Callista,

I am honestly confused by your post.

I have been reading what you write for months now, and I believe you when you say you get off on unspeakable agony.

On this thread, you and I have been discussing modern-day forced sexual enslavement of women in Europe. You said that you thought that was hot, and that you would not want it to remain in fantasy.

I took you at your word, and validated your preferences entirely. I said - in all sincerity - if forced enslavement by strangers is what you truly desire, then I hope it happens to you.

Why do you feel that I don't understand your desires? What am I missing here?

Respectfully,
Alice

I don't even think you realize how many of your posts sound to a person like me. I come here to not be judged and to talk with like minded people.
Just a suggestion, maybe you should go back and reread things you have posted on the forum, it may help you expand yourself. Growing is always a good thing.

 

[alice_underneath]

I don't even think you realize how many of your posts sound to a person like me. I come here to not be judged and to talk with like minded people.
Just a suggestion, maybe you should go back and reread things you have posted on the forum, it may help you expand yourself. Growing is always a good thing.

You are correct. I do not understand how I sound to you.

I am not judging you at all, and I honestly don't understand how you read judgment into what I just wrote to you here.

Re-reading my posts won't help. If you are unwilling to explain it to me, then I honestly don't know what to say except I am sorry that I'm hurting your feelings.

Respectfully,
Alice

 

[Kajira Callista]

You are correct. I do not understand how I sound to you.

I am not judging you at all, and I honestly don't understand how you read judgment into what I just wrote to you here.

Re-reading my posts won't help. If you are unwilling to explain it to me, then I honestly don't know what to say except I am sorry that I'm hurting your feelings.

Respectfully,
Alice

I did explain. You didn't choose to hear so i will say it a little differently.
The explanation is in your posts.
I'm going to bed now, have a good night.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

the image I posted was from a movie. Movies are not real. They are fantasies, even when they are based on real events, cultures, etc. You deal with movies differently than you deal with reality. I find it proper to arrest and prosecute real-world slavers. I find it proper to enjoy stories about the practices of old-style slavers and to mind them for ideas for B&D fantasies. See, the "sane" part of "safe, sane and consensual" involves understanding the difference between reality and fantasy.

Perhaps it may have been prudent to share an image that is not derived from fiction or a romanticism of slavery with in a Historical context such as this one below.

I must say that even in the fetish of scarification I have yet to see any thing that could come close to this. Also the major detail that these injuries are on a human who did not consent to their slavery. Am I so naive ? Are there people within the Forum that look at this picture and aspire to physical outcomes such as this ? Who are the Dominants also may I ask content to prescribe this outcome on another in their care ?

" A common punishment for slaves who had attained reading or writing skills was amputation. Slave narratives indicate that the removal of a finger from the joint was considered a warning for stealing a book and that beheading was punishment for a repeat offense.2 Slaves could also be punished by death if they attempted to harm others. However, the basic punishment for most offenses was based on Hebraic law and required a whipping of approximately 39 lashes."

Is this a goal to aspire to of a true slave in 2006 ?

Somehow I don't think so........

 

[alice_underneath]

I did explain. You didn't choose to hear so i will say it a little differently.
The explanation is in your posts.
I'm going to bed now, have a good night.

Perhaps you are misinterpreting my assertion: "Nonconsensual slavery is an abomination and a crime against humanity."

If forced enslavement is what you personally desire, then your enslavement would not be nonconsensual as I would define it. Therefore, my assertion would not apply to you.

My assertion was talking about the women who have no desire to be abducted, raped, used, etc. I believe that their sexual slavery is a crime and an abomination. Don't you?

On this thread, you have stated that sexual enslavement by strangers is not just a fantasy of yours. It is a reality that you desire. My response was to say, essentially - I hope your dreams come true.

The fact that I have different personal preferences does not mean that I judge yours. I am not sure whose voice you are projecting onto my posts. Your mother's? A neighbor's? A minister? Someone else?

Fact is, I am none of those people.

I am taking you at your word, Kajira Callista, and would appreciate it if you return the favor.

Respectfully,
Alice

 

[Kajira Callista]

Perhaps you are misinterpreting my assertion: "Nonconsensual slavery is an abomination and a crime against humanity."

If forced enslavement is what you personally desire, then your enslavement would not be nonconsensual as I would define it. Therefore, my assertion would not apply to you.

My assertion was talking about the women who have no desire to be abducted, raped, used, etc. I believe that their sexual slavery is a crime and an abomination. Don't you?

On this thread, you have stated that sexual enslavement by strangers is not just a fantasy of yours. It is a reality that you desire. My response was to say, essentially - I hope your dreams come true.

The fact that I have different personal preferences does not mean that I judge yours. I am not sure whose voice you are projecting onto my posts. Your mother's? A neighbor's? A minister? Someone else?

Fact is, I am none of those people.

I am taking you at your word, Kajira Callista, and would appreciate it if you return the favor.

Respectfully,
Alice

I tried to help. You made a choice to not accept the help and then be sarcastic. Post on darling, you words will continue to show everyone what you refuse to see.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Am I so naive ? Are there people within the Forum that look at this picture and aspire to physical outcomes such as this ? Who are the Dominants also may I ask content to prescribe this outcome on another in their care ?


Is this a goal to aspire to of a true slave in 2006 ?

Somehow I don't think so........

LOL, I'm really not into using the term true or real slave, but to answer both questions about people in this forum aspiring to similar physical outcomes, and if it is the goal of 2006 slaves, I would have to say for some of it certainly is. Speaking for myself, I have had a huge surgical scar from mid teens which is beyond the help of the best plastic surgeon, and has caused me thoughout much of my lifetime huge issues within myself. I went to great lengths to protect and care for the rest of my skin, to a point my last vanilla partner said he had never seen, but had resulted in the most appealing outcomes in terms of touch, appearance and sensation....Francisco also appreciates this quality of my skin. Regardless, he wanted to cut me, and last yer brand me, and so I had to overcome my fears of further scarring and disfigurement, which I did. Since reaching that point, and realising what my outer self looks like does not alter who I am inside, I am no longer horrified at the thought of further scarring which I know will happen simply because he wants it, and I also enjoy the process of receiving it. Add to that it has symbolic meaning for us, then yes, I do envisage I could one day be just as scarred.

As to what Dominant would want to, Francisco is one who does because he is a sadist, he loves giving the pain and the evidence of it there forever (lol, he delights is scratching and flogging my brand these days, and before that it was my cutting). He takes pride in my wearing his scars, and he gets pleasure from seeing them, caressing them, adding to them. It isn't for everyone, but it is something more than a few hope for. Some of us are lucky enough to turn the fantasy into reality.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Of course not, because you are talking about your personal fantasies.

But switching to a discussion of reality here....

Do you consider the European slave traffickers in the tale to be comparable to Francisco?

Does the slavery suffered by those women seem comparable to the slavery enjoyed by Catalina?

That's my point here. Fantasy is one thing. But a discussion of historical realities is something else altogether.

I think both can be discussed, though some get lost in the blurry line in between at times and imagine one to be the other when it isn't more than wishful thinking and pent up frustration. For our situation, no we are not comparable to white slavery in Europe or Oz in 2006 because I sought what I wanted, just as he did. Given that though, there are also some women who go willingly into white slavery, fully aware and wanting it. As to us, consent was there initially, but I no longer have that right so he is free to do what he wants with or to me and does. I am not able to leave. I do not speak the language (hmm, that will change and in part will detract from the situation considerably). I do not have anyone here I know who I can turn to...so in those ways, my situation does resemble that of white slaves, though of a different degree and process.

Does this mean I do things that I hate, that sometimes make my skin crawl, or take every ounce of energy to endure?...yes. Do I enjoy it? Now this is where it gets tricky for many people (KC gets it though, as do a couple of others), but ultimately, yes I do. You see there are things which I have fantasised for years and wanted and can enjoy, then there are things which have been of nightmare proportions which I have not felt I could enjoy and which on the level most understand, I don't. In reality it is those things I ultimately enjoy the most because I love that feeling of disgust, of being controlled, of being humiliated,of being degraded, of being hurt to fulfil his sadistic delights, of being used to allow him to enjoy the power he has over me, of being what some would class as abused, of feeling every cell in my body screaming 'no' while I am enduring or preparing for what is to come and which I would never of my own free will have subjected myself too...and yet I have by submitting to it...that is what makes me tick. Do I want it to change? Yes, I want it to be increased, I want more of the dark place, and I want to feel that disempowering feeling of being owned to the ultimate. You don't want to know where my mind wanders sometimes when musing on what he could do to me, and how I would feel about it.

Catalina

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

LOL, I'm really not into using the term true or real slave, but to answer both questions about people in this forum aspiring to similar physical outcomes, and if it is the goal of 2006 slaves, I would have to say for some of it certainly is. Speaking for myself, I have had a huge surgical scar from mid teens which is beyond the help of the best plastic surgeon, and has caused me thoughout much of my lifetime huge issues within myself. I went to great lengths to protect and care for the rest of my skin, to a point my last vanilla partner said he had never seen, but had resulted in the most appealing outcomes in terms of touch, appearance and sensation....Francisco also appreciates this quality of my skin. Regardless, he wanted to cut me, and last yer brand me, and so I had to overcome my fears of further scarring and disfigurement, which I did. Since reaching that point, and realising what my outer self looks like does not alter who I am inside, I am no longer horrified at the thought of further scarring which I know will happen simply because he wants it, and I also enjoy the process of receiving it. Add to that it has symbolic meaning for us, then yes, I do envisage I could one day be just as scarred.

As to what Dominant would want to, Francisco is one who does because he is a sadist, he loves giving the pain and the evidence of it there forever (lol, he delights is scratching and flogging my brand these days, and before that it was my cutting). He takes pride in my wearing his scars, and he gets pleasure from seeing them, caressing them, adding to them. It isn't for everyone, but it is something more than a few hope for. Some of us are lucky enough to turn the fantasy into reality.

Catalina

Catalina first permit me to thank you for being so candid with your reply. I must admit though I am somewhat surprised that you consider its viable that you may be one day as scarred as the slave in the picture I posted. To the degree those scars in the picture show that man probably had restriction of movement and daily ongoing complications. Thats without any consideration to emotional outcome under the circumstances he received them which was as you and I both know a huge leap from your circumstances with Francisco. I also hazard a guess this man received no appropriate medical aftercare to each session of punishment that led to the thickness and mutation of his skin surface. Does part of Francisco's sadism extend to you not receiving appropriate care after a branding, cutting or flogging ? I viewed your branding pictures and comments last year when you returned and were sharing the different phases ,they were very interesting. I also think its rather cool you share them in as much as you have so others can learn and hear first hand your personal comments.

I really think however its quite important when considering Historical D/s that even though there may be some commonality of outcome by choice that it still remains very clear that even though a providence may be shared in these topics people are quite clear they are not defining themselves as 'real /true' slaves in a Historical sense. I am not saying History needs to be homogenized to make it more palatable and easier to contend with either in making this comment. Its a very disturbing subject but outside coincidence of sadistic application and outcome the there is little more of either existence truly reflected in each other.

If you do in fact make your fantasies real Catalina and Francisco chooses to take your physical form to the degree witnessed in the picture above and you share them I won't be reviled in horror , I respect its a journey you have chosen .

@}-}rebecca----

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina first permit me to thank you for being so candid with your reply. I must admit though I am somewhat surprised that you consider its viable that you may be one day as scarred as the slave in the picture I posted. To the degree those scars in the picture show that man probably had restriction of movement and daily ongoing complications. Thats without any consideration to emotional outcome under the circumstances he received them which was as you and I both know a huge leap from your circumstances with Francisco. I also hazard a guess this man received no appropriate medical aftercare to each session of punishment that led to the thickness and mutation of his skin surface. Does part of Francisco's sadism extend to you not receiving appropriate care after a branding, cutting or flogging ? I viewed your branding pictures and comments last year when you returned and were sharing the different phases ,they were very interesting. I also think its rather cool you share them in as much as you have so others can learn and hear first hand your personal comments.

I really think however its quite important when considering Historical D/s that even though there may be some commonality of outcome by choice that it still remains very clear that even though a providence may be shared in these topics people are quite clear they are not defining themselves as 'real /true' slaves in a Historical sense. I am not saying History needs to be homogenized to make it more palatable and easier to contend with either in making this comment. Its a very disturbing subject but outside coincidence of sadistic application and outcome the there is little more of either existence truly reflected in each other.

If you do in fact make your fantasies real Catalina and Francisco chooses to take your physical form to the degree witnessed in the picture above and you share them I won't be reviled in horror , I respect its a journey you have chosen .

@}-}rebecca----

Though we share much of what we do, there is a lot which does not necessarily get posted about our life unless it comes up in a topic discussion. F cares for me, loves me to the end of the earth, and at times cares for me physically when I am ill or I have an injury, but not always. He is very much into my taking care of myself as his property. He takes it seriously, and has on occasion had something to say about my having an accident which has injured his property...where some would be all concerned and fussing, he often sees it as my neglect and careless behaviour with what is his property and expects me to continue as well as I can and to take care of whatever it is in the best way I can. With the branding, he administered initial first aid that night, but after that it was up to me. Similar with floggings etc. When it was all new he would administer care, but we have passed that phase and he will sometimes check the damage more out of curiosity, sometimes apply something, but most times not. We have first aid kits throughout the house, but often they gather dust from lack of use. LOL, part of it might be I have the magic Paw Paw ointment from Oz to fall back on if anything gets seriously infected (that stuff is priceless....instant fix for so many thing!!), so unless it does, that sense of security and laziness often prevents me from doctoring my wounds.

Catalina

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Though we share much of what we do, there is a lot which does not necessarily get posted about our life unless it comes up in a topic discussion. F cares for me, loves me to the end of the earth, and at times cares for me physically when I am ill or I have an injury, but not always. He is very much into my taking care of myself as his property. He takes it seriously, and has on occasion had something to say about my having an accident which has injured his property...where some would be all concerned and fussing, he often sees it as my neglect and careless behaviour with what is his property and expects me to continue as well as I can and to take care of whatever it is in the best way I can. With the branding, he administered initial first aid that night, but after that it was up to me. Similar with floggings etc. When it was all new he would administer care, but we have passed that phase and he will sometimes check the damage more out of curiosity, sometimes apply something, but most times not. We have first aid kits throughout the house, but often they gather dust from lack of use

Smiles...and I 'get' alot of that.

LOL, part of it might be I have the magic Paw Paw ointment from Oz to fall back on if anything gets seriously infected (that stuff is priceless....instant fix for so many thing!!), so unless it does, that sense of security and laziness often prevents me from doctoring my wounds.

Catalina

Really sticky and in a dark red tube ?

 

[alice_underneath]

I tried to help. You made a choice to not accept the help and then be sarcastic. Post on darling, you words will continue to show everyone what you refuse to see.

Telling me to reread my own posts is not a genuine effort to help. It is nothing more than a nasty swipe.

There was no sarcasm in my post, Kajira Callista. I rarely employ sarcasm in writing or speaking, and never when someone has indicated that I hurt their feelings.

I honestly have no idea what I did to piss you off to the point where you adopt this hostile view toward me.

Last night, you addressed me with this assertion: "I come here to not be judged and to talk with like minded people."

Since I have never once described your personal sexual preferences in pejorative terms, or judged your sexuality in any way, I can only assume that what really bothers you about me is my own sexual proclivities.

If that's the case, then there's certainly a fair amount of irony in you accusing me of being judgmental.

Respectfully,
Alice

 

[alice_underneath]

I think both can be discussed, though some get lost in the blurry line in between at times and imagine one to be the other when it isn't more than wishful thinking and pent up frustration. For our situation, no we are not comparable to white slavery in Europe or Oz in 2006 because I sought what I wanted, just as he did. Given that though, there are also some women who go willingly into white slavery, fully aware and wanting it. As to us, consent was there initially, but I no longer have that right so he is free to do what he wants with or to me and does. I am not able to leave. I do not speak the language (hmm, that will change and in part will detract from the situation considerably). I do not have anyone here I know who I can turn to...so in those ways, my situation does resemble that of white slaves, though of a different degree and process.

Catalina,

I understand and agree with everything you have just said.

It is the blurring of the lines between fantasy & reality - on a thread discussing historical realities - that I was objecting to in my earlier comments. I appreciate your remarks here, clearly delineating between the two.

Even as we speak, there are thousands of women all over the world who are being forcibly taken from their families, their homes, and their lives to be repeatedly raped, beaten, humiliated, etc. Part of the agony for them is physical, and part of it is the fact that their family and friends are no longer present in their lives.

Did they leave behind children, who will no longer have the benefit of their love and care? Friends, with whom they will never laugh again? A parent who mourns their abduction? A garden they can never tend? A job or pastime they enjoyed?

All of these things are the elements of nonconsensual slavery, as you know. That is why I describe it as an abomination and a crime against humanity. Of all the hideous things that human beings do to one another, surely nonconsensual slavery is right up there at the top of the list.

I believe you when you say that there are women who would go willingly into white slavery, and as I said to Kajira Callista - if that is their dream, I hope it comes true. There is no sarcasm and no malice in that statement. If that is what they want or need, then their slavery is (in my opinion) legitimate.

Alice

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina,

I understand and agree with everything you have just said.

It is the blurring of the lines between fantasy & reality - on a thread discussing historical realities - that I was objecting to in my earlier comments. I appreciate your remarks here, clearly delineating between the two.


Alice

Hmm, wasn't exactly what I meant. I was more refferring to how for many it is all a very fun, fantasy type world (D/s I mean) which they use to masturbate to, sometimes to impress their friends or strangers, but when faced with someone who lives it seriously and as a reality daily, they are shocked and outraged, often disbelieving, and begin judging or backing away with statements like 'that is just sick', all becasue it is not their reality but they like to toy with the idea it is or could be.

I think it is very legitimate to discuss the history of slavery as a reality on a thread related to present day D/s. Most people feel uncomfortable with the topic and associating it in anyway with consensual activities, but there is a link, and in terms of present day slavery there is a percentage of women who have chosen to enter that way of life for reasons of their own, some D/s related, some not, so once again there is that blending. There is also a place always IMO for discussing history without sanitising, and with an open mind, because there will always be those anomilies whereby what is believed to be the truth for all, is sometimes not. For instance, just as slavery in real terms historically is regarded as abominable and something no-one ever chose or would choose, there are those both in history and today who do choose it for one reason or another, and some who even when offered freedom chose to remain enslaved. It is a fact, but not one which is popular to discuss, because it then weakens the outrage of those who want only to present one side of the whole equation...that being non-consensual and horrible beyond all your worst nightmares. Both realities existed and exist, but not both are given equal airing or acceptance to discuss.

Catalina