Historical D/s

[alice_underneath]

There is also a place always IMO for discussing history without sanitising, and with an open mind, because there will always be those anomilies whereby what is believed to be the truth for all, is sometimes not.

We appear to be in vehement agreement on that point, Catalina.

The difference between most of our remarks on this thread is that you are pointing out the similarities between your enslavement and the nonconsensual enslavement of others. I, on the other hand, am pointing out the differences.

One difference that I noted (and you acknowledged) is that you chose your enslavement. As an additional point, I would note that you chose your Master as well. Unlike most of the European women currently enslaved by human traffickers, you selected the man who owns you.

Francisco does not post here often. However, as far as I can tell.... this guy is no Simon Legree.

I live a 24/7 lifestyle with my wife and slave Catalina, we have a loose relationship in which although I am clearly the Dominant I also do not feel the need to reassert my dominance with every word or with every action. I do not enforce any title except when we are alone and playing a scene. I do demand however obedience and I do punish my property when she is disobedient.

You ask how we live our life, to give you clear examples of what it entails. Those are more difficult to realize than you imagine, sometimes the difference between living a 24/7 TPE relationship (which is how I normally classify my particular flavor of BDSM) and a ‘vanilla’ marriage are quite small. But I will give it a try, I will describe to you my day today.

I woke up at 6:30 AM, the alarm had been set by Catalina just like she does every night for me. After some gentle (my ribs still hurt from the gentleness) poking from her into my side, I crawled out of bed and dragged myself to the shower. Sometimes Catalina will soap me while I am standing under the shower and sometimes not. On occasion I will ask her to soap me in and on occasion she will decide she wants to soap me herself. This morning she did not soap me.

When I got out of the shower, Catalina had laid out the clothes I was going to wear to work. She had neatly folded them on top of the clothes basket and had made sure I had a freshly ironed shirt. She normally irons my shirts just before I go to work so they are freshly ironed since she knows I like the feeling of a freshly ironed, still warm shirt. When I got down to our living room, she had already prepared my coffee just as I like to have it, a double espresso with a little bit of milk, together with a glass of Multivitamin.

I drank my coffee and the multivitamin and watch the news. Packed my laptop and left for work. During work I called her twice to tell her how much I loved her and we talked online. When I got home she was watching her soap, I do often not understand how an intelligent woman can enjoy a soap which is really extremely bad, but I watch the ending of it with her anyway (secretly I enjoy watching the soap too, but do not tell Catalina that).

We watched television together for awhile, before she stood up went to the kitchen and prepared diner. She served dinner to me and she sat down next to me and we had our dinner together. Some days I will tell her to kneel next to me and have her dinner like that, and I might tell her to serve her dinner in a dog bowl and eat from it if I feel like humiliating her.

After dinner I went online and read the forums on literotica. As you can see not much excitement today, however tonight we will have sex as we do almost everyday have and most likely that will involve some spanking, or whipping or caning.

This is a very normal day for us and really not much different than a ‘normal’ married couple.

Francisco.

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=15657785&postcount=32

 

[catalina_francisco]

We appear to be in vehement agreement on that point, Catalina.

The difference between most of our remarks on this thread is that you are pointing out the similarities between your enslavement and the nonconsensual enslavement of others. I, on the other hand, am pointing out the differences.

One difference that I noted (and you acknowledged) is that you chose your enslavement. As an additional point, I would note that you chose your Master as well. Unlike most of the European women currently enslaved by human traffickers, you selected the man who owns you.

Francisco does not post here often. However, as far as I can tell.... this guy is no Simon Legree.


https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=15657785&postcount=32

Sheeesh, I started this thread because I saw the original link from a highly respected member of the D/s community in Europe who was seeking help with yet another area of his research...and it is also an area that interests me so I thought it might also interest others, and by spreading the request, perhaps net more information for myself and possibly the researcher Dominant. It had nothing to do with my personal opinion of D/s, my slavery, or my wanting to connect my personal experience to history in any way other than it is for anyone else into this lifestyle. Yes, I used examples of my life experience when it started coming into question that this thread and the subject had any relevance because it usually pays with some people to use something actual and factual, than a vague claim of something unspecified.

I did not raise the topic of present day slavery in Europe...I think you did...and I did not try to sanitise the topic to present only a one sided view, though I did present another in defence of the one that was presented that all slavery outside D/s was non-consensual and not valid or welcomed to be discussed here, and was offensive. I did not agree as it is valid, it isn't all non-consensual, and beside that fact, getting back to the original topic, there are similarities and areas where definite connections can be seen between aspects of historical examples of slavery and present day consensual slavery. Add to that, the original topic is about similarities, not differences, and I think if anything, raising over and over the insensitivity and moral outrage against non-consensual slavery is the one most fitting the description of not fitting here. I have no problem with discussing slavery on any level, good and bad, but when it gets pointed out I am continuing to talk about similarities in a thread I started to look at similarities (note: not differences), it begins to get ridiculous and more about pushing your personal issues in an effort to stop what you said earlier you did not agree with being discussed here.

I am well aware of slavery in various eras and parts of the world, and present day, and no, I don't agree with anyone going and grabbing women off the street in today's world, but that was not the topic and that is not the full story as you want to present and concentrate attention on. I am sorry if you are not getting the connections, either historically or in aspects of real D/s some live and are prepared to live consensually, but as I have said, this is a BDSM board which discusses this lifestyle, often with people who have had to fight the judgements of others to feel comfortable with living their reality.

As to Francisco, no he doesn't post here much anymore because he got fed up with things such as this and like many other Dominants I have asked to visit here, doesn't get a lot of value or reality from more than a handful of posters, many who do not post here very often anymore...in short, he gets frustrated, so he visits rarely. As to him not being a Simon Legree...firstly, I agree, he is real while Simon Legree was a fictional character and here lies the problem with many who are fascinated with BDSM - they deal too much in fiction and fantasy and very little in reality, or perhaps more to the point, as I said earlier, getting the lines blurred and comparing one to the other as if they are one in the same when they are not. Secondly, I never claimed he was, though I gather you still imagine he is a nice little pussycat who is doting and caring and would never do anything 'too bad' because that isn't love...LOL, well on that note you couldn't be farther from the truth because as more than a few will tell you, for those of us who like it this way, that is exactly what we call love...not to mention as in most things, there does not have to be an either/or situation, you can enjoy the best balance of both extremes in the one man. I just thank the universe I met a man who when I return home from overseas, he arranges secretly a special welcome home which includes a permanent branding, no restraints, no option to back out, followed by a flogging...I love roses, but that sure beat a big bunch anyday!!

Catalina

 

[alice_underneath]

I did not raise the topic of present day slavery in Europe...

The present is history in the making, is it not? You were the one who inserted forced slavery into this thread, with this post about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings:

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=16600931&postcount=4

This is your thread, and if you would like to include forced slavery into your discussion of "Historical D/s", that is obviously your right.

However, once you have done so, a discussion of both the similarities and the differences seems appropriate to me.

As to him not being a Simon Legree...firstly, I agree, he is real while Simon Legree was a fictional character and here lies the problem with many who are fascinated with BDSM - they deal too much in fiction and fantasy and very little in reality, or perhaps more to the point, as I said earlier, getting the lines blurred and comparing one to the other as if they are one in the same when they are not. Secondly, I never claimed he was, though I gather you still imagine he is a nice little pussycat who is doting and caring and would never do anything 'too bad' because that isn't love...LOL, well on that note you couldn't be farther from the truth because as more than a few will tell you, for those of us who like it this way, that is exactly what we call love...not to mention as in most things, there does not have to be an either/or situation, you can enjoy the best balance of both extremes in the one man.

Part of my point in holding up Francisco as a contrast to "Simon Legree" was to highlight the fact that your relationship is not fantasy or roleplay. You mentioned those who blur fantasy and reality, and part of my point was to honor your relationship as very real indeed.

Another part of my point in making the contrast was to highlight the difference between a truly evil taskmaster and your husband. Francisco's own words (not mine) show him to be loving and at times playful and tender.

Of course, I am aware that he can choose the times when he is tender and playful. At other times, I have no doubt that he is just a sadistic and cruel as you want him to be.

You enjoy "the best balance of both extremes", and I think that is wonderful.

Alice

 

[Kajira Callista]

Telling me to reread my own posts is not a genuine effort to help. It is nothing more than a nasty swipe.

There was no sarcasm in my post, Kajira Callista. I rarely employ sarcasm in writing or speaking, and never when someone has indicated that I hurt their feelings.

I honestly have no idea what I did to piss you off to the point where you adopt this hostile view toward me.

Last night, you addressed me with this assertion: "I come here to not be judged and to talk with like minded people."

Since I have never once described your personal sexual preferences in pejorative terms, or judged your sexuality in any way, I can only assume that what really bothers you about me is my own sexual proclivities.

If that's the case, then there's certainly a fair amount of irony in you accusing me of being judgmental.

Respectfully,
Alice

If i was to take a swipe at you (which i do very very very rarely) you would still be feeling the sting of it.
You read my posts with your own emotion added in. Unfortunately you dont know me well enough to read the emotion behind my posts.
I made a simple observation and a suggestion to you, it seems to have annoyed you for some reason. You didn't like the suggestion... that is not my problem, nor will I lose any sleep over it.
One day, with some experience, you will understand the post i made way back there in this thread...




...or not.

 

[alice_underneath]

I made a simple observation and a suggestion to you, it seems to have annoyed you for some reason.

Nope. I am truly not annoyed by your comments on this thread, Kajira Callista. Confused - absolutely. But annoyed? Not even a little bit.

Respectfully,
Alice

 

[Kajira Callista]

Nope. I am truly not annoyed by your comments on this thread, Kajira Callista. Confused - absolutely. But annoyed? Not even a little bit.

Respectfully,
Alice

If you are confused then perhaps you should reread them.

 

[alice_underneath]

If you are confused then perhaps you should reread them.

LOL.....

 

[catalina_francisco]

The present is history in the making, is it not? You were the one who inserted forced slavery into this thread, with this post about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings:

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=16600931&postcount=4

I am aware I introduced that reference, because it also presents a different view to the stereotypical one you are concentrating on (namely a positive one..I like positives), and shows that there can be a human relationship between an Owner and slave and has been more than once throughout history...that relates to D/s in the way many of us live it as a loving relationship. Didn't Jefferson release Sally Hemmings children from slavery? Not something that was in keeping with the habit of the day, but perhaps something in keeping with the love shared between two people who were limited by the time they lived in as to how they could express and live their love.

As to history being the present in the making, just so happens in the past week this came up on a quiz show and it was said it does not become history until that time is no longer in the present...and understood we are not speaking in terms of minutes or days when talking about history in the normal sense.

This is your thread, and if you would like to include forced slavery into your discussion of "Historical D/s", that is obviously your right.

No, I started the thread, ownership of it belongs to the forum and Lit, but it is generally understood that to keep things in some sort of order, we try and stick to the introduced topic otherwise we go to a chat room or IM where we can jump from one topic to another willy nilly. As to including forced slavery in relation to linking present day to history....ummm, did I miss something or washistoricxal slavery consensual?!! Once again, it was not meant to be a debate about the moral rightness or not of historical slavery, but looking at how we have drawn on those experiences to inform our chosen consensual slavery rituals and symbolism...it is difficult to do that if we don't mention there was such a thing as slavery and for instance how collars were used then and how they are used now.

However, once you have done so, a discussion of both the similarities and the differences seems appropriate to me.

Exactly, appropriate to you. Part of the topic description was similarities, not differences of the right or wrong of slavery, but you want to make it into that discussion which so far from you has not contained much about similarities of historical symbolism and practices to modern D/s, but has included your personal view of how abominable non-consensual slavery is and how it is offensive to discuss here. If you want to discuss differences, by all means introduce a thread to do that, but it is not what this thread is about.

Part of my point in holding up Francisco as a contrast to "Simon Legree" was to highlight the fact that your relationship is not fantasy or roleplay. You mentioned those who blur fantasy and reality, and part of my point was to honor your relationship as very real indeed.

Another part of my point in making the contrast was to highlight the difference between a truly evil taskmaster and your husband. Francisco's own words (not mine) show him to be loving and at times playful and tender.

Part of F's dissatisfaction with this forum and many like it often means he presents a bare minumum these days knowing those who understand read between the lines...hence he made up a typical day which was boring and would appeal to those who are sure that D/s 24/7 really doesn't exist. Yes, what he presented was a nice, ordinary day, devoid of much detail of the D/s (especially as much of it is psychological and not understood by some because it cannot be said in a simple explanation of 'you do xyz, and then you get abc', and like many, he gets frustrated trying to justify and explain something which is primarily our reality and business and still is questioned and misinterpreted). What went over your head was that those who live it and also know him and I better, realise what he presented was like an iceberg...the majority of it remains out of view but no less real. Yes, he is loving, but as I said, not always in ways you understand as loving, but I do. Add to that, the reason so many argue about the correctness of 24/7 as a term unless one wields a whip 24/7 literally is because they are caught up in an unrealistic idea from reading too much porn, and so yes, as he said, the description he presented was 'that' day, and a work day at that which means he is gone 12-16 hours and usually not feeling like coming home to immediately take up whip and flogger and get to work on his slave's unworthy flesh for the next hour or two.

Of course, I am aware that he can choose the times when he is tender and playful. At other times, I have no doubt that he is just a sadistic and cruel as you want him to be.

See, this shows you still do not understand....it is not a matter of him being what I want him to be. He is the Master here, I chose him out of many because we shared the same vision of D/s and he was a sadist of a level that appealed to me, and for that reason a relationship developed between us as it usually does when 2 people find in each other what they were seeking and hoping for. If he had been a drip who waited and needed me to direct him, he would have got sent home as some others I sent home for other reasons, but still reasons which meant we were going in different directions.

Catalina

 

[alice_underneath]

Of course, I am aware that he can choose the times when he is tender and playful. At other times, I have no doubt that he is just a sadistic and cruel as you want him to be.

See, this shows you still do not understand....it is not a matter of him being what I want him to be. He is the Master here, I chose him out of many because we shared the same vision of D/s and he was a sadist of a level that appealed to me

Catalina, the bolded portion of your statement is exactly what I was trying to convey when I said:

"I have no doubt that he is just a sadistic and cruel as you want him to be."

Alice

 

[PatPowers]

Perhaps it may have been prudent to share an image that is not derived from fiction or a romanticism of slavery with in a Historical context such as this one below.

I must say that even in the fetish of scarification I have yet to see any thing that could come close to this. Also the major detail that these injuries are on a human who did not consent to their slavery. Am I so naive ? Are there people within the Forum that look at this picture and aspire to physical outcomes such as this ? Who are the Dominants also may I ask content to prescribe this outcome on another in their care ?

Um, you DID read the part where I said it was appropriate to respond differently to real slavery and to fictional accounts of same, didn't you? Is somebody who gets off on a shot of a Roman slavegirl serving at an orgy in a B movie the same thing as a real-life rapist? 'Cause I've read that Roman masters were legally allowed to have sex with their slavegirls whenever they liked, whether the slavegirls wanted to or not. In fact, I believe the same privilege extended to male slaves. It was a terrible practice, to be sure -- institutionalized rape. But perhaps movies about it are not the same thing as the thing itself, eh?

Let's make some meaningful distinctions here.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Let's make some meaningful distinctions here.

I did

 

[LadyAria]

Wow, what a thread. I don't even know what to write, but thanks. I love the idea of exploring historical relationships.

My mind goes to (Wanda) Aurora Rümelin and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch where they lived out his Venus in Furs fanatasies

 

[catalina_francisco]

Really sticky and in a dark red tube ?

LOL, I got one of those last time I was home for in the kitchen, but mainly I have the big MF red jars of it around the house and in the toy department.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

"I had the choice to submit to this."

That is the difference. Right there. And - unless you have taken that last letter out of your SSC creed - this difference invalidates your comparison completely.

You are the one rewriting history here, Catalina. You are romanticizing and eroticizing a heinous practice - the forced ownership of one human being by another. In doing so, you whitewash the atrocity. And that is censorship, of the worst possible kind.

To say that these comments in any way invalidate what you, personally, choose to do is preposterous. The topic of this thread is: Historical D/s. That "s" is a reality for you, Catalina. But it was not a reality for Sally Hemings, or the human being portrayed in the photograph of an English slave put on this thread by Pat Powers. You chose to submit to your slavery, and those human beings did not.

Alice

Missed this yesterday, but if I hadn't it would have saved me a lot of typing. There is no way to communicate with someone who has a singular mindset and wants to obscure the whole picture in favour of the singular stereotypical one which makes millions for publishers and movies makers alike, not to mention continually twist the words and actions of others for their own amusement. You seem to have the view the rest of us do not know anything historically about slavery, and to discuss it in terms of connections to D/s (collars, slave names, registration numbers, ownership rights etc) is outright wrong and advocating non-consensual slavery...I'm sorry, that is one connection I don't see. As I said before, this is a BDSM board and should be a place where those who live it or honestly wish to explore it without censure and judgement can come and feel safe and accepted. While most of us are willing to help others understand and perhaps be aware of some of the pitfalls possible, we are not here to be abused, judged, and labeled by someone who does not seem to understand the simplist concepts of what we live and why. I am sorry you have not gotten it after all these months, but sometimes that is the problem of getting too wound up in the glorified mostly fictional porn version intended for sexual stimulation, instead of the cold hard reality.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

Renaissance, Impressionist Edwin Long
"Babylonian Marriage Market"

A comment and a question...

This is an interesting painting and for those who understand the Renaissance period, it is interesting how this whole scene is portrayed in such a prestine manner. Of course many of the painters of this time period seem to paint their impression which is an interesting aspect to discuss in itself. How truly skewd is this impression of what the real Babylonian Marriage Market looked like? And why try to make an impression which would be other than the reality of it?

My question as it relates to this thread...To Catillina or anyone who may know. Is there a simillar or equivilant type of behavior in D/s today as a practice? Like perhaps training slaves or submissives with the intent to give them away? Honestly don't know or if there is, that's why I am asking.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You make some very valid points. Of course, there are all sorts of connections. I suppose that in some ways, a lot of this touches some still sore nerves. Without detail, I can say that my family arrived in the southern colonies of the present USA in the 1630's. By the time of the American Revolution my ancestors were wealthy and owned literaly hundreds of slaves. In fact it was my great grandfather who freed his slaves on Lincoln's issuing of the Emanicapation Proclamation. My grandfather was a child who was there that day and told the story to my father who was born in 1892- less than 30 years after the Civil War ended. (In my family, it seems everyone lives a hundred years or more.-That has it's good and bad points. Bad point is that few of us ever meet our grandparents. My paternal grandmother died five years before I was born at the age of 101.--My father was already in his fifties. And he was the youngest of 20 children.) Anyway, I got the family history at most points from those only one generation from the events. The family history is not one of which one can be proud. But it did happen and cannot be denied.

So, yes. there is a connection. But I do like to keep clear the difference between legalized chatttel slavery and the freely chosen type. I know that there are people in a D/s relationship that truly are slaves. I once came very close to that myself. Nevertheless, it was my choice. And yes, there were the connectons to historical slavery. I guess this is something of a raw nerve.

Really dirty confession: I think that you, catalina, know me well enough from some of my postings to know that I am a hard core masochist. In college, I read William L Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich soon after it was published. When he detailed some of the worst practices of the concetration-death camps, I must admit I got an erection. Dirty secret. I felt guilty about this, but I had to admit that it was a part of me that I could not deny.

I do think that slavery touches a raw nerve because it still goes on today. In Darfur, in the Oriental trading of sex slaves, and in the imprisonment of young women from the old easten block in such civilized places as the USA, France, England, and who knows where else.



Yes many, if not most slaves, were given the names of their owners. Today, there is almost no town in the southern USA of any size that does not have a number of black people who have my name. I once worked for a large company that had a black or African American lady who had the same name as I have. We both knew the reason for this, never discussed it, became the best of friends, and told anyone who inquired that we were brother and sister.
Both of us knew that neither of us could alter the past.

As far as D/s and Germany goes, there was a movie made in the "70 that expored this. "The Night Porter" tells the story of a Nazi SS officer who found the perfect masochist in a inmate and the inmate who found the sadist she didn't know that she was looking for. The realtionship was so strong that when they find each other again in post-war 1955 Vienna, they abandon everything to resume their relationship.

People are surprising. And, it truly is the case that we never should say never.

I always find your posts to be the sort that cause me to stop and think.
That is imortant. I really do thank you for that. It isn't always comfortable but it is necessary. Thanks again for being the person you are.

Didn't want this to get lost in the pile and apologise, but guess it was obvious I was a little steamed yesterday. Great post. Thanks for sharing your family history as I think those things go a long way toward creating a real and whole picture of what has been and is as you say, still happening, even in my own country, as well as showing what good can come out of the bad. Of course one of the reasons I like to present the whole picture funnily enough, is because I have been a long term campaigner against and messenger of the unspeakable acts of abuse and slavery in my own country...the famed Oz which probably due to distance and size, and lots of white politicians and folk who find the truth distasteful so better off denied and buried deep, manage to hide the dirty secrets from most of the world. Sheesh, it was not until 1975 that our indigenous people were classed as people...up until then, they had been listed under flora and fauna!! Despite the changes though, many of them are still abused, are still treated as third class citizens and worse, have difficulty getting jobs based on race, are housed on reserves without running, clean water, sanitation, or fresh food...and where food is brought in, it often is rotting (yes, I have seen the green meat there) and is priced exoribitantly high compared to mainstream communities.

Despite all that, for me, while they are hiding the bad truths, it does not compute in my brain that the way to handle that is to bury any evidence of good and merciful, even positive things performed by people in the context of the subject. How does that help anyone? Has slavery stopped because the image we are more often than not fed is the one of horror and abuse? No. To deny and/or bury the stories of those who have another side to present to me is also abusive and supportive of the continued abuse by presenting a limited and skewed knowledge base from which people draw opinions. It is IMHO how racism and hatred thrive in the world...a narrow, cleverly designed picture is fed to the masses, many of whom do not stop and think, do not ask questions, but suck it up and spew forth more hatred.

For instance, as you mentioned, there is the history of Afro Americans coming from slavery....the common and stereotypical picture which is concentrated on is that of the oppressed, the abused, the enslaved with no dignity, the bottom of the heap...then where does that go? In my thinking, it comes out in a subconcious and often conscious view that people of that race are disempowered, are not as good and strong as their white counterparts, have a history of taking what is dished out, and are not worthy, hence racism breeds and thrives. I may be wrong, but I like the idea of balancing it out to some degree by presenting real stories of those who did not cave in, found ways to make the best of their unsavoury situation, advanced themselves, became people others looked up to and came to for help, advice, comfort...thus then not all people rom that heritage have to be saddled with one image, one reality, one outcome and can be seen to be just as diverse, strong, worthy and survival minded as the white population. Presenting both sides of the story does not deny one or the other their voice, their story, their history but instead enhances it and makes if fuller, more real (as without all the realities, it is only partially told and biased). I think one of the biggest problems the human race (well western society anyway) has, is they see everything in an either/or POV, rarely a balanced situation where there is room for more than one choice, one reality. There seems to be a lack of ability, or more likely willingness, to accept the whole picture and balance it out in a way where everyone is heard, everyone is validated, and steps forward can be made in a way whioch benifits more than one group at one time. Does this all make sense? LOL, my lecturers at Uni used to say they always looked forward to and sometimes dreaded my assignments because often they made them think along lines they never had, and sometimes had to change beliefs they had held for decades...was amusing, interesting, and got me top marks!!

ROFLMAO, and I wasn't going to discuss slavery in this context on this thread, but your post was good and sparked thoughts which had to come out before they festered and blew my brains out!! Thanks for cranking the brain cells over on this gorgeous morning despite my sore butt trying to tunnel them into one area. Hmm, maybe getting masochistic needs fed unexpectedly also serves to feed the brain?!!

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Renaissance, Impressionist Edwin Long
"Babylonian Marriage Market"

A comment and a question...

This is an interesting painting and for those who understand the Renaissance period, it is interesting how this whole scene is portrayed in such a prestine manner. Of course many of the painters of this time period seem to paint their impression which is an interesting aspect to discuss in itself. How truly skewd is this impression of what the real Babylonian Marriage Market looked like? And why try to make an impression which would be other than the reality of it?

My question as it relates to this thread...To Catillina or anyone who may know. Is there a simillar or equivilant type of behavior in D/s today as a practice? Like perhaps training slaves or submissives with the intent to give them away? Honestly don't know or if there is, that's why I am asking.

Yes there is. Shadowsdream did, and still does to my knowledge, train subs/slaves for others or with the intention of finding an appropriate Dom/Domme for them once trained. I imagine with her skills, mind, and dedication, they would be well worth owning or dominating once she had trained them.

Catalina

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

History in Art

Slave
1615-23
Bronze
Piazza della Darsena, Livorno


Tacca was an Italian sculptor who was active in the transition period between the Mannerism and Baroque. He was the most famous pupil of Giovanni da Bologna and was an assistant to him in the execution of the equestrian statues of the last phase of the master's career. He was excellent in making overlife-size bronzes.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Slave (awakening)
1519-36
Marble, height 267 cm
Galleria dell'Accademia, Florence

Probably carved for the 1532 project for Julius II's tomb, the four slaves in the Accademia take up the theme of the Louvre versions, but in larger dimensions. Partly emerging from the rough-hewn marble block, the naked figure is still one with the material from which the artist gradually frees it. Caught at this stage of its creation, the work illustrates the dramatic effort of the sculptor to embody an idea.

​

 

[Netzach]

Yes, that is the title and the topic, but to pretend there is no connection between historical ownership of other human beings and present day consensual D/s and/or M/s is living in denial IMHO. I for one live as a 24/7 slave and our relationship very much hints at historical slavery in that I am owned, I do not have rights, I do not have choices (though initially I had the choice to submit to this), and I cannot leave...do you then see it as your right to invalidate what I do as not existing based on what you believe to be D/s in the style that suits you? Regardless of personal opinions, the opening article dealt with collaring, and spoke of a person who was inspired to wear one based on the experience she had of seeing a play that dealt with slavery...see how these connections are all related? Just because it did not happen as it does in many relationships today, or she didn't fit the image of what some believe a slave or submissive should in present day terms, does not invalidate the reality of it being an historical event which did happen and which reflects influence and linkage between past and present.

If she had never seen the play and identified with the female lead character, would she ever have worn a locked collar which her husband held the key to unlocking? If historical non-consensual slavery and present day consensual D/s slavery are completely unrelated and seperate entities, how is it there are so many areas of commonality such as claimed ownership, collars, slave names, caging, punishment, symbols of ownership including registration and numbering of slaves as existed in past eras etc.? This thread is not about personal preferences, practices or opinions, but more about (hopefully) objectively tracing historical evidence and linkages of the past and present.

Catalina

I'm not horrified or offended, but I find this interesting as a history buff and not especially interesting as an SM person. I've always seen my lineage maybe going back to the 50's at most, but I see what I do as a very contemporary construct, rooted in American culture as I personally participate, a part of my consciousnesss that got raised along with the realization that I was queer and what that meant to me.

I can't really say my life is comparable to that of a flagellant whore in Regency England, or that my ownership of H is comparable to southern slavery.

H is a southern boy/Brooklyn Jew and he'd be pretty aghast if I drew a parallel because that issue of opting in really does make all the difference. catalina, you can't possibly assert that loads of Black slaves in the US were beaten regularly as a reward and left smiling in the agonized afterglow.

Even though I have threatened to sell H's ass on occasion, it just doesn't have that same finality and dynamic of being against his will. Haven't got a good enough bid on it yet either.

As for women thrilled to be trafficked in Europe, what percentage, really, of the women being trafficked do you think are enjoying the ride? It's not impossible. It's definitely offensive to me when someone assumes that NO ONE could want to be a sex worker, but I don't know a lot of people who would opt for being a sex worker under those circumstances. It seems very "niche" to me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

catalina, you can't possibly assert that loads of Black slaves in the US were beaten regularly as a reward and left smiling in the agonized afterglow.

Nah, I haven't, but it seems the topic got taken way away from the original intent which was looking at things within our contemporary D/s culture such as the use of collars, registration numbers for slaves, slave names, caging etc (the list goes on) and tracing if possible where else in the history of (real) slavery or bonded service they may have been used, and where the influences between the various stages and ages can be seen to bring us to present day. There is no way I believe someone in 20th Century culture got the idea of collaring their slave/sub without it being connected no matter how remotely to a past era and practice...in other words it was not an original, never before seen idea of some very clever person, it was influenced by the past.

I'm afraid, Alice then took offence at the discussion of slavery even being introduced, seeing it as offensive and not a subject which should be discussed in any way...then moved it on to posting about present day slave trafficking which though way off the original topic, I did not along with others feel compelled to stand by and continue to give reign to a biased and singular view of anything remotely connected to slavery, the thought process that went with it, nor accept this was the topic we were trying to discuss here and let it become so. She also felt this was the place, if the thread were to remain, to discuss differences in past non-consensual and present consensual slavery which was not what the topic was about, instead we were looking for similarities....this was seen to be further proof of condoning non-consensual slavery. Nor did I (and not alone here) take kindly to be told how I live my life, what it is all about, what F is like etc etc., when it was all so far from the reality it was laughable.

While I do not condone non-consensual slavery, I am also aware it is not limited to present day Europe, nor though bad and often brutal and abhorrant is it always the picture which was painted of unsuspecting innocent taken off the street against her will, never to be seen again by family and friends. Yes, that happens, but as I said, I do not like to ever present a singular vision as the whole and only story when it isn't (especially when accused of condoning it because I raised a topic in relation to BDSM symbols and rituals today and historical events which might be related, on a BDSM forum of all places!!), nor apologise for introducing one topic to then be accused of promoting and 'romanticising' Old South slavery...not to mention it added nothing to the topic discussion of what form of symbolism such as collars etc., were connected to the historical use of such items in present day consensual D/s. Present day non-consensual slavery is not related to consensual D/s and perhaps it is us who should be offended it was introduced as being relevent when trying to discuss contemporary consensual D/s, BDSM, M/s etc.

I actually thought of deleting the whole thread at one point as it seemed it was beyond discussing it in it's original form anymore...but decided it was not in the style of this forum, nor was it an overall view but that of one person. Have to admit to being disappointed in the resulting carry on here given this was inspired by the request for help from a highly respected D/s person who is conducting more research to add to his already extensive research and work within the lifestyle community, and I thought if anywhere would be open to the whole idea and keen to help, it would be this forum which has often been a bit more open minded and sensible than some others. Fortunately some have been interested, and have added great info, not to mention as with yourself, offered an honest and logical POV.

Catalina

 

[PatPowers]

I did

Help me out ... what distinction did you make?

 

[RJMasters]

I know that "branding" has to be or should be explored.

I am pretty sure that branding is connected to the similar practice of branding animals. I wonder what came first the chicken or the egg from a historical persepctive. What are the earlest recording of branding animals for ownership, and what is the earliest recordings of marking slaves of ownership.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any reference to egyptian slaves being marked or branded this way...unless you consider the religious signifigance of circumcision and what it meant. This of course might be consider more under body mutilation rather than branding, but still in the same ball park of a permant marking for identification purposes.

Some other references for consideration:

- I remember somewhere a reference to the Babylonians using a chain and hook which they put through their captives mouths to lead them away into slavery.

- The Impalement- Impalement was the Turks’ preferred method of execution. “A stake was inserted into the victim’s posterior and forced all the way through his body.” Athanasios Diakos, the hero of the Greek revolution against the Turks died this cruel death.
http://www.greecetravel.com/archaeology/mitsopoulou/zulu/index.htm This page has some other interesting historical references that your friend might find interesting. Such as kissing of the hand and other act or behaviors associated with respect.

 

[bridgeburner]

I think there's plenty of historical merit in looking at the evolution of hardware and practices like Flower Auctions etc, but I think it's less useful to talk about historical slavery in general as it relates to BDSM unless you simply want to talk about all power imbalance in the history of human existence as it relates to BDSM.

I have yet to come across a topic that I found inappropriate --- I figure everything is fair game for those able to keep a level head --- but what has Sally Hemmings got to do with BDSM except in the minds of modern people who want to play "let's suppose?" I understand the intent behind bringing up possibly heart-warming slavery stories in a Schindler's List kind of way, but in a case like this it appears a bit self-serving.

I think it just makes me wonder why slavery? I mean, I know that seems like a "Duh" kind of question, but really, most countries don't practice slavery anymore but all of them have jails. Cages, chains, numbered prisoners. Some even have tattoos and canings and whippings. None of these practices have ever been restricted to slaves and I think it would be very difficult to say whether the concept of slavery was born before the concept of "war captive" or "criminal" was.

Perhaps the reason we immediately look to "slavery" from a BDSM board is because it fits the BDSM lexicon --- or it seems to. I'm not sure that's really true, though. What is the difference between a chained slave and a chained prisoner?

It's late and my brain is starting to stutter but I'm still having a hard time seeing that historical slavery has anything much to do with modern day BDSM at all unless you want to talk about who invented the brank.






-B

 

[RJMasters]

I think there's plenty of historical merit in looking at the evolution of hardware and practices like Flower Auctions etc, but I think it's less useful to talk about historical slavery in general as it relates to BDSM unless you simply want to talk about all power imbalance in the history of human existence as it relates to BDSM.

I have yet to come across a topic that I found inappropriate --- I figure everything is fair game for those able to keep a level head --- but what has Sally Hemmings got to do with BDSM except in the minds of modern people who want to play "let's suppose?" I understand the intent behind bringing up possibly heart-warming slavery stories in a Schindler's List kind of way, but in a case like this it appears a bit self-serving.

I think it just makes me wonder why slavery? I mean, I know that seems like a "Duh" kind of question, but really, most countries don't practice slavery anymore but all of them have jails. Cages, chains, numbered prisoners. Some even have tattoos and canings and whippings. None of these practices have ever been restricted to slaves and I think it would be very difficult to say whether the concept of slavery was born before the concept of "war captive" or "criminal" was.

Perhaps the reason we immediately look to "slavery" from a BDSM board is because it fits the BDSM lexicon --- or it seems to. I'm not sure that's really true, though. What is the difference between a chained slave and a chained prisoner?

It's late and my brain is starting to stutter but I'm still having a hard time seeing that historical slavery has anything much to do with modern day BDSM at all unless you want to talk about who invented the brank.


-B

I'm not so sure that was the idea or concept behind this. I think the thread got off track a bit and now it seems people have lost the original intent. I confess I might be a bit lost on it as well.

I found the idea very interesting and a great topic to explore. I am not a great history buff, but I do enjoy thinking about why things came to be as they are.

I think this was suppose to be an exploration of where possible origins of certain modern /D/s and BDSM practices may have stemed from. I don't think the goal was neccessarily to equate the origin with the modern day practice.

Rarely is anything an original idea or concept in modern times. Most things have evolved from something and have been built upon or changed in some ways.

I think this thread was an attempt to look at past origins of practices to see if we could make logical connections to the present day expression.

I really hope this thread gets back on track. I was enjoying it very much.

*****

Adding some more comments

I think if you ponder this in a non specific way but a more topic or generalized way, one would have to look to legal punishments as some source from where certain BDSM practices came from.

An example...the taking of prisoners and putting them in public stocks where their head and hands and sometimes even their feet were put into stocks. They were then defenseless to treatment of the public.

No there is no corellation with consent and so I am not even suggesting that a criminal was consenting...however aspects of that form of punishment is expressed and done in D/s BDSM today. Such as humiliation for one. Imagine the humilation factor of being put into stocks and on display. Vulnerability for another. It goes without saying that being in stock you are vulnerable to just about anything and everything. Then of course youhave to see the simple bondage aspect of it.

So in my way of thinking as you look back in history at many of the legal punishments that were handed out, you can see the concept was born, then modified.