humiliation vs. degradation

[Prof Bill]

If they're different, is there a line of demarcation?

I must admit that humiliation and/or degradation don't do much for me, although I suppose I've caused light embarassment for submissives in the past. I've seen some scenes I considered extreme, was uncomfortable watching and upset that they were happening without my consent, but I'll admit the degraded one (my judgement) enjoyed it all very much and felt great relief afterwards. The person (I'm sorry, I'm not up on all the names yet) who mentioned the cathartic qualities of degradation is probably on to something.

I can accept a difference between the two, and I know folks who need one or the other or both on a fairly regular basis.

(Side bar: I knew a sub who craved humiliation to an extent I thought it was degradation. One of her favorite fantasies had her being led into a small room with windows all around it. Her Master told her to make him proud of her. And then dogs came in. She performed oral sex on them, they penetrated her vaginally and anally, and all the while she was imagining her friends and neighbors watching through the windows. She could not tell me this fantasy without orgasming simply from the telling.)

My question: when does humiliation stop and degradation begin? Is it another case of different strokes for different folks. The sub I mentioned above considered this dog/neighbor fantasy erotically stimulating while I thought it quite degrading.

Comments thus far have been so good, I'd like to have folks extend their comments to add a response to this. And thanks in advance.

Bill

 

[ethereal~minx]

..."de·grade
v. de·grad·ed, de·grad·ing, de·grades
v. tr.
To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote.
To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace
To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
To reduce in worth or value


hu·mil·i·ate
tr.v. hu·mil·i·at·ed, hu·mil·i·at·ing, hu·mil·i·ates
To lower the pride, dignity, or self-respect of. "

...

this is a tough one~~
but i think i'd rather experience degradation
than humiliation
i have been lowered in moral character by mere words~ debased and although it was searingly embarrassing to be read so easily, it was also liberating to be taken down so far ... dang, must come back later...

i have to say though, at this time i felt complete trust in the relationship/person i was with... and with that said, i'm sure humiliation i could probably also handle~~~ because i would know the intent or motivation for being in the experience would be [thinking thinking thinking] not to harm me in any way...i would not fear.

now, out of the confines of a solid relationship~ to consider humiliation/degradation.... that's a different situation!!!
and some (i'm thinking) actually like it or may believe this submissive does...

 

[cellis]

Again a really great thread...

Early on Himself decided for us both that He had no need to degrade or humiliate me... I think that has changed to some extent... There is the public sex thing we do from time to time... or the exposing myself to complete strangers that He has me do... some might find that humiliating... I don't...

As for degrading or debasing me... He has not done that... I doubt that He ever will... It is just not our thing...


But I have to admit there is something highly erotic about exposing my breasts to workmen or my pussy to truck drivers.... on occassion....

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: humiliation vs. degradation

this is a tough one~~
but i think i'd rather experience degradation
than humiliation
i have been lowered in moral character by mere words~ debased and although it was searingly embarrassing to be read so easily, it was also liberating to be taken down so far ... dang, must come back later...

This is true for me also. I also see it as an extension of my status as slave, to seemingly be lowered to a position below the average person. The beauty of it also is knowing that no matter what Master may have me do or undergo, his love for me deepens, and while my value in the eyes of others may plummet, with him it increases tenfold with each act and service I successfully complete to his instruction. That to me is worth far more than whether anyone else approves of me. Fortunately I have learnt before that not only can you not please everyone all the time, but in the end you have to be strong enough to do what is right for you irrespective of how it might be viewed. The only thing that could change that perception would be if I actually became someone he despised or felt was worthless. I have to trust him in knowing how to not let that happen.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Part of the Mistress-responsibility angle, in this activity, because what catalina says brings it up, is prudence when deciding which "others" the bottom/slave can lose face with without major repurcussions, or to what degree you can do your thing without violating the fact that some people don't want to be participants in your scene. You are trying to humiliate the bottom, not the girl at the counter or the waitress who has to serve your table.

a woman flashing a trucker is *more likely to be ok* than someone flashing a teacher with her classroom on a field trip, to make the latter point concrete, and less likely to do someone lasting harm than flashing a bunch of co-workers, to make the first point concrete.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Part of the Mistress-responsibility angle, in this activity, because what catalina says brings it up, is prudence when deciding which "others" the bottom/slave can lose face with without major repurcussions, or to what degree you can do your thing without violating the fact that some people don't want to be participants in your scene. You are trying to humiliate the bottom, not the girl at the counter or the waitress who has to serve your table.

a woman flashing a trucker is *more likely to be ok* than someone flashing a teacher with her classroom on a field trip, to make the latter point concrete, and less likely to do someone lasting harm than flashing a bunch of co-workers, to make the first point concrete.

This is true which is why I am fortunate to have chosen someone who not only knows me well and is extremely careful about permanent damage in any form, but in this space in time shows an inordinate amount of concern over respecting the rights of others. Tools he may use in the human form are always done so with their consent, or in a situation where the risk is minimal in offending another.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

Redelicious said,

"is it humiliation is you like it."

My opinion: the short answer is no; if the act in itself is neutral or liked, there cannot be humiliation. Notice I'm not talking about the 'dom/me's' feelings of satisfaction etc., their liking it.

Consider, going out on a stage with 200 watching, you take off your clothes. People toss some money onto the stage.

Well if you're a pro, no prob. No humiliation, imo is possible.

"Pleasing the partner" is a different issue. A lot of us would be embarrassed by that act as such. But I might persuade myself the 'dom/me' will be pleased, or that I'll get $1000 for my starving kid. There IS embarrassment/humiliation, but I undergo it because of the counterbalancing consideration.

That's my idiosyncratic 'take' on things.

J.

Redelicious original posting:

As long as I'm here, I may as well ask a question. Humiliation is not something I have ever directly played with, though I suppose I have been in situations that would have been humiliating to another. My thinking is that I got gratification out of being in those places knowing that I was pleasing my partner.

So, is it humiliation if you like it?

 

[redelicious]

Redelicious said,

"is it humiliation is you like it."

My opinion: the short answer is no; if the act in itself is neutral or liked, there cannot be humiliation. Notice I'm not talking about the 'dom/me's' feelings of satisfaction etc., their liking it.

Consider, going out on a stage with 200 watching, you take off your clothes. People toss some money onto the stage.

Well if you're a pro, no prob. No humiliation, imo is possible.

"Pleasing the partner" is a different issue. A lot of us would be embarrassed by that act as such. But I might persuade myself the 'dom/me' will be pleased, or that I'll get $1000 for my starving kid. There IS embarrassment/humiliation, but I undergo it because of the counterbalancing consideration.

That's my idiosyncratic 'take' on things.

J.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[Pure]

So, Red, what is your opinion and/or experience in the matter?

 

[slvjenn]

Redelicious said,

"is it humiliation is you like it."

My opinion: the short answer is no; if the act in itself is neutral or liked, there cannot be humiliation. Notice I'm not talking about the 'dom/me's' feelings of satisfaction etc., their liking it.

Consider, going out on a stage with 200 watching, you take off your clothes. People toss some money onto the stage.

Well if you're a pro, no prob. No humiliation, imo is possible.

"Pleasing the partner" is a different issue. A lot of us would be embarrassed by that act as such. But I might persuade myself the 'dom/me' will be pleased, or that I'll get $1000 for my starving kid. There IS embarrassment/humiliation, but I undergo it because of the counterbalancing consideration.

That's my idiosyncratic 'take' on things.

J.

Redelicious original posting:

As long as I'm here, I may as well ask a question. Humiliation is not something I have ever directly played with, though I suppose I have been in situations that would have been humiliating to another. My thinking is that I got gratification out of being in those places knowing that I was pleasing my partner.

So, is it humiliation if you like it?

i'm not sure i understand why you say/think something can't be humiliating if you like it.

You'd never say that a crop didn't hurt the bottom because s/he likes it. Isn't it similar?

 

[Pure]

Good point, jenn,

//i'm not sure i understand why you say/think something can't be humiliating if you like it.

You'd never say that a crop didn't hurt the bottom because s/he likes it. Isn't it similar?//

That's an old puzzle. My short answer is that the 'whackee' is having a bit of pain, and a large turn on, if it's voluntary, so on balance she likes it. My assumption is that most of the time--aside from trauma reenactments-- things we keep going to, keep doing, we like on balance.

Kinky folk have 'crossed wires' as the saying goes, and as you know. Hence a slap (unpleasant), in a certain context is a great turn on; and I'd say "Yes that person _likes_ slaps in that context."

To fix up my example, if I'm to go on stage nude and in doing so find myself greatly turned on, then I'm embarrassed AND aroused; I like it on balance. That might make it 'erotic humiliation' esp. if I'm 'forced' (consensually) to do so.

If Aunt Sally were in that situation it would be purely embarrassing for her, hence simple humiliation.

What is your take on it, jenn?

J.

 

[hurtme]

I still have issues with the humiliation aspect, simply because I have deep seeded issues with it. Its hard for me to see it as something that is not malicious, that is not being done out of hatred and spite. And as I have said before, I have a very strong sense of myself and there are certian thigns i don't entertian...for example, Some subs don't have an issue when their doms slap them, neither do I, but i have seen doms hit their subbies in the face before, not hard, exactly, and they didn't seem to mind, but it is somethign I could never concieve of...that is just beyond erotic humilation to me...and I don't mind being taken down a peg or two (what sub does) but the second I get called a bitch, or a whore, etc...I'm done...I don't really know why I have such a problem with it, since it is reall ynot that big of a deal, and for lots of people they love it, its a big turn on, but I think any act in which a women is objectified really bothers me...

 

[catalina_francisco]

I still have issues with the humiliation aspect, simply because I have deep seeded issues with it. Its hard for me to see it as something that is not malicious, that is not being done out of hatred and spite. And as I have said before, I have a very strong sense of myself and there are certian thigns i don't entertian...for example, Some subs don't have an issue when their doms slap them, neither do I, but i have seen doms hit their subbies in the face before, not hard, exactly, and they didn't seem to mind, but it is somethign I could never concieve of...that is just beyond erotic humilation to me...and I don't mind being taken down a peg or two (what sub does) but the second I get called a bitch, or a whore, etc...I'm done...I don't really know why I have such a problem with it, since it is reall ynot that big of a deal, and for lots of people they love it, its a big turn on, but I think any act in which a women is objectified really bothers me...

Has the opposite effect on me, but for the same reasons you state, that being strength. From my deep involvement in feminism, and my own background and history of survival, my strength gives me the freedom to enjoy the humiliation and objectification without any negative feelings or fears. I know if need be, no-one can destroy me unless I let them...in other words if they cross the lines of SSC and more especially do not have that right, I am not about to feel threatened by that, just pity them for their own inability to control their behaviour.

Catalina

 

[slvjenn]

well i can't really find any sites to quote, but the physical response of being embarrassed are extremely similar to that of being arroused.

so your example of "wires being crossed" fits quite nicely. Perhaps those that enjoy humiliation do so because of that similarity between the two sensations.

To give an example.

Women wear blush to simulate the color of thier face when they are aroused.

When embarrassed your face reddens (granted with me, and i'm sure most people) it gets much brighter when embarrassed than when aroused, but the blood is still rushing to all of the same areas.

 

[ownedsubgal]

is it humiliation if you like it? imo, no. the very definition of the world deals with feelings that are the very opposite of pleasure/arousal/enjoyment/etc. i need humiliation. i crave humiliation. i appreciate humiliation. but i could never enjoy it. if i enjoyed it, it would not be humiliation. humiliation goes far beyond being a bit embarassed. and degradation delves into yet another realm which goes far beyond that.

if my Master were to subject me to humiliation or degradation on a frequent basis, then it would probably completely kill me emotionally...my spirit would be irrevocably shattered. as i mentioned before, i've never been the type to think highly of myself or have much if any confidence...so after being humiliated, and particularly after being degraded, i often sink into a bit of a depression and begin to think of myself as worthless. it passes, when a little time has gone by and i receive much lecturing and loving from my Master, but too much of it and those feelings would never pass. so it's not something we play with...i always hate to refer to things in this lifestyle as "play", because for Daddy and i at least, most of these things are far from play. humiliation is a tool he uses when he feels it's necessary to remind me of my proper place. degradation is a tool he uses much more rarely to remind me that there is no limit to just how low he can reduce me. if he finds pleasure in subjecting me to such things, why well all the better...if i were to find pleasure in any of the activities he intended for such purposes, the entire point will have been lost.

 

[Pure]

jenn said,



well i can't really find any sites to quote, but the physical response of being embarrassed are extremely similar to that of being arroused.

so your example of "wires being crossed" fits quite nicely. Perhaps those that enjoy humiliation do so because of that similarity between the two sensations.

To give an example.

Women wear blush to simulate the color of thier face when they are aroused.

When embarrassed your face reddens (granted with me, and i'm sure most people) it gets much brighter when embarrassed than when aroused, but the blood is still rushing to all of the same areas.

Good point jenn. Blushing also is similar to the reddening that a whip causes on the butt. Again there's overlap (with sexual feelings) for those to whom whipping is a turn on.

Further, there is in excitement or many emotions, an element of 'autonomic arousal', heart beats faster etc. For many of the kink-ishly wired these excitements can be come sexual, though I'm sure it's also happened to others, i.e., like getting an erection from a roller coaster ride.

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am with the 'humiliation is still humiliation if you like it' camp. While for some it may not prove true, for myself it is two seperate issues that are so closely interwoven they almost become one. It is the true feeling of humiliation and degradation that makes my heart skip a beat in the most pleasant way, while also being anything but pleasant. You see, my kink seems to be to enjoy the not so pleasant sensations just because they take me to a place that is inescapable. That does not diminish the initial feelings of humiliation or degradation for what they are, just heightens and intensifies the sensations. First you feel the humiliation in the situation, then the thrill, which then leads to deeper humiliation that your owner knows you so well he knows you enjoy that pleasure/pain factor of it all, and that you feel pleasure from it, and so it goes in a never ending spiral of wrestling with the emotions and the conscience as to why I feel the way I do, and why both the pleasure and the pain lingers long after, in some cases for years.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

Catalina said,

//I am with the 'humiliation is still humiliation if you like it' camp. While for some it may not prove true, for myself it is two seperate issues that are so closely interwoven they almost become one. It is the true feeling of humiliation and degradation that makes my heart skip a beat in the most pleasant way, while also being anything but pleasant. //

I don't have a problem with the 'mixture' argument. There are lots of examples. Consider getting an injection of morphine: there is a prick, but it's counterbalanced by lotsa pleasure.

To cut through the semantics of 'does she like it'. Consider.

Were you Catalina's dom, and you wished to 'punish' her, i.e., make her face an unpleasant consequence. Would you cut or whip her? No (I think). Would you degrade her? No (I think).

Hence these are 'on balance' pleasures. Indeed they could be used as rewards, could they not "You been so good to me to day, I'm going to degrade you."?

 

[Pure]

. (sorry, re-post)

 

[redelicious]

So, Red, what is your opinion and/or experience in the matter?

Again, I don't have much experience, and therefore not quite a formed opinion.

Earlier you said:

"Pleasing the partner" is a different issue. A lot of us would be embarrassed by that act as such. But I might persuade myself the 'dom/me' will be pleased, or that I'll get $1000 for my starving kid. There IS embarrassment/humiliation, but I undergo it because of the counterbalancing consideration.

I am not sure that anything *humiliating* has been presented to me where I have had to tell myself "this will please him" to get through it. There have been times when I have secretly thought "mmm, this pleases him." The things that have been expected of me in the past really have not tested me as far as humiliation goes (pain is quite a different story). It wasn't the focus of any relationship I've ever had.

 

[redelicious]

<snip>

humiliation is a tool he uses when he feels it's necessary to remind me of my proper place. degradation is a tool he uses much more rarely to remind me that there is no limit to just how low he can reduce me. if he finds pleasure in subjecting me to such things, why well all the better...if i were to find pleasure in any of the activities he intended for such purposes, the entire point will have been lost.

Now, this makes sense to me.

 

[Prof Bill]

Humiliation/Degradation: Examples?

I'm finding this exchange fascinating and informative--certainly the best I've read in the past ten years of intermittent discussions about the "whys and wherefores" of humiliation.

I'd hazzard a guess that all of us can agree that many of the distinctions that have been raised are highly individual. What humiliates me might not mean a thing to someone else--and one person's degradation might be another's erotic excitement, and so on.

Would it be helpful to provide an example or two of what is or is not humiliating?

I'll start, and admittedly this will be imperfect because I'm a Dom.

I respect and value human individuality and human worth and so have never been drawn to humiliation. At least that's what I told myself. I've always been blessed with very strong, very competent, very accomplished submissives--ladies quite capable of taking care of themselves in virtually any situation. Frankly, their submission to me has excited me far more than the submission of someone who is less forceful in her personal life.

I had a submissive for two years who fit the category I describe. I respected her and all she had accomplished in her life and enjoyed working on the few areas in which she could make improvements. She was something of a pain slut, an exhibitionist, and a highly sexual sensualist--she was my cup of tea in many, many ways. I would never have dreamed of doing anything that would have humiliated her, or degraded her.

And then she told me she wanted some of that. She told me she needed some of that.

We began with my walking her on a leash at parties. Grew to her wearing her dog collar (our play collar, which was originally our collar of discovery) in all public places. Progressed to her performing menial tasks in front of others. She basked in the pleasure these gave her. And, surprisingly to me, I basked in her doing them.

But, of course, this wasn't enough. So we progressed to other forms of humiliation. I used her body to demonstrate to one of her vanilla friends various techniques of vaginal torture. She was self-conscious about her body and I forced her to disrobe in public for parties. She was sometimes embarassed about her enthusiasm for various BDSM activities and I hooded her and then invited several people (all friends) to play with her body so they could see how much she enjoyed it. We did golden showers. She slept while handcuffed. She never sat on floors or at a table.

Now I know that a lot of these things, perhaps all of them, would be very small potatoes to many people. But for us they were exercises in humiliation.

Might others think these are simply aspects of ownership? Probably. Might still others think they were degrading? Perhaps.

I think some examples of what we mean by humiliating and degrading might be helpful.

Prof Bill

 

[rosco rathbone]

Humiliation exercises are all about reducing pride and subborness. They are NOT about breaking a person's will or spirit, or making them feel worthless...it is about breaking down barriers that hinder growth as a human being.

Otherwise, it is degradation, and that is not something I engage in.

I gotta remember this one. Yeahhhhhh it's all about your inner growth, bitch.

 

[Pure]

OK, you saw it first here, nobody steal it. My book is going to be

Degradation for Personal Growth in 10 Steps, or "Is that the sole of your shoe on my face?"

J.

 

[Pure]

"But, of course, this wasn't enough."

For her or you, Bill?

J.