humiliation vs. degradation

[Johnny Mayberry]

I gotta remember this one. Yeahhhhhh it's all about your inner growth, bitch.

Yeah, save it for when you actually have a bitch of your own, outside of your twisted imagination.

 

[Netzach]

Title of my chapter: "The Riches of Embarrassment."

 

[snoozebutton]

I guess I never thought of certain activities as humiliating or degrading. I do everything with the purpose of making us closer. Is it embarring or degrading to sit in a chair and masterbate while I watch? I'm sure to some it might be but it's done so I can look into her eyes and be there for all the nights we will be apart. Being a Dominate we can't always explain the reasons we want certain tasks done. We are geared to take control and that means we have to constantly find new ways to excite and further the pleasure our submissives experience. Most can't openly display their participation in the lifestyle. So Dominants come up with tasks or chores outside the home that might seem degrading to some but light the fires deep inside for others. It's a way for some to feel like they are giving back for the pleasure their Master gives them. The scales of give and take are very important to keep balanced, both feeling they contribute. As a Dom who only thinks of himself doesn't have a sub just a shell of a woman he has sucked dry. If it's a true relationship love should be involved in every decision. Just my randoms thoughts.

 

[Quint]

OK, you saw it first here, nobody steal it. My book is going to be

Degradation for Personal Growth in 10 Steps, or "Is that the sole of your shoe on my face?"

J.

Ha!

 

[ownedsubgal]

I guess I never thought of certain activities as humiliating or degrading. I do everything with the purpose of making us closer. Is it embarring or degrading to sit in a chair and masterbate while I watch? I'm sure to some it might be but it's done so I can look into her eyes and be there for all the nights we will be apart. Being a Dominate we can't always explain the reasons we want certain tasks done. We are geared to take control and that means we have to constantly find new ways to excite and further the pleasure our submissives experience. Most can't openly display their participation in the lifestyle. So Dominants come up with tasks or chores outside the home that might seem degrading to some but light the fires deep inside for others. It's a way for some to feel like they are giving back for the pleasure their Master gives them. The scales of give and take are very important to keep balanced, both feeling they contribute. As a Dom who only thinks of himself doesn't have a sub just a shell of a woman he has sucked dry. If it's a true relationship love should be involved in every decision. Just my randoms thoughts.

humiliation and even intense degradation can definitely be a part of a healthy, loving union. i would go so far as to say that there MUST be a strong and overwhelming mutual love if the submissive is not to be destroyed completely by such things. it's so extremely relieving and comforting after being humiliated or degraded to be wrapped up in my Master's arms and hear his loving words and know that regardless of what i am or what he has reduced me to, i am precisely as he wants me and he loves it (me) all.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

humiliation and even intense degradation can definitely be a part of a healthy, loving union. i would go so far as to say that there MUST be a strong and overwhelming mutual love if the submissive is not to be destroyed completely by such things. it's so extremely relieving and comforting after being humiliated or degraded to be wrapped up in my Master's arms and hear his loving words and know that regardless of what i am or what he has reduced me to, i am precisely as he wants me and he loves it (me) all.

This is why I would never use the word 'degradation'(semantic quibble). In my eyes, teh fact of their being so much love and concern doersn't allow even the deepest humiliation to cross over the line into degradation.

 

[Netzach]

For certain submissives that kind of aftercare might feel very smothering. It's all an issue of personality and individuals. I don't think that the aftercare is what makes it OK or the only thing that makes it OK.

I think that respect is actually a big part of it. Respect for the person, respect for a need, in my case and my lingua franca respect for the kink. If someone says "humiliate me" how to do that without second guessing, or letting my personal guilt or fear of being "a bad person" get in the way of that, how to get past my own shit and face the fact that I just spit in someone's mouth, and worse, I loved it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is why I would never use the word 'degradation'(semantic quibble). In my eyes, teh fact of their being so much love and concern doersn't allow even the deepest humiliation to cross over the line into degradation.

For some perhaps, but I know it is possible to have the love, and concern to a certain level..... usually only personal and private.... while totally revelling in the power to degrade in the eyes of the world and maintaining that image. Has a sort of eroticism which cannot be experienced without the love, but does not detract from the degradation all the same.

Catalina

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

For some perhaps, but I know it is possible to have the love, and concern to a certain level..... usually only personal and private.... while totally revelling in the power to degrade in the eyes of the world and maintaining that image. Has a sort of eroticism which cannot be experienced without the love, but does not detract from the degradation all the same.

Catalina

Like I said, I think it is semantics...what you call 'healthy degradation' I call 'strong humiliation'.

 

[ownedsubgal]

This is why I would never use the word 'degradation'(semantic quibble). In my eyes, teh fact of their being so much love and concern doersn't allow even the deepest humiliation to cross over the line into degradation.

oh it is definitely possible...as catalina mentioned, one's Master can degrade them thoroughly in the eyes of others, and in cases like my Master and i, where he degrades me not simply before the world but to him as well....hmm how can i explain this? yes, he loves me...thoroughly and completely loves me. so you may think how could he TRULY degrade me (and it not be some sort of "play" or game). well, i'll go back to the pond scum analogy. my Master can reduce me to the pond scum of pond scum...but, he's the unusual sort of man who loves and adores the pond scum of pond scum, and finds it beautiful and precious. so yes, i can feel and know that i am this lowly creature, but know that in my Master's eyes this is a wonderful thing. this love doesn't make the degradation any less intense or real.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Yeah, save it for when you actually have a bitch of your own, outside of your twisted imagination.

ouch!

 

[catalina_francisco]

oh it is definitely possible...as catalina mentioned, one's Master can degrade them thoroughly in the eyes of others, and in cases like my Master and i, where he degrades me not simply before the world but to him as well....hmm how can i explain this? yes, he loves me...thoroughly and completely loves me. so you may think how could he TRULY degrade me (and it not be some sort of "play" or game). well, i'll go back to the pond scum analogy. my Master can reduce me to the pond scum of pond scum...but, he's the unusual sort of man who loves and adores the pond scum of pond scum, and finds it beautiful and precious. so yes, i can feel and know that i am this lowly creature, but know that in my Master's eyes this is a wonderful thing. this love doesn't make the degradation any less intense or real.

Do you think part of their ability to still love lies in giving the submissive an added vulnerability outside their own control, and assuming total control in the extreme, while moving beyond the boundaries of what many would consider sane and loving?

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

Do you think part of their ability to still love lies in giving the submissive an added vulnerability outside their own control, and assuming total control in the extreme, while moving beyond the boundaries of what many would consider sane and loving?

Catalina

that may be true for some. i'll have to ask Daddy if this is part of what he feels as well. i know that it must be an added power rush for him to know he can very literally make me, and break me, and then build me up again if he wishes it. but for me i would not say that being degraded adds any vulnerability that was not there all along...as i said, i've had low self-esteem for most of my life. and i've always felt weak and powerless, which is what i have been if you want to look at the cold hard truth of it. so in our union degradation is especially risky because it seems to confirm all the negative things i've always felt about myself. however my Master and his undying love work constantly to show me that what i am, as weak, or low, or powerless, or doormat-ish it may be, is beautiful. of course, i may not agree with him, and still suffer a little (or a lot), because of my low place in the world...which i think makes it firmly degradation in the real and not some kind of play.

 

[catalina_francisco]

that may be true for some. i'll have to ask Daddy if this is part of what he feels as well. i know that it must be an added power rush for him to know he can very literally make me, and break me, and then build me up again if he wishes it. but for me i would not say that being degraded adds any vulnerability that was not there all along...as i said, i've had low self-esteem for most of my life. and i've always felt weak and powerless, which is what i have been if you want to look at the cold hard truth of it. so in our union degradation is especially risky because it seems to confirm all the negative things i've always felt about myself. however my Master and his undying love work constantly to show me that what i am, as weak, or low, or powerless, or doormat-ish it may be, is beautiful. of course, i may not agree with him, and still suffer a little (or a lot), because of my low place in the world...which i think makes it firmly degradation in the real and not some kind of play.

Mmmm..don't think you can ever play at degradation, and still call it that. I think what my thought on vulnerability was, was not so much what you or your Master may share as a concept of your position before, but more so the perception of those on the outside who know of your new state though may or may not know you as a person well enough to be privvy to your previous sense of self. In their eyes you have become vulnerable whether you acknowledge it or not, just by your newly defined status. I think that has to be a big power rush for many Masters.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

Mmmm..don't think you can ever play at degradation, and still call it that. I think what my thought on vulnerability was, was not so much what you or your Master may share as a concept of your position before, but more so the perception of those on the outside who know of your new state though may or may not know you as a person well enough to be privvy to your previous sense of self. In their eyes you have become vulnerable whether you acknowledge it or not, just by your newly defined status. I think that has to be a big power rush for many Masters.

Catalina

i'm not sure that particular aspect relates to my Master...as first, he's never been one to care much what others think, whether about himself or his property, and more, he has never tried to portray me as this once normally functioning, "high" (in status and esteem) person who he has made into something less or something weaker....this is the way i was to begin with, and he never tries to pretend anything different. for him the power rush in degrading me has nothing whatever to do with the outside world, and everything to do with what's between us. even if i am to be publicly degraded (after all, not all degradation between Master and slave is public), it's not about what others may think i have been reduced to.

 

[Netzach]

I'd love an example of "playing at degredation"

I think you either are or you ain't. There'd have to be a lot of smoke and mirrors to role play your way through that.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'd love an example of "playing at degredation"

I think you either are or you ain't. There'd have to be a lot of smoke and mirrors to role play your way through that.

I think many people can 'play'at most things if they really want to believe it possible. Is not my way, but as many discussions on Lit have shown, there are a lot of people who feel it is no less valid to role play for a night, than to live it 24/7. Is a matter of perceptions and lived realities for each individual. For me it would never be degradation, to be acted out for a set time, but I know some others would see it as legitimate role play.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

i'm not sure that particular aspect relates to my Master...as first, he's never been one to care much what others think, whether about himself or his property, and more, he has never tried to portray me as this once normally functioning, "high" (in status and esteem) person who he has made into something less or something weaker....this is the way i was to begin with, and he never tries to pretend anything different. for him the power rush in degrading me has nothing whatever to do with the outside world, and everything to do with what's between us. even if i am to be publicly degraded (after all, not all degradation between Master and slave is public), it's not about what others may think i have been reduced to.

For us, there is no public scening as we are just not into socialising that much....lazy maybe....but the knowledge of accepted realities and lived realities do contrast at times. Personally, I cannot imagine anything he could do to me one on one in private that would degrade me, but there are other things he may do which may be known and/or experienced by others which do. I think for us too, we like the contrasting dichotomy and the never ending search for possibilities to build on.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I'm still hung up here on duration.

The degredation, even in a 24/7 relationship is something that happens for a set duration, usually. Even osg talks about what happens when the heat of the moment is "over" and her Daddy builds her up again, because that is his choice of what to do with her. Degredation has a parameter, or I imagine most slaves/subs would not be able to cope with a situation of permanent ongoing degredation, it's a selected moment set out to prove a specific point.

Now, I guess it *could* be a farce in a relationship within different parameters, but I've seen a lot of play humiliation among committed couples too "tee hee, I'm such a slut" kind of stuff...bores me personally.

But degredation can serve some of the same functions between people who don't see one another constantly, and may not see one another outside of "degredation time."

I've had a slave that served as my stress relief, and I suppose the relationship functioned as balance for him in his life outside. Pure degredation, deep humiliation was the goal, the object, and my distinct pleasure in every encounter.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm still hung up here on duration.

The degredation, even in a 24/7 relationship is something that happens for a set duration, usually. Even osg talks about what happens when the heat of the moment is "over" and her Daddy builds her up again, because that is his choice of what to do with her. Degredation has a parameter, or I imagine most slaves/subs would not be able to cope with a situation of permanent ongoing degredation, it's a selected moment set out to prove a specific point.

While this may be the case for some people, it is not for others. I personally see degradation as a lasting state, not something which passes, other wise it comes under play to me. For it to be redeemable and switched off when the time specified has passed, it would come under humiliation at the most. Degradation IMO is when a person is taken to a state they can not come back from, in other words the clock is not able to be turned back and the episode or acts reversed and forgotten about by the people involved or others who know of it.

Sort of like murder...you kill someone, you cannot then wake up tomorrow and say it was a buzz but today is a new start and all will be forgotten and the victim will spring back to live the rest of their lives. That is my definition of degradation in the sense I use it, a non redeemable state of being that remains permanent 24/7, 365 days of the year, for ever more......that does not mean you are continually repeating whatever happened, though you may be, it just means it is irreversible and you live with the fallout and the consequences.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

While this may be the case for some people, it is not for others. I personally see degradation as a lasting state, not something which passes, other wise it comes under play to me. For it to be redeemable and switched off when the time specified has passed, it would come under humiliation at the most. Degradation IMO is when a person is taken to a state they can not come back from, in other words the clock is not able to be turned back and the episode or acts reversed and forgotten about by the people involved or others who know of it.

Sort of like murder...you kill someone, you cannot then wake up tomorrow and say it was a buzz but today is a new start and all will be forgotten and the victim will spring back to live the rest of their lives. That is my definition of degradation in the sense I use it, a non redeemable state of being that remains permanent 24/7, 365 days of the year, for ever more......that does not mean you are continually repeating whatever happened, though you may be, it just means it is irreversible and you live with the fallout and the consequences.

Catalina

you expressed that so much better than i ever could....for us also whatever state he reduces me to during degradation, is permanent. there is no turning back. yes, i may get held and kisses and tender affection afterwards, but none of it is a reversal of what took place just minutes ago. it is simply a way of reminding me that he loves in spite of, and even in part because of, me being that lowly creature that i am.

now as for public vs. private degradation....it's very possible for my Master to degrade me when it's just the two of us, alone, and no one else may never ever know (btw, we don't do public "scening" either, scening isn't something we do in public or in private). He knows all my especially vulnerable areas, and he will push those buttons. for me, the most difficult sort of degradation for me to bear is verbal...not name calling or anything of that nature, but more a lecturing/speech from my Master, where he tells me of certain realities that are very difficult and painful for me to accept. like, saying something positive about the childhood abuse i experienced, while subjecting me to the very acts he knows my abuser subjected me to. there's nothing that anyone else could subject me to or that he could subject me to before others that would be more effective, as far as getting that message across that i am indeed and always will be, "a piece of sh*t slut*.

 

[Netzach]

......that does not mean you are continually repeating whatever happened, though you may be, it just means it is irreversible and you live with the fallout and the consequences.

Catalina [/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I was saying, not that there's some kind of erasure or removal of stakes or semantic meaning of the act committed. The bottom whom I degrade knows that I am always, to some extent, going to view him as precisely what I said he was, there isn't a turning back. That said, I don't personally view degredation/humiliation as something suitable or extant only within the confines of 24/7 relationships.

 

[ownedsubgal]

......that does not mean you are continually repeating whatever happened, though you may be, it just means it is irreversible and you live with the fallout and the consequences.

Catalina

This is exactly what I was saying, not that there's some kind of erasure or removal of stakes or semantic meaning of the act committed. The bottom whom I degrade knows that I am always, to some extent, going to view him as precisely what I said he was, there isn't a turning back. That said, I don't personally view degredation/humiliation as something suitable or extant only within the confines of 24/7 relationships. [/QUOTE]


now i do agree with this...my Master has me humiliated and degraded by others, and it is definitely a different sort of dynamic to being degraded by someone who sees you as nothing more than what they have reduced you to, as opposed to being degraded by someone who sees you as this lowly creature, "plus". however if i didn't have his love to hold and carry me, i know i would not long be able to survive such treatment from others. that is why i personally feel that intense, true humiliation and degradation is best either within or as a part of a loving relationship, though not necessarily between those who love one another. but many are stronger than myself so...

 

[AngelicAssassin]

A personal favorite from OSG

and enjoyed the opinions of those expressed within the thread as well.

 

[Learn Humility]

Nice thread. I'm glad it was revived.

As one for whom humiliation of the submissive is a necessity, I will say this:

I have always felt that control of the mind is, for me, the more powerful stimulant. It's really about control.

I am no sadist, and derive no pleasure from inflicting unwanted pain. But if I was, I would not reasonably expect a submissive to absorb pain which went beyond her limits. It's a physical thing....Limits in pain, I have found, are fairly hard limits.

But the submission of oneself to humiliating situations is purely mental, and I think the limits of the submissive in this area are not as hard.

As I find it harder to control the mind than the body, or at least more challenging and rearding, I get much more satisfaction out of placing a submissive in a humiliating situation then I would, say, out of flogging her.

It may appear as if there's a contradiction here. Mind control is harder than physical control, but physical limits are harder than mental limits, but I don't think so.

It's simply easier to get someone to do physical things, but harder to make them go further. It's harder to get someone to do mental things, but once you get them started, it's easier to get them to go further.

I'm not sure this makes any sense......

As far as the question of humiliation vs. degradation goes:

I would consider the difference to be mainly one of semantics, although if I had to make call, I'd say that degradation is probably a step up from simple humiliation, just as simple embarrassment would be a step down.

An example:

Emabrrassing to the submissive: Watching her pee.
Humiliation: Peeing on her.
Degradation: Peeing on her in front of others.

Don't know if any of that made sense, either.....

Finally, "Is it humiliation if the subject person does not find it humiliating?"

Yes and no.

People build up a tolerance. My submissive found it quite humiliating to wear her collar and leash in public for the first time. Now she thinks nothing of it.

But I am not completely in her mind. I still find it humiliating.