I bit it off, now I have to chew it.

[Netzach]

i agree with you in principle netz, but i do think that financial matters should have been discussed and sorted out in the initial tpe discussions as it's very important in any relationship.

it is their business and their decision of course, but she was asking for our opinions and i simply gave mine.

we don't do the tpe thing, but our finances are combined. that works for us because we do have the same attitudes and responsibility about money.

i've learned over the years that attitudes about money matters are formed very early in life and really don't change. yes, he's young and may learn from this lesson, but what he may actually learn is that she will be there to bail him out whenever he needs it.

Yeah there's a lot more going into what we think about money than just money - the only things that have ever changed any of my impulses around it are years and therapy. No wonder it's such a battle for a lot of people.

But it does seem to me like finances are assumed to be part and parcel of the negotiated rel. I mean I think they are? I don't get the sense that this was a surprise out of nowhere rather than an abstract theory made concrete. I could also be wrong though.

 

[callinectes]

You know, of all of the discussions I have read about slave vs. sub..this one clenches it for me. I'm no slave.

I don't have any advice Velvet, but I admire your devotion to your agreement.

 

[Erryn_Silver]

I wouldn't be able to do what you did, which is why I only dabble in the scene instead of live it.

I still think that it was wrong of him to take your money that you worked for though. The fines on tax returns are usually set up in pay installments and wouldn't have taken long to pay off. He didn't need to take your money to pay it.

If he knew that you were going to NY, he should have atleast given you some sort of compensation.

Let's just face it, if you or he ever break off the arrangement, and he decides to get even, he could quite easily cancel all of your cards and accounts and take your money. It's rather foolish to put yourself in a situation that that could even have the chance of happening...

 

[BiBunny]

i agree with you in principle netz, but i do think that financial matters should have been discussed and sorted out in the initial tpe discussions as it's very important in any relationship.

it is their business and their decision of course, but she was asking for our opinions and i simply gave mine.

we don't do the tpe thing, but our finances are combined. that works for us because we do have the same attitudes and responsibility about money.

i've learned over the years that attitudes about money matters are formed very early in life and really don't change. yes, he's young and may learn from this lesson, but what he may actually learn is that she will be there to bail him out whenever he needs it.

*Applauds*

All the more reason I will never be a slave--or a slave-owner, for that matter. I cannot imagine being so irresponsible about something so important when I am supposed to be the responsible party in the relationship. And then expecting someone else to clean up my mess for me?

Hell, no. Those are the actions of a child, not the actions of a Master, IMO. She's well within her rights to kick him in the balls.

 

[SinfulSailor]

yes, she is worth a lot, but i don't agree that she's being sensible in this case.

slave, sub, wife, partner it doesn't matter. he should have discussed it and asked first, particularly as they don't yet have combined finances. one area where tpe should not be applied is career ie livelihood.

these savings have been put away so that sudden business trips etc would not be a problem, yet he's leaving her short and worried when she's making the trip of a lifetime. that's inconsiderate and bloody rude.

so he pays a fine for his mistake, so what? it's his fault. for her to take out an overdraft instead will cost about the same, but will cost her, not him. madness.

she mentioned that she feared being labelled an abused person. well, husbands who bash their partners usually apologise profusely and swear it will never happen again, until it does. if this master has gotten away with this once it sets the pattern in a similar way to my mind.

i don't think he seems responsible or mature enough yet to handle tpe.

sorry, but i think this master / slave thing is often carried to silly extremes, simply to comply with an unrealistic, in most cases, ideal.

So her fear was well-founded.

 

[BiaTcHiNFiRe]

Those are the actions of a child, not the actions of a Master, IMO. She's well within her rights to kick him in the balls.

*nods*

so true......

 

[SinfulSailor]

If he's making any mistake in my mind, honestly it's in acting overly apologetic

I know I'm gonna be waaaay in the minority here but I got used to that a long time ago.

I think this is one of the wisest things said on this thread.

A quotation that stuck with me:

"Just because everyone else disagrees with you doesn't mean you're right. But it's a good sign you are."

 

[~His Kitten~]

I could never do that. Even if he asked me to, I couldn't. I grew up poor and have since been a saver. Losing my nest egg would probably do more damage then good. Plus I think he'd lose my respect a little bit in the process....I know I'm archaic and its just my personal belief but men shouldn't take money from women, at least in large sums. *ducks from the thrown rotten fruit*

Kuddos for you being able to handle it. What doesn't kill us makes us that much stronger. Lesson learned for all.

 

[00Syd]

If you want to see if there is any free stuff happening in NYC when your there a good place to check would be The Onion which is a free paper and can be found on most corners in a green box with a white onion on the side, I think you can also look on their website but I'm not sure.

Another good place to look is The Village Voice which can also be picked up free at various points around town but you can look on their website as well if thats easier. http://www.villagevoice.com/ Just look under the various headings like Music, Film, etc. and from there you can find if there is anything happening and it should say whether its free or not.

I would recommend just going to China Town and walking around. It'll be cold and depending on when you go it could be REALLY crowded but if you get off a main street its usually all right. You can eat for cheap really easily in China Town, and usually the cheapest places have the most authentic food anyway so it works out. And if your one for buying souvenirs, all the crap for sale around China Town is pretty cheap.

Also, if there is just any neighborhood that strikes your fancy (downtown, the east village, the west village, midtown) it costs nothing to just walk around and look.

Here are some tips on how to get cheap seats if your interested in theatre: http://nymag.com/guides/cheap/theater/

Free/cheap walking tours: http://nymag.com/guides/cheap/walkingtours/

I mean, there is a TON of free/cheap stuff going on in NYC on any given day. it might take a little searching, and a little perseverance, and maybe a little waiting on line, but its often worth it.

If you have any questions about the city itself, the different neighborhoods and boroughs and whatnot, I would be more than happy to help. I love my city and I always want other people to love their time here!

Sorry I can't help you out with more than just tourism tips, but I do what I can. I hope everything works out between you and yours, and that you have a good trip!

 

[BeachGurl2]

I think I was uncomfortable at the time because I didn't feel like he was protecting me from his own limitations.

I think for me, this statement says it all. I agree that you've chosen TPE and you've given him control, so yes, you've given him the right to do as he sees fit. My problem with what he has done is that he's putting you into what really could amount to a precarious position due to his own stupid mistake. In my opinion, he's not really sucking it up and handling it. He's using you to handle it for him. In my opinion, that's a little on the shaky side. He's not protecting you, he's actually putting you at risk to cover his mistake. How can you trust someone who is willing to put you at risk? Yes, he's human. He makes mistakes, too. And you have to be prepared for them. But his putting you at risk isn't unintentional - he's making a conscious decision to fix his own mistake at your expense. Sending you off to New York without extra cash, cleaning out your savings so that you have no cushion yourself. Those put you at risk. I know this opinion won't be popular here. Sorry, but I think he's behaved badly in this decision. In my opinion, not a very responsible master.

 

[Netzach]

*Applauds*

All the more reason I will never be a slave--or a slave-owner, for that matter. I cannot imagine being so irresponsible about something so important when I am supposed to be the responsible party in the relationship. And then expecting someone else to clean up my mess for me?

Hell, no. Those are the actions of a child, not the actions of a Master, IMO. She's well within her rights to kick him in the balls.

Dude if total perfect track record of responsibility was requisite for all Dominants no one would do D/s. I certainly would be bottomless slaveless and on my own.

If it's a one-off, then it's making use of your property. If it's a new trend, then yeah, it IS using someone to prop yourself up and it's not going to last - it's too crazy-making and it will kill the needed respect for M/s.

It's too early to tell.

I do think that the aspect of control has to come into play - "yes, I made a mistake and you pay the price in this case and that's my right, as we agreed. Problem?" Rather than "oh shit, dude, lend me 500 bucks, please, I SWEAR I'll pay it back."

It's not the what but the how and the why. There is nothing abusive in an M/s agreement, as I do it, anyway, in deciding that my immediate wants negate H's immediate wants. I won't let him wind up on the street and that's all he needs to know.

 

[BiBunny]

Dude if total perfect track record of responsibility was requisite for all Dominants no one would do D/s. I certainly would be bottomless slaveless and on my own.

If it's a one-off, then it's making use of your property. If it's a new trend, then yeah, it IS using someone to prop yourself up and it's not going to last - it's too crazy-making and it will kill the needed respect for M/s.

It's too early to tell.

I do think that the aspect of control has to come into play - "yes, I made a mistake and you pay the price in this case and that's my right, as we agreed. Problem?" Rather than "oh shit, dude, lend me 500 bucks, please, I SWEAR I'll pay it back."

It's not the what but the how and the why. There is nothing abusive in an M/s agreement, as I do it, anyway, in deciding that my immediate wants negate H's immediate wants. I won't let him wind up on the street and that's all he needs to know.

*Nods* We're all damned irresponsible at times, for sure. I know I can be.

I think what bugs me about this situation has nothing to do with M/s at all. I think it's that he KNEW he had to do this. He KNEW he had to take care of it. But, instead of doing what he should've done in the first place, he blew it off 'til the last minute and then expected her to bail him out. Dude should suck it up and pay the fine or whatever. If you get your ass in a crack, I have respect for you if you get your ass out. If you expect someone else to do it for you, not so much.

Admittedly, this could be my own personal bias coming through. I dated a guy for two years who blamed all his shortcomings on everyone and everything BUT himself, so I could still be hung up on "a real man (or woman) takes responsibility for his (or her) own actions," whether that need apply in this case or not. I wouldn't twitch an eyelash if she'd volunteered to bail his ass out. It's the "you're going to do this to save my ass because I was too irresponsible to do it myself, irrespective of whether that screws you over or not" that bugs me here. That would apply, M/s or no, I think.

 

[Netzach]

*Nods* We're all damned irresponsible at times, for sure. I know I can be.

I think what bugs me about this situation has nothing to do with M/s at all. I think it's that he KNEW he had to do this. He KNEW he had to take care of it. But, instead of doing what he should've done in the first place, he blew it off 'til the last minute and then expected her to bail him out. Dude should suck it up and pay the fine or whatever. If you get your ass in a crack, I have respect for you if you get your ass out. If you expect someone else to do it for you, not so much.

Admittedly, this could be my own personal bias coming through. I dated a guy for two years who blamed all his shortcomings on everyone and everything BUT himself, so I could still be hung up on "a real man (or woman) takes responsibility for his (or her) own actions," whether that need apply in this case or not. I wouldn't twitch an eyelash if she'd volunteered to bail his ass out. It's the "you're going to do this to save my ass because I was too irresponsible to do it myself, irrespective of whether that screws you over or not" that bugs me here. That would apply, M/s or no, I think.

I would also choose back taxes over the destabilizing effect that this might have, but that's me, it's not them. I can't say it's *wrong* I just think that it is really important to consider how your actions are going to be read, and I can't say that I like the reading that pulling money out of an account because I *have* to rather than because I *want* to lends.

 

[Bandit58]

Yesterday, for the first time since Master and I went TPE a little over 3 months ago, Master made the first decision that I am unhappy with. Of course, I knew that it would happen.

Master is self employed. He did his tax return and discovered that it is more than he had expected it to be. He has to pay 3 times the tax that he thought he would have to. Master does not have the money to cover this by the end of the month, when it has to be paid or he'll incur a fine.

He has therefore made the executive decision to take the money from my savings account and repay it later, when he can afford to. It will pretty much zero my account until I get it back, which he reckons will be in 2 months time. He has had the pincodes to my accounts since I became his slave. I'm useless at remembering the codes for my cards anyway. I have the cards and he doesn't have duplicates so I have handed over my card in order for him to withdraw the money.

I wouldn't be so bothered, but I'm taking a business trip to New York tomorrow and will now not have much cash with me. I have never been to New York, so I was hoping to be a bit of a tourist but tourist attractions cost money. I have enough to cover expenses such as meals etc and another company is paying for my flight and hotel.

I also don't like not having my savings as an emergency cash buffer. My current account has no spare cash sitting in it and it makes me feel vulnerable, not least because he is broke as well. I have always had at least £250 ($500) in case of dire emergency since I left home 10 years ago.

I must confess I'm selfish enough to be quite disappointed. He has had since April to do this tax return, I have been nagging him (as instructed) daily since Christmas. He chooses to fill in the forms online yesterday and the money is due by the end of this month. I understand that taxes are more important than spending money for a trip. I have no doubt that he will return the money to my account as soon as possible. I just feel as though I'm paying for his mistake and I don't like that feeling.

He has apologised and said that he was stupid to do the return last minute, assuming it would tally up with his own calculations. He has promised to ensure that it doesn't happen again. He now considers that the end of the matter.

I really don't know what my problem is but I've been quite resentful today. I have done my tasks and chores and all the while this has been in the back of my mind, souring everything. I really thought that I would handle stuff like this better than I am. It has really brought home to me how truly vulnerable my slavery has made me.

Has anyone else been through something similar?

This is why handing over financial control to another is always going to be a hard limit for me.

In our relationship, which is NOT TPE, I handle the finances. Sir is quite happy for me to pay the bills - I do it online through internet banking, and He pays His half to me in cash. I have a credit card and if Sir wants to purchase anything online He will ask me, and He does pay me back later. We have separate bank accounts but I have His PIN number (He doesn't have mine - He doesn't want to know it unless it's necessary). I have His so I can get His money from the ATM if He is too unwell to do it Himself.

I can understand the vulnerability of not having the "backup" of some money in the bank for emergencies. I also agree that the Dom in question was seriously irresponsible in not working out earlier how much money would be needed to pay the taxes. I also agree that he should pay the penalty fine and perhaps ask the tax department if they can put him on a repayment schedule. That would be easier than having to find the money all at once and would give Velvet some security when she goes on her trip.

 

[NoLeafClover7]

I agree with the others about what they said regarding working out financial situations. And with that said, also, while I do not know you or your master, there is such a thing as taking advantage of someone in this situation. Make sure that doesn't happen in your case. Just because a master and slave have a total power exchange relationship doesn't give any master the right to wantonly abuse the situation. Again, I'm not saying your master is. I'm just saying be careful for it. This whole situation gives me bad vibes.

 

[graceanne]

I haven't read all the other replies, but I do want to point out that money is one of the top things people fight, and divorce, over. Beyond that, if he's not good at money their's nothing wrong with him having you do it, as one of the things you do to serve him. I'm pretty much in charge of our finances, cause K HATES dealing with it, and I'm better at it. *shrugs*

 

[VelvetDarkness]

OK, update.

I am flying out tonight and I'm so excited.

Other stuff.

We sat down last night and discussed everything. We occasionally have talks where I can step out of my slave shoes for a short while and be more forthright than I am usually comfortable with. This was one of those times. We have resolved our issues over everything.

He has been on the phone all morning sorting out what he can get away with paying this month. He has pulled out the stops and tried everything he can think of plus he got some advice from a friend who has been in the same business for longer.

The result of all this is that he now only needs half the cash that he was told he would. He's been a bit cheeky about negotiating with the local tax office but they have accepted that he made a stupid mistake and are giving him longer to pay. So this morning he gave me back half the sum that he'd taken.

Netz's comment about how it's simpler if he uses my money because he wants to and it's part of our agreed TPE rel than because he needs to is a valid one. I did say to Master that my respect for him was potentially threatened by his apologetic attitude. He thought about that and could see where I was coming from. When he returned the money today he was matter-of-fact about it.

I appreciate that he did what he could to sort out the situation and believe me when I say that he has learned valuable lessons both in finance and in treating his property with the respect that he promised to. He does not intend for this to ever happen again. So right now we both win. I get the money that I wanted for my trip and he gets to pay his tax in a manageable way.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

If he's making any mistake in my mind, honestly it's in acting overly apologetic and like someone who's dropped the ball and fucked up and owes anything more than replacing the funds as he's stated when he's stated. It IS a fuck up and it IS stupid, but that is a person's prerogative some of the time, Dom or not.

I agree with SinfulSailor that this is a really major point and one that I didn't really consider until I read Netz's comments. It has a huge impact on how I view decisions that L makes and how much I respect him as a result.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

You are handling this well VD. It is just one of the realities so many overlook or dismiss when claiming to want a TPE relationship. Mindset is everything, communication vital especially in the early stages, and reality checks reinforcing of the dynamic intended and lived.

Catalina

Thankyou Cat, I was hoping you'd think so. I know he dropped the ball somewhat but only momentarily.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I think what bugs me about this situation has nothing to do with M/s at all. I think it's that he KNEW he had to do this. He KNEW he had to take care of it. But, instead of doing what he should've done in the first place, he blew it off 'til the last minute and then expected her to bail him out. Dude should suck it up and pay the fine or whatever. If you get your ass in a crack, I have respect for you if you get your ass out. If you expect someone else to do it for you, not so much.

Yep, this is why I was so pissed off at first. It's one thing for him to make use of my resources as his property because he has a right to. It's another thing for him to fuck up and use me to bail him out. My view now is that, if he didn't ever flex his TPE muscle and use me and what I have as he chooses to, what's the point in him having that right? How can I even say that he has full rights as my owner if he wants something from me and I tell him to fuck off?

Also, while I appreciate the concern expressed by people here who don't get the TPE slave thing. I'd just like to say that I'm not scared of him and I don't feel put upon. I feel like his slave - which is exactly as it should be. I am simply grateful that he sorted things out and returned half the money.

Although it would damage the dynamic and I'd have to consider my position if it happened more than once, if L had said that he was taking my money and had no intention of returning it, that would still be within the bounds of our TPE. What's mine is his, literally. I might have been pissed off and I might have left him if it happened repeatedly but he would still have been within the rights I have handed to him.

As I'm having a Netz quotathon today ~ anything that doesn't suck is a gift from L. That is indeed how it works.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Thankyou very much 00Syd, I will definitely check all of this out.

If you want to see if there is any free stuff happening in NYC when your there a good place to check would be The Onion which is a free paper and can be found on most corners in a green box with a white onion on the side, I think you can also look on their website but I'm not sure.

Another good place to look is The Village Voice which can also be picked up free at various points around town but you can look on their website as well if thats easier. http://www.villagevoice.com/ Just look under the various headings like Music, Film, etc. and from there you can find if there is anything happening and it should say whether its free or not.

I would recommend just going to China Town and walking around. It'll be cold and depending on when you go it could be REALLY crowded but if you get off a main street its usually all right. You can eat for cheap really easily in China Town, and usually the cheapest places have the most authentic food anyway so it works out. And if your one for buying souvenirs, all the crap for sale around China Town is pretty cheap.

Also, if there is just any neighborhood that strikes your fancy (downtown, the east village, the west village, midtown) it costs nothing to just walk around and look.

Here are some tips on how to get cheap seats if your interested in theatre: http://nymag.com/guides/cheap/theater/

Free/cheap walking tours: http://nymag.com/guides/cheap/walkingtours/

I mean, there is a TON of free/cheap stuff going on in NYC on any given day. it might take a little searching, and a little perseverance, and maybe a little waiting on line, but its often worth it.

If you have any questions about the city itself, the different neighborhoods and boroughs and whatnot, I would be more than happy to help. I love my city and I always want other people to love their time here!

Sorry I can't help you out with more than just tourism tips, but I do what I can. I hope everything works out between you and yours, and that you have a good trip!

 

[ChilliJam]

I haven't read the whole thread, but if you are happy with things Velvet, then I'd say that's all that really matters.

 

[bandelero]

Real sorry to hear about your problem Velvet, but my word, I admire your sheer guts in absorbing the angst and dealing with it !

If I could send £ believe me I would, failing that, have some hugs, they be free and I AM good at them

((((((((Velvet))))))))

Would like to wish you and Master all the best and will keep my digits Xed for you both.
Hope that you have a great trip despite the lack of shekels...do cheapo stuff

Obviously my Xed digits did the trick!

Srsly pleased for you both that it worked out win-win and now you have some loot to play with in NY

 

[sexycaz22]

Hi there, I have been keeping an close eye on this thread and while I don't pretend to know anything about M/s relationship, I was a bit concerned for you, Velvet, and is really pleased to find out that you have stepped out of your "slave shoes" as you call it, and talked to your Master, and told him how you felt about this issue. I am really pleased for you.

And I am also pleased that you have some cash to enjoy the trip to NY!

Have fun!

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Hi there, I have been keeping an close eye on this thread and while I don't pretend to know anything about M/s relationship, I was a bit concerned for you, Velvet, and is really pleased to find out that you have stepped out of your "slave shoes" as you call it, and talked to your Master, and told him how you felt about this issue. I am really pleased for you.

I did do that but stepping out of my slave shoes wasn't really the issue. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I got what I wanted by putting the M/s dynamic on hold. Sometimes we need to have discussions that are easier if I speak more freely and am less deferential but they are always within the bounds of respect and at all times he remains my owner.

Just wanted to clarify that.