In defense of 'I', the 1st person POV
- Thread starter jfinn
- Start date
KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2000
- Posts
- 25,603
I missed out on the original brouhaha, I think I'll keep it that way.
I don't think there's a "better" or "worse", but I do think there is a scale of difficulty to do well, which is apparently converse to the scale of difficulty to do at all.
Second person is, by far, the most difficult POV to master. It can be done. There are second person stories that make you weep with their beautiful craftsmanship. It's also the absolute easiest one to get started off as a writer with. Why? Because of the intimacy issues. To the writer, second person is seductively intimate. You're speaking directly to the reader. To the read, however (this is where write well comes in), Second person is not only forcing an uninvited intimacy, it's presumptuous. You presume the gender of the reader, the reactions, the knowledge, everything there is to create when you make the reader a character in the story. Beginning writers compound the ickiness of the uninvited intimacy and presumptuousness by having a very, very narrow audience that they write to (not for). They usually write to their lover or the object of their fantasy. One person, this "you", that they have firmly fixed in their heads. It's very easy to write to once person instead of many; it's also exclusionary and don't think readers don't pick up on that. It's very difficult to write to "you" and have the average reader feel comfortable with it. Should a writer avoid it? To some extent. This POV is the most likely one to lose readers and get bad reviews.
First person is hard to write well, but pretty easy to write in. Why is it harder to to write well in? Several reasons that usually hang around in the realm of the beginning writer. It can be less of a story and more of a recitation of what "I" did. The "I" character isn't a character at all, it's a person who has a vested interest in not being fully honest about the "I" person. "I" is suddenly Beowulf heroic, or "I" is always the good guy who just happened to get caught at the wrong time. "I" is bordering on perfection. Interesting characters are flawed, not perfect. Writing in first person also kind of kicks the antagonist in the teeth. Creating multidimensional characters is challenging enough without the handicap of always being stuck with "I"s limited senses and perceptions. These aren't things that happen in all first person stories. They aren't even all of the problems people have with first person, they're just a few of the difficulties that many beginning writers repeat over and over again. First person is also easy to write in because it is personal and it is easier to get into the character as a writer. After all, it's immediate and egocentric. It's also not too hard to read. A lot of pornohounds like first person because it's pure voyeurism. It's not just physical sex, but it's getting inside another person. Should a writer avoid it? I don't think so. Readers like it and writers have a relatively easy time writing in it.
Third person is the easiest to write well in, but the hardest to write at all. The narrator has more room in this POV. S/he can get into any character and move the plot forward no matter where the protagonist is at. Sometimes it's necessary to be someplace where the protagonist isn't, third person has no difficulties with this where first person will get a raised eyebrow at the least. It also put authorial distance between the writer and the protagonist. This is good because it keeps the protagonist from being the author's idea of him or herself as perfect. Some people say it's bad because it puts distance, but I think a certain amount of distance is necessary in good writing. It's the hardest to write in, though, because it does have the distance. The author is forced--more or less--to think of the protagonist in a less immediate way than first person. When you start out writing, it's easier when you take a larger part of the action (for most, not all) than when you don't. Beginners write autobiographically. Like I said before, however, readers here at Lit like that sort of thing. They like thinking that what they're reading is a part of the author's life, especially if the author is female. I think that beginning writers should devote a lion's share of writing to third person and then move into first later if they intend to move beyond Lit and places like it with their writing.
Bear in mind that this is generally speaking. Virtuosos in the field don't count. Just because Mr. Famous Author wrote nothing but second person doesn't mean that every Tom, Dick, and Virginia can do it. Likewise, just because every Tom, Dick, and Virginia can't write effectively in second person doesn't mean that Carolina can't either. It depends on a few things, the story, the talent of the author, and who is reading it.
I don't think there's a "better" or "worse", but I do think there is a scale of difficulty to do well, which is apparently converse to the scale of difficulty to do at all.
Second person is, by far, the most difficult POV to master. It can be done. There are second person stories that make you weep with their beautiful craftsmanship. It's also the absolute easiest one to get started off as a writer with. Why? Because of the intimacy issues. To the writer, second person is seductively intimate. You're speaking directly to the reader. To the read, however (this is where write well comes in), Second person is not only forcing an uninvited intimacy, it's presumptuous. You presume the gender of the reader, the reactions, the knowledge, everything there is to create when you make the reader a character in the story. Beginning writers compound the ickiness of the uninvited intimacy and presumptuousness by having a very, very narrow audience that they write to (not for). They usually write to their lover or the object of their fantasy. One person, this "you", that they have firmly fixed in their heads. It's very easy to write to once person instead of many; it's also exclusionary and don't think readers don't pick up on that. It's very difficult to write to "you" and have the average reader feel comfortable with it. Should a writer avoid it? To some extent. This POV is the most likely one to lose readers and get bad reviews.
First person is hard to write well, but pretty easy to write in. Why is it harder to to write well in? Several reasons that usually hang around in the realm of the beginning writer. It can be less of a story and more of a recitation of what "I" did. The "I" character isn't a character at all, it's a person who has a vested interest in not being fully honest about the "I" person. "I" is suddenly Beowulf heroic, or "I" is always the good guy who just happened to get caught at the wrong time. "I" is bordering on perfection. Interesting characters are flawed, not perfect. Writing in first person also kind of kicks the antagonist in the teeth. Creating multidimensional characters is challenging enough without the handicap of always being stuck with "I"s limited senses and perceptions. These aren't things that happen in all first person stories. They aren't even all of the problems people have with first person, they're just a few of the difficulties that many beginning writers repeat over and over again. First person is also easy to write in because it is personal and it is easier to get into the character as a writer. After all, it's immediate and egocentric. It's also not too hard to read. A lot of pornohounds like first person because it's pure voyeurism. It's not just physical sex, but it's getting inside another person. Should a writer avoid it? I don't think so. Readers like it and writers have a relatively easy time writing in it.
Third person is the easiest to write well in, but the hardest to write at all. The narrator has more room in this POV. S/he can get into any character and move the plot forward no matter where the protagonist is at. Sometimes it's necessary to be someplace where the protagonist isn't, third person has no difficulties with this where first person will get a raised eyebrow at the least. It also put authorial distance between the writer and the protagonist. This is good because it keeps the protagonist from being the author's idea of him or herself as perfect. Some people say it's bad because it puts distance, but I think a certain amount of distance is necessary in good writing. It's the hardest to write in, though, because it does have the distance. The author is forced--more or less--to think of the protagonist in a less immediate way than first person. When you start out writing, it's easier when you take a larger part of the action (for most, not all) than when you don't. Beginners write autobiographically. Like I said before, however, readers here at Lit like that sort of thing. They like thinking that what they're reading is a part of the author's life, especially if the author is female. I think that beginning writers should devote a lion's share of writing to third person and then move into first later if they intend to move beyond Lit and places like it with their writing.
Bear in mind that this is generally speaking. Virtuosos in the field don't count. Just because Mr. Famous Author wrote nothing but second person doesn't mean that every Tom, Dick, and Virginia can do it. Likewise, just because every Tom, Dick, and Virginia can't write effectively in second person doesn't mean that Carolina can't either. It depends on a few things, the story, the talent of the author, and who is reading it.
oggbashan
Dying Truth seeker
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 56,017
Variations on a theme
I agree with KM above but there are variations even within the various POVs.
1st person can be truthful, be truthful but mistaken, or can delude themselves and the reader.
2nd person can be "you the public" or "you the protagonist" or "you the person to whom the story is told". Each is a different style and emphasis.
3rd person can be external observer, can have limited knowledge or can be omniscient.
Choices, choices. What matters is what works for you in the story.
As I said earlier, changing POVs in mid-stream is not recommended. Alternating 1st person can work reasonably well but the reader has to know and accept what you are doing.
The reader has to understand the conventions of each POV at least empirically. If you can confine the world in a little compass and make it believable then you as an author can get away with almost anything. If you can't, sticking to the rules makes life easier for you and your audience.
Og
I agree with KM above but there are variations even within the various POVs.
1st person can be truthful, be truthful but mistaken, or can delude themselves and the reader.
2nd person can be "you the public" or "you the protagonist" or "you the person to whom the story is told". Each is a different style and emphasis.
3rd person can be external observer, can have limited knowledge or can be omniscient.
Choices, choices. What matters is what works for you in the story.
As I said earlier, changing POVs in mid-stream is not recommended. Alternating 1st person can work reasonably well but the reader has to know and accept what you are doing.
The reader has to understand the conventions of each POV at least empirically. If you can confine the world in a little compass and make it believable then you as an author can get away with almost anything. If you can't, sticking to the rules makes life easier for you and your audience.
Og
hiddenself
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2002
- Posts
- 452
dr_mabeuse said:
I use a screwdriver to cut things. Come to think of it, I use a screwdriver to nail them together, to gouge them, to shape them, to... you name it, I do it. With just a screwdriver. Thousands of people have stopped by and admired how I do it all with just a screwdriver. Unfortunately, I ain't gotten any feedback from them. Still, the screwdriver rules.
Pookie
Chop!! Chop!!
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2002
- Posts
- 58,778
I have posted this before. But it seems a good time to do it again.
Poison Pen's Guide for Amateur Writers of Erotica
by Andrew Nellis, aka the Poison Pen © 1997
Perspective
The first thing you'll have to decide when writing a story is which perspective the story will be told from. For the beginner it is best to avoid the potentially risky literary trick of switching perspectives part-way through the story. The three major perspectives from which a story can be told are listed below.
Perspective [first person]:
In a story which uses the first person perspective, a narrator describes the action for us in his or her own voice. This can be a very effective technique when used well, but often reads like "What I Did On My Summer Vacation" if it is done badly.
Remember first that the narrator cannot describe what he or she did not witness or is not aware of. This is one of the weaknesses of the first person perspective. For this reason, it is recommended that beginners avoid the first person and stick to third person. If you are going to use first person, one tool which can be useful for avoiding this problem is telling the story in the first person from the perspective of more than one character, switching between characters as required.
In particular, avoid falling into the trap of beginning every sentence or paragraph with "Then I did this." If your story is nothing more than a laundry list of the narrator's actions, it would be much better to use third person.
Perspective [second person]:
In a story which uses the second person perspective, the story tells the reader what he or she did or is doing. "You did this, and then you did that," would be an example of second person perspective. It is with good reason that this is not an often-used perspective, since it requires considerable skill to keep it from sounding clunky and awkward. It is highly recommended that the beginner avoid using this perspective altogether.
There is a definite role for the second person perspective in erotic writing, however. Since the purpose of erotic writing is to sexually engage the reader, and since the easiest way to do this is to draw the reader into the role of participant within the story, second person enjoys a usefulness in the genre that it does not in most others. Be wary of overusing this tool, since its effectiveness diminishes with use.
Perspective [third person]:
Third person is the most common perspective used in stories, and is the easiest for a novice to master.
The most usual variation of the third person is known as "third person omniscient." With this perspective, the author writes from the effective perspective of God, able to look into each character's head and read his or her thoughts, moving from place to place and character to character with infinite speed. One weakness of this variation is that it removes the ability of the author to lie to the reader. Since the perspective is omniscient, all the statements made in the "voice of God" must be absolutely true. It is difficult, though not impossible, to maintain secrecy from the reader; this must be done by omission, and it must be done cleverly or the reader will become suspicious and any surprise or tension will be lost.
A second variation is the "third person semi-omniscient." In this case, while the author writes from the effective perspective of God, it is with limitations. For example, the thoughts and motives of the characters may not be available by the author. This perspective can be useful when trying to maintain some mystery in a story, since it allows characters to hide things from the readers without drawing attention to it.
The other major variation of third person involves a fallible, non- omniscient perspective. Using this voice, the author can actually state deliberate lies to actively fool the reader. For example, to keep the gender of a character a mystery, the author may refer to a "him" as a "her" and vice versa, until this subterfuge becomes known by the characters in the story. This can be a difficult perspective to use, and it is recommended that the novice avoid it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tense
One of the most common mistakes of amateur writers is confusion of tenses. Make absolutely certain that you use the same tense all the way through. If your story is told in past tense, it should remain in the past tense. An experienced author may be able to get away with breaking this "rule" as a stylistic flair or literary tool, but this requires a great deal of expertise and should be avoided by anyone who lacks extensive experience.
Past Tense:
For the beginner, past tense is the best option. It is easiest to master, and is familiar to all readers. Having already happened, it allows the author to shift backward and forward in time as required to tell the story.
Present Tense:
Present tense can be an extremely effective tool when used right, since it drops the reader right into the action, and gives the story a sense of immediacy, particularly when combined with first or second person. This is a difficult ploy to use, however, as it requires a great deal of skill to maintain proper pacing and flow. It should absolutely be avoided by the novice. This is NOT a tool for the beginner to use, and in the wrong hands can make a story painfully unreadable.
Other Tenses:
While I have never seen a story written in the future tense, it is at least theoretically possible. Such a story would require incredible skill to write properly, and would always be awkward for the reader. Do not use the future tense.
Poison Pen's Guide for Amateur Writers of Erotica
by Andrew Nellis, aka the Poison Pen © 1997
Perspective
The first thing you'll have to decide when writing a story is which perspective the story will be told from. For the beginner it is best to avoid the potentially risky literary trick of switching perspectives part-way through the story. The three major perspectives from which a story can be told are listed below.
Perspective [first person]:
In a story which uses the first person perspective, a narrator describes the action for us in his or her own voice. This can be a very effective technique when used well, but often reads like "What I Did On My Summer Vacation" if it is done badly.
Remember first that the narrator cannot describe what he or she did not witness or is not aware of. This is one of the weaknesses of the first person perspective. For this reason, it is recommended that beginners avoid the first person and stick to third person. If you are going to use first person, one tool which can be useful for avoiding this problem is telling the story in the first person from the perspective of more than one character, switching between characters as required.
In particular, avoid falling into the trap of beginning every sentence or paragraph with "Then I did this." If your story is nothing more than a laundry list of the narrator's actions, it would be much better to use third person.
Perspective [second person]:
In a story which uses the second person perspective, the story tells the reader what he or she did or is doing. "You did this, and then you did that," would be an example of second person perspective. It is with good reason that this is not an often-used perspective, since it requires considerable skill to keep it from sounding clunky and awkward. It is highly recommended that the beginner avoid using this perspective altogether.
There is a definite role for the second person perspective in erotic writing, however. Since the purpose of erotic writing is to sexually engage the reader, and since the easiest way to do this is to draw the reader into the role of participant within the story, second person enjoys a usefulness in the genre that it does not in most others. Be wary of overusing this tool, since its effectiveness diminishes with use.
Perspective [third person]:
Third person is the most common perspective used in stories, and is the easiest for a novice to master.
The most usual variation of the third person is known as "third person omniscient." With this perspective, the author writes from the effective perspective of God, able to look into each character's head and read his or her thoughts, moving from place to place and character to character with infinite speed. One weakness of this variation is that it removes the ability of the author to lie to the reader. Since the perspective is omniscient, all the statements made in the "voice of God" must be absolutely true. It is difficult, though not impossible, to maintain secrecy from the reader; this must be done by omission, and it must be done cleverly or the reader will become suspicious and any surprise or tension will be lost.
A second variation is the "third person semi-omniscient." In this case, while the author writes from the effective perspective of God, it is with limitations. For example, the thoughts and motives of the characters may not be available by the author. This perspective can be useful when trying to maintain some mystery in a story, since it allows characters to hide things from the readers without drawing attention to it.
The other major variation of third person involves a fallible, non- omniscient perspective. Using this voice, the author can actually state deliberate lies to actively fool the reader. For example, to keep the gender of a character a mystery, the author may refer to a "him" as a "her" and vice versa, until this subterfuge becomes known by the characters in the story. This can be a difficult perspective to use, and it is recommended that the novice avoid it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tense
One of the most common mistakes of amateur writers is confusion of tenses. Make absolutely certain that you use the same tense all the way through. If your story is told in past tense, it should remain in the past tense. An experienced author may be able to get away with breaking this "rule" as a stylistic flair or literary tool, but this requires a great deal of expertise and should be avoided by anyone who lacks extensive experience.
Past Tense:
For the beginner, past tense is the best option. It is easiest to master, and is familiar to all readers. Having already happened, it allows the author to shift backward and forward in time as required to tell the story.
Present Tense:
Present tense can be an extremely effective tool when used right, since it drops the reader right into the action, and gives the story a sense of immediacy, particularly when combined with first or second person. This is a difficult ploy to use, however, as it requires a great deal of skill to maintain proper pacing and flow. It should absolutely be avoided by the novice. This is NOT a tool for the beginner to use, and in the wrong hands can make a story painfully unreadable.
Other Tenses:
While I have never seen a story written in the future tense, it is at least theoretically possible. Such a story would require incredible skill to write properly, and would always be awkward for the reader. Do not use the future tense.
Sabledrake
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2002
- Posts
- 1,008
First person POV is very common in the spy/mystery/detective/thriller genre. Not so common in others. What really takes some getting used to, for me, is novels in which the author switches back and forth. The scenes with the detective are first-person, which is good for a mystery because that does limit the reader to what the protagonist knows, but then the scene will shift to third person and show what the killer's up to ... and that seems like cheating somehow.
Some stories, in my experience, demand to be told in the first person and work better that way. My "Neglected Son" series was like that. I had a couple of third-person false starts, then realized what was wrong. Once I tried from first-person, it went like a house afire.
Those stories generated a lot of feedback (though I'm sure a lot of that had to do with the category <g>), and I personally found it an interesting, if bizarre experience. Especially once my first-person protagonist started going insane and changing into a really twisted little shit. I started off feeling sorry for him and finding his actions almost understandable, if not excusable, and ended up not liking him very much at all.
Sabledrake
Some stories, in my experience, demand to be told in the first person and work better that way. My "Neglected Son" series was like that. I had a couple of third-person false starts, then realized what was wrong. Once I tried from first-person, it went like a house afire.
Those stories generated a lot of feedback (though I'm sure a lot of that had to do with the category <g>), and I personally found it an interesting, if bizarre experience. Especially once my first-person protagonist started going insane and changing into a really twisted little shit. I started off feeling sorry for him and finding his actions almost understandable, if not excusable, and ended up not liking him very much at all.
Sabledrake
TheEarl
Occasional visitor
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2002
- Posts
- 9,808
Hands up. This is a hijack.
Then there is always Lazlo Woodbine who always uses the first person and only uses the four locations. His office where the damsel who will do him wrong comes to visit, the alleyway where he gets bopped on the head and falls into a whirling pit of darkness, Fangio's bar, where he talks a load of toot with the fatboy barman and the rooftop scene where he has the final showdown with the villain.
Name the author.
The Earl
Then there is always Lazlo Woodbine who always uses the first person and only uses the four locations. His office where the damsel who will do him wrong comes to visit, the alleyway where he gets bopped on the head and falls into a whirling pit of darkness, Fangio's bar, where he talks a load of toot with the fatboy barman and the rooftop scene where he has the final showdown with the villain.
Name the author.
The Earl
dr_mabeuse
seduce the mind
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2002
- Posts
- 11,528
When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
---dr.M.
---dr.M.
Svenskaflicka
Fountain
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2002
- Posts
- 16,142
Me, I like drills...
Quasimodem
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2001
- Posts
- 2,191
For both cutting things up quite handily, as well as for being loudly percussive,
I prefer AxetheSwede!
I prefer
AxetheSwede! 
sirhugs
Riding to the Rescue
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2002
- Posts
- 40,365
Pookie_grrl said:I prefer the hammer myself. When it's all said and done, my thumb might be bruised, but at least I'll still have both of them.
So there.
Pookie
the truly deft carpenter can adapt to using the saw to fit joints ( who needs the hammer and nails?) or the hammer to tear apart.
Quasimodem
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2001
- Posts
- 2,191
Pookie_grrl said:I just love a carpenter who can use all his tools. . . It's amazing how satisfied I am with the end results as well.
Pookie
I guess that means that you have no use whatever for a spot welder?
G
Guest
Guest
hmmmmmm
KM-
I was interested in the feedback I received for the second person stories. What was most interesting was the number of women that liked the stories. It was almost a "yes, i could (do) feel that way too!"
b
KillerMuffin said:
KM-
I was interested in the feedback I received for the second person stories. What was most interesting was the number of women that liked the stories. It was almost a "yes, i could (do) feel that way too!"
b
dr_mabeuse
seduce the mind
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2002
- Posts
- 11,528
See? You never know. I've had requests for second person stuff where I give the woman "orders" to touch herself and masturbate. One girl said that she loves to read stuff like that and follow the orders. It's how she gets off.
But... Is it art?
It was Fats Waller who said: "One never knows, do one?"
---dr.M.
But... Is it art?
It was Fats Waller who said: "One never knows, do one?"
---dr.M.
KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2000
- Posts
- 25,603
Re: hmmmmmm
I'm not saying you can't find people who like second person. I'm saying that you'll find a lot of people who don't like to read second person. Do you? Can you get through a second person where she's telling you how much she loves your cock? Can you read a second person story where he's telling you what and how to do it and "you" reacts in ways that you'd never do? Do you enjoy the story? Do you feel like you're a part of the story or does it make you feel vaguely uneasy? Or do you back click? Like the rest of us do?
Me, I see the protagonist is "you", I'm gone. I haven't run across a second person story yet where the first paragraph hooked me enough to keep me interested.
bridgetkeeney said:KM-
I was interested in the feedback I received for the second person stories. What was most interesting was the number of women that liked the stories. It was almost a "yes, i could (do) feel that way too!"
I'm not saying you can't find people who like second person. I'm saying that you'll find a lot of people who don't like to read second person. Do you? Can you get through a second person where she's telling you how much she loves your cock? Can you read a second person story where he's telling you what and how to do it and "you" reacts in ways that you'd never do? Do you enjoy the story? Do you feel like you're a part of the story or does it make you feel vaguely uneasy? Or do you back click? Like the rest of us do?
Me, I see the protagonist is "you", I'm gone. I haven't run across a second person story yet where the first paragraph hooked me enough to keep me interested.
Weird Harold
Opinionated Old Fart
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2000
- Posts
- 23,768
Re: Variations on a theme
I too agree with KM, but in reading her assessment and your additional comments, -- especially the last qouted staement -- I realized something that most of the stories I like have in common -- Dialogue.
Aside from the main advantages of good dialogue to a story, there is one thing about good dialogie that is relevant to this discussion: In order to Write good dialogue, an author has to be able to write in first second and third person with all the various shadings and variations within them.
Dialogue requires shifts in tense and perspective and story focus to the person speaking within the quote marks and the choice of Person for each bit of dialogue is just as important as choosing the narrative voice and POV.
so actually, whatever POV is chosen for the overall story, if ALL of the options aren't used within the story as and where appropriate -- in dialogue, flashbacks or whatever else might be needed -- then a story is usually going to be a one-dimensional mediocrity at best.
oggbashan said:
I too agree with KM, but in reading her assessment and your additional comments, -- especially the last qouted staement -- I realized something that most of the stories I like have in common -- Dialogue.
Aside from the main advantages of good dialogue to a story, there is one thing about good dialogie that is relevant to this discussion: In order to Write good dialogue, an author has to be able to write in first second and third person with all the various shadings and variations within them.
Dialogue requires shifts in tense and perspective and story focus to the person speaking within the quote marks and the choice of Person for each bit of dialogue is just as important as choosing the narrative voice and POV.
so actually, whatever POV is chosen for the overall story, if ALL of the options aren't used within the story as and where appropriate -- in dialogue, flashbacks or whatever else might be needed -- then a story is usually going to be a one-dimensional mediocrity at best.
BardsLady
Really Experienced
- Joined
- May 30, 2003
- Posts
- 255
Hi All, BardsLady here.
I've read through all the messages here and i have to say that it's a very informative discussion on either side of the coin.
Me? I think that it's whatever trips a person's trigger to write in is just fine.
I've only recently started writing. I'm usually a Poet and a semi mediocher one at that.
My very first story was posted here. `Nightlife with Kiefer' was done in the first person. And I'm afraid that my husband and roomie banded together to twist my arm and force me to write a second chapter to the whole thing.
As I was writing it, tho, I was actually feeling the eroticism. I could SEE the moonlight in my mind and almost feel the hands on my body. Trying to put that whole passionate heat into perspective from a third person's point of view is almost impossible. Trust me, I tried the third person thing, but I found it hard to do.
But like I said, to each their own when it comes down to writing anything. It's a good debate, tho. I enjoyed it immensely.
BardsLady
I've read through all the messages here and i have to say that it's a very informative discussion on either side of the coin.
Me? I think that it's whatever trips a person's trigger to write in is just fine.
I've only recently started writing. I'm usually a Poet and a semi mediocher one at that.
My very first story was posted here. `Nightlife with Kiefer' was done in the first person. And I'm afraid that my husband and roomie banded together to twist my arm and force me to write a second chapter to the whole thing.
As I was writing it, tho, I was actually feeling the eroticism. I could SEE the moonlight in my mind and almost feel the hands on my body. Trying to put that whole passionate heat into perspective from a third person's point of view is almost impossible. Trust me, I tried the third person thing, but I found it hard to do.
But like I said, to each their own when it comes down to writing anything. It's a good debate, tho. I enjoyed it immensely.
BardsLady
jfinn
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2002
- Posts
- 593
Re: Re: hmmmmmm
I've only read a few things where second person has worked for me and those removed those feelings of How does he/she have the nerve to tell me how I feel? by formating the story in such a way that I didn't feel like I was the one the story was directed at, ie writing as if you were sending a letter or talking to someone in a private chatroom. It's more voyeuristic that way, which was better for me than feeling like I'm being manipulated. I guess you could call this second person once removed or something.
Jayne
KillerMuffin said:
I've only read a few things where second person has worked for me and those removed those feelings of How does he/she have the nerve to tell me how I feel? by formating the story in such a way that I didn't feel like I was the one the story was directed at, ie writing as if you were sending a letter or talking to someone in a private chatroom. It's more voyeuristic that way, which was better for me than feeling like I'm being manipulated. I guess you could call this second person once removed or something.
Jayne
openthighs_sarah
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
- Posts
- 713
I use first-person POV almost exclusively with the stuff I write for Lit. I do it because it lets me incorporate a lot of incidental details into the story in a more unobtrusive way, but mostly I do it because it's fun for me to write that way.
No perspective is easier than any other. First person just gets blasted sometimes because a lot of beginning writers use it to find their voice. I'll hang out with Holden Caulfield any day of the week, though.
No perspective is easier than any other. First person just gets blasted sometimes because a lot of beginning writers use it to find their voice. I'll hang out with Holden Caulfield any day of the week, though.
KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2000
- Posts
- 25,603
Re: Re: hmmmmmm
You know, this sounds incredibly hostile to me now for some reason.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.
KillerMuffin said:
You know, this sounds incredibly hostile to me now for some reason.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.
Quasimodem
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2001
- Posts
- 2,191
The Voice of Authority!
Before encountering this thread, I was unaware that First Person Narrative required this much defence. Actually, it is Second Person Narrative which needs defending. And no wonder why!
Second Person Narrative is the style of Authority.
Police, the Military, Bureaucrats, Advertisers and Teachers spend most of their working days speaking to you in the Second Person Narrative voice.
“I am telling you to go there, do this, now! Then, come back, and I will give you your next command.”
Considering the associative connotations mixed within the Second Person Narrative voice, it is no wonder that its upsets so many readers and writers, alike.
But, if you ever do change your mind, and embrace the Second Person Narrative voice, you will find a rewarding writing career opening up before you – creating always to be ignored, instruction manuals.
So, there lie both of the fates which that old charlatan, Xavior Zanathi, promised you earlier, mixed all together.
Before encountering this thread, I was unaware that First Person Narrative required this much defence. Actually, it is Second Person Narrative which needs defending. And no wonder why!
Second Person Narrative is the style of Authority.
Police, the Military, Bureaucrats, Advertisers and Teachers spend most of their working days speaking to you in the Second Person Narrative voice.
“I am telling you to go there, do this, now! Then, come back, and I will give you your next command.”
Considering the associative connotations mixed within the Second Person Narrative voice, it is no wonder that its upsets so many readers and writers, alike.
But, if you ever do change your mind, and embrace the Second Person Narrative voice, you will find a rewarding writing career opening up before you – creating always to be ignored, instruction manuals.
So, there lie both of the fates which that old charlatan, Xavior Zanathi, promised you earlier, mixed all together.
Last edited:
The reader's view
Looking at this from the reader's perspective for a moment, consider the impact on that most important person. Assume that the reader is you and is:
Female/Male*
Old/Young*
Hetero/Bi/Homo*
* delete where inapplicable
The reader will usually be cheering for one character in a story and mostly with one that would delete the choices above in the same places as the reader would. The reader is vain and likes to read about someone with whom (s)he can identify, even if that character is the villain.
In third person there are many characters from whom to choose.
In first person the reader gets lucky sometimes.
In the second person, even if the reader gets lucky, the author mostly doesn't understand how the reader reacts as a person in this situation. (I wouldn't do that - therefore vote 1 syndrome)
Why do you think more men than women enjoy Micky Spillane?
Looking at this from the reader's perspective for a moment, consider the impact on that most important person. Assume that the reader is you and is:
Female/Male*
Old/Young*
Hetero/Bi/Homo*
* delete where inapplicable
The reader will usually be cheering for one character in a story and mostly with one that would delete the choices above in the same places as the reader would. The reader is vain and likes to read about someone with whom (s)he can identify, even if that character is the villain.
In third person there are many characters from whom to choose.
In first person the reader gets lucky sometimes.
In the second person, even if the reader gets lucky, the author mostly doesn't understand how the reader reacts as a person in this situation. (I wouldn't do that - therefore vote 1 syndrome)
Why do you think more men than women enjoy Micky Spillane?
Similar threads
