Intelligent Stories that don’t insult you

[pink_silk_glove]

That sounds like EVERYTHING everyone thinks about all aspects of sex ... and just about everything else today.

"I am right, and if you don't agree with me and MY definitions and view of reality, then you're a _____" (fill in the blank with an insult).

And we can hear that attitude from more and more people on every side of every argument.

Certainly, but it's especially militant in BDSM, second obviously only to the Loving Wives fiasco. Readers judging works by their personal sense of righteousness with almost zero (and in some cases absolutely zero) regard for any aspects of quality.

 

[AG31]

"I am right, and if you don't agree with me and MY definitions and view of reality, then you're a _____" (fill in the blank with an insult).

And we can hear that attitude from more and more people on every side of every argument.

Yes. More and more chat spaces like this sound like political debates. Sigh...

 

[Lifestyle66]

Certainly, but it's especially militant in BDSM, second obviously only to the Loving Wives fiasco. Readers judging works by their personal sense of righteousness with almost zero (and in some cases absolutely zero) regard for any aspects of quality.

First, it's only a fiasco if you see it as a "glass half empty".

I prefer to see it as reaching a reader in such a way as to elicit an emotional response. It's like a director of a Steven King movie seeing an audience viewing the movie, when an audience member quickly closes their eyes and wretch in disgust. He's thinking "Gotcha!" He's not trying to make a watered-down version of a horrific scene. He WANTS that emotional reaction. And everyone has their own reaction, good or bad. But be honest, just don't ignore me.

And secondly, I've seen highly rated, shitty stories in other categories. I just can't read every story in every category to make a qualitative comparison.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

First, it's only a fiasco if you see it as a "glass half empty".

I prefer to see it as reaching a reader in such a way as to elicit an emotional response. It's like a director of a Steven King movie seeing an audience viewing the movie, when an audience member quickly closes their eyes and wretch in disgust. He's thinking "Gotcha!" He's not trying to make a watered-down version of a horrific scene. He WANTS that emotional reaction. And everyone has their own reaction, good or bad. But be honest, just don't ignore me.

And secondly, I've seen highly rated, shitty stories in other categories. I just can't read every story in every category to make a qualitative comparison.

By fiasco I really meant the behavior there, not the actual ratings and whatnot.

I'm sure that I will post in LW some time in the next few months, depending on my priorities, largely for the reasons that you state.

And as for shitty stories with high ratings, they;re everywhere of course. Now I will say that I haven't exactly read a ton of stuff here (it just takes way too much time to sift through all the crap to find something worth reading otherwise I would read more) but other than a couple of things in novels/novellas I don't recall a single story that I was actually impressed with ever having a red H.

 

[Lifestyle66]

By fiasco I really meant the behavior there, not the actual ratings and whatnot.

I'm sure that I will post in LW some time in the next few months, depending on my priorities, largely for the reasons that you state.

And as for shitty stories with high ratings, they;re everywhere of course. Now I will say that I haven't exactly read a ton of stuff here (it just takes way too much time to sift through all the crap to find something worth reading otherwise I would read more) but other than a couple of things in novels/novellas I don't recall a single story that I was actually impressed with ever having a red H.

My next LW story should be public in the next 2 -3 days "The Morning After an Epoch Night". "His wife explores an up-close and very personal POV." Tags: wife, group sex, oral sex, slut wife, swingers, lesbian, loving wife.

It will NEVER even get close to a Red-H. But I know it will get extreme reactions ... from different sides!

 

[KeithD]

Y

One critique of my stories that I just glide right over is "this isn't how BDSM works." Or "you have to do <such and such> in a dungeon." Yeah, well. But did it work for you?

There's no requirement for BDSM to be either successful or follow someone's rules in fiction writing. If you tie someone up in a story, it's bondage. You don't have to have followed some rulebook on required knots to use. If one or your characters dominates another, that's domination. They don't have to be doing it "right." If you have a character who likes to hurt someone in a sexual context, that's sadism. It's the same with the opposite, they like to be hurt in sex. Your character doesn't have to do it "right" by someone else's self-claimed idea of what is "right" for it to be BDSM in fiction.

 

[Stimtheone]

This thread made me remember that story that was written about smart people, but obviously by a dumb person. Actual smart people don't use words like "ribald" unless they want to impress a Lit Major. You want advice on smart people? They can understand even when you can't feed them something accurate and don't overcomplicate things. Fools complicate things, geniuses simplify them.

To be honest, any story that I took to the end was probably intelligent because I give up on stories that go in ways I just can't consider. Okay, I can excuse some narrative freedom here and there, but some are just going places where I want that man's writing skills removed. And I have a few favorites that were downright organic.

 

[oneagainst]

There's no requirement for BDSM to be either successful or follow someone's rules in fiction writing. If you tie someone up in a story, it's bondage. You don't have to have followed some rulebook on required knots to use. If one or your characters dominates another, that's domination. They don't have to be doing it "right." If you have a character who likes to hurt someone in a sexual context, that's sadism. It's the same with the opposite, they like to be hurt in sex. Your character doesn't have to do it "right" by someone else's self-claimed idea of what is "right" for it to be BDSM in fiction.

Absolutely agree - and it's a lot more interesting to read and write. I've suffered judgement in a number of stories because the MC didn't do it the "right" way, even after pointing out the MC knows they're messing up because it's new to them and they're learning. You get to see their character progression, the doubts and the humanising elements along the way that make a story more interesting.

On the flip side, a lot of the stories I've read adhere to formalised standards of behaviour, like reading a Victorian drawing-room drama. The characters may as well be made from cardboard. To err is human and a lot more interesting.

 

[Lady2020]

The best Lit stories I ever read was for someone I edited for. He disappeared and I got out of editing. I'd like to think he ended up publishing somewhere in the paranormal genre.

 

[Jmanchu]

I don't know. I think it's all about what you want to write and what you're looking for. Some people here just want a filthy fantasy story to get off, some people want an actual story with depth and character. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. No pun intended.

 

[jezzaz]

I don't know. I think it's all about what you want to write and what you're looking for. Some people here just want a filthy fantasy story to get off, some people want an actual story with depth and character. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. No pun intended.

This.

I have some experience in the LW area and have been lucky enough to get some red H’s in there.

I’ve read a LOT of LW, like, a lot. Honestly, it’s the only reason I got into writing in the first place - because so much of what’s in LW is just utter tripe. It’s a nasty thing to say, but it’s the reality. As Sturgeons law has it, 90% of everything is crap, and that goes doubly so for the LW genre (yep, that’s a whole 180%!). I just wondered if I could do any better.

That said, LW is really several genres in one - Cuckold, Humiliation, Betrayal, BTB (which are not the same - being betrayed doesn’t mean you have to go all Macho Revenge on the betrayers), RACC, and pure sharing stories, where the wife is shared in a consensual way.

This makes it incredibly hard to make any real generalizations that stand up, particular when it comes to scoring results.

However, there are some things that can be drawn from it. Quality does out there. If you are getting consistent red H’s, then you are producing stuff of sufficient quality that it’s way above the average. As long as it’s not cuckold stuff, you can get a good score if you are a decent writer and have a great story to tell. If it’s a cuckold story, it doesn’t matter how good a writer you are, you’ll be voted down.

Now there is a lot of BTB that gets inflated scores because unfortunately the LW does tend to be populated by a lot of angry men who enjoy women being put down or humiliated. The more they are humiliated and made to suffer, the happier they are. You only have to read some of the comments to really see this. I hesitate to use the word misogyny, but it’s an inescapable conclusion. That doesn’t mean all successfully stories in there are that kind, just those kinds of stories do get consistently higher scores that others. And there are definitely some authors who play up to that - whether they are writing to get scores - because it works - or whether they are genuinely angry at women themselves I couldn’t say.

I think there’s also the issue of stroke stories vs an actual story with plot. I literally just got taken to task in another thread on this forum that one of my stories only had a couple of paragraphs of sex in them. Which is fair enough - this forum is called LitEROTICA after all - but still, I do my best to create a complete story with believable characters, dialog and a plot. It’s a legitimate gripe on the part of the person complaining, but I honestly have gotten to the point where the actual graphic sex is getting harder and harder to write and less and less interesting as a writer, personally There’s only so many Throbbing Members and gushing vaginas I can describe, you know?

Sex, for me, is now just an addition to the story, not the focus of it. Which probably means I’m getting less and less in touch with what Lit readers want, but that’s my evolution.

I look at my stuff now as Stories that may have a bit of smut in them, than writing Smut Stories. At some point I’m probably going to have to step away from this, since I’m getting less and less interested in what the root of what this site is all about. Or maybe it’s better put that that my direction as an author is less and less what the readership here wants.

I dunno. It’s all hard and getting harder to know where best to spend my time.

 

[oneagainst]

There’s only so many Throbbing Members and gushing vaginas I can describe, you know?

Sex, for me, is now just an addition to the story, not the focus of it. Which probably means I’m getting less and less in touch with what Lit readers want, but that’s my evolution.

I look at my stuff now as Stories that may have a bit of smut in them, than writing Smut Stories. At some point I’m probably going to have to step away from this, since I’m getting less and less interested in what the root of what this site is all about. Or maybe it’s better put that that my direction as an author is less and less what the readership here wants.

I dunno. It’s all hard and getting harder to know where best to spend my time.

I can relate to this. Just finished my last story, and it might actually be my last here, but it's been the best fun to write, covering all the bases I wanted to cover. I can leave people to their strokers and at least say job done.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

it might actually be my last here

 

[oneagainst]

View attachment 2316497

Don't be so dramatic! But, I guess what I'm saying is that there's a point you have other things you're writing that don't fit well on Lit, and not because it's banned here, but that it's more complex in terms of plot and characters and much lighter on the erotica side.

So, there's a natural point where I'll just let the Lit pipeline empty out as I work on mainstream stuff, stories that you can put in front of family. Saying that though, the pipeline stretches out all year and ends on something I'm proud of that kicks off next week in Pink Orchid. After that, I'll just see where the bunnies take me.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

there's a point you have other things you're writing that don't fit well on Lit

Yeah, that's fair. I have a story myself where I'm basically shoehorning in a sex scene. I hope you'll let us know where you go next.

 

[LadyLibido]

Certainly one of the most skilled writers I've seen on this site is NYakovlevna. The Partisan Years is a very well written, to the point that it extremely raw in its subject matter that made it difficult to read, for me, because everything feels so naturalistic and real.

As for searching, no, there really is no way to guarantee what you're looking for will show up with any sort of keyword. Tags for themes or style of writing isn't really a thing, and as I'm sure has been made clear in the conversation, the threshold for what one considers 'realistic' or 'sensible' is going to vary from person to person, and this goes for a whole host of things. This means even if it were commonplace for tags related to how fantastical or realistic something is, it still wouldn't be a good indication that it meets the criteria you're looking for. Matters of taste can't really be agreed upon, so finding what you want in that regard will always be difficult, especially if what you want is outside 'the norm'. (Something that I am all too familiar with...)

And something funny about non-erotic work on Literotica. I have had more readers/interaction with my non-erotic original work on Literotica, than I have on AO3, by a significant margin. So I would say it's worth submitting non-erotic works to Literotica, anyway.