Judge Engoron's $355 Million Fine Against Donald Trump May Have Far-Reaching Consequences

[Bn2f]

dmallord said:
Do you know if Turley and Calabresi will file amicus curiae documents in Trump's appeal? I'd be interested in those documents.

dmallord is free to clarify his own words but my interpretation of this is and will be that this went clear over the head of RG (cos he’s an idiot) and that these two legal jerk offs should’ve been trump’s hired attorneys or could have easily given their advice pro bono pre trial.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Kinda like a judge declaring someone guilty of fraud without a trial, eh?

Trump had a trial,and the Judge found him guilty of lying on legal financial documents. ( lol such stupid lies, such as lying about the square footage of an apartment for fuck sakes)

This case is kind of like when you get caught speeding, you dispute that and go to court.The cop shows the Judge the evidence, the radar reading, and you get convicted.

Trump had a trial to show why he should not have a financial penalty assigned for being found guilty of lying on financial reports and lost. It's really that simple. If he had kept his mouth shut, let his lawyers handle it, admitted guilt and took ownership, his fine would have been minimal.
He didn't and got what you get when you fuck around with the court system.

See above and educate yourself on what has actually happened here.

LOL try looking at this from a point where you have no emotional attachment to the subject.

Play again???

 

[TastySuckToy]

Trump had a trial,

No, he didn't. The judge summarily ruled he was guilty of fraud. There was no trial for that ruling.

and the Judge found him guilty of lying on legal financial documents.

That was only after the previous unilateral without trial ruling the judge made, upon which the judge based his claim of fraud on documents.

The judge is literally using his own ruling as evidence of fraud.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

No, he didn't. The judge summarily ruled he was guilty of fraud. There was no trial for that ruling.

Again, just like a speeding ticket, the Judge viewed the evidence, and ruled, that is a trial.

That was only after the previous unilateral without trial ruling the judge made, upon which the judge based his claim of fraud on documents.

Right just like a speeding ticket, sorry you don't like that, but that is the way it works.

The judge is literally using his own ruling as evidence of fraud.

No he is using the documents Trump submitted, and signed as being factual. He stated his apartment as being 30,000 sq ft,when it isn't even 20,000, as just one example of hundreds. How much do you want to suck Trump's cock? Lots, or just often?

Play again.

 

[schism666]

another far reaching consequence.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Again, just like a speeding ticket, the Judge viewed the evidence, and ruled, that is a trial.

False.

In the United States, including New York state, the legal principle of due process is enshrined in the Constitution, specifically in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Due process guarantees individuals the right to a fair and impartial trial before they can be deprived of life, liberty, or property. This fundamental principle requires that individuals accused of crimes be given notice and an opportunity to be heard in a court of law.

Under the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution, "No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." Similarly, the Fourteenth Amendment extends this protection to the states, stating that no state shall "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

In New York state, the right to due process is further codified in the New York Constitution. Article I, Section 6 of the New York Constitution guarantees that "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law." This provision mirrors the protections provided by the federal Constitution.

Moreover, the New York Criminal Procedure Law outlines the procedural safeguards that must be followed in criminal cases. For instance, Article 1.20 of the New York Criminal Procedure Law defines a criminal action as "a prosecution of a person for a crime." It further establishes that a person accused of a crime is entitled to certain rights, including the right to a trial by jury and the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Given these constitutional and statutory provisions, a judge cannot summarily rule someone guilty of fraud without a trial because doing so would violate the accused individual's right to due process. Instead, the accused must be afforded the opportunity to present a defense, confront witnesses, and challenge the evidence against them in a court of law. Only after a fair trial, where the prosecution proves the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, can a judge or jury render a verdict of guilt.

None of that was abided by when the judge just declared Trump guilty of fraud.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

False.

This is where I stopped reading your post.

Remember when you posted that...I quit reading at False.

He received Due Process. If he hadn't he would have been able to appeal on those grounds. He hasn't, why?

Play again?

 

[YDB95]

What can happen to thee can happen to me.

Well, you've got us there. Any random person on the street could - theoretically - lie repeatedly about the size and value of their Manhattan real estate in order to secure enormous loans at favorable rates. The catch is, if you or I did what Trump did, the banks would laugh us out of the room. Mind you, they should have done the same to Trump, but that's beside the point.

An interestingly odd way to state that you too harbor hopes of fucking a pornstar, but won’t ever.

That's Trump's appeal to the deplorables in a nutshell: he acts like they would if they had money.

In the United States, including New York state, the legal principle of due process is enshrined in the Constitution, specifically in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Due process guarantees individuals the right to a fair and impartial trial before they can be deprived of life, liberty, or property. This fundamental principle requires that individuals accused of crimes be given notice and an opportunity to be heard in a court of law.

If your point is that Trump's right to the above was violated because he didn't have a jury trial, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that he had that option and waived it. (Or more likely, the right-wing "journalist" whose work you're cribbing here failed to mention it because s/he knew what people like you want to hear.)

 

[dmallord]

Kinda like a judge declaring someone guilty of fraud without a trial, eh?

See above and educate yourself on what has actually happened here.

To help clarify your perception that a trial by jury versus trial by judge was available, please note this reflects and also applies to #131 and #185 comments above:

"POLITICS

Judge in Trump's New York fraud trial explains why there's no jury​

By Graham Kates
October 11, 2023 / 3:51 PM EDT / CBS News

Former President Donald Trump did not request a jury for his New York civil fraud trial, but even if he had asked for one, the answer would've been "no," a judge said Wednesday.

Judge Arthur Engoron addressed an issue that had been the subject of speculation on social media and by Trump himself, saying it "keeps coming up," even though he doesn't "read the papers or go online to read about" the trial.

Engoron is presiding over the bench trial of a $250 million lawsuit filed in 2022 by New York Attorney General Letitia James, in which she accused Trump, two of his sons, their company and other executives of years of widespread fraud. Engoron said that in paperwork certifying that the case was ready for trial, James' office checked a box suggesting it be a non-jury proceeding.

Trump's team had 15 days to oppose that, but did not, Engoron said, because there was no point in doing so.

"It would not have helped to make a motion. Nobody forgot to check off a box," Engoron said.

"Equitable" versus "legal" remedy​

New York Justice Arthur Engoron, during the civil fraud trial of former President Donald Trump, on Tuesday, Oct. 3, 2023.SHANNON STAPLETON/POOL PHOTO VIA AP


Engoron said the punishment being sought by the state is an "equitable" remedy, as opposed to a "legal" remedy.

A legal remedy is an award for damages, which can be determined by a jury. Earlier this year, a federal jury awarded the writer E. Jean Carroll $5 million in damages after finding Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation. The damages were not an amount Trump took from her, but rather a sum the jury concluded might remedy the emotional, physical and reputational harm Trump had caused.

In the ongoing New York fraud case, the state is seeking $250 million in disgorgement, a kind of equitable remedy that is a clawback of ill-gotten gains — the amount of benefit that the state says Trump and the co-defendants personally received from the alleged fraud. Authorities cannot ask a jury to make that kind of calculation.

"That leaves it up to the judge," Engoron said."

So, @TastySuckToy, the resolution of this matter was not one that a jury could determine - as an 'equitable' remedy - it falls to a judge, not a jury, to make the determination.

I hope this helps you understand the legal recouse in this situation better.

 

[schism666]

What can happen to thee can happen to me.

i hope all criminals are treated like trump is being treated. don't you?

 

[Lazaran]

i hope all criminals are treated like trump is being treated. don't you?

The "motto" JoeSodaPop lives by (or did live by back when America was "great"):

“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

So no, conservatives, like JoeSodaPop, definitely do NOT want all criminals to be treated like the corrupt orange traitor is currently being treated - just "those" criminals.



JoeSodaPop

 

[dmallord]

As we speak I have no knowledge of what their plans are going forward. Calabresi was part of the Ed Meese amicus curiae filed in the SCOTUS against the legality of Jack Smith's appointment by Garland. That one is well-constructed and interesting. Here is a link to that brief:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-624/293864/20231220140217967_US v. Trump amicus final.pdf

I read the amicus pdf twice. It was a headache and a half for someone without a Constitutional legal background [Me] and would probably be so for someone with a legal background. [I took six courses of Business Law in the 70s - a whole different animal.]

Essentially, Jack Smith, they conclude, was not a legitimate appointee because, as a private citizen, he was not appointed by the President nor confirmed by the Senate. That was my takeaway from that dense submission. I could have that wrong, but I did get a chuckle at the conclusion - that was legal humor in a suit mentioning Taylor Swift and Jeff Besos having as much authority as Jack Smith.

Thanks @Rightguide for a refresher on what Tylenol doesn't help ease. If only Donald Trump were not such a headache and pain in the @ss, America would be in a better place.

 

[Rightguide]

The dominoes are beginning to fall in NYC:

REAL ESTATE

Published February 21, 2024 9:54am EST

Real estate investor will 'immediately discontinue' working in NYC over Trump verdict, eyeing Florida, Texas​

US businesses fleeing Empire State over alleged legal and regulation politicization​

By Kristen Altus FOXBusiness

Some nationwide real estate investors, like Cardone Capital’s Grant Cardone, have started telling their teams to pack their bags and leave New York after the verdict in former President Trump’s fraud trial.

"We thought this year was the opportunity to come into Chicago, California and New York City. I've been waiting for 40 years now to invest in that marketplace. I was completely confident this was the year to come," Cardone told Steve Doocy on "FOX & Friends" on Wednesday. "And when that ruling happened, it was like, pencils down. Don't touch it. Don't go there."

The business leader gained recent recognition after he posted on X that his firm would "immediately discontinue" all underwriting on New York City real estate to focus on other markets like Texas and Florida.

Cardone further claimed that New York has risks "that outweigh the opportunities" in terms of property value — and the blue state has shown its politicization when it comes to doing business.

More here: https://www.foxbusiness.com/real-es...tinue-working-nyc-trump-verdict-florida-texas

Coming on the heels of Kevin O'Leary doing the same and calling NY a "loser state" Cardone warns:

"We were going to put $1 billion in New York City this year. We were going to put $1 billion in Chicago and maybe another billion in Los Angeles. And we won't touch any of them now," he said. "Texas, Florida, Arizona: go hard, go big and go long."

It's obvious that Judge Engoron has signaled to the financial markets what the Soviet-like Blue States are capable of and they're having none of it.

 

[TastySuckToy]

It's obvious that Judge Engoron has signaled to the financial markets what the Soviet-like Blue States are capable of and they're having none of it.

The complete financial devestation of New York may be a message that is badly needed.

 

[Rightguide]

I read the amicus pdf twice. It was a headache and a half for someone without a Constitutional legal background [Me] and would probably be so for someone with a legal background. [I took six courses of Business Law in the 70s - a whole different animal.]

Essentially, Jack Smith, they conclude, was not a legitimate appointee because, as a private citizen, he was not appointed by the President nor confirmed by the Senate. That was my takeaway from that dense submission. I could have that wrong, but I did get a chuckle at the conclusion - that was legal humor in a suit mentioning Taylor Swift and Jeff Besos having as much authority as Jack Smith.

Thanks @Rightguide for a refresher on what Tylenol doesn't help ease. If only Donald Trump were not such a headache and pain in the @ss, America would be in a better place.

The bottom line is he was appointed in violation of federal law. Federal statutory law and Constitutional jurisprudence are complex but they are what they are and we all must abide by them regardless of political party.

 

[ll74]

Lol...you won't see any evidence of a "mass Exodus" for quite a while.... All these initial reports are just Trump supporters blovoating for their idol

 

[Rightguide]

To help clarify your perception that a trial by jury versus trial by judge was available, please note this reflects and also applies to #131 and #185 comments above:

"POLITICS

Judge in Trump's New York fraud trial explains why there's no jury​

By Graham Kates
October 11, 2023 / 3:51 PM EDT / CBS News

Former President Donald Trump did not request a jury for his New York civil fraud trial, but even if he had asked for one, the answer would've been "no," a judge said Wednesday.

Judge Arthur Engoron addressed an issue that had been the subject of speculation on social media and by Trump himself, saying it "keeps coming up," even though he doesn't "read the papers or go online to read about" the trial.

Engoron is presiding over the bench trial of a $250 million lawsuit filed in 2022 by New York Attorney General Letitia James, in which she accused Trump, two of his sons, their company and other executives of years of widespread fraud. Engoron said that in paperwork certifying that the case was ready for trial, James' office checked a box suggesting it be a non-jury proceeding.

Trump's team had 15 days to oppose that, but did not, Engoron said, because there was no point in doing so.

"It would not have helped to make a motion. Nobody forgot to check off a box," Engoron said.

"Equitable" versus "legal" remedy​

New York Justice Arthur Engoron, during the civil fraud trial of former President Donald Trump, on Tuesday, Oct. 3, 2023.SHANNON STAPLETON/POOL PHOTO VIA AP


Engoron said the punishment being sought by the state is an "equitable" remedy, as opposed to a "legal" remedy.

A legal remedy is an award for damages, which can be determined by a jury. Earlier this year, a federal jury awarded the writer E. Jean Carroll $5 million in damages after finding Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation. The damages were not an amount Trump took from her, but rather a sum the jury concluded might remedy the emotional, physical and reputational harm Trump had caused.

In the ongoing New York fraud case, the state is seeking $250 million in disgorgement, a kind of equitable remedy that is a clawback of ill-gotten gains — the amount of benefit that the state says Trump and the co-defendants personally received from the alleged fraud. Authorities cannot ask a jury to make that kind of calculation.

"That leaves it up to the judge," Engoron said."

So, @TastySuckToy, the resolution of this matter was not one that a jury could determine - as an 'equitable' remedy - it falls to a judge, not a jury, to make the determination.

I hope this helps you understand the legal recouse in this situation better.

It helps me understand the flawed legal reasoning of a hate-filled committed leftist who has stepped outside the bounds of the laws of NY while trampling the sanctity of the 8th Amendment of the Constitution to crush an innocent man, seize his wealth for the state, and harm his family. All to help the Democrat party win the next election. There was no fraud, there was no victim, there were no "ill-gotten gains.".

 

[HisArpy]

No, he didn't. The judge summarily ruled he was guilty of fraud. There was no trial for that ruling.

That was only after the previous unilateral without trial ruling the judge made, upon which the judge based his claim of fraud on documents.

The judge is literally using his own ruling as evidence of fraud.

It'd be really interesting if someone who is defending Engoron's decision were to post the definition of fraud and see if that definition fits the facts...

 

[TastySuckToy]

It'd be really interesting if someone who is defending Engoron's decision were to post the definition of fraud and see if that definition fits the facts...

It's still mind boggling that people here don't grasp the concept that people and businesses can set the value/price of any asset at any level arbitrarily.

A business can advertise a desk stapler for sale at a billion dollars if they want to. They'll never get an offer or interest in it (assuming inflation doesn't become nightmarish), but anyone can claim any arbitrary value for any asset they wish.

This is common practice across sales and transactions at every level. Sellers offer high (for bigger profit), buyers bid low(for bigger savings), and when a common value is agreed upon, the transaction takes place.

This is ground level simplistic economics and people here don't grasp it whatsoever. It's unreal.

 

[Rick345]

The banks decide what interest they will and should charge, not courts. If the banks thought they were cheated or their mutual agreements were not met, they would've taken Trump to court.

Banks base their rates on assets used to secure the loan, Trump falsified the documents related to his declaration of assets. Which in the state of New York is considered theft by scheme to defraud. Were Trump got into hot water is on the bottom of tax returns is a statement which states, "Are the facts and figures you have provided on this form to the best of your knowledge accurate and complete."

 

[Rightguide]

The complete financial devestation of New York may be a message that is badly needed.

I agree. It's a shame, good people are living in New York, but they suffer under a system of their creation. They must own the consequences.

 

[HisArpy]

Banks base their rates on assets used to secure the loan, Trump falsified the documents related to his declaration of assets. Which in the state of New York is considered theft by scheme to defraud.

Lol, no.

 

[Rightguide]

Lol...you won't see any evidence of a "mass Exodus" for quite a while.... All these initial reports are just Trump supporters blovoating for their idol

Half a million left in 2022. More will follow, but not to worry Joe is bringing in Third World replacements to ensure the continued decline of the city.

 

[Rightguide]

Banks base their rates on assets used to secure the loan, Trump falsified the documents related to his declaration of assets. Which in the state of New York is considered theft by scheme to defraud.

 

[HisArpy]

It's still mind boggling that people here don't grasp the concept that people and businesses can set the value/price of any asset at any level arbitrarily.

A business can advertise a desk stapler for sale at a billion dollars if they want to. They'll never get an offer or interest in it (assuming inflation doesn't become nightmarish), but anyone can claim any arbitrary value for any asset they wish.

This is common practice across sales and transactions at every level. Sellers offer high (for bigger profit), buyers bid low(for bigger savings), and when a common value is agreed upon, the transaction takes place.

This is ground level simplistic economics and people here don't grasp it whatsoever. It's unreal.

Fraud is:

A knowingly false statement,
Of a material fact,
Which is made to another,
With the intent to induce reliance upon the false statement,
and the other party did so rely upon the false statement.

https://thelawdictionary.org/fraud/

• 1. Was the valuation of the property "knowingly false"? Or was it opinion?
• 2. Was the valuation a "material fact"?
• 3. Was the valuation made to another?
• 4. Was the intent of the valuation to induce the bank to rely on the false statement to their detriment?
• 5. Did the bank so rely on the valuation?

All of the above questions must be answered by "yes" for there to be fraud. Failure to answer any of the above questions with "yes" means that the definition of fraud is not fulfilled (ie there is no fraud).