Judge Engoron's $355 Million Fine Against Donald Trump May Have Far-Reaching Consequences

[ll74]

Half a million left in 2022. More will follow, but not to worry Joe is bringing in Third World replacements to ensure the continued decline of the city.

Joe didn't do this.

B
D
S

 

[stxjimmy]

The bottom line is he was appointed in violation of federal law. Federal statutory law and Constitutional jurisprudence are complex but they are what they are and we all must abide by them regardless of political party.

Like everyone did on 6/1 and it’s run up and aftermath?

 

[TastySuckToy]

There's other factors at play as well. The banks are businesses, and like any other business, they will compete with other businesses for customers. Offering favourably loans and loan rates would be one of many ways a business, like a bank, would compete to obtain Trump's business and make themselves a lot of profit. Which is exactly what they did.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

The dominoes are beginning to fall in NYC:

*snip*

You've been doomcasting the "Fall of NYC" by aggregating Chicken Little articles and op-eds and such at least twice a month every year, for years.

It ain't gonna happen, homeslice. Not in your lifetime, at least. 9/11 didn't kill it. Covid didn't kill it. The city's actual worst periods ever were during the '70s and it survived those pitfalls. People who are still living from those years can tell you how bad it was then.

Most wealthy people who have biz here never actually quit the city. At best they just shift things around. The ones who aren't here that want to be here and don't have generational ties to the city still come and do their best to exploit opportunity. You will never know or comprehend how deep and extensive the roots of the wealthy are here.

I know this because unlike you I live here and I see first-hand what's changed, what's being built and what's being destroyed to be replaced for the accommodation of the wealthy. Doesn't always work out or doesn't mean that it's good for the citizens as a whole, it's just the never-ending cycle of entrenched capitalism that is beyond Cheeto's decades of fuckery games coming home to roost in the here and now. Which is all on his ass and nobody else's and that's why you gold-plated sneaker fanbois are screaming.

Snake oil salesmen selling disaster porn stories online need to eat, too. Good for them that there'll always be people like you to suck up their grift like a bowl of noodles.

 

[YDB95]

This is ground level simplistic economics and people here don't grasp it whatsoever. It's unreal.

No, it is not just simple economics. There are legal issues involved, and it's not even really in dispute at this point that Trump violated those laws by lying about the size and value of his properties. What you are describing might be applicable in a case of perfect competition, but that doesn't exist in the real world and certainly not in this case.

 

[HisArpy]

No, it is not just simple economics. There are legal issues involved, and it's not even really in dispute at this point that Trump violated those laws by lying about the size and value of his properties. What you are describing might be applicable in a case of perfect competition, but that doesn't exist in the real world and certainly not in this case.

Apparently you've never heard of horse trading...

 

[dmallord]

Apparently you've never heard of horse trading...

My imaginary horse is worth more than Trump's Mar-a-Logo perceived value. That you can be sure of since I have a horse expert's verbal appraisal of it in a telephone call to Georgia. I'll take Trump's 1.8 million dollars in trade for my extremely valuable horse and let Trump ride out into the sunset with it - even give him the golden saddle I've ordered for it - from China - and throw in a pair of golden sneakers, sized twelve, so he gets a good sendoff.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Fraud is:

A knowingly false statement,
Of a material fact,
Which is made to another,
With the intent to induce reliance upon the false statement,
and the other party did so rely upon the false statement.

https://thelawdictionary.org/fraud/

• 1. Was the valuation of the property "knowingly false"? Or was it opinion?
• 2. Was the valuation a "material fact"?
• 3. Was the valuation made to another?
• 4. Was the intent of the valuation to induce the bank to rely on the false statement to their detriment?
• 5. Did the bank so rely on the valuation?

All of the above questions must be answered by "yes" for there to be fraud. Failure to answer any of the above questions with "yes" means that the definition of fraud is not fulfilled (ie there is no fraud).

Was the apartment 19,200 sqft or 30,000 sqft. Well Trump affirmed it was 30,000 sqft, knowing full well it was only 19,200. Which means this particular statement is fraud,by your own measure. That is just one of hundreds of frauds Trump perpetrated..

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Trump's business and make themselves a lot of profit. Which is exactly what they did.

But not as much profit as they should have. Trump lied to get that savings in interest from those banks.

What's the interest difference on $100,000,000.00 loan when it is borrowed out at 2.3456% vs 4.3456%....Think about it for a moment and decide.

 

[stxjimmy]

Apparently you've never heard of horse trading...

As in “a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse” ?

 

[Erosfan]

Because a legal precendent has been set, whereas a perfectly legal and mutually satisfactory agreement is created and concluded where both parties are happy, but years later a judge can unilaterally and without trial declare a party guilty of victimless fraud and issue hundreds of millions worth of fines.

Exactly

 

[Lazaran]

Was the apartment 19,200 sqft or 30,000 sqft. Well Trump affirmed it was 30,000 sqft, knowing full well it was only 19,200. Which means this particular statement is fraud,by your own measure. That is just one of hundreds of frauds Trump perpetrated..

Hate to niggle, but the apartment was about 11,000 sq. ft., so the corrupt orange traitor nearly tripled the sq. ft.

*nods*

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Hate to niggle, but the apartment was about 11,000 sq. ft., so the corrupt orange traitor nearly tripled the sq. ft.

*nods*

Really? I was going by memory. Doesn't matter much, like if he claimed 23,000 and it was 20,000 that could be a error, but not by either of our numbers, that is outright fraud.

 

[Lazaran]

Really? I was going by memory. Doesn't matter much, like if he claimed 23,000 and it was 20,000 that could be a error, but not by either of our numbers, that is outright fraud.

True, but most of the justification for bringing this case, and for Judge Engoron’s ruling (and subsequent penalties), is based on the scope / scale of the fraud.

Size definitely matters when it comes to prosecuting fraud.

*nods*

 

[bijedi]

Fraud is:

A knowingly false statement,
Of a material fact,
Which is made to another,
With the intent to induce reliance upon the false statement,
and the other party did so rely upon the false statement.

https://thelawdictionary.org/fraud/

• 1. Was the valuation of the property "knowingly false"? Or was it opinion?

We have sworn testimony that Trump would give a value he wanted and his lawyers would manipulate the underlying asset values to arrive at that value. I would say that constitutes 'knowingly false'

• 2. Was the valuation a "material fact"?

I would say that the stated value of a property or assert is a material fact

• 3. Was the valuation made to another?

Unquestionably yes

• 4. Was the intent of the valuation to induce the bank to rely on the false statement to their detriment?

I feel pretty comfortable this is a yes.

• 5. Did the bank so rely on the valuation?

By their own statements, yes.

All of the above questions must be answered by "yes" for there to be fraud. Failure to answer any of the above questions with "yes" means that the definition of fraud is not fulfilled (ie there is no fraud).

I would say the evidence weighs pretty heavily on the side of fraud.

 

[Rick345]

Lol, no.

New York State
CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE K, ARTICLE 175
§ 175.10 Falsifying business records in the first degree
A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the first degree
when he commits the crime of falsifying business records in the second
degree, and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit
another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.

Falsifying business records in the first degree is a class E felony.
§ 175.05 Falsifying business records in the second degree.

A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the second degree
when, with intent to defraud, he:

1. Makes or causes a false entry in the business records of an
enterprise; or

2. Alters, erases, obliterates, deletes, removes or destroys a true
entry in the business records of an enterprise; or

3. Omits to make a true entry in the business records of an enterprise
in violation of a duty to do so which he knows to be imposed upon him by
law or by the nature of his position; or

4. Prevents the making of a true entry or causes the omission thereof
in the business records of an enterprise.

Falsifying business records in the second degree is a class A
misdemeanor.

Did Trump falsify business records why yes he did.. In documents he stated 725 Trump Tower has 74 stories it has 58 stories.. Trump estimated the size of the apartment at 30,000 sq ft (2,800 m2), with a valuation of $100 million. The property records for the apartment later showed that it was 11,000 sq ft (1,000 m2) in size, with an estimated value of $65 million.

If you are going to lie about stuff don't lie about stuff that is on file with the city and can be easily checked with a calculator. The judge simply counted the floors of Trump Tower and checked the building permits for the square footage of Trump's apartment.. If you are going to lie make it reasonable if the sq footage is 11K you might get away with 11.5k but 30K nay..

 

[HisArpy]

New York State
CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE K, ARTICLE 175
§ 175.10 Falsifying business records in the first degree
A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the first degree
when he commits the crime of falsifying business records in the second
degree, and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit
another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.

Falsifying business records in the first degree is a class E felony.
§ 175.05 Falsifying business records in the second degree.

A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the second degree
when, with intent to defraud, he:

1. Makes or causes a false entry in the business records of an
enterprise; or

2. Alters, erases, obliterates, deletes, removes or destroys a true
entry in the business records of an enterprise; or

3. Omits to make a true entry in the business records of an enterprise
in violation of a duty to do so which he knows to be imposed upon him by
law or by the nature of his position; or

4. Prevents the making of a true entry or causes the omission thereof
in the business records of an enterprise.

Falsifying business records in the second degree is a class A
misdemeanor.

Did Trump falsify business records why yes he did.. In documents he stated 725 Trump Tower has 74 stories it has 58 stories.. Trump estimated the size of the apartment at 30,000 sq ft (2,800 m2), with a valuation of $100 million. The property records for the apartment later showed that it was 11,000 sq ft (1,000 m2) in size, with an estimated value of $65 million.

If you are going to lie about stuff don't lie about stuff that is on file with the city and can be easily checked with a calculator. The judge simply counted the floors of Trump Tower and checked the building permits for the square footage of Trump's apartment.. If you are going to lie make it reasonable if the sq footage is 11K you might get away with 11.5k but 30K nay..

Lol, no...

 

[HisArpy]

We have sworn testimony that Trump would give a value he wanted and his lawyers would manipulate the underlying asset values to arrive at that value. I would say that constitutes 'knowingly false'

I would say that the stated value of a property or assert is a material fact

Unquestionably yes

I feel pretty comfortable this is a yes.

By their own statements, yes.


I would say the evidence weighs pretty heavily on the side of fraud.

Lol. Not even close.

SWORN TESTIMONY from several witnesses is that the banks did their own appraisal of the property.

Strange how that defeats the actual reliance part in #5.

You see it really comes down to the fact that you have no real understanding of how things work in the real world. You seem to think that if YOU believe your car is worth 10,000 and the bank believes it's only worth 7500, you're good. But if TRUMP believes his property is worth 350 million, based on the values of other properties in the neighborhood, and the bank believes it's only worth 300 million and the judge believes it's only worth 17 million, TRUMP committed fraud.

That's not hows it works. Because if that's how it actually does work then EVERY celebrity with sneakers bearing his name or brand is in trouble. And yet they aren't...


Why is that?

 

[HisArpy]

My imaginary horse is worth more than Trump's Mar-a-Logo perceived value. That you can be sure of since I have a horse expert's verbal appraisal of it in a telephone call to Georgia. I'll take Trump's 1.8 million dollars in trade for my extremely valuable horse and let Trump ride out into the sunset with it - even give him the golden saddle I've ordered for it - from China - and throw in a pair of golden sneakers, sized twelve, so he gets a good sendoff.

So if you're good to go because no fraud on your part in how you value your property, then Trump is the same, right?

 

[TandT69]

Thats ok, hes inline to increase his net worth between 4 and 10 billion. If Truth Social hits Wall Street in the next few weeks, which it will, its much closer to 10 billion. So the sheep calling him an idiot, are in fact brain dead themselves! Hes just exposing the corrupt judicial system in this country showing the people that this isnt the way this country's judicial system is gonna run. The more these corrupt communists drag him into court, the more corruption will be exposed! It is so fun to watch, it really is!

 

[HisArpy]

Thats ok, hes inline to increase his net worth between 4 and 10 billion. If Truth Social hits Wall Street in the next few weeks, which it will, its much closer to 10 billion. So the sheep calling him an idiot, are in fact brain dead themselves! Hes just exposing the corrupt judicial system in this country showing the people that this isnt the way this country's judicial system is gonna run. The more these corrupt communists drag him into court, the more corruption will be exposed! It is so fun to watch, it really is!

That he exposed them is why they hate him so much.

 

[Rightguide]

Thats ok, hes inline to increase his net worth between 4 and 10 billion. If Truth Social hits Wall Street in the next few weeks, which it will, its much closer to 10 billion. So the sheep calling him an idiot, are in fact brain dead themselves! Hes just exposing the corrupt judicial system in this country showing the people that this isnt the way this country's judicial system is gonna run. The more these corrupt communists drag him into court, the more corruption will be exposed! It is so fun to watch, it really is!

The court also imposed a 9 percent interest rate on the amount as well. As I said already this is a hold-up.

 

[Rightguide]

From Judge Andrew P. Napolitano:

"The government created a phantom harm by arguing to the court that Trump's corporation was not fully accurate in its loan applications and thus was charged a lower interest rate on the loans than it should have been charged had it been accurate; and thus it earned more income on its use of the money it borrowed than would have been the case had it scrupulously reported the value of its pledged assets; and thus — somehow — the government ought to be able to confiscate the excess income plus interest.

This, of course, defies the no-damages-without-breach-of-a-duty principle and no-damages-without-caused-harm principle that have been the bedrock of American tort law. It also redefines fraud.

The government told the court that Trump defrauded his lenders by inaccurately stating his assets. If you borrow $100 million from a bank and pledge as security a building worth $2 billion, you will get more favorable loan terms — a lower interest rate — than if you pledged as security a building worth $1 billion. But Trump's banks did their own due diligence on the value of the assets he pledged, and they told the court that they were satisfied with Trump's valuations.

The lenders also told the court that Trump paid back every dime they loaned to him with interest. And the banks told the court that Trump was such a good customer, they'd gladly lend to him again."

The entire article here for those who are not fluent in the law:https://www.creators.com/read/judge-napolitano/02/24/donald-trump-and-government-theft

 

[ll74]

From Judge Andrew P. Napolitano:

"The government created a phantom harm by arguing to the court that Trump's corporation was not fully accurate in its loan applications and thus was charged a lower interest rate on the loans than it should have been charged had it been accurate; and thus it earned more income on its use of the money it borrowed than would have been the case had it scrupulously reported the value of its pledged assets; and thus — somehow — the government ought to be able to confiscate the excess income plus interest.

This, of course, defies the no-damages-without-breach-of-a-duty principle and no-damages-without-caused-harm principle that have been the bedrock of American tort law. It also redefines fraud.

The government told the court that Trump defrauded his lenders by inaccurately stating his assets. If you borrow $100 million from a bank and pledge as security a building worth $2 billion, you will get more favorable loan terms — a lower interest rate — than if you pledged as security a building worth $1 billion. But Trump's banks did their own due diligence on the value of the assets he pledged, and they told the court that they were satisfied with Trump's valuations.

The lenders also told the court that Trump paid back every dime they loaned to him with interest. And the banks told the court that Trump was such a good customer, they'd gladly lend to him again."

The entire article here for those who are not fluent in the law:https://www.creators.com/read/judge-napolitano/02/24/donald-trump-and-government-theft

*Former judge. 30 years ago

 

[TastySuckToy]

*Former judge. 30 years ago

Explain how that has anything to do with the validity of said judge's argument.