'Man'imal- Where to draw the line?

[Netzach]

I admit that I don't get it. Maybe it's just the country bumpkin in me who's not accustomed to these kinds of thinking. I don't know. All I do know is that animals in the wild aren't going to all hold hands and sing kumbaya. I sort of resent the implications made about those of us who don't anthropomorphize to some huge degree, but, again, I didn't grow up that way, so I guess that's why it doesn't make sense to me.

I also have anthropomorphizing problems. I'm saying that because your stallion will go at a bucket it's a leap of logic to think that he's not going to kick the person trying to suck his cock to death sometime later.

 

[Marquis]

This does beg the question, as Caitlynne brought up, "is it BDSM?"

No.

To me "anything I may possibly have to consider in the scope of my D/s or M/s relationship" is not especially BDSM, because the whole universe of possibility then has to be absorbed into this community.

It's a sidenote. When someone posts "ENEMAS" we often see it moved or snide "and what does THAT have to do with BDSM?" comments.

But someone posts "ANIMALS" and we get this debate again.

Yeah, I think this is worth mentioning as well.

I do think it is ok for there to be some unity among groups of sexual deviants, but I also think it's ok to say "BDSM = ok, Bestiality = not ok"

Unity, but not solidarity perhaps?

I'm not sure what I'm saying here, but I think you know what I'm talking about (and probably can say it better for me).

This line Marquis...she is a beautiful one, no?

Not sure what you're referring to here twysted, care to explain?

 

[BiBunny]

I am not talking about donkeys and horses, or various kinds of birds although are there in fact wild mules or is that a human intervention?

I don't think you'll see lizards doing it with birds.

The only "real" wild horses* left in the world are the Przewalski Horses. I have no idea if horses would copulate with donkeys in the wild or not, but Przewalski Horses live in Northern Asia (where there aren't wild donkeys, I'm thinking). Though some people believe that Prezewalski Horses are a hybrid themselves.

*The rest of the "wild" horses are actually descendants of released or escaped domesticated horses. For example, the mustangs in the American West are descendants of the horses that the Spanish brought over.

 

[HottieMama]

Yeah, I think this is worth mentioning as well.

I do think it is ok for there to be some unity among groups of sexual deviants, but I also think it's ok to say "BDSM = ok, Bestiality = not ok"

Unity, but not solidarity perhaps?

I'm not sure what I'm saying here, but I think you know what I'm talking about (and probably can say it better for me).

I think this just MAY be the first post of yours that I completely agree with. I respect another's right to a particular kink, as long as you respect my right to think it's pretty nasty.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm more focused on what it says about the human, than making a claim about the animal. Echoing Netz's thoughts that people don't think about consequences. I have a similar reaction to people who die trying to climb some mountain. Nature's a bitch. Who the fuck are you?

 

[BiBunny]

I also have anthropomorphizing problems. I'm saying that because your stallion will go at a bucket it's a leap of logic to think that he's not going to kick the person trying to suck his cock to death sometime later.

LOL, no kidding. A stallion will pretty much do damn near anything he wants to left to his own devices. Which was kind of my point.

 

[Netzach]

The only "real" wild horses* left in the world are the Przewalski Horses. I have no idea if horses would copulate with donkeys in the wild or not, but Przewalski Horses live in Northern Asia (where there aren't wild donkeys, I'm thinking). Though some people believe that Prezewalski Horses are a hybrid themselves.

*The rest of the "wild" horses are actually descendants of released or escaped domesticated horses. For example, the mustangs in the American West are descendants of the horses that the Spanish brought over.

Ok, so they're generations of feral horses. Mules are pretty awesome critters, actually, some genetic engineering brilliance. It's too bad they can't breed more mules. I'm going to assume that they're a product of either 1. just putting a lot of domestic horses and donkeys in proximity or 2. (more likely) breeding, specifically, taking one randy donkey who hasn't had it in months and one horse in estrus tied down really well.

My point being, the interspecies thing isn't defensible purely on the basis of "it's totally natural, it's our hang ups that blind us"

It's synthetic, it's toying with forces that will kill us if we can't control 'em. You're not going to throw a neophyte onto something other than a beginner pony to ride.

 

[Netzach]

I'm more focused on what it says about the human, than making a claim about the animal. Echoing Netz's thoughts that people don't think about consequences. I have a similar reaction to people who die trying to climb some mountain. Nature's a bitch. Who the fuck are you?

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[BiBunny]

Ok, so they're generations of feral horses. Mules are pretty awesome critters, actually, some genetic engineering brilliance. It's too bad they can't breed more mules. I'm going to assume that they're a product of either 1. just putting a lot of domestic horses and donkeys in proximity or 2. (more likely) breeding, specifically, taking one randy donkey who hasn't had it in months and one horse in estrus tied down really well.

My point being, the interspecies thing isn't defensible purely on the basis of "it's totally natural, it's our hang ups that blind us"

It's synthetic, it's toying with forces that will kill us if we can't control 'em. You're not going to throw a neophyte onto something other than a beginner pony to ride.

Hmmm...now I'm going to have to go hunt down some donkey and mule enthusiasts and talk to them. The extent of my mule experience is riding an ornery old white racking mule a time or two for my old trainer who had a screw loose. Good God, that sonofabitch was mean--the mule, I mean, not the trainer. *Shudder*

Maybe I'm just having fun playing devil's advocate here. I find that I always get into debates when people press their own agenda onto animals. And I think you and I actually sort of agree here.

No, absolutely, don't beat a dog to make it fuck you (though I'm not too sure how that'd work). But if the dog is happily humping away and appearing to enjoy himself, don't automatically assume that he's somehow suffering some kind of awful mental torment, either. I agree with JamieB's post a page or two back.

That being said, the idiot who had the stallion fuck his ass and then died from the ruptured colon deserved it. Errrr...ever take a good look at a horse's cock? Jesus Christ, there's no way that could work safely. I'm absolutely not saying that people should be protected from the consequences of their own actions. I just think it's ironic the automatic "eww, God!" knee-jerk reaction to the idea of bestiality/zoophilia and the smug, self-satisfied "oh, we have a responsibility toward these animals, and that responsibility is not to fuck them" attitude.

When you think through it logically and say, "Not for me," fine. That's basically what I've done. But I'm not going to stand on something similar to the Southern Baptist soapbox that my mother stands on when she says things like, "You know, Randi, if you didn't sleep around so much, all these bad relationship things wouldn't happen to you."

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think what disturbs me about such discussions are the claims made based on people's preferences for what they want to believe to suppport a particular idea, instead of dealing with reality. The thought that animals will not have sex with humans unless they have been encouraged by things such as peanut butter is one example (or tricked or forced in some way), just as the belief that species will not cross species breed and mate unless a human makes them or they are placed in a situation where there is no other option.

Mules are the product of human intervention, but reality is animals do not always need persuasion or coersion to have sex with humans, and some species have cross bred or had sex with other species in natural environments and circumstances without any intervention from humans or a situation of no other choice. Checking a few scientific articles will well and truly support this reality. So yes, nature can be bitch when it doesn't do what we expect or would like to believe, but it is far more interesting than if humans could control everything perfectly to fit their preferences.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Hmmm...now I'm going to have to go hunt down some donkey and mule enthusiasts and talk to them. The extent of my mule experience is riding an ornery old white racking mule a time or two for my old trainer who had a screw loose. Good God, that sonofabitch was mean--the mule, I mean, not the trainer. *Shudder*

Maybe I'm just having fun playing devil's advocate here. I find that I always get into debates when people press their own agenda onto animals. And I think you and I actually sort of agree here.

No, absolutely, don't beat a dog to make it fuck you (though I'm not too sure how that'd work). But if the dog is happily humping away and appearing to enjoy himself, don't automatically assume that he's somehow suffering some kind of awful mental torment, either. I agree with JamieB's post a page or two back.

That being said, the idiot who had the stallion fuck his ass and then died from the ruptured colon deserved it. Errrr...ever take a good look at a horse's cock? Jesus Christ, there's no way that could work safely. I'm absolutely not saying that people should be protected from the consequences of their own actions. I just think it's ironic the automatic "eww, God!" knee-jerk reaction to the idea of bestiality/zoophilia and the smug, self-satisfied "oh, we have a responsibility toward these animals, and that responsibility is not to fuck them" attitude.

When you think through it logically and say, "Not for me," fine. That's basically what I've done. But I'm not going to stand on something similar to the Southern Baptist soapbox that my mother stands on when she says things like, "You know, Randi, if you didn't sleep around so much, all these bad relationship things wouldn't happen to you."

Yeah, I don't think we're in huge disagreement either. We definitely agree that there's really no way to know whatthefuck is in Fido's brain. We can guess. But the fact that he's humping happily now doesn't necessarily mean he's not actually more likely to take a bite out of the back of your neck later. Being humped by a dog and letting him do it enthusiastically says "you are my alpha" - most people with dog experience will agree that this produces danger, ambiguity, and neurotic tendency in your dog.

You yourself have talked about what to expect from a horse who feels it's your boss now.

This is all guesswork, too, but it's guesswork based on dog norms as we know them.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Echoing Netz's thoughts that people don't think about consequences. I have a similar reaction to people who die trying to climb some mountain. Nature's a bitch. Who the fuck are you?

Do you really believe that mountaineers don't think about or acknowledge the risks?!! Sheesh, there are world renowned mountaineers who have lost limbs from falling off mountains or being trapped on them in bad conditions, who despite being considered handicapped have returned to climb yet another mountain. I actually admire the spirit of such people...if there were not people like that who were prepared to take risks because they were the type of person who had enough curiosity and/or drive to do more than take the safe and guarantted path, there would be no white or Afro American populations in the US, there would be a lot of countries and places missing from maps, and we would be lucky to even have a camp fire for light. Life is to be lived, not wrapped in safety blankets 100% of the time.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I think what disturbs me about such discussions are the claims made based on people's preferences for what they want to believe to suppport a particular idea, instead of dealing with reality.

What reality is this? Leda and the Swan? I've taken a nap in fields teeming with canada geese and woken up without any of them humping my thighs. If animals wanted to be our fuck friends, don't you think more of them would show some initiative?


Articles? like?

 

[BiBunny]

Yeah, I don't think we're in huge disagreement either. We definitely agree that there's really no way to know whatthefuck is in Fido's brain. We can guess. But the fact that he's humping happily now doesn't necessarily mean he's not actually more likely to take a bite out of the back of your neck later. Being humped by a dog and letting him do it enthusiastically says "you are my alpha" - most people with dog experience will agree that this produces danger, ambiguity, and neurotic tendency in your dog.

You yourself have talked about what to expect from a horse who feels it's your boss now.

This is all guesswork, too, but it's guesswork based on dog norms as we know them.

*Nods* I know practically nothing about dogs, having been kind of afraid of 'em most of my life. And you're right, any animal who thinks he's your alpha is a danger, which is one reason I never really had much desire to get into that kind of thing. I think with a fairly non-aggressive animal, it'll probably learn the difference between who it can be alpha towards and who it can't be, like how my horses know they can walk all over my mother, but all I have to do is raise my voice a bit at them, and they back off. Dogs tend to be more aggressive than horses, which is predator vs. prey, I guess, so I can see where that'd be more of a problem. And, plus, I don't think humping and/or fucking is really that much of a dominance thing in the horse's world. A stallion tends to be more afraid of a mare's back hooves than she is of his teeth.

 

[Essene]

I've had little sleep, so it may just be me, but I don't understand the question.

Okay. This is all very hypothetical for me.

So being that you're a fellow nerd ITW, have you ever heard of a show called "SeaQuest"?

It took place in like 2020 under the sea, and the boy genius had a pet dolphin and they had some sort of device where all of the dolphins klicks and clacks from echolocation were able to be translated into fairly articulate english.

If an animal is able to communicate consent in such a way that we know for certain that it is consent, then would you feel so strongly about beastiality and zoophilia?

If in the places where sexual relations with animals is illegal could legally say "well now we know what consent is, and if an animal consents, then it's okay"

Would that make a difference to you?

See, like I said earlier, not my thing, but if consent can be measured I'd just have to say "no thanks" and keep moving.

Not to mention the whole alpha dog thing that Netzach mentioned. The dangers abound...

Of course, she's human. I was painting with broad strokes, and was not trying to imply that people with diminished capacities (a huge category of course) or animals do not understand the consequences of their actions.

My real concern is a person who controls a situation to their advantage without the full consent or understanding and full comprehension of whoever is on the receiving end.

Okay, so in this are you saying that if an animal could consent and understood the consequences to their actions, that you'd pretty much have to say "no thanks, not for me, but y'all have fun now"?

 

[intothewoods]

I think what disturbs me about such discussions are the claims made based on people's preferences for what they want to believe to suppport a particular idea, instead of dealing with reality. The thought that animals will not have sex with humans unless they have been encouraged by things such as peanut butter is one example (or tricked or forced in some way), just as the belief that species will not cross species breed and mate unless a human makes them or they are placed in a situation where there is no other option.

Right, basing your argument on false information, or belief rather than fact is dangerous. I think there's also a problem with defining our terms. I see a lack of consent as more subtle than tricking an animal with peanut butter. Although again, I'm more focused on what's going on in the human's head. I know humans.

Mules are the product of human intervention, but reality is animals do not always need persuasion or coersion to have sex with humans, and some species have cross bred or had sex with other species in natural environments and circumstances without any intervention from humans or a situation of no other choice. Checking a few scientific articles will well and truly support this reality. So yes, nature can be bitch when it doesn't do what we expect or would like to believe, but it is far more interesting than if humans could control everything perfectly to fit their preferences.
Catalina

Oh yes, control is an illusion.

 

[Netzach]

Okay. This is all very hypothetical for me.

So being that you're a fellow nerd ITW, have you ever heard of a show called "SeaQuest"?

It took place in like 2020 under the sea, and the boy genius had a pet dolphin and they had some sort of device where all of the dolphins klicks and clacks from echolocation were able to be translated into fairly articulate english.

If an animal is able to communicate consent in such a way that we know for certain that it is consent, then would you feel so strongly about beastiality and zoophilia?

If in the places where sexual relations with animals is illegal could legally say "well now we know what consent is, and if an animal consents, then it's okay"

Would that make a difference to you?

See, like I said earlier, not my thing, but if consent can be measured I'd just have to say "no thanks" and keep moving.

Not to mention the whole alpha dog thing that Netzach mentioned. The dangers abound...

Haha, I'd be brushing up on my best *polite* turn downs in dolphin. They have nasty teeth.

 

[catalina_francisco]

What reality is this? Leda and the Swan? I've taken a nap in fields teeming with canada geese and woken up without any of them humping my thighs. If animals wanted to be our fuck friends, don't you think more of them would show some initiative?


Articles? like?
Ok, so they're generations of feral horses. Mules are pretty awesome critters, actually, some genetic engineering brilliance. It's too bad they can't breed more mules. I'm going to assume that they're a product of either 1. just putting a lot of domestic horses and donkeys in proximity or 2. (more likely) breeding, specifically, taking one randy donkey who hasn't had it in months and one horse in estrus tied down really well.

My point being, the interspecies thing isn't defensible purely on the basis of "it's totally natural, it's our hang ups that blind us"

It's synthetic, it's toying with forces that will kill us if we can't control 'em. You're not going to throw a neophyte onto something other than a beginner pony to ride.

Actually this (above) was one of the things which you said which seemed to be saying (I may have read it wrongly though), that in your opinion the only time species cross sexually are through human intervention or being in a situation of sheer sexual frustration because of their own species not being avialable. If anyone wants to check the scientific proof, they only have to check scientific publications (or google them) for articles about cross species breeding in both synthetic and natural environments to find that it does happen naturally without either of the conditions you describe as an explanation for why they would do it and/or the reality of such things happening. This article can be a start. For me it is not about whether it is right or wrong, but whether it is a reality.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Actually this (above) was one of the things which you said which seemed to be saying (I may have read it wrongly though), that in your opinion the only time species cross sexually are through human intervention or being in a situation of sheer sexual frustration because of their own species not being avialable. If anyone wants to check the scientific proof, they only have to check scientific publications (or google them) for articles about cross species breeding in both synthetic and natural environments to find that it does happen naturally without either of the conditions you describe as an explanation for why they would do it and/or the reality of such things happening. This article can be a start. For me it is not about whether it is right or wrong, but whether it is a reality.

Catalina

Totally down with hybridity and genetic diversity. Plants are awesome. Even more unfathomable than the fauna.

The mule is the mammalian example there, though.

Oak is the example of cross species breeding.

I'm in favor of wooden dildos, no issues there.

 

[Essene]

Haha, I'd be brushing up on my best *polite* turn downs in dolphin. They have nasty teeth.

*laugh* Yes yes they do.

So you'd just have to say "click click eeek click clack"?

 

[Netzach]

*laugh* Yes yes they do.

So you'd just have to say "click click eeek click clack"?

Much bigger problems would be presented by the lonely humpback whale. literally.

 

[Essene]

Much bigger problems would be presented by the lonely humpback whale. literally.

*nod* Talk about perforated cavities...

 

[Netzach]

*nod* Talk about perforated cavities...

New spin on Jonah?

OK OK I'm done, I'm sorry, I should be flogged.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Totally down with hybridity and genetic diversity. Plants are awesome. Even more unfathomable than the fauna.

The mule is the mammalian example there, though.

Oak is the example of cross species breeding.

I'm in favor of wooden dildos, no issues there.

LOL, wooden dildoes can have splinters if not treated nicely! There is evidence of mammal cross species breeding (and birds), though with mammals it is thought to be more prevalent with the larger species than small.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

LOL, wooden dildoes can have splinters if not treated nicely! There is evidence of mammal cross species breeding (and birds), though with mammals it is thought to be more prevalent with the larger species than small.

Catalina

Birds do not surprise me. They are notoroiously horny and nature's Kinsey report.