'Man'imal- Where to draw the line?

[faeriefire]

I'm more focused on what it says about the human, than making a claim about the animal. Echoing Netz's thoughts that people don't think about consequences. I have a similar reaction to people who die trying to climb some mountain. Nature's a bitch. Who the fuck are you?

Most of the people who die in mountaineering accidents die because they made stupid mistakes. Not all, but I'd say 80-90% with a good margin of confidence. Experienced mountaineers know to train, prepare, consider the risks and we keep climbing because it's fulfilling and a way to really feel insignificant, but all-powerful at the same time. Nature's only a bitch if you disrespect her. That said, accidents sometimes happen even when people are prepared. But if that stopped us from climbing what would be the point of living? In every choice there is an element of risk. That's life I guess. People are just drawn to different aspects, different levels. When people take a risk they prepare for the possible outcomes. What's scary to me about something like bestiality is we don't know the likely results so there aren't many clear paths of risk management. To me that is more insane than taking on a mountain.

Do you really believe that mountaineers don't think about or acknowledge the risks?!! Sheesh, there are world renowned mountaineers who have lost limbs from falling off mountains or being trapped on them in bad conditions, who despite being considered handicapped have returned to climb yet another mountain. I actually admire the spirit of such people...if there were not people like that who were prepared to take risks because they were the type of person who had enough curiosity and/or drive to do more than take the safe and guarantted path, there would be no white or Afro American populations in the US, there would be a lot of countries and places missing from maps, and we would be lucky to even have a camp fire for light. Life is to be lived, not wrapped in safety blankets 100% of the time.

Hmm...I agree and would add that 'living' will have a different meaning depending on the person. For me I need to climb at least a few times every year. For someone else satisfaction will come from routine, or a club, or their family, or their kinks. I'm glad we're all different. If we weren't this thread would have died long ago

Congrats on your guru-ness Mr. M. I think I'm close to advancing myself...hmm time to find an av...*wanders off*...or another mountain to climb...

 

[faeriefire]

LOL, wooden dildoes can have splinters if not treated nicely! There is evidence of mammal cross species breeding (and birds), though with mammals it is thought to be more prevalent with the larger species than small.

Catalina

Pygmy goats and full-sized goats can mate and have kinders. I believe their offspring are still fertile. Same family, different species.

 

[intothewoods]

Okay. This is all very hypothetical for me.

So being that you're a fellow nerd ITW, have you ever heard of a show called "SeaQuest"?

It took place in like 2020 under the sea, and the boy genius had a pet dolphin and they had some sort of device where all of the dolphins klicks and clacks from echolocation were able to be translated into fairly articulate english.

If an animal is able to communicate consent in such a way that we know for certain that it is consent, then would you feel so strongly about beastiality and zoophilia?

If in the places where sexual relations with animals is illegal could legally say "well now we know what consent is, and if an animal consents, then it's okay"

Would that make a difference to you?

See, like I said earlier, not my thing, but if consent can be measured I'd just have to say "no thanks" and keep moving.

Not to mention the whole alpha dog thing that Netzach mentioned. The dangers abound...




Okay, so in this are you saying that if an animal could consent and understood the consequences to their actions, that you'd pretty much have to say "no thanks, not for me, but y'all have fun now"?

Uh, no. Does that answer your question?

I am so tired, I can't articulate this completely. I'll have to come back later.

I'll just say that I think this goes back to defining our terms. And I suppose in my earlier post, I may have stomped my feet a little bit loudly in saying this is wrong, because I feel like there is generally some pressure in the lifestyle to never say anything isn't okay. I am not suggesting that eighteen zillion laws be passed to address my concerns. And I don't run around inspecting relationships either.

That said, we're talking about apples and oranges, and we have been since the beginning. You're saying, what if the dog started talking, and he could say, I want that, which brings up a lot of complicated issues about what is consent (the ones I'm avoiding right now ), and I'm saying, if I find out someone I'm close to fucks dogs regularly, I have a lot of questions for that person. You did what? How? With what? Why?

 

[intothewoods]

Totally down with hybridity and genetic diversity. Plants are awesome. Even more unfathomable than the fauna.

The mule is the mammalian example there, though.

Oak is the example of cross species breeding.

I'm in favor of wooden dildos, no issues there.

Genetic diversity rocks - the cherry blossoms in DC? They're all different mutations and that's why they survive. They first tried to plant all exact same strains and all the trees died. Saw it on a pbs show. Yeah, I'm getting way too tired to be arguing about anything.

Most of the people who die in mountaineering accidents die because they made stupid mistakes. Not all, but I'd say 80-90% with a good margin of confidence. Experienced mountaineers know to train, prepare, consider the risks and we keep climbing because it's fulfilling and a way to really feel insignificant, but all-powerful at the same time. Nature's only a bitch if you disrespect her. That said, accidents sometimes happen even when people are prepared. But if that stopped us from climbing what would be the point of living? In every choice there is an element of risk. That's life I guess. People are just drawn to different aspects, different levels. When people take a risk they prepare for the possible outcomes. What's scary to me about something like bestiality is we don't know the likely results so there aren't many clear paths of risk management. To me that is more insane than taking on a mountain.

I generally agree. If you are someone who takes a calculated risk, or a risk knowing the consequences fully? That's a choice I can respect. It gets a little complicated when climbers leave behind babies that never got to knew them, but I'm just riffing off the program about those Into Thin Air guys, I think. It's been a few years. Do you know what I'm talking about? Guy who couldn't get back down the mountain. And they patched the call through to his wife, who was pregnant, or a new mother, I can't recall. Broke my fucking heart. Again, arguments to be made on the other side, for sure. And totally off topic. Bad bad sleepy itw.

 

[madetotakeit]

It is a fantasy and concept that has been around since who knows how long...Ancient Greek and Roman mythology and art are strewn with references. Judging by how many versions of mini-stallion and and zooskool vids are on the file sharing programs, it's not going away anytime soon.

The draw can be anything from just "ooh, this is kinky" to as someone mentioned earlier the mindfuck of being placed lower on the totem pole than something that is commonly seen as having a much lower place in regular thought. It's not BDSM, but I have heard of it used as a form of humiliation.

I do wonder how many people have these included in their toy boxes.

Ha, I just remembered something from art class.

Before becoming a total hack sellout, William Wegman made experimental films with his Weimariners - another breed I find dog-sexy, anyhow...

some of these were even shown on SNL in the seventies, they were VERY funny - this one was not shown and was about advertising.

He had Man Ray on his lap. He's talking the whole time like a car salesman, while he's wanking Man Ray's dick, pulling his gums, his ears, prodding.

I met Wegman when he spoke at my college. Interesting guy. He brought two of his dogs with him and I remember being amazed at how willing they were to keep whatever pose he placed them in. Now I have a whole different image of why! lol

 

[faeriefire]

Momentary hijack to answer your question ITW...

What happened and was documented by Jon Krakauer in Into Thin Air was a terrible trajedy that never should have happened. There were too many inexperienced climbers following guides up Everest. There were too many sherpa hauling loads up and down. There were people who made choices not to turn around at 2pm when responsible climbers call it a day because they wanted to get to the top. And they shouldn't have been running behind but there was a back-up on the mountain and when you're at that kind of altitute we're also talking O2 deprivation, sleep deprivation, etc. Too many people and one narrow track up. And then the weather changed. Both the book and movie were very well done. And yes, they were heartbreaking, especially watching people make choices that resulted in a chain of events that could not be stopped once the weather moved in. There are situations involving avalanches, weather, crevases, etc. that cannot be changed. But at the same time, if you climb with a good crew, plan for emergencies and remember that getting up is only half the battle many tragedies like this would be averted. End hijack

 

[Homburg]

This involves almost as much, nah, maybe even JUST as much projection as "well it can't consent"

Eh, maybe it's just me, but I apply the Cop Test to consent. In other words, if an officer of the law discovers us in coitus, I want whatever I'm humping to be capable of saying "Yes, officer, I consented to this".


------

Yeah, I don't think we're in huge disagreement either. We definitely agree that there's really no way to know whatthefuck is in Fido's brain. We can guess. But the fact that he's humping happily now doesn't necessarily mean he's not actually more likely to take a bite out of the back of your neck later. Being humped by a dog and letting him do it enthusiastically says "you are my alpha" - most people with dog experience will agree that this produces danger, ambiguity, and neurotic tendency in your dog.

You yourself have talked about what to expect from a horse who feels it's your boss now.

This is all guesswork, too, but it's guesswork based on dog norms as we know them.

Very much so. Introducing ambiguity into a dog's world is a great way to be reminded that Fido is a predator, and can be a fierce one. I've personally been on the wrong end of an angry dog more than once. The experience is zero fun. In one case, the dog would literally have killed me. Featherless biped sans weapon versus a 145# Japanese-bred Akita is not even remotely a fair fight. Fortunately, I knew that dog like the back of my hand, he loved me, and accepted me as, not his Alpha, but certainly higher in the pack order than he was. As I result, I wound up not needing stitches, but sure as hell being bloodied.

It wasn't even ambiguity in his case. I was hand feeding him, and knocked a book off the table onto the back of his neck. Total accident, but he still bit the shit out of my leg out of sheer reaction. They're wired differently than we are. He clamped onto my leg, realised his mistake, and immediately hunkered down. The poor dog looked miserable because he'd bitten me.

Two months later, he was hanging out with his owner's girlfriend. She was not higher in the pack than he was, period. They fought for dominance, and Kuma just couldn't accept that his owner's fucktoy was cooler than he was, thumbs or not. She was eating a sandwich, and he tryed to snitch some ham. She swatted him on the nose and told him no. He looked her in the eye, blinked, and clamped down full force on her forearm. Nearly broke it. No misery, no guilt. That dog was pissed. The look in his eye was eloquent , "Bitch, you will give me the food.". Owner-dude was all over the dog, but the damage was done. Her arm was a wreck.

Anecdotes, of course, and not completely applicable, but it reallys points up Netzach's concept of, hey, doggy has teeth. And introducing ambiguity in roles is a great way to find out how sharp those teeth are.

 

[Homburg]

Pygmy goats and full-sized goats can mate and have kinders. I believe their offspring are still fertile. Same family, different species.

Llamas and camels too. Very interesting offspring.

 

[Ganyeka]

Back to the original question - as HUMANS, the place to draw the line is with anything NON human. It ain't real hard a concept to get. We aren't animals. We are supposedly sentient, civilised human beings. Whether that civilisation is Westerm, Eastern, or Tribal. Like it or not (and books about our inner apes and anthropomorphism notwithstanding) we are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT to the rest of the carbon based life forms on this planet. Just fucking accept it and move on.

Jesus. The mental gymnastics some people carry on with to justify the sick shit they do is ridiculous.

If you fuck, suck or have sexual dealings with an animal, for any reason short of having a fucking gun to your head, you need a full mental health workup, some serious, long term psychiatric intervention and probably some sort of prescription medication.

END OF STORY. I mean apart from anything else, it is illegal in every part of the world I can think of, and carries some of the strictest global cultural taboo's on the planet after incest.

Do these sick fuckers who lust after Fido and Mr Ed stop to think maybe there is a good reason for this universal revulsion and condemnation?

And if you fantasise about people fucking, sucking and having sexual dealings with an animal, if that is what floats your boat, then my advice is to get a grip on the shit going on in your head and figure out WHY sick, deviant, illegal shit like that gets you off. There is probably some issues buried in your top paddock that are better addressed than allowed to incubate further, if you know what I mean.

How we think drives how we feel. If you're thinking is creating a feeling of arousal when you see some whore sucking or fucking dogs and horses, then mate, you need to address you're thinking and remind yourself of a few basic truths connected to the sick shit you're getting autoerotic over.

I think that's pretty clear.

 

[madetotakeit]

The General Board has spoken. This is a reminder of why I don't tread those threads. A topic of conversation can not be a topic of conversation without someone feeling the need to judge those who even participate in a topic. The realization that if someone else does what they see as fitting for them does not have any bearing on them doesn't seem to click. The easy solution is if a subject offends...avoid the thread. Just my general feeling of the differences in the boards, not just this thread.

 

[Ganyeka]

The General Board has spoken. This is a reminder of why I don't tread those threads. A topic of conversation can not be a topic of conversation without someone feeling the need to judge those who even participate in a topic. The realization that if someone else does what they see as fitting for them does not have any bearing on them doesn't seem to click. The easy solution is if a subject offends...avoid the thread. Just my general feeling of the differences in the boards, not just this thread.

What is your problem precious?

Someone asked a question about a pretty controversial topic. There are bound to be a range of answers and opinions. I posted my opinion. I realise some or many (I don't really care) will disagree. I couldn't care less. To ME, this is an easy question. Others may be fence sitters out of a lack of conviction, or a lack of balls and a fear of giving offense. I have not sugarcoated what I think. If you have some reason for thinking it's OK to fuck Fido and not feel like a pervert, then please, explain it to me, I'd love to see your reasoning. I doubt you'll change my mind, but it could be an interesting chat.

This board is about freedom of expression and free speech, so if that offends you then maybe you should go find somewhere else to waste your online time.

 

[madetotakeit]

What is your problem precious?

Someone asked a question about a pretty controversial topic. There are bound to be a range of answers and opinions. I posted my opinion. I realise some or many (I don't really care) will disagree. I couldn't care less. To ME, this is an easy question. Others may be fence sitters out of a lack of conviction, or a lack of balls and a fear of giving offense. I have not sugarcoated what I think. If you have some reason for thinking it's OK to fuck Fido and not feel like a pervert, then please, explain it to me, I'd love to see your reasoning. I doubt you'll change my mind, but it could be an interesting chat.

This board is about freedom of expression and free speech, so if that offends you then maybe you should go find somewhere else to waste your online time.

I agree one of the things that I appreciate the most about this board is that there is freedom of expression. I was simply exercising my right as you did. While I do believe in free expression, I also believe that condemnation and judging people as having mental afflictions because of something they may fantasize about is not necessary. There are a variety of fantasies written about on this board and while not all may be to my choosing, I can either take part in the discussion without lashing out or I will simply not post. This board is an interaction and saying that something isn't sugarcoated does not excuse the judgments, assumptions, and condemnations. You certainly could have made your point- sans sugarcoating- without going to the level that you did.

You have your right to your opinion as do I. I'm not being adversarial. I certainly allow you the right to your opinion. I'm simply pointing out my opinion. On the topic at hand, it doesn't matter which side of the fence I land on or straddle. That would be a discussion on limits and motivations between me and the person I am involved with.

Calling me precious implies familiarity. Being able to refer to me as such has to be earned. Unless of course you were being condescending.
Live and let live is my motto.

 

[BiBunny]

This board is about freedom of expression and free speech, so if that offends you then maybe you should go find somewhere else to waste your online time.

Take your own advice...precious.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Eh, maybe it's just me, but I apply the Cop Test to consent. In other words, if an officer of the law discovers us in coitus, I want whatever I'm humping to be capable of saying "Yes, officer, I consented to this".

dang, if that's the bar, then that knocks out a heck of a lot of the stuff many of us engage in, humans only, everyday.

 

[Homburg]

dang, if that's the bar, then that knocks out a heck of a lot of the stuff many of us engage in, humans only, everyday.

Well, she might need to be woken up first. But, at some point, she can voice consent. I'm not saying she's constantly capable, just theoretically capable. Make sense?

 

[Ganyeka]

I agree one of the things that I appreciate the most about this board is that there is freedom of expression. I was simply exercising my right as you did. While I do believe in free expression, I also believe that condemnation and judging people as having mental afflictions because of something they may fantasize about is not necessary. There are a variety of fantasies written about on this board and while not all may be to my choosing, I can either take part in the discussion without lashing out or I will simply not post. This board is an interaction and saying that something isn't sugarcoated does not excuse the judgments, assumptions, and condemnations. You certainly could have made your point- sans sugarcoating- without going to the level that you did.

You have your right to your opinion as do I. I'm not being adversarial. I certainly allow you the right to your opinion. I'm simply pointing out my opinion. On the topic at hand, it doesn't matter which side of the fence I land on or straddle. That would be a discussion on limits and motivations between me and the person I am involved with.

Calling me precious implies familiarity. Being able to refer to me as such has to be earned. Unless of course you were being condescending.
Live and let live is my motto.

By precious I meant you were being precious.

I don't condemn people for VARIANT behaviour - you know, being gay, or swinging, or threesomes etc. But Bestiality is DIFFERENT. It is a sufficient departure of a fundamental nature and uncommon enough to be called DEVIANT. We don't need to go into a deep psychological analyses of what is going wrong in the heads of people who get jiggy with Fido do we? I mean really. Bestiality is to Normal Sex what Sadam Hussein was to Responsible Government. You can argue Democrat or Republican all you like, I don't care how you vote but any sensible right thinking person realises you cross a line when you start with Brutal Fascist Dictator.

And I drew a clear distinction between the person in the video getting fucked by Mr Ed and the people who watch it but would never do it. Personally, I think fantasising about it and watching it, and being actively involved in it from that sort of voyeristic point of view still means you need to have a good long think about what the fuck is going on in your head for that sort of stuff to be arousing for you. The fact that someone draws a line between the thought and the act is encouraging, but if I started getting a boner over that stuff, I would seriously start to question what the fuck was going on with me.

And how is it that when someone asks for opinions, and an opinion is given, people jump all over it if it isn't "broad minded" enough for the prevailing "who cares how sick it is, it's all ok for grownups" view. Then when you say "Hey, back off, I was expressing my opinion just like the OP asked me to", someone has to pull a BiBunny and say something inane like "take your own advice"?

 

[Netzach]

Well, she might need to be woken up first. But, at some point, she can voice consent. I'm not saying she's constantly capable, just theoretically capable. Make sense?

Or at least at some point she picked the person she was going to listen to, from that point forward. It's really not THAT hard.

 

[Netzach]

By precious I meant you were being precious.

I don't condemn people for VARIANT behaviour - you know, being gay, or swinging, or threesomes etc. But Bestiality is DIFFERENT. It is a sufficient departure of a fundamental nature and uncommon enough to be called DEVIANT. We don't need to go into a deep psychological analyses of what is going wrong in the heads of people who get jiggy with Fido do we? I mean really. Bestiality is to Normal Sex what Sadam Hussein was to Responsible Government. You can argue Democrat or Republican all you like, I don't care how you vote but any sensible right thinking person realises you cross a line when you start with Brutal Fascist Dictator.

And I drew a clear distinction between the person in the video getting fucked by Mr Ed and the people who watch it but would never do it. Personally, I think fantasising about it and watching it, and being actively involved in it from that sort of voyeristic point of view still means you need to have a good long think about what the fuck is going on in your head for that sort of stuff to be arousing for you. The fact that someone draws a line between the thought and the act is encouraging, but if I started getting a boner over that stuff, I would seriously start to question what the fuck was going on with me.

And how is it that when someone asks for opinions, and an opinion is given, people jump all over it if it isn't "broad minded" enough for the prevailing "who cares how sick it is, it's all ok for grownups" view. Then when you say "Hey, back off, I was expressing my opinion just like the OP asked me to", someone has to pull a BiBunny and say something inane like "take your own advice"?

Because a lot of us don't take kindly, sweetie, honey, sugar lumpkins, to patronizing 'tudes. You can make your point without that.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Well, she might need to be woken up first. But, at some point, she can voice consent. I'm not saying she's constantly capable, just theoretically capable. Make sense?

yep i get ya Homburg, just giving you a bit of a hard time. abiding by the "Cop Test" just wouldn't work in this house. especially when you end up in a situation with about 5 of 'em standing around questioning you and looking at you like you're stupid and pathetic and your Master like he's some kind of monster they can't wait to cage....they honestly could give a flookie about a person's consent if they deem the lifestyle deviant enough.

 

[Netzach]

yep i get ya Homburg, just giving you a bit of a hard time. abiding by the "Cop Test" just wouldn't work in this house. especially when you end up in a situation with about 5 of 'em standing around questioning you and looking at you like you're stupid and pathetic and your Master like he's some kind of monster they can't wait to cage....they honestly could give a flookie about a person's consent if they deem the lifestyle deviant enough.

There is that. A lot of us would flunk the Cop Test whatever that might be. I don't relish the opportunity to explain myself to any particular authority figure.

 

[JamieB]

S'matter, Ganyeka? This topic hit a little too close to home for you?

I don't give a crap about bestiality, other than I used to talk to a woman who was into it, but there are some interesting points being made by interesting people in this thread, and that exchange of ideas, not the topic per se, is what makes it cool.

J

 

[Caitlynne]

And how is it that when someone asks for opinions, and an opinion is given, people jump all over it if it isn't "broad minded" enough for the prevailing "who cares how sick it is, it's all ok for grownups" view. Then when you say "Hey, back off, I was expressing my opinion just like the OP asked me to", someone has to pull a BiBunny and say something inane like "take your own advice"?

How is it? Well, this is how it is. Free speech was exercised by you, AND then more free speech was exercised by people who had a strong opinion about the strong opinion you expressed. That's free speech, and that is how this happened.

People who come back with this "hey it's free speech so shut the fuck up" meme always make me laugh. I mean really laugh hard. The sheer naivety of it is staggering.

Precious, sweetie, honeybuns free speech isn't consequence free. You gave your opinion, and like the rest of us you now have a few consequences as a result. It's not rocket science.

 

[Homburg]

Or at least at some point she picked the person she was going to listen to, from that point forward. It's really not THAT hard.

Exactly.

----

yep i get ya Homburg, just giving you a bit of a hard time. abiding by the "Cop Test" just wouldn't work in this house. especially when you end up in a situation with about 5 of 'em standing around questioning you and looking at you like you're stupid and pathetic and your Master like he's some kind of monster they can't wait to cage....they honestly could give a flookie about a person's consent if they deem the lifestyle deviant enough.

Oh, geeze, the activities would certainly not pass the Cop Test. I was just talking specifically about the consent part. I do all sorts of things that Officer Friendly woul dget unfriendly about

 

[Ganyeka]

How is it? Well, this is how it is. Free speech was exercised by you, AND then more free speech was exercised by people who had a strong opinion about the strong opinion you expressed. That's free speech, and that is how this happened.

People who come back with this "hey it's free speech so shut the fuck up" meme always make me laugh. I mean really laugh hard. The sheer naivety of it is staggering.

Precious, sweetie, honeybuns free speech isn't consequence free. You gave your opinion, and like the rest of us you now have a few consequences as a result. It's not rocket science.

My point was that those sort of "just shut up" comments seek to censor my opinion because they don't like it, but then at the same time use the "freedom of expression" argument to justify why them telling me to shut up is the exercise of THEIR free speech. If you don't see the irony, just fuggedaboudit.

 

[YourCaptor]

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what catalina_francisco has had to say. I think she gets animals pretty well.

On another note

Bestiality, I think, is not covered under the umbrella of BDSM, however if someone comes forward and points to a specific BDSM concept that they implement in their activities with animals, then they must be let underneath the umbrella.

Keeping that in mind, if I was to practice bestiality it would very much be a BDSM thing because I would do it largely for the purity* of D/s. Animal social hierarchies are not concealed by the intricate weave of logic and morals that we humans blanket everything with. Many people may not recognize how obvious animal hierarchy is, but that is probably due in large to the fact that we destroy it in almost every animal we see. For example pets, the reason why you should spay or neuter your pet is to remove the primary drive for a social hierarchy. Cutting out a large part of their reproductive organs is the only thing that allows suburbs to have a dog per backyard without mass hysteria everywhere.

However animals do have their own social contracts, they aren’t written anywhere, but if you sit with them a little and just watch, its pretty simple to see how things work. I would even go as far as saying it is intuitive, because human social hierarchy, without all the glitz and glamour, is till very extensive, and has elements of almost all animal hierarchies within it.

In the end, I would consider bestiality as a simple pleasure. While I may enjoy the simplicity of it, in the end I am still human, and that weave of logic and morals is ingrained too much in my nature to simply go do the hermit thing and live with the animals.

* By “purity” I mean the most basic, simple, core concept required. I do not mean the ultimate version.