My first thread here

[ecstaticsub]

I gave him lots and lots of tips on how to protect his family. I have never even come close to pushing that, nor do I want to. I was too paranoid to call when he was away from home and I had the number to his room, for fear that he might be on the phone with his family.


I cant trust someone who doesn't trust me. I also wont put up with being taken for granted, or having to make a huge deal out of everything to get him to "hear me" or have the things I find important invalidated because it isn't how he sees it.

If someone is really "there for me", then they need to be somewhat available. Not hit or miss. If he didn't log on, then we didn't talk. yet, when he wanted to talk to me, he could get me most times.

I was told many time how "he would handle things if he were me", yet when I shut down text message communication and started to relying to just when I was on line, he got upset because "he never knew when I was going to be on line".

I am hurt. I really though we were friends, but the inconsideration and disrespect of late is too much for me to deal with

I understand you being hurt. I hope you understand I wasn't attacking you. I was just trying to see things from his point of view.

Some people are very slower at trusting others. It sounds to me that you both had different expectations. If you want to continue with this friendship it would seem to me that you both need to communicate what to expect from each other.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

Oh, well if it's "more than just friendship," then here's my advice. It may be unnecessary at this point, but nevertheless here you go.

If you're wondering how a guy feels about you, don't pay attention to what he *says*. Pay attention to what he actually *does*. Never does the axiom "actions speak louder than words" ring more true, than in this context.

Yes, I agree and I think that is why the change in behavior upset me. I knew I was being taken for granted, no matter what the words said indicated.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

His wife may or may not have known anything. Or perhaps they have a "don't ask,don't tell" arrangement. What goes on between a married couple is theirs and theirs alone. Only they really know the real dynamics and rules of how they manage their marriage. (I'm talking mostly about people who have been married a long time, more than 10 yrs for example)

Regarding rules of respect with a married man (or for a married women). There is really one main rule.

Respect the marriage. Spouse and children come first in every situation. I never call him during those certain times of the day that are "their" time. Never, as in for no reason ever. If he were admitted to the hospital, or seriously ill the place by his bedside is reserved for his wife. I don't belong anywhere near him. (His best friend would call me and keep me updated ). If I don't hear from him for an unusual period of time, I call his friend not his wife. My PYL has my sister's phone number to call just in case. As much as my husband approves and supports my D/s relationship if I am seriously ill in the hospital he doesn't want to talk to my PYL.

I am in love with my PYL and he is in love with me. But our relationship does not change the very long-term relationships we have with our spouses.

I'll add the usual disclaimer..this is my experience with my relationships and does not mean I think every relationship should be the same way.

Never, in a year and a half did I cross the "family" barrier. Nor did I want to.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

I understand you being hurt. I hope you understand I was attacking you. I was just trying to see things from his point of view.

Some people are very slower at trusting others. It sounds to me that you both had different expectations. If you want to continue with this friendship it would seem to me that you both need to communicate what to expect from each other.

I dont think anyone here is attacking me. I also dont think I can continue with the relationship. Too much pain and drama, no matter how "rich" the feelings. The drama makes me doubt the feelings from his side.

I am also trying very hard not to send anything hate filled or non productive when I communicate with him.

I probably should havepicked another forum to "vent" on, but this site is relevant to the whole situation.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I dont think anyone here is attacking me. I also dont think I can continue with the relationship. Too much pain and drama, no matter how "rich" the feelings. The drama makes me doubt the feelings from his side.

I am also trying very hard not to send anything hate filled or non productive when I communicate with him.

I probably should havepicked another forum to "vent" on, but this site is relevant to the whole situation.

Of course I meant "wasn't" attacking you, instead of was. Sorry for the typo.

Vent away, we all need it sometimes.

 

[BiBunny]

His wife may or may not have known anything. Or perhaps they have a "don't ask,don't tell" arrangement. What goes on between a married couple is theirs and theirs alone. Only they really know the real dynamics and rules of how they manage their marriage. (I'm talking mostly about people who have been married a long time, more than 10 yrs for example)

Regarding rules of respect with a married man (or for a married women). There is really one main rule.

Respect the marriage. Spouse and children come first in every situation. I never call him during those certain times of the day that are "their" time. Never, as in for no reason ever. If he were admitted to the hospital, or seriously ill the place by his bedside is reserved for his wife. I don't belong anywhere near him. (His best friend would call me and keep me updated ). If I don't hear from him for an unusual period of time, I call his friend not his wife. My PYL has my sister's phone number to call just in case. As much as my husband approves and supports my D/s relationship if I am seriously ill in the hospital he doesn't want to talk to my PYL.

I am in love with my PYL and he is in love with me. But our relationship does not change the very long-term relationships we have with our spouses.

I'll add the usual disclaimer..this is my experience with my relationships and does not mean I think every relationship should be the same way.

Thanks for elaborating.

I could see how, in a situation like yours, those rules would apply. They would certainly make things easier in a don't-ask-don't-tell sort of arrangement.

You're a better person than me, though. I'm not sure that I could do what you do. I understand where you're coming from, however, and I respect anybody strong enough to do that.

It's different for me, of course, being involved with both halves of the married couple. If Master were in the hospital, I'd have to come up with some way to come see him. The same applies to Mistress, too. I know if one or the other of them were sick or hurt, the other would do everything in his/her power to make sure I could be there.

My greatest fear is that something bad will happen to both of them at once (bad car accident or something). None of our families know the full extent of our relationship with one another, so there's a good possibility I would have to sit idly by. I'm not sure if I could stand it. The same goes for me, too. If I'm in ICU, they can't come see me, either. Neither can Kitty. It's depressing.

Um, I sort of got off on a tangent there. My apologies. It's just something that's been on my mind lately.

 

[Tease_U]

How would you feel if someone had your phone number for a year and a half and when you decide you want theirs, they aren't forthcoming? I didnt want it, initially, for many reasons. I have never given them any reason to mistust me, so I am not sure what the problem is now.

How would you feel if you got a text message saying "I will call shortly" and the next time you hear from them it is almost 24 hours later, via text?

How about this? Any time you and this person had an issue in the past they always wanted to talk on the phone about it because "we owed it to ourselves" but all of a sudden, when I say if we talk it will be me calling you and there is nothing to that effect.

I have been an absolute idiot!!

Don't worry, I wont give out your name.

Wow I have been away for awhile and now there is drama on the BDSm threads???

Tawny I am not sure what went on but I guess you are not happy and I am sure there is two sides to the story. After all it sounds like an internet thing so I am sure there is lots more out there for you.....just my opinion.

Now where are the whips and chains

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

Thanks for elaborating.

I could see how, in a situation like yours, those rules would apply. They would certainly make things easier in a don't-ask-don't-tell sort of arrangement.

You're a better person than me, though. I'm not sure that I could do what you do. I understand where you're coming from, however, and I respect anybody strong enough to do that.

It's different for me, of course, being involved with both halves of the married couple. If Master were in the hospital, I'd have to come up with some way to come see him. The same applies to Mistress, too. I know if one or the other of them were sick or hurt, the other would do everything in his/her power to make sure I could be there.

My greatest fear is that something bad will happen to both of them at once (bad car accident or something). None of our families know the full extent of our relationship with one another, so there's a good possibility I would have to sit idly by. I'm not sure if I could stand it. The same goes for me, too. If I'm in ICU, they can't come see me, either. Neither can Kitty. It's depressing.

Um, I sort of got off on a tangent there. My apologies. It's just something that's been on my mind lately.

It is all good.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

Wow I have been away for awhile and now there is drama on the BDSm threads???

Tawny I am not sure what went on but I guess you are not happy and I am sure there is two sides to the story. After all it sounds like an internet thing so I am sure there is lots more out there for you.....just my opinion.

Now where are the whips and chains

It started out as a net thing and progressed.

Yeah, I am venting and it is dramatic.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

Thanks for the input and for letting me vent. I am taking a sabbatical from the board.

Take Care

 

[Adakgirl]

and yes, it was more than just friendship

The moment it became this
then you did indeed do this:

Never, in a year and a half did I cross the "family" barrier. Nor did I want to.

 

[ecstaticsub]

The moment it became this
then you did indeed do this:

I can't speak for Tawny_Temptress, but sex with a married person does not necessarily cross the family barrier.

 

[nh23]

I can't speak for Tawny_Temptress, but sex with a married person does not necessarily cross the family barrier.

Unless his wife is unaware...at that point it would wouldn't it? And if she's not allowed to have his phone number I bet it's safe to assume wifey doesn't know.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Unless his wife is unaware...at that point it would wouldn't it? And if she's not allowed to have his phone number I bet it's safe to assume wifey doesn't know.

Or maybe there is an agreement between the husband and wife that they don't let lovers/friends have their home phone numbers, real address etc. Or maybe until he has 100% trust in his "friend" he wants to make sure there is no family interrupting drama if they break up.

That is why I said no one knows what agreements--spoken or unspoken--go on between two people in a marriage/committed partnership.

I don't condone lying to a spouse about anything. But After spending years on a wifesharing forum and chatting with tons of men and women who have a huge variety of different marriage arrangements and issues I have learned not to judge a situation.

The family barrier I was referring to is my PYL has a relationship with me, not my husband, not my children--just me. I may talk about my husband and children with him but he has no power over them, or power over how I interact with them. He doesn't call my home number unless he is 100% sure I am home alone. Time I send with my family is precious and he doesn't interfer. And the same goes for how I interact in his life.

 

[nh23]

Or maybe there is an agreement between the husband and wife that they don't let lovers/friends have their home phone numbers, real address etc. Or maybe until he has 100% trust in his "friend" he wants to make sure there is no family interrupting drama if they break up.

That is why I said no one knows what agreements--spoken or unspoken--go on between two people in a marriage/committed partnership.

I don't condone lying to a spouse about anything. But After spending years on a wifesharing forum and chatting with tons of men and women who have a huge variety of different marriage arrangements and issues I have learned not to judge a situation.

The family barrier I was referring to is my PYL has a relationship with me, not my husband, not my children--just me. I may talk about my husband and children with him but he has no power over them, or power over how I interact with them. He doesn't call my home number unless he is 100% sure I am home alone. Time I send with my family is precious and he doesn't interfer. And the same goes for how I interact in his life.

It's a possibility. But if I was going to bet money on it I'd say she doesn't know.

 

[ecstaticsub]

It's a possibility. But if I was going to bet money on it I'd say she doesn't know.

She might not, but her knowing may not be important in that marriage.

 

[nh23]

She might not, but her knowing may not be important in that marriage.

Could be. I know that there are relationships like that, but I really don't think they are the majority.

 

[rida]

Could be. I know that there are relationships like that, but I really don't think they are the majority.

They seem to be the norm here. But is a cultural thing.
Although it seems to be the case also with many of the married people I deal with.

Somehow it easier for many vanilla spouses to live with the "not wanting to know" rather than either be open about it or outright forbid it.
And the fact that I would not want such an arrangement in my life should have no bearing on how they work out their life.



That being said, to the OP:
Just because it progressed toward a more intimate relationship it didn't mean it was a friendship. Having clear goals and expectations is very important in any relationship, but even more so if you are not the primary one.

 

[SimonBrooke]

I am hurt. I really though we were friends, but the inconsideration and disrespect of late is too much for me to deal with

Tawny, if you're still listening (I know you say you're taking a sabbatical), I want to say the one thing no-one on this thread has said yet. It may be a social gaffe to say these sorts of things in BDSM circles, but...

***HUGS***

I hear, and feel, and understand your pain. And I think it is reasonable for you to feel pain.

A lot of the things that other people have said are very sensible, and probably right. He probably was a user. And men on the whole do tend to invest less of themselves in this (or any other) sort of relationship than women. And if he's a user then his wife almost certainly does pay his phone bill. All in all you probably are better without him.

But all this is kind of beside the point. You're hurting. You have made yourself exposed and vulnerable for him, and he has not treated you at all kindly. You feel betrayed and demeaned; your self image - your image of yourself as someone capable of being loved and worthy of being loved - is damaged. And somewhere in you (somewhere in all of us) is a child who cannot understand these things, who cannot rationalise this pain, who is just hurt and distressed and miserable.

So to that child I say again:

***HUGS***

These things hurt. They hurt like hell. But they do pass. The sun may be behind clouds now, but it will come out again. Be strong.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Ok, everyone else has very valid and helpful type things to say, but I'm stuck on one point.

Do you not see his number any time he texts you?

Can people in other countries block that?

We can block caller id from showing up in a phonecall, but not a text.

I'm confused

Sorry for the small hijack.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

Tawny, if you're still listening (I know you say you're taking a sabbatical), I want to say the one thing no-one on this thread has said yet. It may be a social gaffe to say these sorts of things in BDSM circles, but...

***HUGS***

I hear, and feel, and understand your pain. And I think it is reasonable for you to feel pain.

A lot of the things that other people have said are very sensible, and probably right. He probably was a user. And men on the whole do tend to invest less of themselves in this (or any other) sort of relationship than women. And if he's a user then his wife almost certainly does pay his phone bill. All in all you probably are better without him.

But all this is kind of beside the point. You're hurting. You have made yourself exposed and vulnerable for him, and he has not treated you at all kindly. You feel betrayed and demeaned; your self image - your image of yourself as someone capable of being loved and worthy of being loved - is damaged. And somewhere in you (somewhere in all of us) is a child who cannot understand these things, who cannot rationalise this pain, who is just hurt and distressed and miserable.

So to that child I say again:

***HUGS***

These things hurt. They hurt like hell. But they do pass. The sun may be behind clouds now, but it will come out again. Be strong.

TYVM! It did hurt but now it actually doesnt matter. It just clicked when I realized how he avoided taking full responsibility for anything he had ever done by trying to, some how, into something I did to cause it or by bringing up things that are completely beside the point that you made. All to avoid accountability. I actually realized he did this from the beginning but we never really address the phone number thing, completely and he never offered his number until he realized that I was 'not going to stay'. not once in all of these weeks did he mention wanting to talk on the phone again UNTIL I said I just didnt want the number any more.

During all this, when trying to remain friends, he got up and went to get pie during us IMing, without bothering to tell me he was leaving. He also didnt even bother to say Happy Birthday to me. etc, etc. etc

I know now that I wasted a lot of time and energy on this man. I wasnt going to come back to Lit but, fuck him, I am here. I dont feel the need to avoid him any more. probably because the only energy I have vested in him now is contempt. I actually feel better than I have in a long time.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

Ok, everyone else has very valid and helpful type things to say, but I'm stuck on one point.

Do you not see his number any time he texts you?

Can people in other countries block that?

We can block caller id from showing up in a phonecall, but not a text.

I'm confused

Sorry for the small hijack.

The text were from his email. Not his phone.

 

[Tease_U]

TYVM! It did hurt but now it actually doesnt matter. It just clicked when I realized how he avoided taking full responsibility for anything he had ever done by trying to, some how, into something I did to cause it or by bringing up things that are completely beside the point that you made. All to avoid accountability. I actually realized he did this from the beginning but we never really address the phone number thing, completely and he never offered his number until he realized that I was 'not going to stay'. not once in all of these weeks did he mention wanting to talk on the phone again UNTIL I said I just didnt want the number any more.

During all this, when trying to remain friends, he got up and went to get pie during us IMing, without bothering to tell me he was leaving. He also didnt even bother to say Happy Birthday to me. etc, etc. etc

I know now that I wasted a lot of time and energy on this man. I wasnt going to come back to Lit but, fuck him, I am here. I dont feel the need to avoid him any more. probably because the only energy I have vested in him now is contempt. I actually feel better than I have in a long time.

Wow he went to get pie........lmao that must be a federal offence......sorry.....just some of the drama stuff kills me. And it doesn't sound like you will be "fucking him" lol did you want to??? Looks like your sabatical is over. Most people don't stay away for ever...sounds like it is time for you 2 move on.....I am sure you have had many cyber buddies in the past and will find more PS just curouis how much time does one spend on a cyber realtionship.....I always thought it was supose to be fun and what ever happens happens.......just my 2 cents.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

The text were from his email. Not his phone.

Ok, thank you for that

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

Wow he went to get pie........lmao that must be a federal offence......sorry.....just some of the drama stuff kills me. And it doesn't sound like you will be "fucking him" lol did you want to??? Looks like your sabatical is over. Most people don't stay away for ever...sounds like it is time for you 2 move on.....I am sure you have had many cyber buddies in the past and will find more PS just curouis how much time does one spend on a cyber realtionship.....I always thought it was supose to be fun and what ever happens happens.......just my 2 cents.

Yes he went to get pie, without saying he was leaving the computer when we were having a convo. It is just the lack of consideration. Yes it was dramatic and I wasted almost 2 years on this 'man'. There is lots more he did but it doesnt matter any more. He doesnt matter any more. It stopped being fun long ago.

I dont want any more cyber buddies. I will stick to real life.