Necrophilia

[John Doe]

I can see what you are saying here and have to agree. More often than not such comments come from fear, learned behaviour, cultural pressures, and perhaps never thinking about the particular subject from a variety of angles. Even before I became involved in D/s, I could imagine how it would feel to lose someone you loved deeply and were loved by, and how it might extend to wanting to spend hours with that person's body (something that seems to freak many people out...when it became known I had visited and spent time alone with my father's body, many people were shocked and went as far as to say how they could never contemplate doing something like that...for me it was something I had to do for my own peace of mind, and it was the catalyst I needed), and in the case of a lover how that might extend to wanting to share a last intimacy. IMO it can include a variety of positive emotions, and in some ways even be ritualistic.

I always felt it was a strange phenomenon we institute in our contempory society when someone dies, we hand them over as quickly as possible to authorities once they have died, as if they are no longer useful, like discarded rubbish or toxic waste...that is how it sometimes appears to me in the way our authorities require this, and also feel it strange or unhealthy if you are not in a hurry to give up possession of the body of a loved one so they can 'get on with their job'. It is cold, it is abusive, and it is impersonal IMHO...hands on care and protection does not end with death for me. I remember a Jewish lecturer I had at university explaining one day to the class how he was part of a tradition whereby the deceased were not handed over to an impersonal funeral home, instead being prepared completely by members of the family and community as a final act of love and care. It touched me and made me realise my own thoughts were not sick or so strange, just I was born into the wrong culture or time whereby it was seen as more acceptable to hand over the body of one you love to someone who had never known them and to whom they were just a job to complete.

Catalina

After death the body is just an empty shell that should be disposed of by the most efficient means possible. Anything that is left of our former consciousness would then exist in a much higher form that doesn't need the physical body anymore.

Funerals are for the living, not the dead.

 

[NemoAlia]

I remember a Jewish lecturer I had at university explaining one day to the class how he was part of a tradition whereby the deceased were not handed over to an impersonal funeral home, instead being prepared completely by members of the family and community as a final act of love and care.

When my grandmother died, my mom could barely let go of her mother's body. She (and the nurse) washed my grandmother, changed her clothes, did her hair... And even when all that was finished, my mother just wanted to keep touching her. I think this is a common human impulse, the physical caring for a deceased loved one. And I think no one will ever fault another person for feeling this way.

'Tweren't necrophilia, though

Necrophilia is almost certainly one of those fantasies best left to fantasy and scripted "scenes." Like rape, in my opinion.

I think there might be a link between the desire to lose consciousness during a (breath play, or some similar kind of) BDSM scene and the desire to feign death for a fantasy-necrophilia scene. At least for me, this is where most of my "death" scenes come from. (Fortunately for my play partners, I've never had the accompanying desire to sing an aria or two whilst I expire!)

My friend, who is not into BDSM, loves to pretend that she's dead just so she gets to experience other people carrying her, arranging her, dressing her... It's not a sexual thing for her, and I'll admit to having thought, "That's just weird," when I first heard about it. But we all have our twists and turns. She is in it for the feeling of helplessness and curiosity about how other people would behave if they knew she would not respond at all.

Edited to fix grammar...

 

[NemoAlia]

My Dad passed away a week ago today.

Oh, Cati! I'm sorry to hear this. My thoughts are with you and your family.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Secondly, comparing necrophilia and homosexuality is like comparing bestiality to a shoe fetish. It's apples and oranges. For one thing, most homosexuals are well-adjusted, contributing members of society and I think most of them would also be offended to see you compare thier preference/orientation to something as reprehensible as corpse fucking.

It never ceases to amaze me when mentioning 2 things in the same sentence or paragragh, or even post, it is automatically jumped on by some people as saying both things are being siad to be the same without looking at what the real comparison was. Is it a matter of the judge's intelligence lacking, or are they just really bad at reading and deciphering the message and comprehending the content, or just don't bother taking the time...I like to think it is the latter. I did not see anywhere that the post was comparing homosexuality and necrophelia....what I did see was that Alice was comparing the similarities in responses/reactions from people who have issues dealing with either subject matter in a positive and accepting way, often based on lack of information or understanding the dynamics. She was presenting a classic response mode which has for centuries formed a basis for discrimination and ostracisation of people who do not conform to the accepted 'norm'.

Catalina

 

[NemoAlia]

Numerous studies have shown that people who experiment with sexually deviant behavior such as bestiality and necrophilia early in life are far more likely than anyone else to gop on to be child molestors/rapists, the obvious connection being -- you guessed it -- consent. . . . All three of which are what is known in the psychological vernacular as coercive paraphilias, and for good reason. . . .

Lots of people make this connection between necrophilia and rape. And the common issue of consent makes this a reasonable comparison. So mightn't those of us who roleplay rape scenarios (and I know there are at least one or two of us on this board who are into that sort of thing ) have a good starting point for understanding what trips the kink of folks who like to roleplay necrophilic scenes?

Yeah, it's a "darker side" of our minds, but fantasizing it -- exploring those cerebral shadows -- doesn't mean we're amoral, immoral menaces to society.

 

[O'Mac]

Lots of people make this connection between necrophilia and rape. And the common issue of consent makes this a reasonable comparison. So mightn't those of us who roleplay rape scenarios (and I know there are at least one or two of us on this board who are into that sort of thing ) have a good starting point for understanding what trips the kink of folks who like to roleplay necrophilic scenes?

Yeah, it's a "darker side" of our minds, but fantasizing it -- exploring those cerebral shadows -- doesn't mean we're amoral, immoral menaces to society.

I agree with most of what you said, but would still perfer to exercise a bit of caution. No-one wants to have their thoughts and feelings dictated to by someone else. It doesn't make anyone immoral or menacing in most respects, but once a certain line is crossed, the consequences can be quite far greater than a person had imagined.

 

[FurryFury]

<snip>

Yeah, it's a "darker side" of our minds, but fantasizing it -- exploring those cerebral shadows -- doesn't mean we're amoral, immoral menaces to society.

Fantasies are just that and in my opinion any fantasy is okay.

Now back to hypothesizing about RL. If my husband were dying and asked me to fuck him after death, I'd probably say yes, that's what you say to the dying. "Yes, yes dear, anything you want."

However, would I actually be able to do it? That is a different issue. I think it's unlikely that I would be in the frame of mind at his death that I could fuck anything. Death dries me up.

Just another issue with all this and one I may get slammed for, the dying can make crazy and sometimes terrible demands for promises. I don't believe they are binding. If you have someone over a barrel (in this case the emotional impact of your own imminent death) and extract a promise it's not absolutely binding IMO.

Fury

 

[catalina_francisco]

Just another issue with all this and one I may get slammed for, the dying can make crazy and sometimes terrible demands for promises. I don't believe they are binding. If you have someone over a barrel (in this case the emotional impact of your own imminent death) and extract a promise it's not absolutely binding IMO.

Fury

Don't think I could do that. If I was asked to do something I knew I could not, I would be as empathetic as possible, but firmly say 'no' and if need be explain my reasons. Dying or not, I am not going to let myself be backed into a corner and then wrestle with the guilt for the rest of my days, nor am I going to compromise my principles by promising that I could not knowlingly deliver...either way it would bring untold pressure and stress into my life that I don't need, so just easier to deal with it before it goes there.

Catalina

 

[cati]

Thanks everyone for your kind words of sympathy. I wouldn't have mentioned my Dad's passing except for the frustration I felt at some people's posts. I'm sure we all feel that way at times, here in Lit.

Kallista ...hugs back, please accept my apology? I think I received a mixed message when you offered your condolences and then accused me of calling people assinine more or less in the same breath *s


I think that acts of Necrophilia are mostly carried out by men, although there is a case on record concerning a female mortician.

 

[cati]

I'm sorry to hear about your Dad, Cati.

I have talked about my Dad's death in this thread. I'm not sorry that I have but each to their own.

Fury

Fury ... No need to apologize, I have run the gamut of opinion in this thread myself.
I think what I was trying to say and once again failing... is that in my personal view, the death of a family member or other...and how we feel about it, should not be confused with necrophilia.

I'm going to follow Rebecca out the door.... wavin'

 

[NemoAlia]

After death the body is just an empty shell that should be disposed of by the most efficient means possible. Anything that is left of our former consciousness would then exist in a much higher form that doesn't need the physical body anymore.

So... necrophilia is a victimless crime?

Okay, really I'm not so flippant about the issues at hand. Just making a point. If our bodies are nothing special after we leave them, then why do we have such strong emotions about how our bodies (or our the bodies of our loved ones) are treated after death? It's this visceral response, as well as our religious tenets, that keeps our morals regarding the treatment of corpses consistent.

And it's this visceral response that makes necrophilia such a powerful fantasy, for some people.

 

[Etoile]

It occurs to me to bring up voluntary cannibalism, too. Didn't that German guy still go to jail for cannibalism, even though the guy he ate consented to both the killing and the eating? Laws still apply to the dead - in fact, the state gets even more involved post-mortem than they are when you're alive.

 

[FurryFury]

I've often wondered about how people tend to revere the decaying flesh that used to house us too but this is the way of things for whatever reason.

Fury

 

[O'Mac]

It occurs to me to bring up voluntary cannibalism, too. Didn't that German guy still go to jail for cannibalism, even though the guy he ate consented to both the killing and the eating? Laws still apply to the dead - in fact, the state gets even more involved post-mortem than they are when you're alive.

I remember that case, now that you've mentioned it. The victim had met the flesh-eater online and after a few meet-and-greets, agreed to have his penis cut-off and ate it along with him. Afterwards, the victim was killed and cooked up after leaving a note or something like that claiming it was all planned and carried out with consent. Nasty shit if you ask me.



I'm going to reinterate on this by saying:

Cannibalism: Probably not a good idea either.

 

[alice_underneath]

I did not see anywhere that the post was comparing homosexuality and necrophelia....what I did see was that Alice was comparing the similarities in responses/reactions from people who have issues dealing with either subject matter in a positive and accepting way, often based on lack of information or understanding the dynamics. She was presenting a classic response mode which has for centuries formed a basis for discrimination and ostracisation of people who do not conform to the accepted 'norm'.

Thank you, Catalina. Yes, that is exactly the comparison that I was trying to make.

The reason that I mentioned responses to homosexuality is that those are the voices I am hearing from the American 'mainstream' today. As I mentioned on Andante's thread, my community is regrettably still mired in a debate on whether or not homosexual behavior is "moral".

Alice

 

[raven2]

Thank you, Catalina. Yes, that is exactly the comparison that I was trying to make.

The reason that I mentioned responses to homosexuality is that those are the voices I am hearing from the American 'mainstream' today. As I mentioned on Andante's thread, my community is regrettably still mired in a debate on whether or not homosexual behavior is "moral".

Alice

I would guess that would depend on your definition of "moral".

 

[alice_underneath]

I would guess that would depend on your definition of "moral".

I am not aroused by the idea of sexual contact with corpses. I have no interest in roleplaying necrophilic scenes, and no personal reason for pushing to legalize necrophilic activity.

However, I have not yet heard a solid moral argument for condemning those who do.

Religion

"Behold the menacing arrival of the supreme Judge. He is coming, he is coming to end evil, crown the just, reward the right, set the worried free, and give the skies."

With all due respect to people of faith, I must say that proclamations of that type fall flat with me. I respect your right to conduct your own life per your religious tenets, but I do not think you have the right to condemn others on the same basis.

Consent

I have already given legal consent for my body to be used after my death.

Standing at the counter at the Department of Motor Vehicles, I checked a box and signed my name on a piece of paper - with the result that a simple code was imprinted on my driver's license.

In my state, a driver's license is a legal document regarding organ and tissue donation. This document gives a hospital the right to inform my family that I will be an organ donor, instead of asking them.

This leads me to the conclusion that if we as a society accepted necrophilia as a legitimate urge, the issue of consent would be very easy to deal with.

Immediate Burial vs. Use of a Dead Body

As part of Anatomy class, medical students dissect human cadavers.

I have stood within a few feet of the frozen remains of the Incan "Ice Maiden", displayed in a museum.

As a society, we clearly do not embrace an absolute notion that human remains must be promptly and respectfully buried. Fact is: human bodies are already being used for research, education, and display.

Of course, there is a difference in the value of those goals to society as a whole, as compared to individual sexual gratification.

But the point here is that the use of a body itself is not something that we as a society condemn.

Health

Along with timing and venue issues, I view this as a practical reason for outlawing necrophilic activity, not a moral one.

Alice

 

[catalina_francisco]

I remember that case, now that you've mentioned it. The victim had met the flesh-eater online and after a few meet-and-greets, agreed to have his penis cut-off and ate it along with him. Afterwards, the victim was killed and cooked up after leaving a note or something like that claiming it was all planned and carried out with consent. Nasty shit if you ask me.



I'm going to reinterate on this by saying:

Cannibalism: Probably not a good idea either.

Last I heard it was being brought up again in court to be reheard..I believe he did more than leave a note...think they made a video of him giving consent as well as him selling up and dispersing of his worldly goods before going off to meet his cannibal.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

A really good reason to avoid necrophilia: all that jostling is bound to loosen any not-already-released excreta. And, um, that's just...ew.

 

[Quint]

I didn't really get into this thread the first time around, but I'm glad I made my way through it. I can really understand all sides of this issue. The only thing that keeps me at ease with the concept is the premise that the person has consented beforehand to this being done to them.

I'm thinking of stories on the news about people sexually abusing mentally or physically retarded patients, and how absolutely and unconditionally unethical I find that. Nonconsenting necro hits me not quite so hard. I guess I believe that if the person's anima (for want of a better word) still exists after death, it has better things to do than stick around some flesh; there's something more repugnant in my mind about taking advantage of a living person, regardless of if they are fully aware of what is happening to them. Yet I can see why some people would react just as strongly to the violation of the deceased, out of respect for that person's memory and relation to the living.

Playing dead? Sure, I'll do it--and have--without feeling any guilt. I read a description of a woman lying in a tub filled with cold water almost to the point of hypothermia so that her lover could fuck her clammy body, and yeah, it's not repulsive to me. Like Nemo said, that's like enacting a rape fantasy; it doesn't even touch on the horror of the real thing to me.

 

[O'Mac]

Originally Posted by O'Mac
I remember that case, now that you've mentioned it. The victim had met the flesh-eater online and after a few meet-and-greets, agreed to have his penis cut-off and ate it along with him. Afterwards, the victim was killed and cooked up after leaving a note or something like that claiming it was all planned and carried out with consent. Nasty shit if you ask me.



I'm going to reinterate on this by saying:

Cannibalism: Probably not a good idea either.

Last I heard it was being brought up again in court to be reheard..I believe he did more than leave a note...think they made a video of him giving consent as well as him selling up and dispersing of his worldly goods before going off to meet his cannibal.

Yeah, actually I think there may have been a videotaped recording or something along those lines with the victim giving consent. I think they both really went to lengths to cover themselves legally-speaking. I doubt the verdict would be overturned, though. I wouldn't say Germany is a overly-conservative sorta place (actually fairly liberal-minded when it comes to sexuality and personal freedoms), but I don't think the courts would allow a case of cannibilism to go unpunished, despite the circumstances.

 

[Kajira Callista]

so i wonder

If i posted to this thread saying that i would fuck my dead Master if i was told to...and asked if anyone would know if that would actually work.
Or if i expressed my fantasy for being drugged to the point of seeming dead but with all my senses working,then used long and hard in any way the other person saw fit....would anyone be wanting to actually continue a serious adult discussion?

 

[Etoile]

If i posted to this thread saying that i would fuck my dead Master if i was told to...and asked if anyone would know if that would actually work.
Or if i expressed my fantasy for being drugged to the point of seeming dead but with all my senses working,then used long and hard in any way the other person saw fit....would anyone be wanting to actually continue a serious adult discussion?

Yes, it actually sounds like a couple of very interesting discussions.

 

[FurryFury]

I thought stiffness went with dead so I think it's doable. If not perhaps some starch or something might help. *smiles*

As for the second part, well I have some ideas like that running around in my head lately. Said thoughts may get written up in something.

So sure, I'm always up for conversation that are interesting, when I'm online.

Fury

 

[Quint]

You know me, babe...I'm always up to chat with you! Seriously, neither of those thoughts hit me in a "don't wanna go there mentally" place. And the second has been a very yummy hot button for me for a long time.