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Okay, I feel like sinking my claws into something substantial, who wants feedback?

cellis...

Painful to read, but probably a lot of fun to write. When you write a certain amount of distance is required for you to communicate effectively with your reader. You, regretfully, really didn't do that. Writing is about communication. Good writers are able to communicate the full of a story to a reader with a minimum of explanations.

I picture you writing this with a specific lover in mind and how he would come into your house and have his way with you. Your eyes would be closed while you dreamed it up and your mind would be full of how erotic it is for you while you write it down. Essentially, you wrote it as an ode to him. Yes? Anyway, the problem is that when you write in such a limited scope and in such a limited distance, then you really should just let whomever you wrote it for read it. He will be touched by your use of language and the average reader who has no idea who you are won't be.

Yes, your use of the language was the glaring problem here. It's very flowery and very romantic. It's also very hard to read, almost impossible to sink into, and gives one the queer feeling that one might be reading a 13 year old's fantasy.

"She closes her eyes behind the scarf. She cannot believe he has come to her. She is happy beyond words. His presence fills her. He completes her being. This is the hardest part for her. This, being here, bound and naked, unable to touch him, is the hardest thing for her. She knows he will not hurt her, knows this deep in her soul. It is hard for her because she knows she can please him, how to pleasure him. But to lay here and be the recipient is more than difficult. She is a giver and to receive is more difficult than she thought. She longs to touch him, to feel his skin beneath her hand. "

This is, quite possibly, the worst part. I'm being very negative here, but for a reason. None of this forwards the story. WhisperSecret has a very sage piece of advice. If it doesn't forward the plot, it doesn't belong in the story. If you've got a spare ten bucks laying around, pick up Strunk & White's Elements of Style. If not, the biggest style rule that you could find the most use from is "Cut all unnecessary words."

Mickey's Rule, as I'm starting to call it, is a very important one. "Show, don't tell." You're entire story is telling, not showing. What you have is a lengthy treatise on how cellis feels about the events. We don't have much, if any, from the characters themselves. "She is happy beyond words." seems like a nice piece of showing the audience how the character feels, right? But it's not coming from her, it's coming from cellis. The key difficult is the word "is" in this sentence. You are telling us that she is happy. She is not showing us that she is happy.

You aren't your characters even if you're writing about yourself and your fantasies. When you write yourself as a character, then you leave out a lot of things, you can't help it, that are vital to good storytelling. You leave out important details that tell the story and put in things that you feel that don't tell the story.

A few more pieces of friendly advice. Get out of present tense. It doesn't work for you. Don't write about yourself, write about someone else until you're able to distance yourself from your story enough to write about yourself. I've never learned the knack. Write to an audience of people you don't know. Remember that you are the narrator, we should not see your voice in there, we should see it from the characters themselves.

I hope this helps you, I really do.
 
Thank you, Killer Muffin, for taking the time to read my story... and I do understand what you are saying, LOL, as brutal as you are, I trust you to tell the truth. I want to learn to be a better writer. I am not certain though, how to remove myself or my fantasies from the story. I don't want to make the same mistake again, and I am not certain how to make the dialogue advance the story. I will work on it though.

Thanks, again, I truly do appreciate it.
 
I would appreciate anyone reading and giving some constructive comments on my latest story. An attempt at combining my interest in history with my enjoyment of writing erotca / pornography (I refuse to get into the problem of drawing the distinction between the two. There is a very flexible barrier - I am writing an essay on that at the moment.

The story is "Juliana's Last Stand" New stories/erotic couplings

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=35635

Have I got this link creating right?

jon.hayworth
 
Thank you Ma'am. May I have another.

Seriously. I am flattered by the length and detail of your discussion.

I was worried about switching to female voice and spent a lot more time on that story. The other story was written at a single sitting. It is somewhat gratifying to know that the extra effort paid off. If what you are saying is that he is just a guy with the balls to try something, while she is a mature individual capable of weighing risks, fears and desires, you have a point.

Concerning Sean's character, your point is well taken. I am, like most people I think, firmly holding an image of some sort in my mind, but I can only see parts since I am very close. Occasionally the character will turn and show another profile. To stretch the metaphor further, I am much closer to him than I am to her. In Sean's case I see very clearly his need to take chances, surmount challanges and his keen insight into details of body communication. His flaw, that he is excessively literal, really does not come into this story.

All this is obvious to me as the author, since I not only invented the person but the world he lives in. What I hear you saying is that it is not obvious to the reader. That is indeed a failing. What Sean was born of is a "what if?" impulse. What if a Mistress offered the use of her dungeon, and got the opposite answer she intended? From there I needed to develop a picture of the kind of guy who would do something so theatrical and unexpected.

Sheila was harder. I needed someone who would let him get away with it. So I needed someone who was both an authority figure with an image problem and someone used to taking orders. My image of her is that she does not see her body as unattractive, but as disfuntional in an athletic sense. Respectfully disagreeing here, she does do something to attract attention to her supposed imperfection. She wears a corset. She cannot force her body to perform as she wishes it to, so she confines it. The rest of her clothes are costuming and makeup.

Sean fits the space in her life which had belonged to her dance instructor. If I understand you, what makes her interesting is that Sean is not a perfect fit for the role, and Sheila needs to adjust her perceptions accordingly. If you know the movie "Big", there is a lot of Susan in her. She has poise, determination, and courage in addition to the physical attributes. I happen to like her a great deal.

Some comments on other points. I wish you were the first to complain about my passive voice. Even your fragment example is shorthand for the passive voice "She was smiling." I will try to improve, but it is a long standing habit. Your point on italics is well taken. That will corrected. Finally, I am pleased that you did not feel promted to point out usage of overpriced words. Since I am noted for using words like commiserate and prediliction in conversation, this is something of an achievement. Now if I could only learn to spell them...

Once again. Thank you very much for your input. You may excoriate me any time.

J

PS I won my fantasy football league this year. Sean on the other hand could live in South Bend and not notice that Notre Dame fielded a team.:D

PPS I wrote his first.
 
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Okay Killer, you can forget the email; I am figuring this stuff out little by little. Here are a few of my twenty-eight chapters that are posted under Novels & Novellas as "No Controlling Legal Authority." I am somewhere around a year and five hundred pages into this project, so a little direction might be appropriate.

Give me your best shot/claw, whatever. You appear to be pretty good at this stuff, and, since I already have a job, it's not like life or death hang in balance.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=31317
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=31318
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=31319
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=31320
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=31321

With thanks,

thescribe
 
In Search of Bouquets and Brickbats.

It's probably a sign of a mis-spent youth that here in my dotage I've just posted a two part story, Dis-Orderly Conduct Ch 1 & 2 (should have been called "parts" not "chapters".

Any input from you would be appreciated, especially your thoughts on the time, scene, and POV shifts plus the quality (or lack of the same) of the "sexually oriented content". The stories are listed under Erotic Couplings and are curretnly also in the New section. Here are the URL's. Many thanks. RF

Ch.1 http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=35740

Ch.2 http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=36473
 
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Hey, Muff, I know you don't expect anything in exchange for your critiques, but I was thinking...

What if you asked these authors to give feedback to one of the people asking for it on the Story Feedback board before you'll pick apart their story? Sorta like the redux idea, but only for your 'clients.'

Just an idea.
 
What would be really ultra cool is if every author who requests feedback in this forum would go through the many threads of other authors requesting feedback, pick one, and give their opinion on the piece. That way, you're helping other authors, and those you help would probably be much more amenable to giving you feedback in return. Poor KM is taking the weight of the forum on her shoulders! I think the forum would benefit from many voices with different approaches.
 
Laurel said:
What would be really ultra cool is if every author who requests feedback in this forum would go through the many threads of other authors requesting feedback, pick one, and give their opinion on the piece. That way, you're helping other authors, and those you help would probably be much more amenable to giving you feedback in return. Poor KM is taking the weight of the forum on her shoulders! I think the forum would benefit from many voices with different approaches.
Click to expand...

Great idea Laurel. I am nowhere near as articulate as KM and others but would be willing to help.

KM you are a great person. :)
 
You're VERY articulate, debbiexxx. And more importantly, you have an opinion. As you know from writing, authors basically want to know if their piece was effective. If you can read a piece and tell them if it leaves you cold or leaves you inspired - and pinpoint what about the story soars or falls flat - then you're helping them out.

But it's not a selfless endeavor. We can all learn a lot about effective writing by analyzing other people's stories. It's easier to see what works and doesn't work in another author's piece than it is to see in our own. You might see something that reads poorly, and you can make a mental note to avoid that in your own stories. You might see some device or slant that is brilliant, and file that away for future reference.

You all have a community of fellow writers at your disposal. Use that to your advantage. Read their stories. Read their criticisms of other stories. Critique their stories. Read & evaluate critiques of your work. Use your fellow authors shamelessly to improve your writing! :devil:
 
The only reason I suggested that KM do it, is because people seem to crave her input. This is because she practically gives your a private tutorial with each critique. With this prize dangling before them, I thought that other writers might be more motivated. She's doing the critiques already out of the goodness of her heart, and I didn't think I was putting any further pressure on her. Rather, I hoped I was putting pressure on the hungry authors.

I mean, let's face it. We can tell people until we're blue in the fact that critiquing others helps your own writing, and that it will foster a great sense of community, but the fact is that it's too much trouble for most of us to get off our duffs and even write a couple of sentences.

Few of us here are motivated by a sense of wanting to help. That's the way of our ME ME ME society. (Brief soapbox statement.) Which is why I suggested that KM require a critique from her clients before giving the tangible reward of her valuable input.
 
I've been busy thinking about someone's story, here, not about feedback from others. I've given up on that pipe-dream for a while. I think that a few people have shown up in the board lately that have taken an intelligent, active contribution to this forum, which is very nice.

I wish everyone who asked for feedback participated in the board as well. Then this would a fascinating place to visit and discuss the subject of writing, critiques, and improvements. Why? Because more voices are always more interesting than one or two voices. I don't see it happening. I'm disillusioned again.

On a personal note, everyone should watch Shrek.
 
rigged4dive

Now this was a toughie to give a good critique to. Your writing is superb. It has a good feel to it, you're talking to me, not at my general direction. You've got a comfortable voice and an easy way of using expression. Good writing forgives a lot of things.

The scene was tightly written, no seriously extraneous things that detract from it. You kept the plot moving forward like it should, not too fast, not too slow. However, I didn't actually find much of a plot.

The opening paragraph promised a fascinating look into a young woman doing something completely out of the ordinary and the story never followed through with it. I found that to be highly disappointing and it took away from the plot. There was no closure. It was, in all actuality, like reading the first chapter of a book.

Another problem was with character motivation. I don't know why she did the things that she did. Even in a first person story you should be able to see a glimmering of why people are doing things through their behavior. First she goes onto the boat with him in the first place. It's night. It's in a remote area. It's near a large city where crime is prevelant. She goes with a strange man with nearly no fuss. He didn't even have to convince her.

This highlights one of the biggest errors:

"If you're waiting for the guy that lives here, I heard he went down to Mexico. Vacation or something."

"Oh."

Her shoulders slumped a bit, and she sounded disappointed.

"If you want to wait a while, you could wait on my boat. It's warm, dry, and right over there. You can see the lights go on if he comes home."

Think about that objectively, as it is. He went to Mexico. On vacation or something. What is the implication here? He went to another country (doesn't matter how close it is, there's a border to cross) and presumably it was on vacation. The implication is that he went on an extended trip of some sort. Reasonably, such a trip takes more than a day, particularly with the word vacation. Why in the heck would she want to wait a little longer? I wouldn't. He went on vacation, I'd check back in the morning or try to track him down. This was a very poor bridge.

The next character issue is when she invites him into the bathroom with her. For the life of me, I can't imagine why she'd do that. No indication is given in the text. I understand that it's a first person story so that makes things all the more difficult. You have to show us what the people around your primary character are like by their behavior. Their behavior is the only true clue that your audience will have.

If she's going to carry on with a strange man like she's doing, you'll have to work a little harder at making it believable. A man would have no qualms, but women are generally more hesitant about such goings on. You have to set it up by the way she behaves prior to her ever getting on the boat. And if you want the primary character to remain ignorant of her opinions on the matter, then you'll have to do it in such a way that her notions are clear with non-verbal cues, and he doesn't notice them during the entire time he sees and reports them.

Your transistions are rather weak. Moving from one portion of the story to the next. Moving from the dock to his boat, from the conversation to bed, that sort of thing. You're not taking enough time with them, probably. They're hidden with some very clever prose, but the mistakes are there.

We talked about everything, and nothing at all, and as we talked, all the tension seemed to leave her. The over wound springs and coils loosening over good conversation, and good rum. I began to drift in that contented, quiet reverie which seems peculiar to the male of the species, and she asked the inevitable question.

"What are you thinking?"

Just as women are born with the genetic predisposition to ask that question of men, men are born with an equal genetic certainty that whole civilizations might crumble and fall if they ever learn the true answer.

We're not.

We are just drifting in that pleasant thoughtless void that women can never seem to capture, and thus, can never comprehend. So I told her that I was contemplating my good fortune that the strange gentleman that lived at slip F18 had decided to go to Mexico at this particular time. And in saying that, somehow it became the truth. She looked preoccupied for a moment, and then leaned close, and took my hand.

"So, what else does this, "full service plan," include Mister Casey?"

I searched her face for any trace of uncertainty in what she was saying, and found none. It seemed that this was something we both needed very badly. I took her hand, and led her back to the big master stateroom.

Once again, I'm left wondering why she did it and how he arrived at the conclusion that she needed sex badly, or that she was even referring to sex.

Another thing we should discuss is speech tags. I'm firmly in Strunk's camp on this one. Speech tags are all adverbs and adverbs are bad things in descriptive narratives. Why? "Hello," he growled in her ear. "Hello." The heat of his breath and the low rumble of his voice tickled her ear. Which is better? If you must use a speech tag, stick with only the word said. In an exchange between two characters you never need said, but you'll see said and all of its buddies in there all the time. Effective dialogue isn't just what they say, it's how they say it. Using adverbs as your sole source of description in how a character says something is poor writing. You don't do that, but you do rely on them heavily. Whispersecret has a fabulous How-To on how to make your characters speak.

Another error that you're fond of is the run-on. Icky stuff. They are more forgivable in first person because you're speaking with someone's mental voice and that's not perfect in speech. However, there are mistakes that you made with run-on that people don't make in their thinking. Here's an example:

I lightly flicked my tongue across the smooth skin of her back, slowly making my way downward, and pausing to pay special attention to the little dimples just above her hips.

Count the predicates. You're wrong, there is only one. Gerunds are not predicates. I'm going to whack up this sentence for you now. You have three parts. "I lightly flicked my tongue across the smooth skin of her back," "slowly making my way downward," "and pausing to pay special attention to the little dimples just above her hips." You have one independent clause and two dependent clauses. An independent clause stands alone, by itself, as a sentence. The other two do not. If you read them as a sentence, you'll see they don't make sense. "slowly..." is extra information that's stuck in there, which is why you highlighted it with commas. Take it out and you have: "I lightly flicked my tongue across the smooth skin of her back and pausing to pay special attention to the little dimples just above her hips." Can you see the mistake now? Pausing isn't a predicate and it should be. It should be paused. Add the "slowly..." in there and your use of pause makes sense. If you'd rather, change moving to moved and you have a list of actions that "I" did, which would make even more sense, grammatically speaking.

I only highlighted this rather than thought of it as a typo because you did this several times when your sentences became more complex.

Hope this helps.
 
It does indeed help!

You are absolutely right on all counts.

As for the character motivation and non-plot, that was a problem from the outset. The darn story kept wanting to wander off in it’s own direction. I had to grab it by the scruff of the neck, jerk it back into line, and remind it that it was supposed to be a short erotic story.

I have cut out the paragraph you wrote about speech tags, blown it up, and hung it over my desk.

The run-on sentences are a very tough habit to break, but I’ll work on it.

Thank you for taking the time, not only to read my story, but also to give such an in-depth critique. I realize how much time it must take you to do this. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
 
Whispersecret said:
The only reason I suggested that KM do it, is because people seem to crave her input. This is because she practically gives your a private tutorial with each critique. With this prize dangling before them, I thought that other writers might be more motivated. She's doing the critiques already out of the goodness of her heart, and I didn't think I was putting any further pressure on her. Rather, I hoped I was putting pressure on the hungry authors.
Click to expand...

I definitely don't disagree with you. KM - just like you, WS - puts in a lot of work, and her critiques are excellent. She deserves not only a little quid pro quo but also a big heaping pile of fine chocolate for her efforts (authors take note: she loves good guacamole too!). I'm definitely not expecting everyone to put in the kind of time that she puts in, but I'm sure at some point with her school & all she won't be able to commit so much time to critiques, With this in mind, if everyone took time out to find an unanswered feedback request thread and take 5 minutes to read the story and write a brief reaction to the piece, it would be a good thing.
 
I know you're a FAST reader, Laurel, and I am too, but it would take me more than five minutes to read most of the stories here. :) But I certainly understand your point.

KM, my how to on speaking deals only with punctuation and little else. :)
 
I would be happy to read some of the stories and help out with them.... While my own writings are under construction, and I am working to make them better, I am very good at knowing what I like and why. I am good at grammar and understand the way the English language works... And while I will never be in the KillerMuffin league... I would be happy to help in any way I can... So if any of you have a story that you would like me to look over, just let me know...
 
For those looking for stories to critique, you can always check out the Story Discussion Forum. A different story every week, and if you can always nominate your stories to get posted and reviewed as well.

Feedback is like karma-- you get back what you give. The more you give, the more you get back.
 
Hi, my name is Quinn Hemmingway. I'd like some feedback
on my work. Be brutal, I don't mind. Besides, it's the only
way that I'm going to learn. Peace.....

Stories On The Board: Non -Erotic

"Dance Without Sleep"
"Concertina"
"Miranda McMullen"
"The Mighty Quinn"

Erotic-Celebrities

"The Visitor"
"Caroline Rhea Goes To College"
 
Hi, my name is Quinn Hemmingway. I'd like some feedback.
Be brutal, I don't mind. That's the only way that I'm going
to learn. Peace....

Non-Erotic Stories

"Concertina"
"Miranda McMullen"
"Dance Without Sleep"
"The Mighty Quinn"

Erotic-Celebrities

"The Visitor"
"Caroline Rhea Goes To College"
 
SexyLadyUK

The highlight of today's critique is "Show, don't tell." Like a good strip show, a story slowly reveals all the delicious bits. It teases the audience until they're ready to pop, then gives them the climax that leaves them sated and wanting more. A stripper doesn't tell how she does it, she just does it.

A very good example of how to tell:

They had met in a chat room on the Internet and gotten along well from the start. Molly was a couple of years older than Rein but still they had a lot in common.

Over the months that followed they became very close and Molly had confided in her a sexual attraction to women. They began talking more intimately on a regular basis and feelings stirred inside Rein, deep sexual longings that had been buried away.

The shared fantasies and desires, and talked on the phone regularly taking part in mutual masturbation. Bringing them selves to climax while whispering desperately, lovingly to each other.

How can you tell it's telling and not showing? What's the difference anyway? Your first clue that it's "telling" is the word "they." The only person who would refer to the characters as "they" would be the narrator, there are exceptions to this, but they're the kind you never notice. There are times in a story when the narrator's voice is heard over the characters' voices. In a short story this should pretty much be never. In novels you have more leeway. The reason for this is entirely grounded in "reader interest." I know, you've only got a few thousand words so it's easier to write than a novel which has upwards of 50,000 words. Well, that's not exactly so. One of the most difficult forms to master is the short story because you've only got a few thousand words to tell the whole story and keep it interesting. The way to keep it interesting is to keep the narrator out of it. When you read that little excerpt, how hard is it to keep your eyes from skipping down and just skimming it? It's harder for the rest of us because we didn't write it.

How do you fix it? How do you show? You have the characters tell the story. She should be standing nervously at the bus stop, jiggling around and wondering if she should call a cab. She should remember the chat room and think about how hot it made her and how much she looked forward to the meeting. That engages the readers interest.

We're the worst sort of voyuers here at Lit. It's not enough to see the people fucking, we want to know them as people and know what they think and feel about it. That means we want to climb into the characters heads. Think about that when you read a few stories. Think back to your favorites. What made you like it better than the one you back clicked out of not so long ago? Aside from spelling and grammar issues.

Mechanics. This is a little painful. Here are a few rules with examples randomly pulled from the story:

Rein smiled back, an observation crossing her mind, 'Funny I thought she'd be taller'. All punctuation goes inside the final quotation mark. "...taller.'"

A note about "quotation marks:" You are not wrong to use ' instead of " even if some cad emails you and tells you so. American convention is " and UK convention is ' You'll see more " here because this is an American originated site.

say's It's "says."

'I want to kiss you…' Ellipses (...) marks are used to indicate that part of a quotation was removed. You can see it used correctly three paragraphs up from here. Now. In fiction you aren't quoting Margaret Thatcher, you're quoting your characters. That's what speech is, fictional quotations. When a character leaves something off of the beginning or end of speech, you use ellipses. Think of it more as fading off without saying everything. That's the convention. I can't tell if you've used it correctly or not in that regard so I'd consider it correct. Now. Ellipses come in two varieties and two only. (...) and (....) No more or less. The (....) is used at the end of the sentence. The (...) is used all other times. The final (.) in the four series is punctuation after punctuation. You may replace that with commas, question marks, exclamation points, semi-colons, whatever fits your fancy.

:)
 
Killer Muffin... or anyone else out there...

I haven't done much with my writing lately, not since I found the poetry board here at literotica. But I did submit a story recently. Preacher Manhttp://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=36569
It's a quick read. I'd appreciate it if you could check it out when time allows. I'd love to have some ideas about what's working and not working in this story. At this point, I have no idea.

Thanks,
WE
 
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