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Okay, I feel like sinking my claws into something substantial, who wants feedback?

jon.hayworth...

Good job. The language is so rich it took me a few read throughs to find anything wrong. I enjoyed the story enough to miss the oopsies the first time through. The hallmark of good writing, I think.

Your favorite mistake is by far the incomplete sentence. You leave out subjects and predicates rather frequently, actually.

The light sparkled in her copper blonde hair. Glanced off the defined muscle tone of her exercise honed arms.

See it? No?

Glanced off the defined muscle tone of her exercise honed arms.

How about now? No subject. They seem to crop up the most often in description rather than after speech or in the action.

Another annoyance that I noted was your method of tagging speech. When you did tag it, you punctuated incorrectly. Speech tags are adverbs or adverbial clauses. They aren't complete in themselves. The clause they must be linked to is in the quotation marks. "Hello," he said. Not "Hello." He said. It also works He said, "Hello." Not he said. "Hello." It's a consistent error.

One thing about tags that you have a problem with is judiciuos usage.

"Shut up whore!" The bloated merchant Carrodus mumbled as he rubbed sleep from his eyes.

Do you see any problems with this? "Shut up whore!" (yelling) he mumbled. Shut up is connotative of yelling. When you couple it with a ! the reader naturally assumes loud voices. Usually, we leave the speech adverb out.

"Shut up, whore!" The bloated merchant Carrodus rubbed sleep from his eyes.

Which do you like better?

On down the story:

"I'm always on top." Was her growled response.

Okay, these are the facts. You have two women talking to each other. The conversation is very easy to follow. The only purpose for tagging speech with "said" words is to clarify who is speaking. Growled is an adverb. The trouble with using adverbs is that they tend to take the brunt of description and they don't describe. "I'm always on top." Her snarling response matched her snarling mood. Or something.

Adverbs have an additional stigma, that nasty telling not showing thing. Speech tags come from the narrator, not the characters. The narrator is using adverbs to editorialize a little on how s/he thought the character spoke. Characters don't think "snapped." Characters think, "Damn, the bitch bit my head off, wonder what crawled up her ass and died?"

Now, telling isn't always a bad thing, but in a short story you don't have the luxury of thousands upon thousands of words to let the reader get to know the characters, so it's usually better if the characters do it themselves.

Mechanically... Do you have something against the comma? It's missing in a lot of places. Go here: http://www.bartleby.com/141/ Read Part II, numbers 2-5.
 
Elipse

Just a comment on the use of the elipse.
I agree that there are two forms of the elipse (...) and (....), however I have an inclination that the uses thereof may have been innacurrately described.

The (...) elipse is used to indicate one of two things (with examples offered for each):

1. The removal of words from the original text within a quotation.

original: "The defendants, as well as all of the named third parties, have been found liable for damages."

elipsical (? hehe): "The defendants...have been found liable...."

Any words deleted in favour of the (...) elipse must be presumed not to have altered the required or relevant meaning.

NOTE: Folowing the word "liable" there appears to be a (....) elipse. I submit it is merely a (...) elipse followed by a period.

2. The other use of the (...) elipse would be to indicate, in a dialogue, that one character's speech has "trailed off."

example: She spoke quietly as she walked through the house, "I had the keys in my hand and then I came in here to...."

Which is also, I like to think, a (...) elipse folowed by a period, rather than a (....) elipse.

The (....) elipse is more rare. I believe it is used to indicate the removal or deletion of a larger block of text from a quoted original. My experience with it is, admittedly, limted to the field of legal writing, but it seems to be consistently applied in other academic fields as well.

The (....) elipse indicates the removal of substantially more than a few words. Without going into too much by way of example, this might be illustrative of what I mean:

Once upon a time, a long, long time ago,
....
The End.

The (....) elipse is always, when I encounter it, given it's own line, thus breaking the material into two distinct parts - that which comes before the deletion and that which follows.

All the best.

;)
 
In other words, like I've quoted from punctuation texts and I've stated myself. Use the ellipses to indicate cutting out of words.

I'm glad we agree. :)
 
KillerMuffin said:
In other words, like I've quoted from punctuation texts and I've stated myself. Use the ellipses to indicate cutting out of words.

I'm glad we agree. :)
Click to expand...

Frankly, I use elipses, sometimes, to indicate a...thoughtful pause in speech. I have even used them to seperate a series of general thoughts...broad concepts...into progressively smaller subdivisions...delineating a more detailed analysis. This usually occurs in situations where the comma appears cluttered to my eye (ear?) and the semicolon unwieldy. Not that the foregoing constitutes fair application of the principle...I'm being dramatic.

While I agree that there is a standard convention (although I'm honestly not certain what it is and find myself laughably uninterested in whatever it might try to impose), I would certainly yield to your greater interest in the subject and puncutation texts on that point. If I ever encounter an authoritative source on the distinction between the (...) elipse and its well endowed acquaintance, (....), I'll be certain to post again.

How one uses words, punctuation included, has more to do with what one hopes to express, I think, than anything else. Rules and conventions are good only so long as they assist in improving the quality of communication...does following the rule assist in communicating the message? I think, in the vast majority of cases, it does. Thus your value as an editor.

It is certain that without any agreement as to how to spell and puncuate, written commuication would be impossible. But it is also true that steadfast adherence to the rules of spelling, grammar and puncuation may stifle true expression in fact sometimes I like to employ a runon sentence to make a character appear breathless and excited as if they are trying to get too much information out in one breath.
A Clockwork Orange, Dr. Suess, Jabberwocky, On the Road...literature is replete with examples of art that could not be constrained by the rules; communication which invented its own rules, its own language and successfully taught the audience how to read it.

I was merely tossing in a couple coppers worth on the difference between...and..... Don't even get me started on the -.
I know I misuse the - - have been doing it for years. Sometimes I use the - in place of...so it can get pretty confusing - especially when I use both - and...in the same sentence.

Respectfully,
 
Damn it, I know I logged in that last time. Just in case it didn't take this time either, the above two posts are from rigged4dive.
 
Unregistered said:



http://www.bartleby.com/68/58/2158.html
Click to expand...


Seems pretty straightforward...but I think I want more from the elipsis. I think it wants more responsibility...an expanded role...it wants to kick ass and take names...it's sayin', "Hey, Baby...I'm all that and a slice of toast!"

Fuck you, Bartleby! I shall salt and pepper the humble elipse throughout my scribbling. Take that!
 
Oh yeah...Elipsis

Unregistered said:



http://www.bartleby.com/68/58/2158.html
Click to expand...

Bartleby's only reference to the (....) elipsis is in the "end of the sentence" application. This indicates that there is no true (....) elipsis - it's a (...) elipsis followed by a period, which period may be replaced with any other suitable puncuation...!

I believe there IS a (....) elipsis, which is used to denote the removal of substanitally more text than a few words within a sentence. My original expample of how one might used:

Once upon a time, a long, long time ago,
....
The End

The (....) elipsis is afforded its own line, thus further distinguishing it from the common and foreshortnened (...).

Cheers,
 
Could we carry on this discussion on a different thread, please. You may agree/disagree with me all you like, I'm don't have a problem with that.

People who click this open (I'm assuming) are looking for feedback on their specific work, not a discussion of punctuation.

If you'd care to offer feedback on stories rather than my feedback on other people's work, please do so.
 
Quite so....

My apologies. I shant clutter your workspace again.
Thank you for your kind offer regarding feedback. I'll leave the rending and tearing to the clawed one.
 
Christo...

Pretty good, as usual. Your main character was perfectly human and someone I could identify with. The twins were a little less "touchable," but that's a difficulty to overcome with first person perspective. The trick is to show the audience what they're really like despite the frequently wrong editorializations from the main character. You didn't have a whole lot of that, though by necessity there was some.

For instance, take the part where he drops Lynn off from the first date. Then he hears "Do you like him, too?" That didn't even blip on my radar. He had to explain to me why it blipped on his radar. That should have sent warning signals to me that something was less than kosher without a blueprint. That's pretty much the norm. When he suspects something that the twins are up to, it's normally something he has to point out to me. The spot with the marker wasn't too bad, though. It made me suspect things weren't okay in twin-land.

The reason this is a problem is the reader doesn't feel the same thing the main character feels. He doesn't trust the twins and he thinks they're lying to him. Cognatively, so did I after he explained a few things. Emotionally, I missed why it was such a big deal. I didn't feel the trickery.

That leads to a breakdown in plot development itself. I had some trouble with the plot. Mainly because I went through the story wondering what the real problem was. Plot = conflict. The conflict in this story is what, exactly? Is it the conflict in the man himself? Is it the conflict between the man and the lie the twins are perpetrating? Is the conflict between the twins trying to keep it a secret? You have a few conflicts going on, but there isn't a primary conflict to be resolved. There was resolution in the end, I felt the story was finished, but I didn't have any idea what had been resolved, exactly.

Plot and character development can be terribly interlinked, and when one breaks down, so does the other. I have the feeling that you gave a great deal of thought to your characters and how you wanted them to behave to create the effect that you wanted. I also have the feeling that when you gave thought to the plot that it was only developed as a series of activities that the characters went through to highlight things like the "I's" discomfort and the twins' duplicity. There wasn't much thought put into conflict and resolution, the id of most storytelling.

Of course, I've been wrong before.
 
The Scribe...?

Okay, I got your email and was going to respond to it, but I read your request here first. I'm a bit lazy with the whole email thing. Anyway, you've got a novel there and I tried to come up with some sort of feedback on the few chapters, but since I didn't understand it as is, I started reading the whole thing. It's going to take me some time, but I promise I won't forget you. I've got your url in the faves and a sticky hanging off the monitor. I'm halfway through it, so I've got a few reads to go. I think I'll probably C'nP it into a word processor so I can read the whole thing in one easy sitting rather than mucking around with link clicking. :) I'll email ya and let ya know when I'm finished.
 
Muffin,

You are a sweetheart; sorry you find the going difficult, but perhaps things will clear as you progress. My editor, bless her heart, says they do, so hope still may spring.

Really, it's a chore; plenty of pages and more in the pipe line. I appreciate your time and talent.

Have a happy Valentine's Day,

thescribe:rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:
 
RumpleForeskin

The links were dead, but I found it on my own. :)

You've got a very good example of the right way to have narrative distance from your characters. Most people fail miserably at telling, as opposed to showing, because they editorialize about the characters or what they're feeling or doing. Most readers don't care what the author thinks about what the characters are feeling, they want to know what the characters think about what the characters are feeling. For the most part you managed to keep a good, comfortable distance.

As a side note, most stories written from a character distance viewpoint have morals. The author is telling a story so that the reader will learn something. The purpose of a story is to get one or more characters to effect a cognitive change in some way. In character distant stories the only person who is doing the cognitive change is the reader.

There is a point to that and it revolves around plot. When your story's plot is analyzed you'll notice that it's missing that element that critics agree is required for a good story, character change. The missing element fits in perfectly with the story. You have a complete story rather than an anecdote about what the characters did. So your plot is sound, your characterizations are mostly sound, and your narrative distance is consistently sound.

There are a few problems though. The last bit from what you would call Ray's point of view wasn't consistent with the rest of the story. This bit wasn't in Ray's POV, it was in RumpleForeskin's POV. There was a lengthy speech in there, it took about half of Ray's bit, describing what Ray couldn't have known. The only person present that could have known was the author. The recap of what Cindy had been doing so close on the heels of what Cindy had been doing was unnecessary. It made my eyes glaze over and I skipped to the last the paragraph, which was even worse.

For both Cindy and Ray, it would be a memorable Saturday filled with great sex, but one that would soon lead to a sever test of their relationship. I do not like this sentence at all. I don't believe it has a place in a story unless you're a narrator at the end of a soap opera. Why? It once again recaps what they'd done when the reader already knows what had happened. Then it goes ahead and tells the reader what's coming up in 15 words or less. This isn't foreshadowing, it's forecasting. You're giving the reader too much information in too short of a time and when you do that, you remove the mystery and remove the reader's involvement in the story. There's nothing to figure out.

You want to tease your reader with glimpses of the character's future so s/he'll want to read more. They way to get the reader wanting more is to draw him or her into the story so that s/he's involved in it mentally. You want to make them think about what's happening. You talk with the reader, giving just enough information, you don't talk at the reader, overloading them with information.

Perhaps you were looking for something to close this chapter with so that it had a definite feel of closure. I'm good at throwing something at the last just to stop the story so I don't have to look at it anymore, and it's usually bad when I do that. There's no closure here, but the penultimate paragraph had the feel of a good ending to a middle chapter. You could have stuck with that so you could on with Ray's side of the story. If you had no intention of giving Ray a side of the story, then you should have left out his POV, that way we wouldn't expect the rest of a story.

Another problem that we run into is the tag words. "Said" and his buddies. You shouldn't need to use these words very often. They have no part in furthering a plot, their only purpose is to clarify who is speaking. If that's already clear, then you don't need to use one. Now, there are times when you want to convey tone with the speaker. You can do it one of two ways. You can turn said into an adverb or you can write a sentence.

"I quit," he said quietly. Or: He sighed in resignation. "I quit."

If the reader has to figure out that he's talking quietly, you'll keep the attention more firmly entrenched in the story than if you just tell them he's talking quietly.

Most of your exchanges are two people speaking to each other. You have very little dialogue and it's all interspersed with action from the characters. I looked pretty carefully and I didn't see a single spot that warranted the use of "said" or any other tag word. Here's an example:

Giving him a wink which belied her uneasiness, she said, "Okay, but keep an eye out in case someone comes."

"Don't worry, Lady, I'm the only one who's gonna be coming around here," he said, with a big, pleased grin.

She gave him a wink that belied her uneasiness. "Okay, but keep an eye out in case someone comes."

"Don't worry, Lady, I'm the only one who's gonna be coming around here." He tossed her a big, pleased grin.

See it? Same thing, but much smoother. Will Strunk always said to cut out all unnecessary words. That's very good advice.
 
Many thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback. I've alread saved your comments along with two very good ones on the Story Discussion Circle. They suggested I heed your words of wisdom. You might enjoy reading them.

"When your story's plot is analyzed you'll notice that it's missing that element that critics agree is required for a good story, character change."
-Here, I've got a question. Doesn't the once fatitful new wife's decision to commit adultry, along with her realizing afterward that she wants more than just a one time fling, constitute a "character chage?"

Also, I wasn't certain which tense you intended in the rest of that paragraph. "The missing element fits in perfectly with the story. You have a complete story rather than an anecdote about what the characters did. So your plot is sound, your characterizations are mostly sound, and your narrative distance is consistently sound."

Your advice on limiting the number of dialogue tags is appreciated w/o question.

By the way, you nailed me on the ending. This is a chapter from an ongoing practice novel. The ending was my futile attempt to turn it into a readable short story.

Again, many thanks for your time and input. RF
 
HI KM,

You think you have time to review my other three stories: Bloodstone Chapters 1-3. take your time and lemme know! Sorry but no tight jeans in this one! hehehehe
:kiss:
 
The purpose of a story is for a character to gain some inner knowledge by overcoming obstacles. The character has some emotional or cognitive change inside that's permanent. A decision to commit adultery is only a change if it comes after a series of events. The decision was the catalyst for the story, not the overall change. None of the characters had any great obstacles to overcome or any changes. On the surface it looks like breaking the taboos of adultery and incest would accomplish that, but the fact is that they were already inclined that way or it wouldn't have happened.

It's called plot development and it can be fun.

It's a little lengthy, but read Dixon Careter Lee's Teaching Patti and you'll see a prime example of a character changing. Well, except the last chapter, which well and truly sucked plot-wise.
 
Hardcore Feedback

KillerMuffin,

I only have one story on the board, but I am working on submitting more. My theme is Fantasy and all my stories will belong to that genre'

So far all of the feedback I have recieved has been singularly positive but without any real substance as far as helping me to improve my writing.

I have read your stories, and your how-to's and it is very obvious that you are someone who knows of which you speak. Please, if you have time, read my story and give me some hardcore feedback. I would very very much like it and be ever so very thankful.

Thanks
LU

BTW here is the link to my story, if I have done it correctly

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=37658
 
quinn hemingway, hope I didn't make you wait too long

I chose Jade McQueen out of the lot by random pointing at the monitor.

I found this entire story to be an incredibly frustrating read. Essentially, there are too many points of view. We have Jades, Caspar's, Quinn's, and the narrator's all lumped into a few thousand words. Another difficulty was with the way it jumped all over the place. The tactic of "chapter headings" effectively indicates a change in the text, but that's where the effectiveness ends. The transitions are non-existent and rely entirely on a chapter title. You simply don't have enough room in this story to do that without losing your reader's interest entirely. I noticed in a few of your other stories that you have a lot of difficulty with transition.

Transition is the weak point in any narrative when one goes from one subject to another. There is no easy way to learn how to do it. Most term paper writers and journalists handle this sort of business through headings. Whenever the subject shifts, rather than lead a reader gently through it they put in a heading and move onward. This works in journalism where an economy of words is vital, stories are built with a clearly defined delineation, and there is only one point of view, the impartial observer. Fiction is different. Abrupt shifts feel like car wrecks because impartiality makes for bad writing. Most writing is from a character's POV. The reader is in the character's head and party to thoughts and feelings. When this abruptly shifts, it's confusing and discomforting. The trick is to lead the reader from one POV to another POV without jarring them and without pulling back into the voice of the narrator.

One big problem was that the narrator was a character. The first paragraph is a prime example of this. Supposedly it's from Jade's POV, but it's not. Why? Simple. Jade's name appears four more times than necessary. We have a list of things that Jade did, but no reaction from Jade regarding these things. Take this tidbit: "Apparently, Jade was being unfaithful on the road." No reaction from Jade regarding this. This is a highly volatile accusation and the only thing we get is more discussion regarding why Jade is purchasing a peace offering. See, the subject of this paragraph is the teddy, not Jade. All this leads to the phrase "Show, don't tell." The narrator is telling us what Jade is doing and why she's doing it. Jade herself isn't showing us what she's doing or, more importantly, why she's doing it.

Telling rather than showing adds a burden to character development. Since most of the narrative was from the narrator, the majority of character development came from activities that characters did and dialogue. Important elements are left out that way and make the task of developing a character more difficult. Particularly when you've only got a few thousand words to work with. Bring the characters into it, when you do there is personality and emotion that the reader will identify with and either like or dislike. When this is missing-- unless you're particularly gifted and few are-- a reader will feel apathetic toward characters. This leaves a less than memorable read.

Description, while vivid, was also lacking the human element. Narrators aren't human in stories. We have a good, solid level of description of surroundings and people, though there are no reactions to them. For instance, "The movie marquees glittered and they were colored like popcorn. A red suited soldier with a butterfly vest was handing out Wonka bars to a bunch of bland speaking kids." This is an extremely good bit of description. The problem is that there's no character context. Nothing about Jade in this paragraph at all, nor her reaction to any of it or how she'd feel. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does come back to the principle of reporting it, not showing it.

Mechanically, the most difficult things to get past were the choppy sentences and bits of bad grammar.

Combine short sentences when you can. You should have a few short ones peppered through the story because variety is the spice of life. A short sentence also has a great deal of impact to a reader. Important facts or heavy issues should be dealt with in short sentences because it causes a reader to linger over that and keep it in mind. Things that aren't important, in contrast, should flow in with longer sentences because it gives the reader a bigger picture. For instance, "Jade clicked off. The phone dropped from her hand and she closed her eyes. Jade leaned her head against the window. She traced the glass with her index finger. Jade reached into her pocket. Jade removed a piece of yellow paper from her pocket."

Read it out loud with all the required pauses in it. Painful, isn't it? It's also juvenile in feel, rather like See Dick Run. I'm sure you can see how things might be combined. An extremely good word choice to keep in mind is the gerund. It's good for extending sentences with the word "and." "Jade leaned her head against the window, tracing the glass with her index finger." as opposed to "Jade leaned her head against the window and traced the glass with her index finger."

I didn't see any run-ons in your work, so I don't think you have to watch out for them overly much. However, when you go about the business of combining simple sentences, there is a danger of run-on.

Hope this helps. :)
 
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