On identity politics or why can't we just agree to being weirdos

[subbie_333]

I don't see the 'weirdos' outgunning the normal in our society. Who's to say what's weird anyway? Or normal? The haves decide what is normal, the have nots obey that 'normal', or they are shunned, cast out.

I simply 'hide in the shadows' to protect myself (my future), my girlfriend, and her kids. Those kids don't need to grow up with the stigma of their mother dating some 'freak, probably couldn't take care of a family one day if he had one'.

That's not right. I won't let them go through that. I've seen it, and people will talk, especially in small towns. I've personally been stereotyped and treated far worse.


Ah, I don't know.

i was responding to the OP as to why some weirdos try to explain to normal people why they are more normal than what the normal people think (huh, OK, so i am weird). Basically, some of us weirdos feel we have good enough reasons to not be outted or IDed as weird. For example, i personally have lost a job because of the type of leather items i make. At a Tandy Leather store, no less. So, i do know.

 

[TerragonSix]

i was responding to the OP as to why some weirdos try to explain to normal people why they are more normal than what the normal people think (huh, OK, so i am weird). Basically, some of us weirdos feel we have good enough reasons to not be outted or IDed as weird. For example, i personally have lost a job because of the type of leather items i make. At a Tandy Leather store, no less. So, i do know.

Yeah, but you were probably single at the time, with no attachments?

It's a lot harder to do something like that if you have people you love, and can possibly be affected by your actions.

 

[subbie_333]

Yeah, but you were probably single at the time, with no attachments?

It's a lot harder to do something like that if you have people you love, and can possibly be affected by your actions.

LOL i think we are agreeing with each other. Sometimes you married folks forget that if a single person loses their job, there is nobody else in the household to put food on the table. Basically, us weirdos all individually have to figure out how much to expose our weirdness to the nillas, how much we are willing to risk. For some folks it is a job, for some a marriage and/or access to their children, for other it is literally their life. So, i think we agree that we each have to assess the risks, which makes it wrong to judge others on what they do to protect themselves. Like, don't call me a wimp if i say that i don't walk into a bar in the Deep South and yell "Lynyrd Skynyrd sucks". Of course, i like Lynyrd Skynyrd, but, i prefer my beatings to be in a different scenario.

 

[TerragonSix]

LOL i think we are agreeing with each other. Sometimes you married folks forget that if a single person loses their job, there is nobody else in the household to put food on the table. Basically, us weirdos all individually have to figure out how much to expose our weirdness to the nillas, how much we are willing to risk. For some folks it is a job, for some a marriage and/or access to their children, for other it is literally their life. So, i think we agree that we each have to assess the risks, which makes it wrong to judge others on what they do to protect themselves. Like, don't call me a wimp if i say that i don't walk into a bar in the Deep South and yell "Lynyrd Skynyrd sucks". Of course, i like Lynyrd Skynyrd, but, i prefer my beatings to be in a different scenario.

LOL, wait, wait, I'm not married! Just very attached to a special someone and her kids.

Different scenario huh? You have a fem-domme that takes care of that?

I think we agree to agree guy.

 

[TerragonSix]

--double Post, Sorry

 

[subbie_333]

Different scenario huh? You have a fem-domme that takes care of that?

um, not at the moment. Think i should run into a room (*only*) full of dominant heterosexual (or bisexual) women and yell "every single one of You bitches swing a flogger like a girl!!!!"?

 

[TerragonSix]

um, not at the moment. Think i should run into a room (*only*) full of dominant heterosexual (or bisexual) women and yell "every single one of You bitches swing a flogger like a girl!!!!"?

Try the national organization for women headquarters.

Be warned... You might get killed though.

 

[graceanne]

I don't care, either, if people think I'm weird. I'd rather be weird than 'normal'. Normal people freak. me. out.

 

[TerragonSix]

I don't care, either, if people think I'm weird. I'd rather be weird than 'normal'. Normal people freak. me. out.

Those freaky-deeky normal people!

 

[Homburg]

Why do so many people in the BDSM community (online and in flesh) react so strongly about being called or assumed to be weirdos? Or put another way, why do I so often encounter fellow BDSMers who swear to be 'just like anyone else' but with a twisted sexuality?

I'm fucked-up, my sexuality is fucked-up, and I'm not about to pretend otherwise. I also happen to find weirdos and fucked up people much more interesting and fun than 'well adjusted' people.
.

I post her eunder a nom de plume. Why? Because some of the shit I admit to doing could get me arrested. I do some fucked up, evil things to women I love. Oh yeah, I have two of them. I call them slave, they call me Master. I've whipped them both with a very un-people friendly bullwhip. I've cut them, burned them, poked them with needles. Done all sorts of outre nasty things, and took pictures that would certainly get me arrested (no, I won't share).

What we do is not normal. I'm fine with that.

If it were normal, we'd be more willing to use our real names. We would not have to jump through hoops to attend play parties. We would not have to be careful about taking our toys on trips with us because our luggage might get searched. More people might be willing to post their faces.

It ain't normal, and those of us that take part in it ain't normal either. I like it that way.

 

[Netzach]

Oh I agree. A persons private life is a persons private life. I do reject labeling, stereotyping. I don't think it's right, but it happens, doesn't it?

Well, that may be true about doing a disservice to myself. But that's a part that is completely cut off from the rest of the world, except for maybe my girlfriend. Vanilla wise, in vague details (because a gentleman never tells), I might discuss the topic of sex in a close friend conversation.

But I don't discuss the BDSM side of myself, except to my girlfriend... and you guys, LOL

I'm not in the 'lifestyle'. Never have been, never will be. I have a lot more to care about in this world, such as my career, my family, my GF (in non-BDSM capacity), and her kids.

Personally, that's enough for me. I just prefer to avoid being stereotyped by people who don't know who I am, or if they did, choose to believe vague and unfair stereotypes. I am in a profession that would blacklist me the moment they found out I had that kind of 'darkside'. So in that regard, I guess I am a closet BDSM'er.

My point is do you stand up when fine upstanding normal citizens do and say things that fuck the rest of us over, or do we deserve it for choosing a more overt path?

I don't really care about who chooses to be closeted or not. I don't go out of my way to make myself known either, and I have just about nothing to do with the local community at this point in my life. It's just not an extremely "communal" thing. This is just something I had so much exposure to when active as a pro - people who act, do and vote one thing and then enjoy everything they're happy to publicly attack in private, hoping and praying not to be Spitzered.

Or like Troy King, even better.

Bunny, I hope you've been following this one, would make being in AL some fun.

 

[desertslave]

I embrace my weirdness, when I bother to think about it at all.

I know that I complain far less about my Master/husband than a lot of my vanilla friends do. We have significantly few conflicts and they're usually resolved quickly. They think I'm weird because I report in when I'm out with them. If questioned, I simply tell them we think it's a matter of courtesy, letting the other know where we are (he calls me, too). I think, at least among my friends, there's a lot less courtesy and thoughtfulness in their relationships. I like the way mine works, much less stress. If that's weird, so be it.

I don't discuss our 'kinks' with most others, except places like here on Lit. I figure it's nobody else's business but ours.

 

[midwestyankee]

<snip>This is just something I had so much exposure to when active as a pro - people who act, do and vote one thing and then enjoy everything they're happy to publicly attack in private, hoping and praying not to be Spitzered.

<snip>

Spitzered! I love it.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I post her eunder a nom de plume. Why? Because some of the shit I admit to doing could get me arrested. I do some fucked up, evil things to women I love. Oh yeah, I have two of them. I call them slave, they call me Master. I've whipped them both with a very un-people friendly bullwhip. I've cut them, burned them, poked them with needles. Done all sorts of outre nasty things, and took pictures that would certainly get me arrested (no, I won't share).

What we do is not normal. I'm fine with that.

If it were normal, we'd be more willing to use our real names. We would not have to jump through hoops to attend play parties. We would not have to be careful about taking our toys on trips with us because our luggage might get searched. More people might be willing to post their faces.

It ain't normal, and those of us that take part in it ain't normal either. I like it that way.

Netzach already said half of what I wanted to say about this, but let me clarify again.

The inspiration for this thread was not about being closeted or not. I'm not exactly closeted about my life, but I'm fully aware that I am privileged to live in a space where I can be somewhat out about it without it affecting my job or being beaten up. It's actually the very straight vanilla part of my sex life that I'm closeted about, ie, sex work. But that's beside the point.

What I was getting at is this tendency for people in this community to rationalize or justify demands for respect based on the fact that we are 'normal' people, but with a different sexuality. And of course, this often includes explanations that everything we do is very mondane really, all safe, sane, and consentual and stuff. I'm not rolling my eyes on the SSC - I do think it makes sense. But when we go this route in the mainstream, we are necessarily excluding some people from this community (those who don't play by SSC, those who have indeed low self-esteem, does who do suffer from mental illness, those who have been abused, etc.), and thus at least excusing the discrimination and abuse *they* get from society and the law. But *we* are not like *them*, *we* are not the freaks, *we* are respectable bourgeois who deserve society's respect, because *we* are normal people, who just happen to get wet/hard on some weird stuff.

In the thread I refered to in my original post, many got offended by the OP's question about domination/dominants. Of course his question was frame in a way that implied that there was something wrong with people who want to dominate others. Not a very original claim, and something most of us should be used to hear from non-kinksters by now. But what stood out for me was the refusal of many to actually consider the fact that yes, indeed, it is very much possible that someone wants/needs to dominate their partner because they feel powerless in other aspects of their life, or because they have low self-esteem, or whatever. As I've said before, my enjoyement in humiliating grown up white men certainly has something to do with my social position in the current sexist world I live in. It's not all there is, but it is there.

Going back to the political implications of this reflection, I see a parallel with the way the queer/gay community has been making political claims and demands for rights and equality. A certain segment of the community was advocating with the rational that we are just normal people with a different sexuality, but we also want a family, we are totally monogamous, we have normal job, we want kids and a house in the burbs, no we don't sleep around, etc.

What about those in the queer/gay community who actually do NOT aspire to this het monogamous family model? What about those who actually enjoy going to the bathhouses every week-end? What about those who actually engage in unsafe sex practices? What about those who have multiple partners? Are they less deserving of rights and equality? Do they deserve the abuse and discrimination?

 

[Etoile]

I'm a fuckin' freak, y'all, and I love it. Some of my friends are freaks, some are normal, it's no big deal.

Although really, come to think of it, I'm quite normal in some ways, and way fuckin' out there in others. Hahaha.

 

[caela]

My point is do you stand up when fine upstanding normal citizens do and say things that fuck the rest of us over, or do we deserve it for choosing a more overt path?

I don't really care about who chooses to be closeted or not. I don't go out of my way to make myself known either, and I have just about nothing to do with the local community at this point in my life. It's just not an extremely "communal" thing. This is just something I had so much exposure to when active as a pro - people who act, do and vote one thing and then enjoy everything they're happy to publicly attack in private, hoping and praying not to be Spitzered.

Hypocrisy like this annoys me. I'm not exactly "out" at work but if someone asked a straight question I'd answer it. Still when it comes down to voting or just plain standing up for someone that is out, I think to just stand back and hide is cowardly. If someone is being attacked for being different I think it's a matter of simple, human, decency to stand up and tell the ones doing the attacking to back the fuck off.

No one deserves to be attacked or treated poorly because of something that, at the end of the day, is no one else's damned business anyway.

What about those in the queer/gay community who actually do NOT aspire to this het monogamous family model? What about those who actually enjoy going to the bathhouses every week-end? What about those who actually engage in unsafe sex practices? What about those who have multiple partners? Are they less deserving of rights and equality? Do they deserve the abuse and discrimination?

No they don't deserve it. They deserve the same rights and respect that every other person does. Who they like to sleep with and how they like to do it is no one else's business and it isn't something they should be judge on. If I go into work every day and do my job to the best of my ability then that is all that should matter there. They shouldn't be able to say word one about my life outside of work unless I am showing up with a problem that in some way effects my job performance (coming in drunk or on drugs for example).

Just my two cents worth.

 

[intothewoods]

Netzach already said half of what I wanted to say about this, but let me clarify again.

The inspiration for this thread was not about being closeted or not. I'm not exactly closeted about my life, but I'm fully aware that I am privileged to live in a space where I can be somewhat out about it without it affecting my job or being beaten up. It's actually the very straight vanilla part of my sex life that I'm closeted about, ie, sex work. But that's beside the point.

What I was getting at is this tendency for people in this community to rationalize or justify demands for respect based on the fact that we are 'normal' people, but with a different sexuality. And of course, this often includes explanations that everything we do is very mondane really, all safe, sane, and consentual and stuff. I'm not rolling my eyes on the SSC - I do think it makes sense. But when we go this route in the mainstream, we are necessarily excluding some people from this community (those who don't play by SSC, those who have indeed low self-esteem, does who do suffer from mental illness, those who have been abused, etc.), and thus at least excusing the discrimination and abuse *they* get from society and the law. But *we* are not like *them*, *we* are not the freaks, *we* are respectable bourgeois who deserve society's respect, because *we* are normal people, who just happen to get wet/hard on some weird stuff.

In the thread I refered to in my original post, many got offended by the OP's question about domination/dominants. Of course his question was frame in a way that implied that there was something wrong with people who want to dominate others. Not a very original claim, and something most of us should be used to hear from non-kinksters by now. But what stood out for me was the refusal of many to actually consider the fact that yes, indeed, it is very much possible that someone wants/needs to dominate their partner because they feel powerless in other aspects of their life, or because they have low self-esteem, or whatever. As I've said before, my enjoyement in humiliating grown up white men certainly has something to do with my social position in the current sexist world I live in. It's not all there is, but it is there.

Going back to the political implications of this reflection, I see a parallel with the way the queer/gay community has been making political claims and demands for rights and equality. A certain segment of the community was advocating with the rational that we are just normal people with a different sexuality, but we also want a family, we are totally monogamous, we have normal job, we want kids and a house in the burbs, no we don't sleep around, etc.

What about those in the queer/gay community who actually do NOT aspire to this het monogamous family model? What about those who actually enjoy going to the bathhouses every week-end? What about those who actually engage in unsafe sex practices? What about those who have multiple partners? Are they less deserving of rights and equality? Do they deserve the abuse and discrimination?

I don't think everyone should aspire to the heterosexual monogamous family model. I also don't think one family model makes sense. I'm also a huge proponent of sexual freedom - do whatever you want, as long as you're not hurting anyone (having unsafe sex, especially without telling your partners, doesn't qualify as not hurting anyone, however).

A lot of people in the scene are fucked up and had fucked up childhoods. And I can't really relate to them.

There's definitely a tension in the scene between those who want to maintain their privacy and membership in bourgouis society, and those who don't give a shit. Recently in our local group, a decision was made to restrict events to those over 21. There was a lot of fuss over it. I feel for people who have to put up with it when they could care less, but I can't hang out somewhere they're serving booze with underage kids around. Sorry. I don't do shit that will get me arrested.

It all becomes kind of complicated when you have kids. I don't think you need to give up who you are, nor do I think kids suffer from growing up differently in some way, but they need to have the opportunity to be themselves, whatever that may mean, including a straight, monogamous "normal" person.

 

[Netzach]

Netzach already said half of what I wanted to say about this, but let me clarify again.

The inspiration for this thread was not about being closeted or not. I'm not exactly closeted about my life, but I'm fully aware that I am privileged to live in a space where I can be somewhat out about it without it affecting my job or being beaten up. It's actually the very straight vanilla part of my sex life that I'm closeted about, ie, sex work. But that's beside the point.

What I was getting at is this tendency for people in this community to rationalize or justify demands for respect based on the fact that we are 'normal' people, but with a different sexuality. And of course, this often includes explanations that everything we do is very mondane really, all safe, sane, and consentual and stuff. I'm not rolling my eyes on the SSC - I do think it makes sense. But when we go this route in the mainstream, we are necessarily excluding some people from this community (those who don't play by SSC, those who have indeed low self-esteem, does who do suffer from mental illness, those who have been abused, etc.), and thus at least excusing the discrimination and abuse *they* get from society and the law. But *we* are not like *them*, *we* are not the freaks, *we* are respectable bourgeois who deserve society's respect, because *we* are normal people, who just happen to get wet/hard on some weird stuff.

In the thread I refered to in my original post, many got offended by the OP's question about domination/dominants. Of course his question was frame in a way that implied that there was something wrong with people who want to dominate others. Not a very original claim, and something most of us should be used to hear from non-kinksters by now. But what stood out for me was the refusal of many to actually consider the fact that yes, indeed, it is very much possible that someone wants/needs to dominate their partner because they feel powerless in other aspects of their life, or because they have low self-esteem, or whatever. As I've said before, my enjoyement in humiliating grown up white men certainly has something to do with my social position in the current sexist world I live in. It's not all there is, but it is there.

Going back to the political implications of this reflection, I see a parallel with the way the queer/gay community has been making political claims and demands for rights and equality. A certain segment of the community was advocating with the rational that we are just normal people with a different sexuality, but we also want a family, we are totally monogamous, we have normal job, we want kids and a house in the burbs, no we don't sleep around, etc.

What about those in the queer/gay community who actually do NOT aspire to this het monogamous family model? What about those who actually enjoy going to the bathhouses every week-end? What about those who actually engage in unsafe sex practices? What about those who have multiple partners? Are they less deserving of rights and equality? Do they deserve the abuse and discrimination?

I think an interesting manifestation of this is the "most submissives are shockingly professional, strong, independent, leaderly people in REAL life, blah blah blah"

and rather than the flipside "most Dominants are leaderly highly paid, successful blah blah etc" people.

There's no room in our self-image for marginalized, not perfectly functional people even though IME that's the vast majority of us as a subculture.

Which I think pretty much sucks, but there's no reason we shouldn't be classist, neurotic or want the privilege that "normal" bestows - not less than any other subculture or marginalized group.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think everyone should aspire to the heterosexual monogamous family model. I also don't think one family model makes sense. I'm also a huge proponent of sexual freedom - do whatever you want, as long as you're not hurting anyone (having unsafe sex, especially without telling your partners, doesn't qualify as not hurting anyone, however).

A lot of people in the scene are fucked up and had fucked up childhoods. And I can't really relate to them.

There's definitely a tension in the scene between those who want to maintain their privacy and membership in bourgouis society, and those who don't give a shit. Recently in our local group, a decision was made to restrict events to those over 21. There was a lot of fuss over it. I feel for people who have to put up with it when they could care less, but I can't hang out somewhere they're serving booze with underage kids around. Sorry. I don't do shit that will get me arrested.

It all becomes kind of complicated when you have kids. I don't think you need to give up who you are, nor do I think kids suffer from growing up differently in some way, but they need to have the opportunity to be themselves, whatever that may mean, including a straight, monogamous "normal" person.

Well, it's kind of hard to model that if you're two moms or two dads or all your friends are two mom two dad households or you're in a stable triad and someone has a kid. Most kids I know in non-traditional families don't go the serious backlash route of "must be mainstream" though, if the job's done right they're happy they didn't grow up like that. What you're saying is nice, but it's kind of the "I'll let my young children choose their religion" line - you kind of have to pick by not picking.

 

[BiBunny]

Or like Troy King, even better.

Bunny, I hope you've been following this one, would make being in AL some fun.

Nope, I haven't. I tried to Google, but my ADD keeps kicking in. Got a link or a SparkNotes version?

 

[Netzach]

Nope, I haven't. I tried to Google, but my ADD keeps kicking in. Got a link or a SparkNotes version?

Oh, he's your Atty General. The guy who is as freaked out about sex toys as he is about teh buttsecks among men. One of the most virulently phobic RW stars on the rise. Right?

Caught in bed. By wife. With male aide.

Wife apparently is the one who leaked it to the blogs and won't let him in the house. She's not going to be standing there grimly by her man, I don't think, unless they payoff for her is going to be huge huge huge.

 

[BiBunny]

Oh, he's your Atty General. The guy who is as freaked out about sex toys as he is about teh buttsecks among men. One of the most virulently phobic RW stars on the rise. Right?

Caught in bed. By wife. With male aide.

Wife apparently is the one who leaked it to the blogs and won't let him in the house. She's not going to be standing there grimly by her man, I don't think, unless they payoff for her is going to be huge huge huge.

Thank you. I knew the stuff I was finding couldn't be what you were talking about. I knew who he was, but, apparently, the AL media is keeping it pretty quiet. Or else I'm just clueless.

It's also fucking hilarious. I hate hypocrites.

 

[nh23]

Here's my take on it. I'm weird, No where near normal. I know that. I have fantasies and have done things that make my kinky side look vanilla. Things that aside from Master, Bunny, and Homburg I've never talked to anyone else about. I won't ever argue that I'm normal. I was also sexually and physically abused as a child.

What pisses me off though is when people assume that the reason I'm kinky, a maso, etc..is because of that abuse. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But at this point in my life I'm that way because it's my choice to be that way. I'm not going to let someone who hurt me as a child take credit for me being something that I truly enjoy being. He doesn't deserve to get credit for that.

I won't argue that I'm normal with a different sexuality either. *shrugs* I have maso tendencies that are very unhealthy right along with the ones I consider to be ok..or normal for me. I have fantasies, that make me wonder about my own sanity at times..lol. I know though where to draw the line, so I suppose that makes me half way sane.

 

[graceanne]

Those freaky-deeky normal people!

Seriously. It should be outlawed.

I'm a fuckin' freak, y'all, and I love it. Some of my friends are freaks, some are normal, it's no big deal.

Although really, come to think of it, I'm quite normal in some ways, and way fuckin' out there in others. Hahaha.

That's probably true of everyone. If you look hard enough they have some normal and some weird.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I think an interesting manifestation of this is the "most submissives are shockingly professional, strong, independent, leaderly people in REAL life, blah blah blah"

and rather than the flipside "most Dominants are leaderly highly paid, successful blah blah etc" people.

There's no room in our self-image for marginalized, not perfectly functional people even though IME that's the vast majority of us as a subculture.

Which I think pretty much sucks, but there's no reason we shouldn't be classist, neurotic or want the privilege that "normal" bestows - not less than any other subculture or marginalized group.

Yes, that. That's exactly what I was getting at.

Like we feel the need to excuse ourselves for who we are: I'm submissive but... I'm dominant but... I like to have my ass spanked but... I get wet putting needle through someone's crotch but... Fill in the blank.

But you're right. There's no reason why this subculture wouldn't be any more or less interested in the privileges of 'normal' -- I just think we suck at doing what it takes to get them.