On identity politics or why can't we just agree to being weirdos

[Etoile]

I actually find more meaning in Jewish holidays than I do in American ones. I don't know why.

 

[Homburg]

I actually find more meaning in Jewish holidays than I do in American ones. I don't know why.

Meaning, ritual, sense of belonging to something greater than onesself.


4th of July - drink beer with your friends and watch fireworks
Christmas - Loot!
Halloween - Candy! Costumes!
Easter - Bunnies! Eggs! (WTF?)
Memorial Day - day off from work, fire up the grill
Veteran's Day - see Memorial Day
New Years Day - *hic* Um, what did I do last night?

Thanksgiving is about the only major holiday that seems to have much meaning. And, sure, there are individuals, families, pockets of folks for whom the holidays above mean something. I'm not saying they're utterly meaningless, just that they lack the specific culture-reinforcing meanings of similar events in other cultures and subcultures.

 

[intothewoods]

I actually find more meaning in Jewish holidays than I do in American ones. I don't know why.

I like Thanksgiving. And July 4th. I do the same things I did as a kid, that my mom started. I wouldn't say they mean more than Jewish holidays, but they are important to me.

Meaning, ritual, sense of belonging to something greater than onesself.


4th of July - drink beer with your friends and watch fireworks
Christmas - Loot!
Halloween - Candy! Costumes!
Easter - Bunnies! Eggs! (WTF?)
Memorial Day - day off from work, fire up the grill
Veteran's Day - see Memorial Day
New Years Day - *hic* Um, what did I do last night?

Thanksgiving is about the only major holiday that seems to have much meaning. And, sure, there are individuals, families, pockets of folks for whom the holidays above mean something. I'm not saying they're utterly meaningless, just that they lack the specific culture-reinforcing meanings of similar events in other cultures and subcultures.

Many of my most favorite traditions were started and handed down by my mom., and as I said to Etoiel, some of those were just for Thanksgiving, not for any jewish holidays. Your kids will really appreciate it someday, I bet.

Is it just a coincidence that you're involved with two ethnically Jewish women? I wonder, seriously. I'm really into figuring out relationship patterns. Don't mind me.

 

[intothewoods]

*snort*




We, as Americans, DO have a culture. It just doesn't feel like we do, because it's ordinary and every day. But if you were to go into another country, like Thailand for example, you'd realize that American's have their own culture. Sure it's a mish-mash of several different cultures, but who cares? It's our culture, and it's just fine.

And, we're not the first to mash together several cultures and make our own. The English, for example. The island, if I remember my history right, was originally habited by the Angle's. Then the Saxons took over, and we got the Angle-Saxon's (or Anglo Saxon). Then the Normans took over. Then their's the combination of genes from Scotland and Ireland and wales. so the English culture is a mishmash of Angle, Saxon, Norman, Welsh and Celtic. And don't forget all those raping/pillaging Vikings adding their genes into the mix. We just don't think of it, cause it was a long time ago. Give us a few thousand years and no one will care that we're a mish-mash of cultures, either.

I've been to Thailand! Yes, I probably have more in common with a non-Jewish American than a Thai. I think. For some people, American culture is a mishmash of cultures, and they embrace it. For others, like me, and other hyphenated Americans, a modified version of that Americana is part of who we are, and a whole other culture makes up the other part. Really, what makes America unique is that there is room for me to maintain my culture and be an American.

 

[graceanne]

As Americans, by and large we are identified by our foibles.

I don't particularly care how other countries see Americans. Heck, Lady Agie (m wisdom's sub) just moved to sweden and most the people there think that we all live in hollywood-esque areas and know movie stars. *shrugs* Stereotypes don't interest me. I sincerely doubt that all French people are snobs and all scots play the bag pipes.

----

Do what? I've lived abroad. Seven years total. Visiting other countries may make you think that we have a culture, but living in other countries makes it plain that we don't, at least for me.

You are confusing consumerism with culture. As a nation, we have virtually no culture. The closest thing would be national holidays, and even those are debatable. There is regional character, and some pockets of culture, by we are largely devoid of national culture.

Yes, I am cynical about this. I'm not pickin gon you, per se, graceanne.

*sob*



Here's another thing. You say that you, personally, don't have culture. That your grandma wouldn't allow that culture. Is their some reason you can't learn it elsewhere? If it bothers you to be culture-less, then why not do something about it?

I've been to Thailand! Yes, I probably have more in common with a non-Jewish American than a Thai. I think. For some people, American culture is a mishmash of cultures, and they embrace it. For others, like me, and other hyphenated Americans, a modified version of that Americana is part of who we are, and a whole other culture makes up the other part. Really, what makes America unique is that there is room for me to maintain my culture and be an American.

I don't consider myself culture-less, but to tell the truth a lot of my culture comes from my religion. Homburgs discussion about the holidays:

4th of July - drink beer with your friends and watch fireworks
Christmas - Loot!
Halloween - Candy! Costumes!
Easter - Bunnies! Eggs! (WTF?)
Memorial Day - day off from work, fire up the grill
Veteran's Day - see Memorial Day
New Years Day - *hic* Um, what did I do last night?

I don't see my holidays that way. The fourth of july is our INDEPENDENCE DAY. I don't drink beer, and to tell the truth I rarely watch the big fireworks. We go to the river and barbeque - it's a big family day for us. And then me and the kids discuss the reason why we do fireworks and all the noise. Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth (cause he was actually born in the spring). yeah, we do presents. We also read the story from the bible. We pray, and thank God for his gift, and the kids sing 'happy birthday' off and on for two days. (Not a highlight of my holiday, but whatever.) I dont' celebrate Halloween - it's satanic. We do celebrate All Saints Eve. The kids dress up and we go to church. Easter is the day that Jesus was killed for our sins. We go to church that day, and read the story in the bible with the kids. Memorial Day me and the kids go to the cemetery and put flowers on my grandpa's grave and their cousin's grave. Veterens Day - well we don't do anything. New Years Eve the kids have two guests each. We have a treasure hunt, and toast the new year with sparkling cider.

 

[Homburg]

Many of my most favorite traditions were started and handed down by my mom., and as I said to Etoiel, some of those were just for Thanksgiving, not for any jewish holidays. Your kids will really appreciate it someday, I bet.

Eh, maybe. We had a tradition or two, but the really cool one got kicked out from underneath us.

Is it just a coincidence that you're involved with two ethnically Jewish women? I wonder, seriously. I'm really into figuring out relationship patterns. Don't mind me.

Coincidence. viv is barely ethnically Jewish and has none of the culture in her upbringing. She was raised Catholic. MIS being Jewish was essentially a non-issue. It is a consideration, as she is practicing, and active, but not something that weirds me out or that makes me hot.

That said, heck, maybe I do have a thing for Jewish girls *shrug*

 

[Etoile]

I don't see my holidays that way. The fourth of july is our INDEPENDENCE DAY. I don't drink beer, and to tell the truth I rarely watch the big fireworks. We go to the river and barbeque - it's a big family day for us. And then me and the kids discuss the reason why we do fireworks and all the noise. Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth (cause he was actually born in the spring). yeah, we do presents. We also read the story from the bible. We pray, and thank God for his gift, and the kids sing 'happy birthday' off and on for two days. (Not a highlight of my holiday, but whatever.) I dont' celebrate Halloween - it's satanic. We do celebrate All Saints Eve. The kids dress up and we go to church. Easter is the day that Jesus was killed for our sins. We go to church that day, and read the story in the bible with the kids. Memorial Day me and the kids go to the cemetery and put flowers on my grandpa's grave and their cousin's grave. Veterens Day - well we don't do anything. New Years Eve the kids have two guests each. We have a treasure hunt, and toast the new year with sparkling cider.

You know gracie, I think you are the only person I call "friend" who is religious. Most of my friends are not religious at all. (And my hyperCatholic uncle is not my friend.) You are my friend, and you are religious. You are gracie, and you are you. {hugs}

 

[YourCaptor]

What about someone who can and does live functionally in this society, but whose political, moral, and ethical beliefs and goals is to actually destroy it? *waves*

Maintaining society (ie, the status quo) is actually the opposite of what I believe in and work for. I'd rather work for something different, where a tiny minority doesn't strive on the back and blood of most everybody else. So I guess I'm really weird then. Yea!

You still work for it though, thats accepted in this society.

"strive on the back and blood of most everybody else"

What does that mean? Working class slaving for the rich?

Ironically, isn't that what you are doing here. By labeling yourself as weird you are creating another class, more boarders, more nonsense for people to get upset about.

What those saying they are normal are trying to do, this is at least my impression, is to erase those cracks between people, create some solidarity.

 

[Homburg]

Here's another thing. You say that you, personally, don't have culture. That your grandma wouldn't allow that culture. Is their some reason you can't learn it elsewhere? If it bothers you to be culture-less, then why not do something about it?

Because inventing neoculture is not something that rings my bell. And inventing culture obviates the point to culture, as it does not foster a sense of belonging to said culture. It establishes "Us" as different from "Them", and "Them" becomes everyone not directly involved.

As to my grandma's culture, there are few cultures more xenophobic in the world than the one she left behind. You are the eternal outsider there. I would be the eternal outsider were I to adopt the cultural ways of my Japanese ancestors, and, as I did not inherit it through family, just through genetics, I feel like it would lack the authenticity of family practice.

I don't consider myself culture-less, but to tell the truth a lot of my culture comes from my religion. Homburgs discussion about the holidays:

I don't see my holidays that way. The fourth of july is our INDEPENDENCE DAY. I don't drink beer, and to tell the truth I rarely watch the big fireworks. We go to the river and barbeque - it's a big family day for us. And then me and the kids discuss the reason why we do fireworks and all the noise. Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth (cause he was actually born in the spring). yeah, we do presents. We also read the story from the bible. We pray, and thank God for his gift, and the kids sing 'happy birthday' off and on for two days. (Not a highlight of my holiday, but whatever.) I dont' celebrate Halloween - it's satanic. We do celebrate All Saints Eve. The kids dress up and we go to church. Easter is the day that Jesus was killed for our sins. We go to church that day, and read the story in the bible with the kids. Memorial Day me and the kids go to the cemetery and put flowers on my grandpa's grave and their cousin's grave. Veterens Day - well we don't do anything. New Years Eve the kids have two guests each. We have a treasure hunt, and toast the new year with sparkling cider.

This is why I put in an exception for religion earlier. Those who are seriously religious have their culture of faith to fall back on. Consumerism is not the altar at which they worship.

You are not culture-less. You are part of the Protestant/Catholic/whatever-faith-you-practice culture, as it infomrs your practices and is the lens through which you view many of these holidays.

 

[EmpressFi]

I don't see my holidays that way. The fourth of july is our INDEPENDENCE DAY. I don't drink beer, and to tell the truth I rarely watch the big fireworks. We go to the river and barbeque - it's a big family day for us. And then me and the kids discuss the reason why we do fireworks and all the noise. Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth (cause he was actually born in the spring). yeah, we do presents. We also read the story from the bible. We pray, and thank God for his gift, and the kids sing 'happy birthday' off and on for two days. (Not a highlight of my holiday, but whatever.) I dont' celebrate Halloween - it's satanic. We do celebrate All Saints Eve. The kids dress up and we go to church. Easter is the day that Jesus was killed for our sins. We go to church that day, and read the story in the bible with the kids. Memorial Day me and the kids go to the cemetery and put flowers on my grandpa's grave and their cousin's grave. Veterens Day - well we don't do anything. New Years Eve the kids have two guests each. We have a treasure hunt, and toast the new year with sparkling cider.

I'm alot like you Gracie.. I saw the list before and thought, but that's not what they are to me.. I was raised strongly religious, but havent been for years. I was sitting and thinking about how we celebrate the holidays and it's not so much "church"... but family.

New Years = Football, we sometimes have a party the night before, but usually we stay up late enough to kiss, then I call Master and wish him Happy New Year.. then we go to bed.. We have corned beef and cabbage and watch the Rose Bowl parade and then later the game.. during which I call my brothers and we tease each other about the game.

Easter was always religious for us. We're not into church now, but we still get together as a family, share the big meal.

Memorial Day. My hometown has the longest consecutive parade in the country. Granted, I cant go to it until probably next year, but my family still does.. then we go out to the lake (it's the opening day of Lake Vesuvius) and picnic. Here in Jersey, again, we're usually at Malin's parents, doing the same thing.

July 4th. This holiday is very poignant for me. I usually watch the musical 1776 and spend the day thinking of the risk my ancestor took by placing his name on that piece of paper. Sometimes, we go and see fireworks, because I'm a sucker for them.

Thanksgiving... c'mon..that just pours out the family thing..

Yeah.. Christmas can be about the presents.. but for me.. it's when I miss my folks the most, when I miss my family the most. We were poor. Presents werent a given..but my brother in law and my brother playing the guitar or hearing my mom singing carols while working in the kitchen.. they were.


Culture.. holidays..are what you make them. If you want to give in to the commercialism, give in to the cynicism that says that's all they're about.. that's your choice, that is your right. But every holiday we have throughout the year was used as a cause for my family to get together and just be together. And that's what I've taken with me and cling to when I get overwhelmed by Christmas displays that start before Halloween. If you want them to mean something more ... then make them mean something more

 

[Homburg]

Cynicism has become my culture apparently

ETA: Really, it does come down to me being overwhelmed by the holiday displays, and how stores start pimping holiday merchandise so damned early every year. And how many peopl eI know for whom my list is the only truth they know. Yeah, we've got people here that are posting about how much the holidays mean, but there are loads and loads of folks on this board for whom those holidays mean exactly what I posted and thus they have no reason to post.

And, as an aside, if I were to write that list for myself, Veteran's Day and Memorial Day are both quietly sad days of contemplation of the veterans in my family and the folks that came before me that died in service to this country and those that carried old wounds to their grave. And for the past coupla years there has been bitter anger there too at the men and women dying in a foreing land that I can't give enough of a shit about to kill people over. Christmas and Halloween are days for my kids. Other holidays are excuses for the family to get together.

 

[graceanne]

You know gracie, I think you are the only person I call "friend" who is religious. Most of my friends are not religious at all. (And my hyperCatholic uncle is not my friend.) You are my friend, and you are religious. You are gracie, and you are you. {hugs}

Thank you. *hugs*

You aren't the only person who calls me 'friend', where I am the only religious person they call 'friend'. I don't know why, but I'm comfortable for un-religious people. Maybe because I feel no overwhelming urge to convert everyone I see.

Yeah.. Christmas can be about the presents.. but for me.. it's when I miss my folks the most, when I miss my family the most. We were poor. Presents werent a given..but my brother in law and my brother playing the guitar or hearing my mom singing carols while working in the kitchen.. they were.

Same here. We were reallly poor. One year Santa brought me and my sister chocolate santas. I believe they were a dollar a piece. It wasn't a big deal, Christmas isn't about the presents. And, quite frankly, my sister and I knew about Santa by then, and my mom gave us a headsup that Santa was broke that year. Either Santa paid the rent or got us presents. My sister and I chose rent.

 

[faeriefire]

Somehow every single person is unique and individual. I believe that some people thrive on the knowledge that they are different from their peers whereas others prefer finding commonalities and celebrating them.

There is no such thing as normal...except that most people seem to think normal is something they are not.

I truly believe that we all wear masks of one sort or another and there aren't many folks who will openly share every recess of their mind with just anybody. I do believe that for many the public vs private sharing of sexuality is highly dependent on how secure they feel. Most folks are not going to openly admit to anything that will get them hung, shot, ostrasized, arrested, fired, dumped, etc.

Definately fascinating ideas here, and thought-provoking. Personally I don't believe it's possible to answer the initial post definitively. And I'm a big fan of the chocolate easter bunny...as long as I get to claim the ears

 

[graceanne]

Definately fascinating ideas here, and thought-provoking. Personally I don't believe it's possible to answer the initial post definitively. And I'm a big fan of the chocolate easter bunny...as long as I get to claim the ears

You do NOT want to get in between me and chocolate, girlfriend.

 

[DeservingBitch]

People, you are impressing me.

Not only did you successfully manage to hijack a thread (the usual), but you did it with another meaningful topic of discussion (not so usual) which doesn't involve any of the following: food or fashion choices. Considering that ITW has been an active poster in this thread, it is really impressive.

Of course, religion came up though. I'm not naming names.

I love this board.

 

[graceanne]

People, you are impressing me.

Not only did you successfully manage to hijack a thread (the usual), but you did it with another meaningful topic of discussion (not so usual) which doesn't involve any of the following: food or fashion choices. Considering that ITW has been an active poster in this thread, it is really impressive.

Of course, religion came up though. I'm not naming names.

I love this board.

I did what? A meaningful topic? Shit, I'm gonna ruin my rep!

*get out cookies*

 

[satindesire]

People, you are impressing me.

Not only did you successfully manage to hijack a thread (the usual), but you did it with another meaningful topic of discussion (not so usual) which doesn't involve any of the following: food or fashion choices. Considering that ITW has been an active poster in this thread, it is really impressive.

Of course, religion came up though. I'm not naming names.

I love this board.

*does a horrible fake offended attitude* what, I ask...WHAT is so wrong about talking about fashion?!

*Pulls ITW to the side and huddles her up with Starbucks and starts giggling about the new Liz Claiborn purse she bought*

 

[intothewoods]

*does a horrible fake offended attitude* what, I ask...WHAT is so wrong about talking about fashion?!

*Pulls ITW to the side and huddles her up with Starbucks and starts giggling about the new Liz Claiborn purse she bought*

Woot - what color?

People, you are impressing me.

Not only did you successfully manage to hijack a thread (the usual), but you did it with another meaningful topic of discussion (not so usual) which doesn't involve any of the following: food or fashion choices. Considering that ITW has been an active poster in this thread, it is really impressive.

Of course, religion came up though. I'm not naming names.

I love this board.

In my defense, I did not bring up religion first!

 

[ecstaticsub]

Cynicism has become my culture apparently

ETA: Really, it does come down to me being overwhelmed by the holiday displays, and how stores start pimping holiday merchandise so damned early every year. And how many peopl eI know for whom my list is the only truth they know. Yeah, we've got people here that are posting about how much the holidays mean, but there are loads and loads of folks on this board for whom those holidays mean exactly what I posted and thus they have no reason to post.

And, as an aside, if I were to write that list for myself, Veteran's Day and Memorial Day are both quietly sad days of contemplation of the veterans in my family and the folks that came before me that died in service to this country and those that carried old wounds to their grave. And for the past coupla years there has been bitter anger there too at the men and women dying in a foreing land that I can't give enough of a shit about to kill people over. Christmas and Halloween are days for my kids. Other holidays are excuses for the family to get together.

When I read that list I thought it was for yourself and I wondered how someone from a military family could observe Memorial Day and Veterans Day that way. So thanks for the aside. Those days are very important to us. We put out our flags on the lawn. We go to the local Memorial ceremony during the day. In the evening we talk with the children about the men and women that we know personally who are serving our country in far away lands and those who won't ever be coming home.

We don't go to church regularly but we are a highly spiritual family. Easter and Christmas are much more than days to get presents and candy.

Since we are usually far from extended family on all holidays we have made up our own rituals. I have found that these rituals (mostly for Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Halloween, last and first days of school) when we do them the same wherever we happen to move are things that the children really look forward to.

 

[ecstaticsub]

And on the topic of being weird....

BDSMers really aren't all that weird. It's also not the only kink out there. When I am on the wifesharing site I go to there will be occasionally discussions about D/s or BDSM and there will be a few people who will make snide remarks but I usually remind them that many BDSMers would think wifesharing would be weird too. (especially since so many don't practice safer sex)

I have had occasions where I have been out and have felt the need to defend BDSM. I have to keep this side of my life very private, but I never let the comments just go by without some discussion of support.

 

[satindesire]

Woot - what color?



In my defense, I did not bring up religion first!

Oh girl, it's so nice. Tan with the LC logo embroidered in a gold-shimmery sort of thread that's a little lighter than the purse so it stands out, with a medium brown strap.

It's a medium-large structured bad that's big enough to hold my Splenda, salad dressing, makeup, hairbrush, planner, keys, wallet, mace...." *rambles on and on about the black-hole like ability for her bag to fit everything in her apartment*

*Sticks her tongue out petulantly at DB*

 

[intothewoods]

Oh girl, it's so nice. Tan with the LC logo embroidered in a gold-shimmery sort of thread that's a little lighter than the purse so it stands out, with a medium brown strap.

It's a medium-large structured bad that's big enough to hold my Splenda, salad dressing, makeup, hairbrush, planner, keys, wallet, mace...." *rambles on and on about the black-hole like ability for her bag to fit everything in her apartment*

*Sticks her tongue out petulantly at DB*

You have salad dressing in your purse?

Oh look. We discussed fashion and food now!

Back to the subject of what's weird...I have a different perspective than some of you, I think, in that I was "weird" for as far back as I can remember -- I was one of a few jews in my school, kid of lefties in a more conservative town, etc. I also was raised by parents who were heavily involved in the anti-war movement in the 60s. My idea of conventionality (if that's what you want to call it) is not ever going to be a Norman Rockwell painting or whatever.

 

[Homburg]

When I read that list I thought it was for yourself and I wondered how someone from a military family could observe Memorial Day and Veterans Day that way. So thanks for the aside. Those days are very important to us. We put out our flags on the lawn. We go to the local Memorial ceremony during the day. In the evening we talk with the children about the men and women that we know personally who are serving our country in far away lands and those who won't ever be coming home.

That's the biggest reason why I clarified. I may be cynical, but I am not soulless. Those two days mean quite a bit to me. I also tend to get thoughtful in a similar way on December 7th.

I've had discussions with my kids about it, but they're still pretty young. they think it's really neat that grandpa used to jump out of airplanes and that grandaddy used to sail the oceans (viv's dad was USCG, and saw service in Viet Nam). The fact that their great grandfather was in the war in Korea has no meaning for them, as he passed away years before they were born. And the great uncles of mine that hit the beaches on Normandy, and another that was in Viet Nam, and my dad in the GW1, and my friends over there now (Only one currently, thank goodness)... My kids don't get it, but they listen.

My generation in my dad's family is the first that has not produced someone in the military. Prior to that, there has been someone from my family in uniform in basically every war that has been fought since the Civil War.

I wonder if any of my kids will serve. I could see my oldest son doing it.

But, yeah, I think about Memorial Day and Veteran's Day.

 

[graceanne]

That's the biggest reason why I clarified. I may be cynical, but I am not soulless. Those two days mean quite a bit to me. I also tend to get thoughtful in a similar way on December 7th.

I've had discussions with my kids about it, but they're still pretty young. they think it's really neat that grandpa used to jump out of airplanes and that grandaddy used to sail the oceans (viv's dad was USCG, and saw service in Viet Nam). The fact that their great grandfather was in the war in Korea has no meaning for them, as he passed away years before they were born. And the great uncles of mine that hit the beaches on Normandy, and another that was in Viet Nam, and my dad in the GW1, and my friends over there now (Only one currently, thank goodness)... My kids don't get it, but they listen.

My generation in my dad's family is the first that has not produced someone in the military. Prior to that, there has been someone from my family in uniform in basically every war that has been fought since the Civil War.

I wonder if any of my kids will serve. I could see my oldest son doing it.

But, yeah, I think about Memorial Day and Veteran's Day.

I know what you mean. I tell my kids about my great-uncle who died, at only 18 years old, in WWII - shot by a nazi soldier. Or my grandpa nearly dying in Korea and my uncle nearly dying in Vietnam, but they don't get it. Anymore than they understand why I still cry when I think about 9/11. I still tell them, because history is important.

 

[Homburg]

I know what you mean. I tell my kids about my great-uncle who died, at only 18 years old, in WWII - shot by a nazi soldier. Or my grandpa nearly dying in Korea and my uncle nearly dying in Vietnam, but they don't get it. Anymore than they understand why I still cry when I think about 9/11. I still tell them, because history is important.

That's just it. It's more personal to you and I. I knew my great uncle Ed. He hurt every day of his life and walked with a limp because of wounds he took on Normandy. I don't remember him well because he died when I was fairly young, but he was a real person. When I watch movies like "Saving Private Ryan" I can honestly say that I kne wmen that lived through those horrific initial scenes. And my grandfather that rarely talked about Korea, or fathers of friends growing up that lived through hell in Southeast Asia.

But when our kids have kids they'll probably be unhappy about the fact that their kids have no concept of the Gulf Wars.