On identity politics or why can't we just agree to being weirdos

[midwestyankee]

That's just it. It's more personal to you and I. I knew my great uncle Ed. He hurt every day of his life and walked with a limp because of wounds he took on Normandy. I don't remember him well because he died when I was fairly young, but he was a real person. When I watch movies like "Saving Private Ryan" I can honestly say that I knew men that lived through those horrific initial scenes. And my grandfather that rarely talked about Korea, or fathers of friends growing up that lived through hell in Southeast Asia.

But when our kids have kids they'll probably be unhappy about the fact that their kids have no concept of the Gulf Wars.

I want my children's children to be happy that there were no wars for them to have to understand in real time.

This thread has taken some interesting twists and turns. Culture, clearly, is deeply important to us - even when we think that we lack it for the most part. I wonder the extent to which any of look forward to a time when our kinky practices are considered equally in framing our culture as our treatment of holidays and other more common practices.

I admire DB for staking out the position that kinky people ought to look to the potential to change our world so that the world accepts kink more readily than it does now. Yes, a certain amount of progress has been made since the Salem Witch Trials and even since the McCarthy era when people like Bettie Page were being hounded as symbols of a practice seen as dangerous to society. But we could use a lot more progress on this front.

 

[Homburg]

I want my children's children to be happy that there were no wars for them to have to understand in real time.
.

Given the way oil is going, you might get to see that. Can't hie off to foreign lands and kill people if we can't afford to get there, and can't afford to do anything once we get there anyway =P

 

[Netzach]

I want my children's children to be happy that there were no wars for them to have to understand in real time.

This thread has taken some interesting twists and turns. Culture, clearly, is deeply important to us - even when we think that we lack it for the most part. I wonder the extent to which any of look forward to a time when our kinky practices are considered equally in framing our culture as our treatment of holidays and other more common practices.

I admire DB for staking out the position that kinky people ought to look to the potential to change our world so that the world accepts kink more readily than it does now. Yes, a certain amount of progress has been made since the Salem Witch Trials and even since the McCarthy era when people like Bettie Page were being hounded as symbols of a practice seen as dangerous to society. But we could use a lot more progress on this front.

Maybe they're two fronts of the same war.

I think the internet is possibly the greatest ever tool to PROVE that female sexuality is real, important, diverse, lives and breathes.

I think it's kind of dually important to point out that soccer moms like to fuck and sometimes fuck weird, AND that there are a lot more freaky women fucking weird than anyone ever thought to estimate.

 

[gingermango]

I think it's kind of dually important to point out that soccer moms like to fuck and sometimes fuck weird, AND that there are a lot more freaky women fucking weird than anyone ever thought to estimate.

Anecdotal case in point: my (dominant) wife and partner in life, sex and everything in between is, in point of fact, a very sexy, very freaky woman who likes to fuck weird (weirdly? ), and to do it weird (weirdly?) a hell of a lot more often than merely "sometimes."

 

[intothewoods]

Maybe they're two fronts of the same war.

I think the internet is possibly the greatest ever tool to PROVE that female sexuality is real, important, diverse, lives and breathes.

I think it's kind of dually important to point out that soccer moms like to fuck and sometimes fuck weird, AND that there are a lot more freaky women fucking weird than anyone ever thought to estimate.

My feminism includes my strong belief in the universal right to hot, freaky sex if you want it.

What's interesting to me is that women reach a certain age and either complain about how much they hate sex, and wish they could just be left alone, or they become complete sex fiends who want it all, including sexual satisfaction. I don't know if it's a hormonal shift thing, or if it just depends on the level of sexual awareness she has, or what.

 

[midwestyankee]

Maybe they're two fronts of the same war.

I think the internet is possibly the greatest ever tool to PROVE that female sexuality is real, important, diverse, lives and breathes.

I think it's kind of dually important to point out that soccer moms like to fuck and sometimes fuck weird, AND that there are a lot more freaky women fucking weird than anyone ever thought to estimate.

Absolutely - the Internet is a world-changing engine. As with any new technology, it seems, the Internet has been expanded and exploited and improved by those who would use it to further their sexual interests and profit from the sexual interests of others.

But unlike the printing press, which took a hundred years or so to become fully integrated into society, the Internet has taken a mere 10 years to reach a near saturation point in nearly all countries (John McCain notwithstanding, of course). This explosion has put the Internet (and its incumbent publishing power) into the hands of women in a way that the printing press never could. The Internet is cheap, widespread, and easy to use. With no financial hurdles to leap and relatively few cultural obstacles to bypass (China, anyone?), women and their surrogates have been able to tell their stories to anyone with a computer.

It's a good thing, to quote someone I usually ignore.

 

[Netzach]

Anecdotal case in point: my (dominant) wife and partner in life, sex and everything in between is, in point of fact, a very sexy, very freaky woman who likes to fuck weird (weirdly? ), and to do it weird (weirdly?) a hell of a lot more often than merely "sometimes."

....and sometimes fuck weird all the time, eh?

 

[Netzach]

Absolutely - the Internet is a world-changing engine. As with any new technology, it seems, the Internet has been expanded and exploited and improved by those who would use it to further their sexual interests and profit from the sexual interests of others.

But unlike the printing press, which took a hundred years or so to become fully integrated into society, the Internet has taken a mere 10 years to reach a near saturation point in nearly all countries (John McCain notwithstanding, of course). This explosion has put the Internet (and its incumbent publishing power) into the hands of women in a way that the printing press never could. The Internet is cheap, widespread, and easy to use. With no financial hurdles to leap and relatively few cultural obstacles to bypass (China, anyone?), women and their surrogates have been able to tell their stories to anyone with a computer.

It's a good thing, to quote someone I usually ignore.

It's amazing. M was telling me about the DNS bug last night and I was losing my shit - because if the 'net went down we'd now have a giant HGWells moment of worldwide panic - over this thing that wasn't a big deal 15 years ago at all.

 

[midwestyankee]

It's amazing. M was telling me about the DNS bug last night and I was losing my shit - because if the 'net went down we'd now have a giant HGWells moment of worldwide panic - over this thing that wasn't a big deal 15 years ago at all.

If we all end up huddling in a culvert somewhere, will you share my culvert with me?

 

[gingermango]

....and sometimes fuck weird all the time, eh?

Sometimes even do so after soccer games, yes. In fact, there are at least two other moms connected with this team that routinely get my kinky-senses tingling.

 

[Sharon_]

I am in a profession that would blacklist me the moment they found out I had that kind of 'darkside'. So in that regard, I guess I am a closet BDSM'er.

I'm failing to grasp why your bedroom antics would ever be part of the interview process. I'm sure if there are "nilla" (gads, another label) men standing around the board room giving blow by blow details on how they bang their wife, that they are not promoted, either...cuz that's just weird and shows a distinct lack of decorum and tact.

So barring arrest, if you sex life becomes part of the interview process it would be because *you* brought it there, no?

Got nothing to do with the closet. I don't provide a public Daily BM Report on volume, consistency et al but it isn't because bowel movements are "in the closet", but because that would be weird.

Dollparts on the GB does that...along with detailed descriptions of every pus filled boil. It's weird.

 

[Netzach]

If we all end up huddling in a culvert somewhere, will you share my culvert with me?

We'd fill it with food.

 

[Netzach]

I'm failing to grasp why your bedroom antics would ever be part of the interview process. I'm sure if there are "nilla" (gads, another label) men standing around the board room giving blow by blow details on how they bang their wife, that they are not promoted, either...cuz that's just weird and shows a distinct lack of decorum and tact.

So barring arrest, if you sex life becomes part of the interview process it would be because *you* brought it there, no?

Got nothing to do with the closet. I don't provide a public Daily BM Report on volume, consistency et al but it isn't because bowel movements are "in the closet", but because that would be weird.

Dollparts on the GB does that...along with detailed descriptions of every pus filled boil. It's weird.

That's ideal, really but it's naive to think no one's looking into anyone's life - there's a level of exposure between "hey, I got fucked up the ass this weekend, what'd you do?" and being so isolated from others of your ilk lest anyone think you exist where most mainstream people exist.

If I want to hold hands with someone of the same sex, or date a fetish model or whatever it should not put me out of a livelihood.

 

[graceanne]

That's just it. It's more personal to you and I. I knew my great uncle Ed. He hurt every day of his life and walked with a limp because of wounds he took on Normandy. I don't remember him well because he died when I was fairly young, but he was a real person. When I watch movies like "Saving Private Ryan" I can honestly say that I kne wmen that lived through those horrific initial scenes. And my grandfather that rarely talked about Korea, or fathers of friends growing up that lived through hell in Southeast Asia.

Pretty much. I've also watched my grandma grieve every day of her life for her brother, who was also her best friend. She's got a picture of him, on the wall, but she won't talk about him. At. All. Sometimes, if we're lucky, she'll tell stories of him when they were young, but it hurts her too much to talk about him.

But when our kids have kids they'll probably be unhappy about the fact that their kids have no concept of the Gulf Wars.

Yep, pretty much. And I'm sure our grandchildren will do something similar with theirs.

 

[graceanne]

I want my children's children to be happy that there were no wars for them to have to understand in real time.

Call me a pessimist, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Man kind has not changed enough.

If we all end up huddling in a culvert somewhere, will you share my culvert with me?

Oh. Sorry, I used that culvert to stock up on my cookies.

Oh, I'd be careful, I uh . . put traps around it.

We'd fill it with food.

Too late! Already did!

 

[Homburg]

Pretty much. I've also watched my grandma grieve every day of her life for her brother, who was also her best friend. She's got a picture of him, on the wall, but she won't talk about him. At. All. Sometimes, if we're lucky, she'll tell stories of him when they were young, but it hurts her too much to talk about him.

I remember my grandfather talking about Korea once. He was an evil old bastard, and I've talked about him many times here, but he was also the single toughest man I've ever known. I would believe that he could've made it through anything at all, and not even blinked, and he survived shit that killed normal men many, many times.

The memories of what happened in Korea bothered him until the day he died. Like I said, he only talked about it once, and I don't recall why, but it was like the room got cold for him, and he was freezing in the godawful snow, and frostbitten (he had a lot of scars from frostbite), and he was there, not in his living room, talking about how his unit got abandoned when the pull out was ordered, and the things he did to get out of that place. And evil and shameless as he was, he said that there were things he and his squad did that he would never talk about. Things that bothered even him. I think it was the only time I got a clue that he had a conscience, and not just a warped sense of honor.

Veteran's day and Memorial Day are two days a year when I recognise that he wasn't all bad. I remember all the times as a kid when he showed me how to do something, or taught me some trick, or whatever little tidbit of attention he paid me. I figure it's okay to miss him on those two days.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm failing to grasp why your bedroom antics would ever be part of the interview process. I'm sure if there are "nilla" (gads, another label) men standing around the board room giving blow by blow details on how they bang their wife, that they are not promoted, either...cuz that's just weird and shows a distinct lack of decorum and tact.

So barring arrest, if you sex life becomes part of the interview process it would be because *you* brought it there, no?

Got nothing to do with the closet. I don't provide a public Daily BM Report on volume, consistency et al but it isn't because bowel movements are "in the closet", but because that would be weird.

Dollparts on the GB does that...along with detailed descriptions of every pus filled boil. It's weird.

What if I go to a kink party, and my boss's 21 year old niece is there. And then we meet again at my boss's Chistmas pary, and she rats me out to him. There is an annual bdsm event in my city held in a hotel. All of the events are held in the lower floor ballrooms. However, there are plenty of vanilla people in the hotel at the same time, and in the lobby, the bar, restaurant, etc. If I dress a little freaky, but still street legal, on my way to the event, and then run into someone from work, it would cause a stir. Would I get fired? Doubt it. But who knows? Just saying, there are plenty of ways these things come up.

 

[TerragonSix]

What if I go to a kink party, and my boss's 21 year old niece is there. And then we meet again at my boss's Chistmas pary, and she rats me out to him. There is an annual bdsm event in my city held in a hotel. All of the events are held in the lower floor ballrooms. However, there are plenty of vanilla people in the hotel at the same time, and in the lobby, the bar, restaurant, etc. If I dress a little freaky, but still street legal, on my way to the event, and then run into someone from work, it would cause a stir. Would I get fired? Doubt it. But who knows? Just saying, there are plenty of ways these things come up.

That's part of the situation I am in as well. Legally, they can't disqualify you from a job in the fire department because of your sexual tendencies. But, they can disqualify you for a hundred different reasons, rules and regulations, if they decide to invoke them. In other words, if there is any 'extracurricular activities' that the hiring chief doesn't much approve of, he could, legitimately turn the undesirable down for one of a hundred 'non-issue' reasons. No, it's not right. But it's very true.

 

[EmpressFi]

What if I go to a kink party, and my boss's 21 year old niece is there. And then we meet again at my boss's Chistmas pary, and she rats me out to him. There is an annual bdsm event in my city held in a hotel. All of the events are held in the lower floor ballrooms. However, there are plenty of vanilla people in the hotel at the same time, and in the lobby, the bar, restaurant, etc. If I dress a little freaky, but still street legal, on my way to the event, and then run into someone from work, it would cause a stir. Would I get fired? Doubt it. But who knows? Just saying, there are plenty of ways these things come up.

That's part of the situation I am in as well. Legally, they can't disqualify you from a job in the fire department because of your sexual tendencies. But, they can disqualify you for a hundred different reasons, rules and regulations, if they decide to invoke them. In other words, if there is any 'extracurricular activities' that the hiring chief doesn't much approve of, he could, legitimately turn the undesirable down for one of a hundred 'non-issue' reasons. No, it's not right. But it's very true.

exactly..

My job couldnt fire me for that, but they do retain a clause in my contract that says they can fire me for any reason they see fit.

Perfect example is my stalker co-worker. Now his problem is that he was stupid. He posted all his BDSM M/s stuff about his wife, and his attempts at suicide publicly on LiveJournal. A few of our co-workers were on his friends list and when he posted that he'd almost took a flying leap off his building because of marital problems.. the concerned co-worker went to our boss.. who promptly took him off night schedule, demoted him from being a supervisor, (to lower his stress level) and put him on medical leave under the condition that he get treatment for his mental health issues. Now, supposedly, she told me about it only because she saw my name on his friend's list and wanted to know if I thought he was seeking attention or really suicidal.. but I dont know how many other she told... at least 2... but we're a small office. They didnt fire him, but he's been passed over for every promotion he's tried for, because they're afraid of his mental state.

What if he'd mentioned that Malin and I were poly and into BDSM in one of those posts. It's bad enough that she knows I take vacations when Malin doesnt (she's my boss, she approves them).

So no, it's not something we're allowed to ask during interviews and it's not something I bring up to management, but there are ways, no matter how careful, that people could find out.

 

[Sharon_]

exactly..

My job couldnt fire me for that, but they do retain a clause in my contract that says they can fire me for any reason they see fit.

Unless you're under a Union contract, that's true for every employee barring legal limitations (race, religion, age)....and even then, try and mount an effective case with the EEOC proving they fired you cuz you're old. Try and prove you were passed over for promotion because you're fat. Try and prove you weren't hired for a job because you're obviously pregnant. Same applies for race/religion.

Perfect example is my stalker co-worker. Now his problem is that he was stupid. He posted all his BDSM M/s stuff about his wife, and his attempts at suicide publicly on LiveJournal. A few of our co-workers were on his friends list and when he posted that he'd almost took a flying leap off his building because of marital problems.. the concerned co-worker went to our boss.. who promptly took him off night schedule, demoted him from being a supervisor, (to lower his stress level) and put him on medical leave under the condition that he get treatment for his mental health issues. Now, supposedly, she told me about it only because she saw my name on his friend's list and wanted to know if I thought he was seeking attention or really suicidal.. but I dont know how many other she told... at least 2... but we're a small office. They didnt fire him, but he's been passed over for every promotion he's tried for, because they're afraid of his mental state.

Breaking it down into single components:
1. He took his bedroom activities out of the private and into the public domain. Live Journal is not a private diary. BDSM Talk is not a private club. He was performing on a world stage; worse, a world stage that is permanently archived somewhere, probably multiple somewheres. Internet is forever.

2. He wasn't demoted for his sexual activity, he was demoted because of his unstable behavior - multiple suicide attempts and stalking. You used stalker in the present tense, so prolly continued unstable behavior. I don't think there's a soul alive that would try to argue stalking isn't crazy.

3. Prolly wasn't a wise move for the supervisor to discuss it, but then again - she isn't the one who put his behavior into the public domain, he is - on a world stage, no less.

What if he'd mentioned that Malin and I were poly and into BDSM in one of those posts. It's bad enough that she knows I take vacations when Malin doesnt (she's my boss, she approves them).

Why would you give a crazy suicidal stalker blow by blow details about your sex life? Now you've given him something to permanently hold over your head....and it doesn't particular matter that it's bdsm related, it could be any private issue you don't want made public.

How does your supervisor know when Malin takes vacations, why would she care if she does know? Lots of couples take separate vacations and I don't think most people, if they think about it at all, would link it to sexual activity. I just don't take an interest in what adults I know do behind closed doors - simply not my business - nor do I particularly want to hear about it, and I'm far from alone in that.

So no, it's not something we're allowed to ask during interviews and it's not something I bring up to management, but there are ways, no matter how careful, that people could find out.

But he wasn't demoted for having sex. He wasn't even demoted for being a crazed stalker. He was removed from supervising others because he was suicidal.

 

[Sharon_]

That's part of the situation I am in as well. Legally, they can't disqualify you from a job in the fire department because of your sexual tendencies. But, they can disqualify you for a hundred different reasons, rules and regulations, if they decide to invoke them. In other words, if there is any 'extracurricular activities' that the hiring chief doesn't much approve of, he could, legitimately turn the undesirable down for one of a hundred 'non-issue' reasons. No, it's not right. But it's very true.

Sure. That is always the way - bosses pass over fat people if they feel like it. They pass over old people.

Those things are obvious and in the public domain, unless you're a hermit. My question is why are you worried about your bedroom behavior becoming something for public consumption thus subject to employer whims given you've said you keep your bedroom behavior behind closed doors not because you're under threat but because that's your nature?

 

[Sharon_]

What if I go to a kink party, and my boss's 21 year old niece is there. And then we meet again at my boss's Chistmas pary, and she rats me out to him. There is an annual bdsm event in my city held in a hotel. All of the events are held in the lower floor ballrooms. However, there are plenty of vanilla people in the hotel at the same time, and in the lobby, the bar, restaurant, etc. If I dress a little freaky, but still street legal, on my way to the event, and then run into someone from work, it would cause a stir. Would I get fired? Doubt it. But who knows? Just saying, there are plenty of ways these things come up.

I imagine your boss would even less want to hear that his 21-yo niece was attending sex parties than one of his employees is. I imagine he doesn't want to have 'young niece' and 'sex' in the same thought stream at all.

By dressing in that way you are advertising your sex life, bringing it into the public domain. If you don't want your sex life to become fodder for public consumption, then don't put it in the public eye. Simple.

But ya can't have it both ways - 'I want to throw my sex life out into the public domain but don't dare hold opinions, comment or pass judgement on my sex life'.

There are companies who have a no smoking policy, and will fire employees they catch smoking. Thus, if one of those employees is a smoker - perfectly legal activity - then it would behoove him/her not to light up in public places if they want to keep that job.

If you want to bring your sexual activity into the public domain via attending sex parties and wearing certain accoutrements in public on the way to those parties then that's your choice...but if you know your boss doesn't approve of overt public sexual behavior because it may reflect poorly on the image the company is trying to project, then it's prolly not a good idea.

I'm not judging anyone here - I could care less how anyone else has sex. I'm simply saying that what one does behind closed doors stays behind closed doors unless they decide to make it a public issue. If one wants their sex life to remain private, then they need to not put it out on public display. Once something is put into the public arena, no matter what it is, it becomes open for discussion/debate/public opinion/commentary.

 

[intothewoods]

I imagine your boss would even less want to hear that his 21-yo niece was attending sex parties than one of his employees is. I imagine he doesn't want to have 'young niece' and 'sex' in the same thought stream at all.

By dressing in that way you are advertising your sex life, bringing it into the public domain. If you don't want your sex life to become fodder for public consumption, then don't put it in the public eye. Simple.

But ya can't have it both ways - 'I want to throw my sex life out into the public domain but don't dare hold opinions, comment or pass judgement on my sex life'.

There are companies who have a no smoking policy, and will fire employees they catch smoking. Thus, if one of those employees is a smoker - perfectly legal activity - then it would behoove him/her not to light up in public places if they want to keep that job.

If you want to bring your sexual activity into the public domain via attending sex parties and wearing certain accoutrements in public on the way to those parties then that's your choice...but if you know your boss doesn't approve of overt public sexual behavior because it may reflect poorly on the image the company is trying to project, then it's prolly not a good idea.

I'm not judging anyone here - I could care less how anyone else has sex. I'm simply saying that what one does behind closed doors stays behind closed doors unless they decide to make it a public issue. If one wants their sex life to remain private, then they need to not put it out on public display. Once something is put into the public arena, no matter what it is, it becomes open for discussion/debate/public opinion/commentary.

My point is that it's easy to slip up.

As to the example with my hypothetical boss and his hypothetical niece. He might be okay with his wild and crazy niece (i.e., and listen to her stories), but not want to know that his employee is wild and crazy on her own time.

None of this has actually been an issue for me, but it does give me pause.

 

[Netzach]

Commentary isn't the same as employment discrimination. I don't care what people think, though I prefer they keep it to themselves, just as I would about them. I don't walk up to repulsive straight people with repulsive hordes of smeary children and tell them I think they're trash and should try BC. But the courtesy isn't extended in my direction.


I'll buy the "keep it in private" argument the day that a mainstream corporate job isn't a drunken titty-bar lunch constant innuendo high school sex ewwwwww!!!!! social scene. Either no one wants to think about your genitals no matter who you're screwing or there's a ridiculous double standard in play.

It's perfectly fine and in fact encouraged for you to be an asshole if you are straight. But make sure no one sees you on your staid and normal dinner date if your date is TG.

 

[intothewoods]

Commentary isn't the same as employment discrimination. I don't care what people think, though I prefer they keep it to themselves, just as I would about them. I don't walk up to repulsive straight people with repulsive hordes of smeary children and tell them I think they're trash and should try BC. But the courtesy isn't extended in my direction.


I'll buy the "keep it in private" argument the day that a mainstream corporate job isn't a drunken titty-bar lunch constant innuendo high school sex ewwwwww!!!!! social scene. Either no one wants to think about your genitals no matter who you're screwing or there's a ridiculous double standard in play.

It's perfectly fine and in fact encouraged for you to be an asshole if you are straight. But make sure no one sees you on your staid and normal dinner date if your date is TG.

This is a good example of the blurred line between identity and bedroom behavior. If I get fired for hanging out with my friend in drag, but some old straight dude can hang out with a might-be hooker (no offense, some of my friends are hookers - seriously!) and it's no biggie, that's fucked up.