On identity politics or why can't we just agree to being weirdos

[vampire28]

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "normal". I think it's a term that people use to make themselves feel part of a group, whether that's the large group of "most" people or a smaller group that believes/practices the same/similar behaviors.

At best normal is a relative term. What is normal for one person is not normal for another.

I've never considered myself to be normal, but I've never particularly considered myself to be weird. I am eccentric...which to be honest is probably just another way of saying weird.

As far as being in the closet about what one believes...I think very few people are absolutely honest with the world about what they believe. Virtually all of us have some element of our personality that we share with very few others.

I do agree that the desire to keep some part of ourselves secret doesn't excuse the failure to stand up for someone who is being oppressed or mistreated. I believe that failing to stand up for someone else, whether I believe the same as they do or not, is just wrong. Sometimes it's a hard thing to do, but I feel that if I don't stand up for them, then sometime when I need someone to stand up for me there won't be anyone there.

Just my two cents.

 

[Yasashii_Kaze]

I'm weird. I'm freaky. I have deep, dark secrets that no one will ever know. Who cares? If you don't like it, don't have anything to do with me. I won't miss you.

 

[intothewoods]

Well, it's kind of hard to model that if you're two moms or two dads or all your friends are two mom two dad households or you're in a stable triad and someone has a kid. Most kids I know in non-traditional families don't go the serious backlash route of "must be mainstream" though, if the job's done right they're happy they didn't grow up like that. What you're saying is nice, but it's kind of the "I'll let my young children choose their religion" line - you kind of have to pick by not picking.

Ick. I don't like the let kids pick their own religion people!

I'm not saying you should model a straight monogamous family. I'm saying that whatever you model, your kids should feel like they can be who they want to be too. It's not as vague as it sounds, actually. The important thing is that the environment is safe and stable. Like DB's example of the people who want to hang out at a bathhouse every night. Go ahead, but don't think you're ready for a kid.

And the parent or parents need to be the parent, and not a kid him or herself, rebelling against society, his or her own parents, etc. It's pretty freaky for a kid when parents project that much insecurity onto them.

 

[Homburg]

Ick. I don't like the let kids pick their own religion people!

I'm not saying you should model a straight monogamous family. I'm saying that whatever you model, your kids should feel like they can be who they want to be too.

Um, I'm confused. You don' tlike the "pick your own religion" crowd, but you feel like kids should decide who they are? Um..

This is not stab at how you are raising your kid, by the way. You've said before, it is a cultural decision, not a religious one. So I am not calling you out at all. Just trying to understand why religious choice is bad but they should decide for themselves elsewhere. Or am I just not tracking on the statement as a whole?

 

[YourCaptor]

Netzach already said half of what I wanted to say about this, but let me clarify again.

The inspiration for this thread was not about being closeted or not. I'm not exactly closeted about my life, but I'm fully aware that I am privileged to live in a space where I can be somewhat out about it without it affecting my job or being beaten up. It's actually the very straight vanilla part of my sex life that I'm closeted about, ie, sex work. But that's beside the point.

What I was getting at is this tendency for people in this community to rationalize or justify demands for respect based on the fact that we are 'normal' people, but with a different sexuality. And of course, this often includes explanations that everything we do is very mondane really, all safe, sane, and consentual and stuff. I'm not rolling my eyes on the SSC - I do think it makes sense. But when we go this route in the mainstream, we are necessarily excluding some people from this community (those who don't play by SSC, those who have indeed low self-esteem, does who do suffer from mental illness, those who have been abused, etc.), and thus at least excusing the discrimination and abuse *they* get from society and the law. But *we* are not like *them*, *we* are not the freaks, *we* are respectable bourgeois who deserve society's respect, because *we* are normal people, who just happen to get wet/hard on some weird stuff.

In the thread I refered to in my original post, many got offended by the OP's question about domination/dominants. Of course his question was frame in a way that implied that there was something wrong with people who want to dominate others. Not a very original claim, and something most of us should be used to hear from non-kinksters by now. But what stood out for me was the refusal of many to actually consider the fact that yes, indeed, it is very much possible that someone wants/needs to dominate their partner because they feel powerless in other aspects of their life, or because they have low self-esteem, or whatever. As I've said before, my enjoyement in humiliating grown up white men certainly has something to do with my social position in the current sexist world I live in. It's not all there is, but it is there.

Going back to the political implications of this reflection, I see a parallel with the way the queer/gay community has been making political claims and demands for rights and equality. A certain segment of the community was advocating with the rational that we are just normal people with a different sexuality, but we also want a family, we are totally monogamous, we have normal job, we want kids and a house in the burbs, no we don't sleep around, etc.

What about those in the queer/gay community who actually do NOT aspire to this het monogamous family model? What about those who actually enjoy going to the bathhouses every week-end? What about those who actually engage in unsafe sex practices? What about those who have multiple partners? Are they less deserving of rights and equality? Do they deserve the abuse and discrimination?

Hmm... this is hard to articulate.

Claiming to be weird is not the answer here, because the type of normal in this discussion is no as concentrated as say, WASP.

In this case, at least my impression of normal is, someone who can live in this society, whether you love it or settle for it.

Not normal would be someone who is so different that they can't function without destroying it.

Have you seen the too submissive for france thread?

 

[greeneyed_Lady]

Ick. I don't like the let kids pick their own religion people!

I'm one of those people ITW. I have not, for many reasons, chosen to bring my children up with a particular religion. I am not an athiest for I do believe, but what I believe is far from what many mainstream organizations teach or follow, so I choose to follow my own path, much like where my sexuality is concerned.

While I am not out of the bdsm closet, I am not entirely in it either. The people that matter to me most are fully aware of who and what I am, and who and what I do. The ones that don't, have no need to know, or it would not be of any benefit for them to know.

I also have to agree totally with what Sharon_ said.

I object. Of COURSE your sex life is supposed to be in the closet....as is mine. That's why it's called "private". You do yourself a disservice by thinking of yourself as "being in the closet". I am neither sub nor dom but that is completely irrelevant.

What I do or do not sexually is no one's affair but mine and my (consensual) participant(s) - or lack of same; nor do I have a right to shove my bedroom antics (or lack of same) up the nose of the general populace.

I reject entirely the notion of labeling someone's sex life and forcing the private into the public domain.

And I keep hearing this "in the lifestyle" stuff. What a bunch of bull-donk. My "lifestyle" is an aggregate of ~all~ I do - volunteer work with youth and wildlife and nature and the less fortunate, my subsistence farming, my landscaping, my hobbies, my crafts work, my family, my work....ALL of it. My "lifestyle", or anyone else's, does not consist solely of what types of (consensual) sexual activities they engage in (or not).

By labeling one small portion of one's life a "lifestyle" connotes that is ALL they do.

That's ridiculous, and if true...incredibly sad...cuz life is so much richer and diverse a tapestry than to limit/label oneself by obsessing over one aspect.

One doesn't refer to oneself as "being in the lifestyle" because one swims, or "being in the lifestyle" because one camps & hikes. To refer to sexual activity that way is utterly absurd.

Or am I missing something?

I do not go about my life preaching the pleasures of bdsm. Most of the time it isn't even something I discuss with the majority of people I come in contact with. I will pipe up if I hear people, specifically 'nilla people, discussing it and talking complete crap about it. I have no problem speaking up and correcting misinformation when I hear it.

As for why I have chosen to follow this path, who's to say. I'm a complete and utter sensation whore. I get a rush out of walking the line between pleasure and pain, and a bigger one providing pleasure to my partners. A few years ago I was talking with a friend of mine about it, and equated myself to a modern geisha. I don't think I was far off then. I take great pride in learning what makes my partners tick and purr... it has taken me in many different directions.

Bdsm is but a small part of my life and who I am. It does not define who I am or what kind of a relationship I have or seek.

 

[Netzach]

Ick. I don't like the let kids pick their own religion people!

I'm not saying you should model a straight monogamous family. I'm saying that whatever you model, your kids should feel like they can be who they want to be too. It's not as vague as it sounds, actually. The important thing is that the environment is safe and stable. Like DB's example of the people who want to hang out at a bathhouse every night. Go ahead, but don't think you're ready for a kid.

And the parent or parents need to be the parent, and not a kid him or herself, rebelling against society, his or her own parents, etc. It's pretty freaky for a kid when parents project that much insecurity onto them.

Uh, why?

If I hire a sitter or a nanny and I want to get banged every way to sunday when I go out at night, what's the problem? Assuming they know that Mom went to a party, that I come home sober, and I try not to catch diseases. That they are fed and they go to bed with brushed teeth and a story read. Problem still?

So if you're a sex worker or you are a contract employee or a stuntman or anything that's out of the box and risky in nature, you are not fit?

If I think the society I live in is fucked and I want to change the system I shouldn't share these values, just because they're not stabilizing Mr. Rogers ones?

If my kids think I'm a ranting pinko pain in the ass that's their right. If I raise a union organizer and an artist, I can feel like I've done something not too stupid. I'm basing this on H, not my own childfree to the death ass, but I think I have a fairly good idea from him of what decent parenting done by fairly crazy people who mean right can turn out like. Fairly well.

Parents usually project all the other insecurities onto them, about sex being horrible, about scary black men who will get them in the night, all the complete bullshit myths that this culture invents to keep people scared of each other, difference, and anything out of the box. The things people do in the name of stability and safety are much more detrimental half the time than weird acting out.

 

[graceanne]

Uh, why?

If I hire a sitter or a nanny and I want to get banged every way to sunday when I go out at night, what's the problem? Assuming they know that Mom went to a party, that I come home sober, and I try not to catch diseases. That they are fed and they go to bed with brushed teeth and a story read. Problem still?

So if you're a sex worker or you are a contract employee or a stuntman or anything that's out of the box and risky in nature, you are not fit?

If I think the society I live in is fucked and I want to change the system I shouldn't share these values, just because they're not stabilizing Mr. Rogers ones?

If my kids think I'm a ranting pinko pain in the ass that's their right. If I raise a union organizer and an artist, I can feel like I've done something not too stupid. I'm basing this on H, not my own childfree to the death ass, but I think I have a fairly good idea from him of what decent parenting done by fairly crazy people who mean right can turn out like. Fairly well.

Parents usually project all the other insecurities onto them, about sex being horrible, about scary black men who will get them in the night, all the complete bullshit myths that this culture invents to keep people scared of each other, difference, and anything out of the box. The things people do in the name of stability and safety are much more detrimental half the time than weird acting out.

My best friend is . . . easy. She's also an alcoholic. She's still a good mom. If she plans on going out and/or bringing home a strange man she leaves her daughter at my house.

 

[Homburg]

Parents usually project all the other insecurities onto them, about sex being horrible, about scary black men who will get them in the night, all the complete bullshit myths that this culture invents to keep people scared of each other, difference, and anything out of the box. The things people do in the name of stability and safety are much more detrimental half the time than weird acting out.

I still have some sexual hang-ups thanks to my mother's disgust towards sex. She would always say that it was natural, but would append that it only occurs between a man and wife, and you could hear the distaste in her voice. And any blatant sexual or romantic contact was frowned upon.

As of this moment, the only hang-ups my kids are likely to catch from us would be from viv's nigh-pathological fear of spiders.

 

[Fauna]

I giggle and get wet when I make someone scream of pain. That's not 'normal'.

Thats normal for me! You made me all gooey inside just thinking about it!

 

[Fauna]

Many people don't talk about the intimate details of their sex lives, so how do we really know what is common practice? There could be more people than we have even imagined out there that are into bondage or S&M or any number of things that many societies consider outside the norm. I think there are more possibilities than people, of the variety of what happens in anyone else's bedroom.

What if the first people who did reports on sexuality came across a group like us? BDSM might be considered common practice and "missionary style" could be considered strange and kinky?

I'm just throwing this concept out there....

 

[Netzach]

Many people don't talk about the intimate details of their sex lives, so how do we really know what is common practice? There could be more people than we have even imagined out there that are into bondage or S&M or any number of things that many societies consider outside the norm. I think there are more possibilities than people, of the variety of what happens in anyone else's bedroom.

What if the first people who did reports on sexuality came across a group like us? BDSM might be considered common practice and "missionary style" could be considered strange and kinky?

I'm just throwing this concept out there....

This is a great point.

Because this is so taboo and because it's such a huge spectrum of behavior there's no data. There's no reliable data on anything as simple as "how many people tie one another up during sex?"

It's probably a LOT more common to have some kink than none.

 

[intothewoods]

Uh, why?

If I hire a sitter or a nanny and I want to get banged every way to sunday when I go out at night, what's the problem? Assuming they know that Mom went to a party, that I come home sober, and I try not to catch diseases. That they are fed and they go to bed with brushed teeth and a story read. Problem still?

So if you're a sex worker or you are a contract employee or a stuntman or anything that's out of the box and risky in nature, you are not fit?

If I think the society I live in is fucked and I want to change the system I shouldn't share these values, just because they're not stabilizing Mr. Rogers ones?

If my kids think I'm a ranting pinko pain in the ass that's their right. If I raise a union organizer and an artist, I can feel like I've done something not too stupid. I'm basing this on H, not my own childfree to the death ass, but I think I have a fairly good idea from him of what decent parenting done by fairly crazy people who mean right can turn out like. Fairly well.

Parents usually project all the other insecurities onto them, about sex being horrible, about scary black men who will get them in the night, all the complete bullshit myths that this culture invents to keep people scared of each other, difference, and anything out of the box. The things people do in the name of stability and safety are much more detrimental half the time than weird acting out.

Do I need to define stability? We're not disagreeing. I didn't say Mr. Rogers values. I mean, don't bring home an ever-changing string of lovers and fuck them on the couch while your kid is in the next room. What you do when your kid is home with a sitter is, for the most part, not an issue. There are self-absorbed jackholes who don't actually care about their kids. They'll do whatever they hell they want, because it pleases them in the moment, with no regard for the welfare of their children. It's not all about you when you become a parent.

ETA: My comment about going to the bathhouses included the proviso "every night." It's not the bathhouse per se - it's having some sort of nightly party lifestyle.

We all project some of our own bullshit on our kids. All you can really do is try your best to own it. As far as sex goes, I don't discuss my sex life, but I was raised in a sex positive home, and my home is and will be the same.

Um, I'm confused. You don' tlike the "pick your own religion" crowd, but you feel like kids should decide who they are? Um..

This is not stab at how you are raising your kid, by the way. You've said before, it is a cultural decision, not a religious one. So I am not calling you out at all. Just trying to understand why religious choice is bad but they should decide for themselves elsewhere. Or am I just not tracking on the statement as a whole?

Stab away. Don't worry. I've read your sig line.

Kids do not really consciously decide who they are. My mistake for using the words "what they want to be." It's really what they are. They have their own personalities and identities from a very early age.

 

[Homburg]

Stab away. Don't worry. I've read your sig line.

*snort*

No, seriously, I'm not. I dig what you are doing. It kinda bothers me that my kids have no definable culture to integrate into aside from the mishmash pablum that is "culture" at large in this country.

Kids do not really consciously decide who they are. My mistake for using the words "what they want to be." It's really what they are. They have their own personalities and identities from a very early age.

Okay, I gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Hmm... this is hard to articulate.

Claiming to be weird is not the answer here, because the type of normal in this discussion is no as concentrated as say, WASP.

In this case, at least my impression of normal is, someone who can live in this society, whether you love it or settle for it.

Not normal would be someone who is so different that they can't function without destroying it.

Have you seen the too submissive for france thread?

What about someone who can and does live functionally in this society, but whose political, moral, and ethical beliefs and goals is to actually destroy it? *waves*

Maintaining society (ie, the status quo) is actually the opposite of what I believe in and work for. I'd rather work for something different, where a tiny minority doesn't strive on the back and blood of most everybody else. So I guess I'm really weird then. Yea!

 

[intothewoods]

*snort*

No, seriously, I'm not. I dig what you are doing. It kinda bothers me that my kids have no definable culture to integrate into aside from the mishmash pablum that is "culture" at large in this country.



Okay, I gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

I am a multi-ethnic person. You can pass down a sense of culture and ritual, even if it's a blended one.

I'm one of those people ITW. I have not, for many reasons, chosen to bring my children up with a particular religion. I am not an athiest for I do believe, but what I believe is far from what many mainstream organizations teach or follow, so I choose to follow my own path, much like where my sexuality is concerned.

I was being flip. I just know people who take their kids to every church, mosque and synagogue and then say, choose! When they're, like, 5. How realistic is that?

Kids do get culture, a sense of right and wrong and what's important from you, the parent. So my only point is that you can't really avoid that by not choosing a religion.

 

[Homburg]

I am a multi-ethnic person. You can pass down a sense of culture and ritual, even if it's a blended one.

Culture? Ritual? Pfft, not likely. Sans religion or certain classes, culture and ritual is absent. And the Japanese side of my background was essentially suppressed by my grandmother, so I've got nothing from the side.

 

[Etoile]

Culture? Ritual? Pfft, not likely. Sans religion or certain classes, culture and ritual is absent. And the Japanese side of my background was essentially suppressed by my grandmother, so I've got nothing from the side.

I'm confused here. I celebrate the 4th of July and Hanukkah. I call myself a Jewish-American. Is this not multi-cultural?

 

[Homburg]

I'm confused here. I celebrate the 4th of July and Hanukkah. I call myself a Jewish-American. Is this not multi-cultural?

I was talking specifically about my background.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm confused here. I celebrate the 4th of July and Hanukkah. I call myself a Jewish-American. Is this not multi-cultural?

Personally I think you just like fire. Kidding! I momentarily forgot you were Jewish. We really need to do lunch or something.

Culture? Ritual? Pfft, not likely. Sans religion or certain classes, culture and ritual is absent. And the Japanese side of my background was essentially suppressed by my grandmother, so I've got nothing from the side.

I can't even imagine! I'm practically ritual-obsessed. What about family traditions? You can make your own, you know. Hell, I know how you bdsm-ers love the pagans - most JudeoChristian celebrations have a pagan counterpart.

Why don't I give you some more suggestions? I know how everyone loves when I tell people how to parent.

 

[graceanne]

int is that you can't really avoid that by not choosing a religion.[/QUOTE]

Personally I think you just like fire.

*snort*

I can't even imagine! I'm practically ritual-obsessed. What about family traditions? You can make your own, you know. Hell, I know how you bdsm-ers love the pagans - most JudeoChristian celebrations have a pagan counterpart.

Why don't I give you some more suggestions? I know how everyone loves when I tell people how to parent.

We, as Americans, DO have a culture. It just doesn't feel like we do, because it's ordinary and every day. But if you were to go into another country, like Thailand for example, you'd realize that American's have their own culture. Sure it's a mish-mash of several different cultures, but who cares? It's our culture, and it's just fine.

And, we're not the first to mash together several cultures and make our own. The English, for example. The island, if I remember my history right, was originally habited by the Angle's. Then the Saxons took over, and we got the Angle-Saxon's (or Anglo Saxon). Then the Normans took over. Then their's the combination of genes from Scotland and Ireland and wales. so the English culture is a mishmash of Angle, Saxon, Norman, Welsh and Celtic. And don't forget all those raping/pillaging Vikings adding their genes into the mix. We just don't think of it, cause it was a long time ago. Give us a few thousand years and no one will care that we're a mish-mash of cultures, either.

 

[gingermango]

* * * Complete aside: a professional anthropologist would have a field day with this thread * * *

So, what has anyone actually decided?

A) That it's okay to be openly weird?
B) It's not okay, but being weird in the closet (or to only your closest friends) is fine?
C) We're all/none of us/some of us just unique and valuable however we see and choose to categorize ourselves?
D) Or that we're all really just narcissists who can't see a juicy topic without managing to inject our own beliefs and world views into it, and we don't really care what anyone else thinks?

I vote D . . .

 

[Etoile]

I was talking specifically about my background.

Whoops!

Personally I think you just like fire. Kidding! I momentarily forgot you were Jewish. We really need to do lunch or something.

Haha! Yep, Jew here. I love lunch!

 

[Homburg]

I can't even imagine! I'm practically ritual-obsessed. What about family traditions? You can make your own, you know. Hell, I know how you bdsm-ers love the pagans - most JudeoChristian celebrations have a pagan counterpart.

Oh, we do holidays, the usual suspect. There's no meaning to it though, and no feeling. No sense of something greater than onesself, or a feeling of connection. This is why I say there is no culture.

As Americans, by and large we are identified by our foibles.

Why don't I give you some more suggestions? I know how everyone loves when I tell people how to parent.

Oh, sure

----

We, as Americans, DO have a culture. It just doesn't feel like we do, because it's ordinary and every day. But if you were to go into another country, like Thailand for example, you'd realize that American's have their own culture. Sure it's a mish-mash of several different cultures, but who cares? It's our culture, and it's just fine.

Do what? I've lived abroad. Seven years total. Visiting other countries may make you think that we have a culture, but living in other countries makes it plain that we don't, at least for me.

You are confusing consumerism with culture. As a nation, we have virtually no culture. The closest thing would be national holidays, and even those are debatable. There is regional character, and some pockets of culture, by we are largely devoid of national culture.

Yes, I am cynical about this. I'm not pickin gon you, per se, graceanne.

----

* * * Complete aside: a professional anthropologist would have a field day with this thread * * *

So, what has anyone actually decided?

A) That it's okay to be openly weird?
B) It's not okay, but being weird in the closet (or to only your closest friends) is fine?
C) We're all/none of us/some of us just unique and valuable however we see and choose to categorize ourselves?
D) Or that we're all really just narcissists who can't see a juicy topic without managing to inject our own beliefs and world views into it, and we don't really care what anyone else thinks?

I vote D . . .

E, all of the above. No, wait, that's not on there. Okay, D, yeah, we're narcissists. Not that you really care what I think

 

[Homburg]

Whoops!

While I was talking about my background in that post, I am down on the idea of American culture in general. Probably a bit obvious from the post above, but I wanted to clarify.