Online and Real Life BDSM

[Kajira Callista]

Dude, if you were a sub I would SO put that in the sub thought of the day calender.

lol KC radio waves again grace? that was a wonderful post, Geoff.

 

[Esclava]

Hmmmmmmm .....

To you, EG - Well written opinion to an age-old scar which is constantly being reopened.

By the same token, Francisco - I missed this thread because it came out around the same time I stopped posting on these boards because of the overwhelming blanket of intolerance. And I stayed away for a significant time before even returning to lurk. My take has ALWAYS been tolerance - even when the only experience I had was OL. My experience level has changed in so many ways, but it has not changed the fact that I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion - no matter what foundation they have based it on. Even in your opinion of Jon Jacobs ... I accept your apology for the hurtful words in this public forum, but I respect your right to your opinion - even if it hurts my feelings. Because if I can't allow you the right to say what you feel - I cannot hope to be allowed the same from you or anyone else.

To those of you OL-> RL or vice versa - Some of you have known me since I first started posting here. I don't believe any of my views on this topic have changed - in fact, I've probably become more tolerant of the RL BDSMers who tried to tell me that my OL activities were pure fantasy. All I can say is that it was my OL "so-called fantasy" activities which led me into the RL (although not 24/7) relationship I enjoy now. NO, neither the RL nor the OL relationships I have meet ALL of my needs, but the two of them together meet MORE of my needs than either of them alone.

Be well and - tolerant,

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

One of the reasons I started this thread was that I was seeing a lot of hurt feelings, especially at that time from online BDSM’ers. It is an ever returning discussion; I am not here to say what is real or what is not. I think we should all try to happily coexist and try to interact, this does not mean that you can not disagree with an opinion or have an open discussion.

Important is honesty on the board and mutual politeness. We all have our hang-ups, for some it is Jon Jacobs for others it is TPE or even the incorrect usage of specific labels. In heated discussions sometimes things can be said which by others can be considered an insult or can create havoc with someone’s feelings. It is advisable in those situations not to look for confrontation or try to repay the other party with insult. This will only lead to flame wars, but we are all human of course.

Much more effective is to just say in a civilized way that you have been hurt or insulted and explain why, this in my experience leads to a much healthier conversation. However this is a discussion board and differences of opinions are to be expected, and should be applauded and hoped for. Discussions become extremely boring if we all just agree on everything, unless of course everyone agrees with me.

Often we hear that we need to have more tolerance to others that have a different opinion. Tolerance is to me a label which I have started to hate, tolerance does not mean mutual respect, and it means nothing more than tolerating others. I am much more in favor of acceptance, accept that others have different opinions, I would even say celebrate the fact that we have a variety of people on Literotica, celebrate that we have onliners and real lifers and pro domme’s and egotistical Dominants (not me of course).

Francisco.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

I think it's silly to even think I'd make such a thread! Francisco, all I am saying here (and Sluta, too, I believe) is that you are hurting other peoples' feelings...in a thread that is supposed to be about NOT hurting other peoples' feelings.

This post cracks me up. In fact, all the posts whining about Francisco's post crack me up. So WHAT if he hurts your poor widdle feelings. Is he here to coddle everyone's feelings? Does he have to take a mental poll of every single sensitive soul on LitBDSM before he makes a post, making sure that he doesn't say anything hurtful or unkind?

Fuck no.

See those little blue banners at the top of the page, people?

Free Speech.

If you don't like it, take your crying, whiny asses home.

Grow up, ferchrissakes.

~Anelize

 

[rosco rathbone]

.........

 

[Esclava]

<snip>Often we hear that we need to have more tolerance to others that have a different opinion. Tolerance is to me a label which I have started to hate, tolerance does not mean mutual respect, and it means nothing more than tolerating others. I am much more in favor of acceptance, accept that others have different opinions, I would even say celebrate the fact that we have a variety of people on Literotica, celebrate that we have onliners and real lifers and pro domme’s and egotistical Dominants (not me of course).

Francisco.

I understand what you are saying here about the label "tolerance", Francisco, but I would ask you to consider what that "label" means to those honest enough to truly practice it outright. From Merriam Webster Online, this is the definition of tolerance:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tolerance

2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something

I would say that to indulge someone's different or conflicting belief IS to accept that they believe what it is they believe in. I don't necessarily have to accept their belief - only that they believe it and it's important to them.

Asking questions to clarify something I don't understand about someone else's belief is necessary to arriving at a mutual understanding. IMO, questioning, just to trip someone up who is not being honest, is cowardly. Trust me, if you are dealing with someone who does not have a concrete understanding of their own belief ... they will trip themselves up - I've seen it happen ON THESE BOARDS - numerous times.

But those who do have a firm foundation on which they have established their belief will repeat it to you time and time again ... you will know EXACTLY where they stand because they don't deviate from their position. With that said, I personally, will continue to practice tolerance of other's opinions - even when I choose to tolerate them in silence.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

I understand what you are saying here about the label "tolerance", Francisco, but I would ask you to consider what that "label" means to those honest enough to truly practice it outright. From Merriam Webster Online, this is the definition of tolerance:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tolerance

2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something

I would say that to indulge someone's different or conflicting belief IS to accept that they believe what it is they believe in. I don't necessarily have to accept their belief - only that they believe it and it's important to them.

I don't agree. There are countless instances throughout history where a particular people or practice have been said to be tolerated, and yet at the same time have suffered the most inhumane oppression. Tolerance does not mean you accept anything, often it translates that you have no other choice but to allow it to continue, but can still be wishing to, thinking and/or plotting how to change that situation. IMHO if someone told me they sympathised with or wanted to indulge me because of xyz, I would see it as an insult and patronising, not to mention placing a slant on it which said 'you are inferior or not as good as me because you are xyz', not a geniune acceptance of my choices and rights. Acceptance on the other hand means that you accept the right of that person to their belief or lifestyle, and as such do not see them in a lesser light or necessary to oppress or discriminate against.

Catalina

 

[Evil_Geoff]

..... Acceptance on the other hand means that you accept the right of that person to their belief or lifestyle, and as such do not see them in a lesser light or necessary to oppress or discriminate against.

Catalina

But... but... if we accept them, who do we sadistic dominant domly types get to oppress and discriminate against? ? ? ? I NEED my scapegoats to blame everything on!

 

[alice_underneath]

Wowsers, quite a bit of ire and rancor seem to have bubbled up here.

So just what is "real" anyway?

There is physical reality, the feel of textures, skin on skin or hair, pleasure, pain, the smell of sweat and hot sex, the sound of our partners moans and cries, the taste of their sweat, their tears, their sex, or blood...

Then there is emotional reality, the feeling of fear, anticipation, the joy of pleasing, the love, devotion, trust, longing, desire. Hate, anger, calm, peace acceptance.

We have mental reality too. The planning for a scene, learning the needs, desires, preferences of our partner. Finding ways to fulfill their needs. Communication with one another, the sharing of ideas, thoughts, feelings.

So what makes a relationship "real"? Does it take fucking? Does it take a flogger or crop actually smacking an ass? Does it take kisses and caresses? Does it take a shared candle-light dinner for two? Does it take going to movies together? Showers? Does it take PYL/ordering pyl to do something then standing over them to make sure it's done? Is it sharing the intimacy of your body that makes your relationship "real"?

Or is it the way your heart beat speeds up when you think about your partner? Is it the way you look forward to the time you share together? Is it pouring out your dreams to him/her? Is it their sharing their fantasies with you? Is it knowing, in your heart, that they are meeting your needs and you are meeting theirs? Or is it sharing the intimacy of your soul that makes your relationship "real"?

Or maybe it's the length of time that you have been hanging around one another. So does it take a year to make a realtionship "real"? Does it take a week? A decade? A month?

There are arguments for any of these approaches, no doubt. And I am certain that for those who are rooted in the "it ain't real unless I can touch it, feel it, smell it, taste it, hear it" camp, understanding the "we share our hearts and souls, therefore our relationship is very real" group will always be a problem. Those in the "it takes a year" group will never understand the "it was love at first sight" folks...

There will ALWAYS be those who must have the physical in front of them to consider something to be real. And there will always be those for whom faith is quite enough to KNOW that what they believe is real. And then there will be those of us with plenty of faith, but you know what, we want a burning bush now and then too... *grin*

I'm a believer. I have plenty of faith. I've seen OL only relationships last for years. And for the parties involved, the D/s relationship is very very real. And I've seen real-time f-2-f/s-2-s relationships last a week.

Who am I, then, to question the relationship of others, either OL or RT? Is her submission to Him "real"? Is Her ownership of her "real"? Who am I to tell Him that He doesnt "really" command his slave's obedience and loyalty? And who are you to question that, either? Who appointed you as the arbiter of "real" vs. fantasy relationships? When were you elected Judge of "REAL" BDSM? *grins and shrugs* I imagine that happened about the same time _I_ was made Judge of All That Is Worthwhile, Holy and True....

It's just that as I get older and wiser I find that I have much less need to impose my rulings on reality on anyone other than myself and those who have submitted to my authority. The rest of y'all can take what I share and use what works for you and yours, and discard the rest. If no one jumps on my bandwagon (or caboose! *LOL*) it's still a good day.

As always, I remain,

"Evil", my ass, Mr. Geoff.

Where I live, most people work hard to cultivate a veneer of Respectability.

But what passes for decency often falls sooooo far short of the standard displayed in this post.

With respect for a genuinely Respectable man,

Alice

 

[SweetDommes]

I don't agree. There are countless instances throughout history where a particular people or practice have been said to be tolerated, and yet at the same time have suffered the most inhumane oppression. Tolerance does not mean you accept anything, often it translates that you have no other choice but to allow it to continue, but can still be wishing to, thinking and/or plotting how to change that situation. IMHO if someone told me they sympathised with or wanted to indulge me because of xyz, I would see it as an insult and patronising, not to mention placing a slant on it which said 'you are inferior or not as good as me because you are xyz', not a geniune acceptance of my choices and rights. Acceptance on the other hand means that you accept the right of that person to their belief or lifestyle, and as such do not see them in a lesser light or necessary to oppress or discriminate against.

Catalina

I believe the problem is that most people don't truly "tolerate" others - they claim it because they allow them to live rather than squashing them like the bugs they seem to think other people are. However, true tolerance IS, by definition (as shown above) not persecuting them, not harrassing them, and generally leaving them in peace and respecting their right to be different. The problem is not in the word, the problem is in how people use it ... and maybe it's time that we started pointing that out when people claim tolerance but don't show it (and yes, I do this already from time to time).

 

[catalina_francisco]

I believe the problem is that most people don't truly "tolerate" others - they claim it because they allow them to live rather than squashing them like the bugs they seem to think other people are. However, true tolerance IS, by definition (as shown above) not persecuting them, not harrassing them, and generally leaving them in peace and respecting their right to be different. The problem is not in the word, the problem is in how people use it ... and maybe it's time that we started pointing that out when people claim tolerance but don't show it (and yes, I do this already from time to time).

A word is just a word, call it tolerance, call it acceptance, call it respect, what counts is that we do accept differences and respect everyone right to individuality.

Francisco.

 

[stirbird]

This post cracks me up. In fact, all the posts whining about Francisco's post crack me up. So WHAT if he hurts your poor widdle feelings. Is he here to coddle everyone's feelings? Does he have to take a mental poll of every single sensitive soul on LitBDSM before he makes a post, making sure that he doesn't say anything hurtful or unkind?

Fuck no.

See those little blue banners at the top of the page, people?

Free Speech.

If you don't like it, take your crying, whiny asses home.

Grow up, ferchrissakes.

~Anelize

Hi there, poop-for-brains!

My point was that in a thread about being OPEN MINDED toward all forms of bdsm, he was making himself look like the biggest hypocrite in bdsm by slamming one particular person and that person's ideas, over and over again, snidely. It looked dumb as fuck, it was also quite cruel in ways your shit-soaked and totally dysfunctioning braincells can't even begin to imagine. Yep, dumb as fuck. Just the way you sound, ass-fart. (did i hurt your pwoor wittle weelings? )

This thread is about being tolerant of people, jumbo-dumbo. The point of being tolerant is so that you don't inadvertently hurt them with your brainfarts and they don't inadvertently hurt you with theirs. But if you want all-out flaming all the time, fatso, I'd be glad to show you what it feels like. Game? Get your stinking cunt over here then.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Hi there, poop-for-brains!

Starts bad and gets worse. While I try to accept diversity, this goes well outside the limits of what I consider acceptable.

Earlier in the discussion I was actually of a mind to support the "lay off Jon Jacobs personal attacks", not because I'm a fan of Jacobs, but because the nature of the discussion had become ugly and demeaning. But now, this puts you on the fast track towards popping one of my few remaining cherries - actually putting someone from Lit on ignore. That's something I've never felt a need to do before.

 

[graceanne]

Hi there, poop-for-brains!

My point was that in a thread about being OPEN MINDED toward all forms of bdsm, he was making himself look like the biggest hypocrite in bdsm by slamming one particular person and that person's ideas, over and over again, snidely. It looked dumb as fuck, it was also quite cruel in ways your shit-soaked and totally dysfunctioning braincells can't even begin to imagine. Yep, dumb as fuck. Just the way you sound, ass-fart. (did i hurt your pwoor wittle weelings? )

This thread is about being tolerant of people, jumbo-dumbo. The point of being tolerant is so that you don't inadvertently hurt them with your brainfarts and they don't inadvertently hurt you with theirs. But if you want all-out flaming all the time, fatso, I'd be glad to show you what it feels like. Game? Get your stinking cunt over here then.

I cannot believe that you are on people's asses about being tolerant. *shakes head*

Try practicing what you preach.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You know stirbird this is actually a really sad post by you. I am tempted to answer you in the way you apparently seem to think is normal. Well with a name as stirbird that is of course to be accepted.

However you are not worth of any extra attention.

Francisco.

 

[stirbird]

Starts bad and gets worse. While I try to accept diversity, this goes well outside the limits of what I consider acceptable.

Earlier in the discussion I was actually of a mind to support the "lay off Jon Jacobs personal attacks", not because I'm a fan of Jacobs, but because the nature of the discussion had become ugly and demeaning. But now, this puts you on the fast track towards popping one of my few remaining cherries - actually putting someone from Lit on ignore. That's something I've never felt a need to do before.

Fine. If you want to judge me from just one isolated message without even trying to find out or understand what motivates such a mesasge, be my guest. The fewer closeminded people and judgemental-without-basis people who read what I say, the better, probably.

I'm trying to point out something rather important to little miss anal-eyes, however: if you (meaning the general you) want to someday have people show concern for your own feelings when you are hurt the most and down and not laugh and giggle and make fun when the things that drive you insane with suffering and make you scream with pain late into the night come up, then you need to show them equal courtesy when they express suffering. Christians call this the golden rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In other religions, the concept is termed Karma. Someday, she may really need the support of people on this forum or elsewhere because something horrendous or tragic has happened in her life, but if all she does is mindlessly poke fun at other people's genuine misery, she's not going to get much sympathy when her time of need comes.

 

[stirbird]

You know stirbird this is actually a really sad post by you. I am tempted to answer you in the way you apparently seem to think is normal. Well with a name as stirbird that is of course to be accepted.

However you are not worth of any extra attention.

Francisco.

Shrug. Pretty much everything you post to me is equally pathetic or at very least vicious and petty to the core, so coming from you that is not such an awful thing...hater.

What I think is normal human behavior, normal care for other people's extreme pain, not stomping on an individual already prostrate on the ground in pain, is something that you, you ugly, vicious man, have demonstrated you have no comprehension of nor desire of practicing. So who cares what your skewed and dishonorable opinion is about anything?

 

[Quint]

I can't see why any of this is even an issue, to begin with. How someone else (in this forum) lives is of no consequence to me, at all; just as, how I live means nothing to anyone here.

Read and digest what you want and what fits for you and ignore the rest. It's really not that hard to do and it requires nothing... not even an acknowledgement of opinions that one finds are not acceptable in his or her life.

I stay out of threads that hold no interest for me... that's just how easy it is to do.

This is still the best post in this entire thread.

 

[A Desert Rose]

This is still the best post in this entire thread.

Thank you, Quint. That's very nice of you to acknowledge.

I don't understand why people take so seriously, opinions on a porn board. Like my friend Sexy Chele (who I miss a great deal on this board) used to say, and I paraphrase... kinda: "No one here will be at my next company picnic or family reunion. It really doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees with me."



And on a funny note: It's amazing what one misses here when one leaves her house for a few days and goes to work. LOL And now I'm off to get a haircut, manicure and waxing... ;-)

 

[bronntanas]

I can't see why any of this is even an issue, to begin with. How someone else (in this forum) lives is of no consequence to me, at all; just as, how I live means nothing to anyone here.

Read and digest what you want and what fits for you and ignore the rest. It's really not that hard to do and it requires nothing... not even an acknowledgement of opinions that one finds are not acceptable in his or her life.

I stay out of threads that hold no interest for me... that's just how easy it is to do.

Right.

I do quite often read threads pertaining to things I'm not personally interested in, in a food for thought sort of way. But in general, I have no use for some of topics so I don't read them. Thankfully, this also works for some of the more, um, lessee, I'm being polite here... This also works for those posters who's actions are unamusing or not particularly thought provoking to me.

 

[indianPilot]

Why is a relationship online considered not real life? For many people, online BDSM experiences are their only avenues. We are not all fortunate enough to have liberal outlets in our more socially uptight communities.

Another thing, it may even be beneficial to "try out" BDSM at a safe distance for some. There are those of us who weren't real sure just what BDSM was, and to even get a taste of it with an online experience, can certainly shed a little more light on the subject.

I think, in my opinion, real life has to be determined by the individual themselves. Experiences are just that, and whether they be experienced face to face or with oceans separating you, if you learn something from them, they are valuable.

indian - of indianPilot

 

[Blushing Bottom]

I agree with most of what is said here. All relationships have value. Distance is only a physical factor and the mind can easily transcend distance.

I have met several Doms online and one or two of them caused me to think about giving up my life here and running off. I could happen.

Why is a relationship online considered not real life? For many people, online BDSM experiences are their only avenues. We are not all fortunate enough to have liberal outlets in our more socially uptight communities.

Another thing, it may even be beneficial to "try out" BDSM at a safe distance for some. There are those of us who weren't real sure just what BDSM was, and to even get a taste of it with an online experience, can certainly shed a little more light on the subject.

I think, in my opinion, real life has to be determined by the individual themselves. Experiences are just that, and whether they be experienced face to face or with oceans separating you, if you learn something from them, they are valuable.

indian - of indianPilot

 

[Esclava]

Oh my ...

I got sidelined by a broken ankle and this thread just threatened to get completely out of control!

Seeing the animosity surrounding the posts from stirbird only make me want to remind you that two wrongs never make anything right. If someone says something that is hurtful, try looking at it from their perspective BEFORE you respond ... I guarantee it will temper what you say with tolerance.

If you can't see it from their perspective, walk away until you can. Doesn't mean you agree with what they say, it just means you have matured enough to allow someone else their opinion - even when it conflicts with yours.

What was that definition of tolerance again ... ???

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

I don't agree. There are countless instances throughout history where a particular people or practice have been said to be tolerated, and yet at the same time have suffered the most inhumane oppression. Tolerance does not mean you accept anything, often it translates that you have no other choice but to allow it to continue, but can still be wishing to, thinking and/or plotting how to change that situation. IMHO if someone told me they sympathised with or wanted to indulge me because of xyz, I would see it as an insult and patronising, not to mention placing a slant on it which said 'you are inferior or not as good as me because you are xyz', not a geniune acceptance of my choices and rights. Acceptance on the other hand means that you accept the right of that person to their belief or lifestyle, and as such do not see them in a lesser light or necessary to oppress or discriminate against.

Catalina

I never said history provided shining examples of tolerance. As an African American Woman, I can probably provide examples of intolerance - in this day and age - that rival stories any member of this board could tell as well.

What you speak of IS patronizing and I do not deliberately patronize anyone. If I have an issue with someone about something important to me, I will tell them so. If we agree to disagree about whatever it is, then we have reached a point of tolerance for that issue. I have told another on this board, "You have made a valid point. I cannot argue with it nor can I agree with it, but I can accept that it is what you believe. Let's move one, please." Living by that mindset makes me a target - which I gladly wear as I said before ... even if worn in silence.

The unimportant stuff ... it's like water off a duck's back ...

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

I got sidelined by a broken ankle and this thread just threatened to get completely out of control!

Seeing the animosity surrounding the posts from stirbird only make me want to remind you that two wrongs never make anything right. If someone says something that is hurtful, try looking at it from their perspective BEFORE you respond ... I guarantee it will temper what you say with tolerance.

If you can't see it from their perspective, walk away until you can. Doesn't mean you agree with what they say, it just means you have matured enough to allow someone else their opinion - even when it conflicts with yours.

What was that definition of tolerance again ... ???

Esclava

OK I think we have to put this in the right perspective , I have made one remark about Jon Jacobs which can be considered to be disrespectful, the rest of my remarks were all against his ideas and beliefs.

I am starting to get rather tired of beng told what a bastard I am for making that single remark, for which I have apologized. I know that Jon Jacobs supporters tend to be quite fanatical about him but this is starting to be ridiculous.

I have been called:

• a big hypocrite
• hateful intolerant
• callous
• dumb ass fuck
• quite cruel
• vicious
• petty to the core
• hater
• ugly

What did someone say about me, hypocrite? At least I did not sink to the level of language used against me for expressing an opinion?

Francisco.