Patting the backs and tooting each others horns

[annaswirls]

Wow! Interesting.....hmm.....doesn't that give you the oddest feeling, finding your stuff out there? It almost feels like your poetry is cheating on you or something, or has been kidnapped.

First of all, congratulations! Your poem is in there among the wildly famous second of all, I am really sorry it was done without permission.

On Sunday I saw Emily Dickenson on the bathroom wall at Ruta Maya. Oh and Jesus was quoted too, but no credit was given to either. But that is different.

My read on this. She does not see you as someone different than the other poets....as unreachable. She is posting some of her favorites to share BUT should have at least asked for permission. I bet if you are upset about this and would ask, she would remove the poem and be mortified that she offended anyone. Just a guess, she seems like a nice enough person (okay I am biased towards teachers with autistic kids in her class who seems to really like them heheh)

My general rule of thumb when I find something out there that was originally published on Mannequin Envy (and yes, it happens often, and sometimes they have a link and for some of them I get LOTS of hits and am glad because it brings people to the zine so they can check out other people's stuff as well)

What I do:

1. Post a comment if it is a blog, or send an email directly to the publisher of said zine stating that I think they have great taste or something along those lines

2. Post a link to the original work and stating that I bet the author/artist would love a notice that their work was selected to appear in the blog, etc.

3. Request that while it is nice to have your work selected from the sea of internet poetry/art... that in the future, notice is given before the post is made, that people like to know where their work is popping up and appreciate being asked permission. And request that a link be made to the original site (this can be done with even the most dead famous poets, even on bathroom walls, it is nice to write "by Emily Dickenson" so at least people can walk away perhaps learning something new.


I will do all three for your poem as soon as I get the kiddos on the bus. My alarm went off while writing this post, gotta make haste

As far as "fair use" I think the general rule is "no harm, no foul" As I said before, I am almost certain that if you feel there is a foul and you ask her to remove the poem, she would. We had this discussion a while back and my personal opinion on it is that whenever possible, permission should be at least attempted, and whenever possible, a link to the original work should be published. Another lit. guy stated that you should only put up a small portion of the work and then link it to the original. There is not a fine line between what is right and what is legal -- it is a big fuzzy line and both sides are grey as well.

I really am sorry if this appearance of your work made you feel icky, and I hope that there is some pride that it was selected from all of the poems possible out there! I am glad that she put Your name on the poem and not her own. I have found some of my photos out there just out there... no name, no link. It is a weird feeling.

Thank you SO MUCH for letting us know, and I will take care of it, although all we get at Mannequin Envy is first publishing rights, and do not really have any say over what happens to your work after a new issue comes out. I will definately go back and leave a comment on her taste and put in a request that she contact you.

Oh goodness I should read this post 3 times to make sure I did not say anything stupid, but I will let the pieces fall where they may and get those kiddos up for school quick!

All the best,

J

Hey everybody. It’s really been pleasant browsing, clicking through these posts and sharing the triumphs, enjoying the elevated public recognition of – let me call you my friends, ¿si?

I’m hoping someone here can help me figure something out. I somewhat accidentally stumbled upon a blog recently which during the month of April this year, attempted to post a poem every day. As a result of what I found there, I am having some confusing and mixed feelings. Here are the authors whose poems she posted:

Shel Silverstein, Louise Glück, Langston Hughes, Sharon Olds, Mark Strand, Eloise Greenfield, Pablo Neruda, Sonia Sanchez, Chief Dan George, Maya Angelou, Robert Creeley, Naomi Shihab Nye, Tom McDaniel, Denise Duhamel, Dylan Thomas, Cynthia Rylant, W.S. Merwin, Nikki Giovanni, Octavio Paz, Anne Sexton, Kenneth Patchen, Lucille Clifton, Matsuo Basho [Translated by Robert Hass], and Mina Loy [as an original manuscript photo].

The only one of the poets listed here who is not famous in poetry circles is me, and my poem was the only one accompanied by a copyright notice.

I know the other poems are copyrighted too, but when poems are taken from books of poetry, I’m not quite sure what satisfies the “fair use” doctrine. Of course, it’s not like the blog is a money-making site or anything; and most poets are generally happy to have their work shuffled around under other peoples’ noses, myself included. On the other hand, a nice letter, a cup of coffee, or a dinner date with the lady might have been nice!

How should I feel, annaswirls? (She nipped it from your e-zine.) I feel slightly offended, and want to write a thank-you letter at the same time!

Dibs on the crazy-chair! *sigh*

 

[annaswirls]

I just have to share, not because it is the most prestigious journal on the internet, because it isn't on any top ten lists, but because I am actually proud of the poems she published. Six of them.....all born here at lit

Laura Hird

I used to like my poems when I wrote them but a month later hated them! Now I generally dislike most when I write them and well, maybe will like them a few months later, like these.

 

[vampiredust]

I just have to share, not because it is the most prestigious journal on the internet, because it isn't on any top ten lists, but because I am actually proud of the poems she published. Six of them.....all born here at lit

Laura Hird

I used to like my poems when I wrote them but a month later hated them! Now I generally dislike most when I write them and well, maybe will like them a few months later, like these.

That's great, Anna. Some fine poetry there.

 

[ghost_girl]

I just have to share, not because it is the most prestigious journal on the internet, because it isn't on any top ten lists, but because I am actually proud of the poems she published. Six of them.....all born here at lit

Laura Hird

I used to like my poems when I wrote them but a month later hated them! Now I generally dislike most when I write them and well, maybe will like them a few months later, like these.

Anna! Congrats!

by the way, I am proud of ALL your poems, and your tenacity.



j

 

[champagne1982]

That is delicious poetry ms swirlyness. Congrats for being chosen as a featured poet and I love the choices you made for inclusion. I see your lit beauties as they florish on that page and I'm sure they love the attention.

 

[Tzara]

I just have to share, not because it is the most prestigious journal on the internet, because it isn't on any top ten lists, but because I am actually proud of the poems she published. Six of them.....all born here at lit

Laura Hird

I used to like my poems when I wrote them but a month later hated them! Now I generally dislike most when I write them and well, maybe will like them a few months later, like these.

Those are great poems, Ms. A. I remember all of them.

Prestige, schmestige. It's getting your work in front of people. Exposing yerself.

 

[annaswirls]

Wow wow thank you vd, g_g, champ and Tz! Your kindness means a lot to me! Y'all helped me with those poems, and I appreciate it I like Laura Hird's zine. I hope I did not sound like I was dissing it at all...eek!

okay.....now lets go write something I have to think of something sexy. hmm. Exposing oneself....

 

[foehn2]

takin' care of business

What I do:

1. Post a comment if it is a blog, or send an email directly to the publisher of said zine stating that I think they have great taste or something along those lines

2. Post a link to the original work and stating that I bet the author/artist would love a notice that their work was selected to appear in the blog, etc.

3. Request that while it is nice to have your work selected from the sea of internet poetry/art... that in the future, notice is given before the post is made, that people like to know where their work is popping up and appreciate being asked permission. And request that a link be made to the original site (this can be done with even the most dead famous poets, even on bathroom walls, it is nice to write "by Emily Dickenson" so at least people can walk away perhaps learning something new.

Thanks for clarifying my thoughts. I sent you a message but I don't think you've seen it, so I'm giving an update here. I wrote to the blog author suggesting that she link to Mannequin. I think I was nice enough:

Hi!

I stumbled on your blog, and it is one of the most artfully-done web logs I have seen. Very nice! I also learned a bit about you, and admire your professional activities and cultural interests.

I was doing some research on various places where I have published my poetry, but have forgotten -- and stumbled across your April poetry postings, and my own poem, "You Came to My Bed." I was extremely flattered and pleased that you chose my poem to be alongside poems by such famous and well-known poets! I had to chuckle to myself; I'm the only one who isn't!

At the same time, I was a little surprised to find it posted by someone I did not know and have never heard from. I do thank you for including the copyright notice.

Probably not many will be going back to read April's entries from your archives, but it occurs to me that the editor of Mannequin Envy Quarterly, Jennifer VanBuren, would probably appreciate a credit for publication below my poem, with a link, in small print, if it wouldn't be too much trouble to go back and append that. The link is http://www.mannequinenvy.com/ . Maybe a nice format would be [size=-2]"from Mannequin Envy Quarterly."[/size] I'm sure Ms. VanBuren would appreciate hearing from you.

If you care to see more of my on-line work, I put most of it at a site called Literotica, formerly under the pen name "foehn" and now under "foehn2."

Thanks again for including my work among real gems of poetry, and for nice things to look at and read.



Sincerely,

That should get the main points across in a nice way.

 

[annaswirls]

Perfect!!! You are a true gentleman!

Thanks for clarifying my thoughts. I sent you a message but I don't think you've seen it, so I'm giving an update here. I wrote to the blog author suggesting that she link to Mannequin. I think I was nice enough:



That should get the main points across in a nice way.

 

[TheRainMan]

I just have to share, not because it is the most prestigious journal on the internet, because it isn't on any top ten lists, but because I am actually proud of the poems she published. Six of them.....all born here at lit

Laura Hird

I used to like my poems when I wrote them but a month later hated them! Now I generally dislike most when I write them and well, maybe will like them a few months later, like these.

what a great group of poems, swirly.

your stuff has so much punch to it -- it's great to see it out there, aimed straight at everyone's nose.

 

[ghost_girl]

I just have to share, not because it is the most prestigious journal on the internet, because it isn't on any top ten lists, but because I am actually proud of the poems she published. Six of them.....all born here at lit

Laura Hird

I used to like my poems when I wrote them but a month later hated them! Now I generally dislike most when I write them and well, maybe will like them a few months later, like these.

Damn, anna, I just noticed this part.

I just have to say this, I really don't think that anyone who has been nominated for a Pushcart has to worry about where her stuff appears. wow, are you okay? ( poking you in the ribs)



julie

 

[ghost_girl]

and that reminds me--

when Anna and ange and others listed people who had stuff in "high places", no one mentioned that we have at least 3 Pushcart nominees here at Literotica that i know of

RainMan, Annaswirls, and Denis Hale. We are truly among great company!!

 

[TheRainMan]

i’ve an idea. before tooting the horn here from now on, i’m going to show the lashes.

i’m going to list rejections, kind of put it into a real-world perspective. they used to feel like slaps across the face. now, they feel like what they are, a “no thanks, pal” to the poems i submitted, the cost of doing business.

the past couple of months or so i’ve had rejections from:

Stirring – an impersonal, form letter.

Jubilat (Boston College) – a form letter, as terse as it gets.

Poetry Magazine – a rejection cut from a page they Xeroxed, not even cut rectangular, along the dotted lines. being that it’s Poetry, i imagine the Lord himself wielded the scissors, though he should be able to cut straight lines, no?

The Colorado Review (Colorado State U.) – form letter, with Jorie Graham’s and Donald Revell’s stamps on it, held and brought down like a gavel by an MFA candidate, no doubt.

West Branch (Bucknell University) – a handwritten rejection. translation: close, but no cigar. and damn, West Branch is one beautiful journal. i’d have almost rather had a form letter, not knowing i was close. i’d like to be accepted there.

Paris Review – a cut-out so small it nearly got lost in the envelope.

Copper Nickel (University of Colorado – Denver) – a form letter by e-mail.

Chicago Review – a handwritten, “Thanks, Pat. These are not quite a fit for us.” felt like a “Dear John” letter, but i’ve found any ink is good ink, and bodes well for the future.

Rattle – didn’t win, place or show in their annual contest. but I’ve already been in Rattle, which is my favorite journal of all. and Tim Green is the best editor around. he even makes his form letters feel personal, somehow. don’t mind a rejection in the least. the contest had over 4000 poems in it, and the quality of poetry they publish is top-shelf.

The New Yorker – yawn. what a fuckin’ surprise.


i understand why they send out form letters. as much as I dislike it, i am forced now to do it from Mannequin Envy. there are just too many submissions to personally write to each poet. i do try to write personally to the ones whose work i nearly took, but the time consumed is large, and i wonder if it’s fruitful at all. i like to think it is, as i know how it makes me feel to read letters personally written instead of snipped and sealed in.

i’ll list acceptances next time around.

 

[ghost_girl]

hello, RainMan

are you saying ALL those people rejected your work?


sheesh... what a bunch of "dummies"....

 

[TheRainMan]

hello, RainMan

are you saying ALL those people rejected your work?


sheesh... what a bunch of "dummies"....

no, ghostie, they're not dummies.

i used to sorta think that too, at first. until i read the poetry they do accept. then, i realized how much work there was to do. the competition for a few acceptances in some journals is fierce. the acceptance rates are 2%, and below, in many cases.

i've gotten to the point where every rejection makes me more determined to improve. they actually help, add incentive.

to me, it's just plain silly to get upset about it. that's downright unproductive.

and you -- you should keep submitting to Pedestal. i saw that you were upset at the number of times they said "no." --

you belong there. prove it to them.

 

[ghost_girl]

I feel the same way about rejections, they make me try harder. But when a place rejects 7 or 8 of my works, and they were submitted 3 separate times, well, I just do not have the time nor inclination to keep trying. There are places where I don't belong and have found that is true in most things, not just submitting work and getting worked up doesn't help.

YOU have such a good manner about you, you teach me and speak to me without talking down to me, and that is so rare. I love you for it.

You are just so good, I find it just plain bizarre they would not take your stuff, that's all. and hey, I don't lose sleep over non acceptances, but I do go back to the pieces in question and see where I can improve them.

I had someone suggest that the ones I did get out there, was sheer luck... lol. I reckon I was lucky, then, but you helped me believe in myself, which I never did before.

That is why I keep coming back to this place, even though the faces have changed and it isn't like it used to be. I'm not a big flirt, cant write form poetry, I am not bi, not a yeti, a witch or a monkey and I am just barely tolerated here and that is even iffy, but I don't care because my poetry soul was reborn here. in a porn site. hehe

thank you for being you, dear friend, and never wavering from your true inner self.

 

[Tzara]

i’ve an idea. before tooting the horn here from now on, i’m going to show the lashes.

i’m going to list rejections, kind of put it into a real-world perspective. they used to feel like slaps across the face. now, they feel like what they are, a “no thanks, pal” to the poems i submitted, the cost of doing business.

the past couple of months or so i’ve had rejections from:

Stirring – an impersonal, form letter.

Jubilat (Boston College) – a form letter, as terse as it gets.

Poetry Magazine – a rejection cut from a page they Xeroxed, not even cut rectangular, along the dotted lines. being that it’s Poetry, i imagine the Lord himself wielded the scissors, though he should be able to cut straight lines, no?

The Colorado Review (Colorado State U.) – form letter, with Jorie Graham’s and Donald Revell’s stamps on it, held and brought down like a gavel by an MFA candidate, no doubt.

West Branch (Bucknell University) – a handwritten rejection. translation: close, but no cigar. and damn, West Branch is one beautiful journal. i’d have almost rather had a form letter, not knowing i was close. i’d like to be accepted there.

Paris Review – a cut-out so small it nearly got lost in the envelope.

Copper Nickel (University of Colorado – Denver) – a form letter by e-mail.

Chicago Review – a handwritten, “Thanks, Pat. These are not quite a fit for us.” felt like a “Dear John” letter, but i’ve found any ink is good ink, and bodes well for the future.

Rattle – didn’t win, place or show in their annual contest. but I’ve already been in Rattle, which is my favorite journal of all. and Tim Green is the best editor around. he even makes his form letters feel personal, somehow. don’t mind a rejection in the least. the contest had over 4000 poems in it, and the quality of poetry they publish is top-shelf.

The New Yorker – yawn. what a fuckin’ surprise.


i understand why they send out form letters. as much as I dislike it, i am forced now to do it from Mannequin Envy. there are just too many submissions to personally write to each poet. i do try to write personally to the ones whose work i nearly took, but the time consumed is large, and i wonder if it’s fruitful at all. i like to think it is, as i know how it makes me feel to read letters personally written instead of snipped and sealed in.

i’ll list acceptances next time around.

I love this post, TRMmie. One of the great things about this place was the encouragement I received that helped me to feel confident enough to submit things to some online 'zines. That went well.

Equally important is to realize/recognize that the whole publication thing is like really tough and even good authors (he says suckupishingly, Like you) aren't always accepted. It's one thing for me to read cranky Franz Wright compaining about it. Don't know him, other than his Da knew what he was doing and the both of them have a Pulitzer. That doesn't mean anything to me. You getting smacked means something to me. I commiserate, and identify.

So thanks.

Good luck, by the way. You got the crazy skillz. It is just patience and time.

 

[TheRainMan]

I feel the same way about rejections, they make me try harder. But when a place rejects 7 or 8 of my works, and they were submitted 3 separate times, well, I just do not have the time nor inclination to keep trying. There are places where I don't belong and have found that is true in most things, not just submitting work and getting worked up doesn't help.

YOU have such a good manner about you, you teach me and speak to me without talking down to me, and that is so rare. I love you for it.

You are just so good, I find it just plain bizarre they would not take your stuff, that's all. and hey, I don't lose sleep over non acceptances, but I do go back to the pieces in question and see where I can improve them.

I had someone suggest that the ones I did get out there, was sheer luck... lol. I reckon I was lucky, then, but you helped me believe in myself, which I never did before.

That is why I keep coming back to this place, even though the faces have changed and it isn't like it used to be. I'm not a big flirt, cant write form poetry, I am not bi, not a yeti, a witch or a monkey and I am just barely tolerated here and that is even iffy, but I don't care because my poetry soul was reborn here. in a porn site. hehe

thank you for being you, dear friend, and never wavering from your true inner self.

you're very sweet, j.

nothing's like it used to be. sometimes it's worse, sometimes it's better. but never the same.

change comes, like a little wind that ruffles the curtains at dawn. -- John Steinbeck

keep writing, ghost.

 

[TheRainMan]

I love this post, TRMmie. One of the great things about this place was the encouragement I received that helped me to feel confident enough to submit things to some online 'zines. That went well.

it has gone well.

i've noticed.

Equally important is to realize/recognize that the whole publication thing is like really tough and even good authors (he says suckupishingly, Like you) aren't always accepted. It's one thing for me to read cranky Franz Wright compaining about it. Don't know him, other than his Da knew what he was doing and the both of them have a Pulitzer. That doesn't mean anything to me. You getting smacked means something to me. I commiserate, and identify.

So thanks.

Good luck, by the way. You got the crazy skillz. It is just patience and time.

yes, it IS really tough. it's work.

like any work, there's no sense doing it if you don't enjoy it. the day i don't enjoy the work i do, i'll stop. and drive a cab.

my patience can be measured in tons. time? well, who knows that one?

thanks, Seattle.

 

[wildsweetone]

it has gone well.

i've noticed.





yes, it IS really tough. it's work.

like any work, there's no sense doing it if you don't enjoy it. the day i don't enjoy the work i do, i'll stop. and drive a cab.

my patience can be measured in tons. time? well, who knows that one?

thanks, Seattle.

i've often thought driving a cab would be frustrating as anything. every single person that gets in would need a story or poem written about them or their lives.

tell me again, what was that Kiwi Magazine you're coming up in, which issue? i want to grab a copy and leave it open at the appropriate page by my computer to keep me in line with my goal.

 

[ghost_girl]

you're very sweet, j.

nothing's like it used to be. sometimes it's worse, sometimes it's better. but never the same.

change comes, like a little wind that ruffles the curtains at dawn. -- John Steinbeck

keep writing, ghost.

oh, I will keep writing! Would probably die if I stopped. I just meant I wouldn't send Pedestal anything else. Right now, I have about 20 poems "pending" and should hear something within the next 2 weeks to 4 months, lol

hugs

 

[twelveoone]

i’ve an idea. before tooting the horn here from now on, i’m going to show the lashes.

i’m going to list rejections, kind of put it into a real-world perspective. they used to feel like slaps across the face. now, they feel like what they are, a “no thanks, pal” to the poems i submitted, the cost of doing business.

the past couple of months or so i’ve had rejections from:

Stirring – an impersonal, form letter.

Jubilat (Boston College) – a form letter, as terse as it gets.

Poetry Magazine – a rejection cut from a page they Xeroxed, not even cut rectangular, along the dotted lines. being that it’s Poetry, i imagine the Lord himself wielded the scissors, though he should be able to cut straight lines, no?

The Colorado Review (Colorado State U.) – form letter, with Jorie Graham’s and Donald Revell’s stamps on it, held and brought down like a gavel by an MFA candidate, no doubt.

West Branch (Bucknell University) – a handwritten rejection. translation: close, but no cigar. and damn, West Branch is one beautiful journal. i’d have almost rather had a form letter, not knowing i was close. i’d like to be accepted there.

Paris Review – a cut-out so small it nearly got lost in the envelope.

Copper Nickel (University of Colorado – Denver) – a form letter by e-mail.

Chicago Review – a handwritten, “Thanks, Pat. These are not quite a fit for us.” felt like a “Dear John” letter, but i’ve found any ink is good ink, and bodes well for the future.

Rattle – didn’t win, place or show in their annual contest. but I’ve already been in Rattle, which is my favorite journal of all. and Tim Green is the best editor around. he even makes his form letters feel personal, somehow. don’t mind a rejection in the least. the contest had over 4000 poems in it, and the quality of poetry they publish is top-shelf.

The New Yorker – yawn. what a fuckin’ surprise.


i understand why they send out form letters. as much as I dislike it, i am forced now to do it from Mannequin Envy. there are just too many submissions to personally write to each poet. i do try to write personally to the ones whose work i nearly took, but the time consumed is large, and i wonder if it’s fruitful at all. i like to think it is, as i know how it makes me feel to read letters personally written instead of snipped and sealed in.

i’ll list acceptances next time around.

You are a good man, Pat.

Now that you're doing form letters, maybe I'll submit, I do love forms.

 

[foehn2]

LOL. that's rich, 12 o one.

a minute past midnite, even.

who's editing Poetry Magazine these days, anyway? I got a personal hand-written letter of rejection from them once, when Nims was guest editor. Lost it in the divorce.

kind of surprising, given the quality of your poetry. those were rejections you were talking about? oh my. idiots! sigh. total idiots, 12.

hard fact of life is, they don't use "acceptance" slips. do they feel like gods, when they accept something? probably depends on how much coffee they've had.

etcetera.

 

[foehn2]

oh crap, i forgot why i came here. i was severely distracted by 12-0-1, sorry. "view from above" posted a link to 'mannequin envy' under my poem she scarfed. was very polite and prompt. there ya go, jennifer. smile.

 

[TheRainMan]

You are a good man, Pat.

Now that you're doing form letters, maybe I'll submit, I do love forms.

lol.

send in a sonnet that's fresh, and i'll take it.

. . .
who's editing Poetry Magazine these days, anyway? I got a personal hand-written letter of rejection from them once, when Nims was guest editor. . .

the new editor is Christian Wiman

. . . do they feel like gods, when they accept something? probably depends on how much coffee they've had . . .

and whether or not they got laid last night.