Pink Orchid: Story Event for Women-Centric Erotica - Official Support Thread

[Omenainen]

Jesus, do I really want to go searching for what about “female empowerment” confused people?

That depends entirely on your masochistic tendencies.

 

[NotWise]

Jesus, do I really want to go searching for what about “female empowerment” confused people?

Umm, what do you think it means?

 

[SimonDoom]

Jesus, do I really want to go searching for what about “female empowerment” confused people?

I think if you are a genuinely curious person, you would.

Is a story about an intelligent, strong woman who wants to explore the role of being a submissive in a BDSM relationship a story about female empowerment? I think you could get a lot of different and intelligent opinions about that. I think you could get a lot of different opinions about whether a particular story described empowerment in that context in a convincing way.

There are two quite different attitudes. Neither is obviously right; both are interesting. Both are worth discussing.

One is that a woman seeking "empowerment" should seek certain sorts of things.

The other is that a woman seeking "empowerment" should seek whatever she wants, and the "empowerment" involves how she goes about getting it, whatever it is, in the face of possible pressure and disapproval.

I think it's complex, because human motivation is complex, and we don't always know why we want to do the things we want to do.

 

[NotWise]

Is a story about an intelligent, strong woman who wants to explore the role of being a submissive in a BDSM relationship a story about female empowerment? I think you could get a lot of different and intelligent opinions about that. I think you could get a lot of different opinions about whether a particular story described empowerment in that context in a convincing way

Could be, but I think you make a mistake by thinking first of what it means to sex. You should think first of what it means to her character.

 

[NotWise]

I didn't have anything controversial in my story to fight over, but I did have one comment that bugs me for some reason.

Interesting story. The one thing lacking is a sense of why he kept going back to her. The sex was good but there should have been something else to attract him.

I thought Adam pretty clearly liked Hope, found her interesting, and enjoyed her company. Maybe that wasn't enough.

 

[Omenainen]

Is a story about an intelligent, strong woman who wants to explore the role of being a submissive in a BDSM relationship a story about female empowerment? I think you could get a lot of different and intelligent opinions about that. I think you could get a lot of different opinions about whether a particular story described empowerment in that context in a convincing way.

From that premise one could write a story about female empowerment and story that is not about female empowerment. The content matter does not define it like that. (Btw, why “strong and intelligent”? Because weak, simple women don’t get to be empowered?)

My point in this event was that from that premise you could write a story about woman exploring her submissive side, or you could write a story about a man whose woman explores her submissive side and he is excited and ready to stick his dick in that. And just to be clear, this does not depend on POV character. So, I asked for stories about the women, where the women made sense on their own, and not just as a projection of male fantasies.

I didn't have anything controversial in my story to fight over, but I did have one comment that bugs me for some reason.



I thought Adam pretty clearly liked Hope, found her interesting, and enjoyed her company. Maybe that wasn't enough.

I think that comment goes to prove you did right what I described above. Some men get really uncomfortable when stories are not about them or catering for them. Your story, despite being from the man’s POV was about the woman, and that makes the male character less important, and that makes your readers very uncomfortable. At least that one. So, I say, well done! You for one understood what I was asking for. That gives me consolation that I wasn’t as hard to understand as one would think from all this confusion that followed.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Is a story about an intelligent, strong woman who wants to explore the role of being a submissive in a BDSM relationship a story about female empowerment? I think you could get a lot of different and intelligent opinions about that.
...

I think it's complex, because human motivation is complex, and we don't always know why we want to do the things we want to do.

The complexity of human behavior is something I've noticed IRL and why I tried to write my series.

In Chapter 8, I write about a couple exploring a sex club, where one of the women appears as a shy submissive, doing anything she's told. An insecure man joining the club blatantly asks about her being abused. Breaking from her submissive role, she explains she has too many daily pressures in her job making decisions and giving orders, and once or twice per month she just likes to relax for a few hours and be told what to do. (O should read that chapter to find a wife saying of her insecure husband "He's what I NEED." They're swingers to fulfill her other wilder sexual "wants".)

Another peripheral couple in that swinger series is explained as a BDSM relationship where the wife is ordered to do embarrassing things, but it's explained that she gets off on the "spontaneous surprises" her husband orders her to do. And if he isn't inventive enough, she'll later discipline HIM.

I've met and have as friends such people with wildly diverse selections of desires, some even proudly displaying their scars to prove it..

 

[Omenainen]

In Chapter 8, I write…

(O should read that chapter to find a wife saying of her insecure husband "He's what I NEED." They're swingers to fulfill her other wilder sexual "wants".)

Yeah… you keep recommending your stories like I’d never heard of these things before and was doubting the existence of dominance based relationships or swingers. That is not the case. It is not about kinks or the content as such.

 

[NotWise]

I think that comment goes to prove you did right what I described above. Some men get really uncomfortable when stories are not about them or catering for them. Your story, despite being from the man’s POV was about the woman, and that makes the male character less important, and that makes your readers very uncomfortable. At least that one. So, I say, well done! You for one understood what I was asking for. That gives me consolation that I wasn’t as hard to understand as one would think from all this confusion that followed.

To be fair to Anonymous, they could be male or female.

It took me a month of wondering how I could have explained Adam and Hope's relationship more clearly. Then I posted my comment above, and that lead to a "duh" moment. There probably wouldn't have been a question about why Adam kept going back to Hope if she were pretty and fashionable. Hope didn't shape her appearance to please guys, and that really does make the man less important.

I think the fundamental problem with "female empowerment" is that it's a polarizing term. There's a perception that women can't be empowered without men losing power. "Women-centric" is the most important part of your challenge. The ideas of female characters having agency and making rational decisions in their own interest are enough to put flesh on the bones.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Is a story about an intelligent, strong woman who wants to explore the role of being a submissive in a BDSM relationship a story about female empowerment?

FWIW, that's part of what I was trying to do in "Anjali's Red Scarf", though I don't know whether readers took it that way.

 

[NotWise]

There’s also very much a difference between a story where the protagonist is a strong, empowered woman, and a story about being a strong, empowered woman.

I think several of us struggled with that. It's one thing to have an "empowered" female character, and something else to write a story with that as its theme. I don't know if I succeeded, but I tried.

 

[stickygirl]

I have no problem believing that. At least in the US, we are told that no matter how strong a woman is, she’s still basically submissive to men sexually. Unless she’s a Domme, and then she’s fetishized.
Also, it’s Literotica, and you gotta get to the wanking part, and the more time you spend on building a good character, the more risk you have of losing your audience.
So there’s a fair amount of baggage going into it.

Seriously? You should stop listening to people saying that!

Maybe it's the terms strong and empowered that are the problem, but they're a shorthand for a woman who has her own agency, understands what she wants from life and appreciates the difficulties that may present themselves in achieving that.
Don't assume I'm putting words into your mouth or Notwise but it seems like too many posters thought empowered meant something... I dunno, like a weird super-being. Buffy is good but how about Katniss in Hunger Games whose strength was her vulnerable humanity, or Carol in the film of the same name. They aren't perfect people and that's partly their appeal, but they want to have a say in their lives even if that's not always possible. Women don't have to have achieved every goal in their life, but they have to recognise they're allowed to have them and that their goals are important to them.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is the first time I clicked on this thread, and because of a conversation I had yesterday with another AH member who told me about it.
When I first saw the event I thought two things, great concept and a cause I believe in.
Second thought was the event is going to be ruined by a bunch of men who are going to floundering in talking abut female empowerment and how much they believe in it etc...and then devolve into the same clueless men mansplaining to all the women what empowerment is or isn't.

It seems when I predict something negative I'm a damn prophet, or as I always refer to myself a student of base human nature or simply put, humanity(like that word even applies these days) will always in the end default to selfishness, bad behavior, and refusing to ever admit they're wrong or don't understand something, men very heavily fall under the last two.

People here no, and are probably sick of, me calling out misogyny, the sites BS rape rule, taking shots at the incels in loving wives and my hatred of "real men" and that women's rights are the hill I'll die on. I've spent years volunteering at a shelter for battered women, I teach self defense courses there and help out in other ways, I've been in women's rights marches, etc.

But notice I didn't partake in this, and there's two reasons. One, I knew the farce the men here would turn it into.
But more importantly, for all my passion for the topic, and desire to see empowerment and equality for women...I am NOT a woman. I don't know how it feels to be one, to deal with what they deal with, to have to experience the shit they've been through and in the case of rape and abuse be hurt, but have it turned on them that it was their fault. I have empathy and compassion, but I still cannot speak to how women think feel react etc Maybe an easier way of saying it is there's times to no your place or boundary.

But I'm unique in that way, my male ego isn't so fragile that I can't admit not understanding something, and then trying to force my moronic opinion on someone anyway.

There is someone in this contest that is the last person who should ever be writing women empowerment stories, they know who they are and that I'm talking about them. Yet they come here for fake points with the female writers "I'm talking to a woman, maybe they'll think I'm a feminist and I can start talking dirty to them" yeah, that's all it is for some here. I may not know what its like to be a woman, but I know men, especially one type I hate, smell them a mile away and it reeks in here.

For the rest it was a legit exercise and that's commendable, but that's the minority. Others have just shown their true face by needing, as I said before, to tell all the little womens here all about what's empowering.

Nothing like good intentions ruined by phonies. Can't wait for the same people writing in this event to go back to their latest Burn the bitch stories and rape fantasies.

 

[NotWise]

This is the first time I clicked on this thread, and because of a conversation I had yesterday with another AH member who told me about it.
When I first saw the event I thought two things, great concept and a cause I believe in.
Second thought was the event is going to be ruined by a bunch of men who are going to floundering in talking abut female empowerment and how much they believe in it etc...and then devolve into the same clueless men mansplaining to all the women what empowerment is or isn't.

The event wasn't ruined. You can sit down now.

 

[Omenainen]

This is the first time I clicked on this thread, and because of a conversation I had yesterday with another AH member who told me about it.
When I first saw the event I thought two things, great concept and a cause I believe in.
Second thought was the event is going to be ruined by a bunch of men who are going to floundering in talking abut female empowerment and how much they believe in it etc...and then devolve into the same clueless men mansplaining to all the women what empowerment is or isn't.

It seems when I predict something negative I'm a damn prophet, or as I always refer to myself a student of base human nature or simply put, humanity(like that word even applies these days) will always in the end default to selfishness, bad behavior, and refusing to ever admit they're wrong or don't understand something, men very heavily fall under the last two.

People here no, and are probably sick of, me calling out misogyny, the sites BS rape rule, taking shots at the incels in loving wives and my hatred of "real men" and that women's rights are the hill I'll die on. I've spent years volunteering at a shelter for battered women, I teach self defense courses there and help out in other ways, I've been in women's rights marches, etc.

First of all, this was not "an event about female empowerment". The aim was to write female characters that make sense, and female empowerment was one of the themes. I will omit that next year because some single-minded individuals seem to get so triggered by that they don't see a bigger picture once that term is written somewhere.

I assume that you already think you write female characters that make sense, and personally have nothing to gain from entering an event like this, but in a spirit of "be the change you want to see in the world" I find it peculiar that not only do you decide to sit this out, you've gone through the trouble of talking against my event in other threads to scare other authors away from entering. I find that is a very unproductive and unhelpful attitude.

So, your way of working for women's rights is the only way, and if anyone tries anything else, like promoting women-centric erotica on an erotica site, it's an effort that's doomed to fail so it's just as well to undermine it? You have every right not to take part for whatever reason, but this talking against my event is what I can't understand. I would've thought that in your "people know that women's rights are the hill I'll die on" attitude you would've been interested in either helping or at least sitting this one out quietly, but this active taking a stance against my efforts is what makes no sense to me.

But notice I didn't partake in this, and there's two reasons. One, I knew the farce the men here would turn it into.
But more importantly, for all my passion for the topic, and desire to see empowerment and equality for women...I am NOT a woman. I don't know how it feels to be one, to deal with what they deal with, to have to experience the shit they've been through and in the case of rape and abuse be hurt, but have it turned on them that it was their fault. I have empathy and compassion, but I still cannot speak to how women think feel react etc Maybe an easier way of saying it is there's times to no your place or boundary.

But I'm unique in that way, my male ego isn't so fragile that I can't admit not understanding something, and then trying to force my moronic opinion on someone anyway.

And yet, you feel comfortable enough writing females who think feel react etc.

There is someone in this contest that is the last person who should ever be writing women empowerment stories, they know who they are and that I'm talking about them. Yet they come here for fake points with the female writers "I'm talking to a woman, maybe they'll think I'm a feminist and I can start talking dirty to them" yeah, that's all it is for some here. I may not know what its like to be a woman, but I know men, especially one type I hate, smell them a mile away and it reeks in here.

I don't appreciate you coming here pissing on those who did make an effort to participate. Much less in this "you know who you are" manner.

For the rest it was a legit exercise and that's commendable, but that's the minority. Others have just shown their true face by needing, as I said before, to tell all the little womens here all about what's empowering.

Nothing like good intentions ruined by phonies. Can't wait for the same people writing in this event to go back to their latest Burn the bitch stories and rape fantasies.

Next year I will host this again, and I will do my best to format the event announcement to be even clearer. I hope that at that time you will either get off your high horse and participate, or have the courtesy to not talk others out of participating. In the meanwhile, if you have better ideas on how to advance women's rights in smut, you're welcome to act on them.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Also, it’s Literotica, and you gotta get to the wanking part, and the more time you spend on building a good character, the more risk you have of losing your audience.

You need to read different stories.

Mine are all character based, slow burn and mood, with positive sex. That's what I'm known for, I think, and my readers regularly thank me for writing these stories. 80% are Red H, so someone appreciates character driven stories. With hot sex.

 

[Lifestyle66]

The aim was to write female characters that make sense, and female empowerment was one of the themes.

I assume that you already think you write female characters that make sense,

So, your way of working for women's rights is the only way, and if anyone tries anything else, like promoting women-centric erotica on an erotica site, it's an effort that's doomed to fail so it's just as well to undermine it?

Next year I will host this again, and I will do my best to format the event announcement to be even clearer.

I asked you to beta-read my entry, and I accepted your inputs to try making it better. But in your PMs, YOU tried to discourage me from entering my story.

I knew before posting it my story's theme and title would provoke a negative reaction from many women from the beginning. But I hoped some readers could read beyond that and look objectively at my female characters as people doing what they want to do.

You might try just asking for stories which will appeal mostly to women, and with that challenge, I would have known my story could never be to your liking. Try avoiding the nebulous terms of "sex-positivity", "agency", and others which don't seem to mean anything consistent unless you first define them.

 

[Omenainen]

I asked you to beta-read my entry, and I accepted your inputs to try making it better. But in your PMs, YOU tried to discourage me from entering my story.

I did, because based on our interaction I didn't think you were going to listen to my feedback. You did, and I think the story you published was way better than the draft you originally sent me. You felt yourself that taking my advice made it better. So that is actually one of the wins in this event, despite this endless back and forth we've been having ever since. You took a swing, you listened to feedback, you improved. That's worth a gold star for honest effort:

I knew before posting it my story's theme and title would provoke a negative reaction from many women from the beginning. But I hoped some readers could read beyond that and look objectively at my female characters as people doing what they want to do.

I'm just going to be blunt about this. It's not the theme, or the title. You just don't write half as well as you think you do. You don't need to hope that "some readers could read beyond" something if you get your ideas across better. What you want to say and what you get on paper aren't the same thing, and you should focus on that, instead of comforting yourself with "oh but women just don't get this" or "well it has to be because it takes place at a strip club". It's not about that. Trust me. Learn to read what you've actually written instead of what you had in your head when you were writing it. That'll take you places.

You might try just asking for stories which will appeal mostly to women, and with that challenge, I would have known my story could never be to your liking. Try avoiding the nebulous terms of "sex-positivity", "agency", and others which don't seem to mean anything consistent unless you first define them.

Oh, right! Because "stories which will appeal mostly to women" is such an unambiguous concept?

What about the nebulous term of "woman"? This is getting quite difficult! How about...

Pink Orchid: The Story Event for Person-Centric Erotica
Theme of the event: Persons having sex with each other or by themselves!

Think that's generic enough? Or is the "Pink" too off-putting?

 

[Lifestyle66]

I'm just going to be blunt about this. It's not the theme, or the title. You just don't write half as well as you think you do. You don't need to hope that "some readers could read beyond" something if you get your ideas across better. What you want to say and what you get on paper aren't the same thing, and you should focus on that, instead of comforting yourself with "oh but women just don't get this" or "well it has to be because it takes place at a strip club". It's not about that. Trust me. Learn to read what you've actually written instead of what you had in your head when you were writing it. That'll take you places.

I appreciate your bluntness ... this time. I want to learn to write better stories.

But your previous complaints about my story focused on criticizing my female character as manipulating and overcontrolling, not about the quality of the writing.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I knew before posting it my story's theme and title would provoke a negative reaction from many women from the beginning. But I hoped some readers could read beyond that and look objectively at my female characters as people doing what they want to do.

I think it's a pretty big ask to expect readers of erotica to approach it "objectively." It's the writer's job to convey the message you are trying to get across, through narrative and characterization. It's not the responsibility of the reader to understand what you are trying to get across, it's up to you to present it in a way that is adequate to your purpose.

You might try just asking for stories which will appeal mostly to women, and with that challenge, I would have known my story could never be to your liking. Try avoiding the nebulous terms of "sex-positivity", "agency", and others which don't seem to mean anything consistent unless you first define them.

Is it your position that female centered stories with fully realized women as the central characters only appeal to women?

 

[Lifestyle66]

I think it's a pretty big ask to expect readers of erotica to approach it "objectively." It's the writer's job to convey the message you are trying to get across, through narrative and characterization. It's not the responsibility of the reader to understand what you are trying to get across, it's up to you to present it in a way that is adequate to your purpose.




Is it your position that female centered stories with fully realized women as the central characters only appeal to women?

I thought I DID present my female character in a way that was adequate, but the only negative comments I received attacked that female character, and not the quality of my writing. The story is actually my highest rated (not a Red H, but close).

Upon further reflection of O's last post, would it be more correct for me to think a better critique of my own story (from the Pink Orchid POV): my female character doesn't grow?

She's a strong-willed (manipulative and overcontrolling per O) and goes forth to always get what she wants. In the husband's POV, they play off each other as equals, and the story (merely) has her fulfilling one of her fantasies. But there's no growth! She's merely there.

EDIT: I was presenting a story where the female was proud of who she was and takes and gets what she wants. But it seems I might have missed the mark, by not having a female who overcame challenges to become better.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I thought I DID present my female character in a way that was adequate, but the only negative comments I received attacked that female character, and not the quality of my writing. The story is actually my highest rated (not a Red H, but close).

Upon further reflection of O's last post, would it be more correct for me to think a better critique of my own story (from the Pink Orchid POV): my female character doesn't grow?

She's a strong-willed (manipulative and overcontrolling per O) and goes forth to always get what she wants. In the husband's POV, they play off each other as equals, and the story (merely) has her fulfilling one of her fantasies. But there's no growth! She's merely there.

EDIT: I was presenting a story where the female was proud of who she was and takes and gets what she wants. But it seems I might have missed the mark, by not having a female who overcame challenges to become better.

I have no opinion on the specifics of your story, I have not read it yet. My comment was that I think it’s foolish to expect readers to be objective in their interpretation of your characters.

 

[SimonDoom]

Also, it’s Literotica, and you gotta get to the wanking part, and the more time you spend on building a good character, the more risk you have of losing your audience.

One might think this is true, but it's not true, if one looks at the data. There is a huge audience at Literotica for long stories with substantial character development. There's clearly a correlation between skillful character development and high scores.

 

[MelissaBaby]

One might think this is true, but it's not true, if one looks at the data. There is a huge audience at Literotica for long stories with substantial character development. There's clearly a correlation between skillful character development and high scores.

Is this a rare opportunity for me to be a good example?

 

[SimonDoom]

Is this a rare opportunity for me to be a good example?

Absolutely. Your stories are very strong on character. Even the silly White Castle story, which I really liked.

If you look around, you can see plenty of long, character-based stories that get high scores and plenty of views, undermining the narrative that most Literotica readers just want short stroke stories.

Not that there's anything wrong with short stroke stories, mind you.