Poly Families with kids?

[Netzach]

Alright now, stop romanticising poly.

Nope, just pointing out that if poly people fuck it all up they're on the bell curve in that regard. The vast majority of people seem to fuck up parenting, so everyone should have the right to fuck up equally.

 

[Netzach]

I'm not saying they're unhappy about it. But happy and loving people with the best intentions haven't necessarily carefully considered the ramifications, as rida expressed it. Maybe. Not necessarily.



No, that's neither here nor there. As long as they love the kid, what? What comes next? Everything will be end happily ever after? No, not necessarily. As long as they are willing to be there for that kid until he's 18, and be committed to parenting that kid into adulthood, then we've got something. Lots of people think playing house is fun. 18 years is a long time.

So? I can say this to zillions of other people? Where's the wagging finger when people who have no business doing it get knocked up? Those people can be het, poly, straight, married, not, any race or income level. Rich and poor people fuck their kids up differently and rich people will sit and say "well they shouldn't reproduce" when *they* shouldn't half the time.

How's this -everyone own your own shit and three people happy about a baby is a fine thing in this world, as long as you don't sit next to me on a plane with it screaming.

 

[BiBunny]

Nope, just pointing out that if poly people fuck it all up they're on the bell curve in that regard. The vast majority of people seem to fuck up parenting, so everyone should have the right to fuck up equally.

QFT.

I grew up in a traditional Southern Baptist household--one mother, one father, still married to this day. They hated each others' guts (still do). I remember being dragged into their fights when I was still in elementary school. I still have to listen to them complain about one another, and I hate it. I have no idea why they're still together, other than just to aggravate the piss out of each other.

I have commitment issues out the ass. I NEVER want to be married because I've seen how miserable it makes people. And kids? Forget it. I always want to bitch-slap people who start that "stay together for the kids, one mom and one dad" bullshit. Believe me, it doesn't always work like it should. No sense in making kids suffer because you're a fucking dumbass with fucking dumbass principles.

/tangent

 

[intothewoods]

Nope, just pointing out that if poly people fuck it all up they're on the bell curve in that regard. The vast majority of people seem to fuck up parenting, so everyone should have the right to fuck up equally.

Most people are assholes. I certainly don't want to take away anyone's right to be an asshole. I'm just not going to coo over a three guys in an ob-gyn office because they showed up.

Lately I talk to new parents about this article. I'm not signing up to argue about poly parents. Again, congratulations and welcome to the herd. Here's the La Leche number. Here's my cloth diaper technique. Playtex is now BPA free. Enjoy.

 

[Homburg]

I'm not saying they're unhappy about it. But happy and loving people with the best intentions haven't necessarily carefully considered the ramifications, as rida expressed it. Maybe. Not necessarily.

....

I recognise that this is a poly thread, and you are driven to play devil's advocate, but, wow, that's going a bit far. The information we are given points to at least three people that are excited about the birth of the child, and in the OB/GYN waiting room. Any logical person can see a strong likelihood that they are happy and perceive themselves to be ready. I've yet to see anyone argue that they carefully considered every possioble ramification.

No, that's neither here nor there.

Yeah, it is. You are making the straw man argument that people are romanticising poly, and somehow stating that poly is better than mono. It is here. See above if you've forgotten.

As long as they love the kid, what? What comes next? Everything will be end happily ever after? No, not necessarily. As long as they are willing to be there for that kid until he's 18, and be committed to parenting that kid into adulthood, then we've got something. Lots of people think playing house is fun. 18 years is a long time.

This is different from monogamous families how? Or single parent families how? What is the difference? Your verbage is such that you immediately attach a higher standard of proof to a poly relationship than you do to a mono one. I've yet to see you present such arguments against child-bearing when the topic is brought up by mono folk, yet every single last question there is 100% applicable to any breeder, regardless of orientation.

Why the bias? Why the straw man attacks?

I would make a joke about how we're not gay, so we aren't threatening your marriage, but, well, some of us are gay/queer, and you're not married, so it really wouldn't fit

 

[intothewoods]

So? I can say this to zillions of other people? Where's the wagging finger when people who have no business doing it get knocked up? Those people can be het, poly, straight, married, not, any race or income level. Rich and poor people fuck their kids up differently and rich people will sit and say "well they shouldn't reproduce" when *they* shouldn't half the time.

I don't wag. I do support Planned Parenthood. I feel sorry for Sarah Palin's daughter and that kid.

How's this -everyone own your own shit and three people happy about a baby is a fine thing in this world, as long as you don't sit next to me on a plane with it screaming.

My shit belongs to me, and I try and stay off planes.

 

[Homburg]

Lately I talk to new parents about this article.

*blink*

You posted an article about an explicitly negotiated equal-power relationship on a BDSM thread. That's some funny shit

 

[Netzach]

Most people are assholes. I certainly don't want to take away anyone's right to be an asshole. I'm just not going to coo over a three guys in an ob-gyn office because they showed up.

You're missing the point. It's not that they're guys and they showed up. It's that they are serious enough about the arrangement to live life in the open. In spite of the fact that everyone and their dog is going to feel entitled to tell them what they should be doing starting yesterday.

It must be pretty important to them. People don't go out of closets and become social paraiahs because it's just so hip.

 

[EmpressFi]

Granted, it's not the same scenario by any stretch of the imagination, but when Malin and I found out we were pregnant, after checking the dates to check date of conception, one of the first things we asked ourselves was... are we going to remain poly. Our answer was ..

Yes.

We do not have to flaunt our lifestyle in front of our baby. And we both recognized that it also depended on the reaction of our significant others when we shared the news, but we knew that as far as we were concerned, our baby would have an aunt and uncle who loved them very much and would be part of their extended family.

If I could see that family, I would embrace them and wish them luck. Not because I think they'll need extra luck because they're poly but because parenting is the hardest job I've had and our baby isnt even born yet.

 

[intothewoods]

....

I recognise that this is a poly thread, and you are driven to play devil's advocate, but, wow, that's going a bit far. The information we are given points to at least three people that are excited about the birth of the child, and in the OB/GYN waiting room. Any logical person can see a strong likelihood that they are happy and perceive themselves to be ready. I've yet to see anyone argue that they carefully considered every possioble ramification.

I was actually quoting rida:

And as Homburg-sama stated, chances are that the quadriad you saw have thought out the ramification of them getting pregnant very carefully.

Yeah, it is. You are making the straw man argument that people are romanticising poly, and somehow stating that poly is better than mono. It is here. See above if you've forgotten.

The crackheads suck worse than poly people is not a romanticization of poly. That's why I'm saying it's neither here nor there on that argument.

This is different from monogamous families how? Or single parent families how? What is the difference? Your verbage is such that you immediately attach a higher standard of proof to a poly relationship than you do to a mono one. I've yet to see you present such arguments against child-bearing when the topic is brought up by mono folk, yet every single last question there is 100% applicable to any breeder, regardless of orientation.

Why the bias? Why the straw man attacks?

I would make a joke about how we're not gay, so we aren't threatening your marriage, but, well, some of us are gay/queer, and you're not married, so it really wouldn't fit

My point is not that poly should be held to a higher standard. Just the same one. When mono folk have discussed child-rearing and bdsm around here, for example, I've had plenty to say. I never said, hurrah, you're mono, I'm sure that makes it better for Johnny when he sees Daddy whupping your ass. I have bitched about all sorts of public shit around kids. The mono folk don't like it any better. Shocker.

I don't know why this became a conversation about rights. I support the right of all legal consenting adults to do whatever the fuck they want, including marriage. I always have, and I always will. Give me a break.

 

[intothewoods]

You're missing the point. It's not that they're guys and they showed up. It's that they are serious enough about the arrangement to live life in the open. In spite of the fact that everyone and their dog is going to feel entitled to tell them what they should be doing starting yesterday.

It must be pretty important to them. People don't go out of closets and become social paraiahs because it's just so hip.

Point taken.

I realize it makes me a downer, but I don't start from the premise that all people should go and have a baby and won't it all be wonderful.

*blink*

You posted an article about an explicitly negotiated equal-power relationship on a BDSM thread. That's some funny shit

I think the explicitly negotiated part makes it fit in pretty well actually.

 

[rida]

That would be nice, but I don't know why it woud be necessarily so. People leap into having kids all the time.

I don't think romanticizing poly to be any better a situation than mono makes sense.

I guess that I tend to give people more credit than they deserve, because ever since I knew I wanted children I thought it out very carefully. To the point that I was not going to have a hoopla if I could avoid it (got on the pill as soon as I got a bf and I was still virgin ...). But since accident could happen, I also thought about how I would deal with it.

And when I met my now Hubby and we got together and we wanted children, I thought it out some more and even signed up for a special health insurance that would help me cover hospital costs (pregnancy not being considered illnesses are not covered under the National Health Insurance Plan), and even calculated that the best was to have 2 kids within 7 years.

It always baffles me when I hear about a grown woman that got pregnant by accident (not talking about rape victims here). Yes, it can happen unplanned, but it should always be in the back of your mind that if you have sex it can happen. Period. And be ready to deal with it.

And without even touching on the subject of poly, as being poly or not has, to me, nothing to do with being good parents or not.




P.S. CONGRATULATION to EmpressFI

 

[Homburg]

The crackheads suck worse than poly people is not a romanticization of poly. That's why I'm saying it's neither here nor there on that argument.

Okay, so maybe you can tell me where the romanticising is? Or where people are saying poly is better? One person said something positive about one existing poly relationship, and in-context made clear that it was a unique relationship, not indicative of some trend.

My point is not that poly should be held to a higher standard. Just the same one. When mono folk have discussed child-rearing and bdsm around here, for example, I've had plenty to say. I never said, hurrah, you're mono, I'm sure that makes it better for Johnny when he sees Daddy whupping your ass. I have bitched about all sorts of public shit around kids. The mono folk don't like it any better. Shocker.

I guess we'll have to disagree here. Then again, it may just be perception on my part *shrug*

Still, I see no implication of "public" shit here. Why assume that public shit is going to occur if you're not going to assume that happy, loving people in an OB/GYN office are on-board with the idea of having a baby?

I don't know why this became a conversation about rights. I support the right of all legal consenting adults to do whatever the fuck they want, including marriage. I always have, and I always will. Give me a break.

Rights? Hunh? I must be reading a different thread.

--

I think the explicitly negotiated part makes it fit in pretty well actually.

It still made me laugh. You brought the funnay.

 

[Puman]

Alright now, stop romanticising poly.

LOL! If I didn't know better, I'd swear that you were stirring...mmm... I think I am right.

 

[kinkyknickers]

LOL! If I didn't know better, I'd swear that you were stirring...

Must be. It goes without saying that poly is wonderfully romantic as it is.

 

[Homburg]

LOL! If I didn't know better, I'd swear that you were stirring...mmm... I think I am right.

*gasp*

I am totally innocent. Okay, totally not-guilty. Totally!

--

Must be. It goes without saying that poly is wonderfully romantic as it is.

Right! What's all this then? You there, with the knickers. Stop romanticising poly, else I shall have to drub you soundly with a herring.

 

[kinkyknickers]

Welllllllll if that's the way you feel......

I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

 

[Homburg]

Welllllllll if that's the way you feel......

I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

*swoon*

 

[the_mgp]

vomit

 

[Homburg]

"Non-judgemental" is a very good word, MGP. I think it is the crux of the matter as well. Kids are honestly not that judgemental when they're little, and if you continue to teach them to be so, odds are fair that they won't grow up hatin' on fags/jews/blacks/whatever, or judging those folk what aren't like them.

As to acting in front of the kids, well, I hug viv, I hug MIS. I hug my friends when they come over. I hug the kids. I kiss viv and MIS and kids, but not my friends. And we're talking little hello kisses, not "I'm trying to find your uvula" kisses. We don't fuck in front of the kids. I say "I love you." to viv, the kids, MIS, etc. I even say it on occassion to the friends that I honestly do love, as a couple of them have been friends for 15-20 years, and they're like family. Wow, yeah. Kinky freak stuff that will certainly fuck my kids up.

Part of the reason why I'm less worried about it is demographics. Things are changing, and you are FAR more likely to have kids in class with yours that don't come from mom-dad-nuclear families. Y'all remember the media brouhaha over the "Soandso has two daddies" kid's book, right? Well, that book is pretty mundane now, and I could probably find a copy in the school library here in the Bible Belt. Odds are that at some point in your kid's school career, he or she will be in a class with someone that has two daddies, or two mommies, or daddy doesn't live with them any more because he lives with his boyfriend. And I guarantee your kid will be in class with kids from single parent families (see Netz' post above regarding the success rate for mono marriages).

The point is that things are changing, even here in backwards prudish America. Will poly ever be mainstream? Not in the foreseeable future, but non-nuclear families are already not the only option. Hell, single-parent families weren't all that uncommon when I was a kid, just not in schools on military bases.

 

[intothewoods]

Okay, so maybe you can tell me where the romanticising is? Or where people are saying poly is better? One person said something positive about one existing poly relationship, and in-context made clear that it was a unique relationship, not indicative of some trend.

Homburg, first of all, I don't have the energy for this argument. I am so not invested in attacking polyamory.

My comment about romanticization had to do with the tone of one comment, which struck me in the moment as being flip where a child is concerned. It's not unique to poly posters at all. Generally speaking, many posters around here speak this way about their lives, and it turns me off. No one likes it any better when I mention it elsewhere. So I'll stop mentioning it.

I guess we'll have to disagree here. Then again, it may just be perception on my part *shrug*

It's absolutely your perception, but if anything, if I don't post it as often, it's because I don't have the energy to be a finger wagger all the time.

Still, I see no implication of "public" shit here. Why assume that public shit is going to occur if you're not going to assume that happy, loving people in an OB/GYN office are on-board with the idea of having a baby?

You misunderstand me. There was no implication of public shit, and I wasn't saying there was. I was saying that, as an example, I can recall right now a thread where I complained about mono parents and their parenting choices -- it was a thread about public discipline around one's kids. I was only slightly more popular in that thread. I do not throw a party every time a mono parent gets knocked up, just because they are mono. Again, I would be happy to be more explicit to craptastic mono parents to be, if only I didn't hate nasty internet spats so darn much. So I'll just try to remember not to say anything next time.

I get that there is a lot of anger at being judged simply because you (general you) are poly. That totally sucks, and it's a very charged discussion around here, which I made the mistake of entering at all, and at least without several disclaimers. I don't have the stomach for it.

I'm not against you, and I'm not against poly. I defend poly people all the time to my vanilla friends, and I frankly will shoot myself in the head if I have to have this argument simultaneous with the other argument.

 

[intothewoods]

I guess that I tend to give people more credit than they deserve, because ever since I knew I wanted children I thought it out very carefully. To the point that I was not going to have a hoopla if I could avoid it (got on the pill as soon as I got a bf and I was still virgin ...). But since accident could happen, I also thought about how I would deal with it.

And when I met my now Hubby and we got together and we wanted children, I thought it out some more and even signed up for a special health insurance that would help me cover hospital costs (pregnancy not being considered illnesses are not covered under the National Health Insurance Plan), and even calculated that the best was to have 2 kids within 7 years.

It always baffles me when I hear about a grown woman that got pregnant by accident (not talking about rape victims here). Yes, it can happen unplanned, but it should always be in the back of your mind that if you have sex it can happen. Period. And be ready to deal with it.

And without even touching on the subject of poly, as being poly or not has, to me, nothing to do with being good parents or not.




P.S. CONGRATULATION to EmpressFI

First of all, I wasn't sure if that was an announcement from Fi? If so, congratulations!

I am probably a pessimist. My own childhood was really wonderful, no complaints or scars. But I see so many selfish parents around me. Parents who would rather stick it to their ex than do the right thing by their kid. (Not my ex) Or who just don't enjoy their kids. Or whose kids are so totally overindulged that they are little hellions who I have to separate from my kid (and that's saying something, 'cause I usually just say, let them work it out - I don't hover)Kids having kids. Etc.

 

[Homburg]

My comment about romanticization had to do with the tone of one comment, which struck me in the moment as being flip where a child is concerned. It's not unique to poly posters at all. Generally speaking, many posters around here speak this way about their lives, and it turns me off. No one likes it any better when I mention it elsewhere. So I'll stop mentioning it.

It is a very common line taken by, well, you and others that consistently post in the negative on these threads. The irony is that poly people very rarely romanticise it, and are usually the first to say that it's frikken hard to make work.

It's absolutely your perception, but if anything, if I don't post it as often, it's because I don't have the energy to be a finger wagger all the time.

"Absolutely" my perception? Nice.

Maybe instead of not posting because you don't have the energy to finger-wag you could just, I dunno, not wag the finger. I see shit on here all the time that is less than prudent and don't say a thing. The times when I speak up are those where A) the thread overall is interesting, B) the imprudent advice is criminal or bloody dangerous, C) I'm just feeling judgemental.

You misunderstand me. There was no implication of public shit, and I wasn't saying there was. I was saying that, as an example, I can recall right now a thread where I complained about mono parents and their parenting choices -- it was a thread about public discipline around one's kids. I was only slightly more popular in that thread. I do not throw a party every time a mono parent gets knocked up, just because they are mono. Again, I would be happy to be more explicit to craptastic mono parents to be, if only I didn't hate nasty internet spats so darn much. So I'll just try to remember not to say anything next time.

Nasty internet spats with poly people are less hateful?

I get that there is a lot of anger at being judged simply because you (general you) are poly. That totally sucks, and it's a very charged discussion around here, which I made the mistake of entering at all, and at least without several disclaimers. I don't have the stomach for it.

You can use the specific "you" here, it's cool. I get grumpy about this, yup.

[qoute]I'm not against you, and I'm not against poly. I defend poly people all the time to my vanilla friends, and I frankly will shoot myself in the head if I have to have this argument simultaneous with the other argument.[/QUOTE]

Don't fuckin shoot yourself. Regardless of our disagreement here, you are one of my favourite people on Lit.

Or whose kids are so totally overindulged that they are little hellions who I have to separate from my kid (and that's saying something, 'cause I usually just say, let them work it out - I don't hover)

Sounds like some of the kids on the scout camping trip we just got back from.

It's kinda cool though, as it makes me appreciate how well-behaved my own brood is.

 

[intothewoods]

It is a very common line taken by, well, you and others that consistently post in the negative on these threads. The irony is that poly people very rarely romanticise it, and are usually the first to say that it's frikken hard to make work.

People on Lit in the bdsm forums overall romanticize everything. The people I am friends with in my kink group do not do this.

"Absolutely" my perception? Nice.

I say absolutely, because there's no way in hell the poly folk around here are winning worst parent of the year awards.

Maybe instead of not posting because you don't have the energy to finger-wag you could just, I dunno, not wag the finger. I see shit on here all the time that is less than prudent and don't say a thing. The times when I speak up are those where A) the thread overall is interesting, B) the imprudent advice is criminal or bloody dangerous, C) I'm just feeling judgemental.

I just said that. And I was joking about finger wagging. And so do I - see shit on here all the time that is less than prudent and don't say a thing. Most of the time, it's because I said it three Doms ago, and I'm losing my voice at this point. Also, I've dished it out, but am honest about the fact that I am not perfect and have made dumb choices. Furthermore, parenting is hard. I don't sit back and rest on my laurels. I worry and I read and I plan and revise and further plan how best to coparent my kid with my ex. I subject myself to my own criticism and then some.

I don't have a problem with being judgmental, because my judgment is not you are going to burn in hell or are otherwise a bad person.

 

[Homburg]

People on Lit in the bdsm forums overall romanticize everything. The people I am friends with in my kink group do not do this.

Agree with you to an extent there. Though I can point to a lot of poly people here that do not romanticise at all. See bij's excellent "DO NOT DO THIS" piece a while back.

I say absolutely, because there's no way in hell the poly folk around here are winning worst parent of the year awards.

I would hope not. I would hope that no one here is going to be winning the worst parent award.

I just said that. And I was joking about finger wagging. And so do I - see shit on here all the time that is less than prudent and don't say a thing. Most of the time, it's because I said it three Doms ago, and I'm losing my voice at this point. Also, I've dished it out, but am honest about the fact that I am not perfect and have made dumb choices. Furthermore, parenting is hard. I don't sit back and rest on my laurels. I worry and I read and I plan and revise and further plan how best to coparent my kid with my ex. I subject myself to my own criticism and then some.

I don't have a problem with being judgmental, because my judgment is not you are going to burn in hell or are otherwise a bad person.

Well, that's no fun. Why be judgemental if you aren't going to do it right?