Punishment

[Kajira Callista]

http://www.soulshaven.f2s.com/net_idiots.php3 I really do hate to see people in this lifestlye being judged...thats not what its about, its not anyones place or right to do so. Ya see what it comes down to is what is right or wrong between a Master and a sub, and its no on elses business nor is it abuse unless that sub is asking for help. No one has the right to make you feel like something is bad or wrong when it wasnt bad or wrong for you. Hell dont we all get enough of that from the so called "normal" ppl, do we need to get it in a place we come to belong?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

http://www.soulshaven.f2s.com/net_idiots.php3 I really do hate to see people in this lifestlye being judged...thats not what its about, its not anyones place or right to do so. Ya see what it comes down to is what is right or wrong between a Master and a sub, and its no on elses business nor is it abuse unless that sub is asking for help. No one has the right to make you feel like something is bad or wrong when it wasnt bad or wrong for you. Hell dont we all get enough of that from the so called "normal" ppl, do we need to get it in a place we come to belong?

On the other hand, shall we cover abuse under the umbrella of 'let's not be judgmental'? For a moment, pretend that you live in the real world, where many people are fucked up to one degree or another. Do you think that BDSM contains more people with emotional issues, or less? If this is a community, then it is one that has as much relationship to a 12-step program as it does to a social club. If people post things that raise a red flag, shall we just shrug our shoulders and ignore it, or tell it like we see it?

 

[Kajira Callista]

How did it raise a red flag? was she distressed by it? I didnt see that in her post...if i did i would have said something to her or asked if she was in need of help....some ppl like extreme some ppl dont. Because you dont approve of it, doesnt mean its wrong or abusive for a person.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

How did it raise a red flag? was she distressed by it? I didnt see that in her post...if i did i would have said something to her or asked if she was in need of help....some ppl like extreme some ppl dont. Because you dont approve of it, doesnt mean its wrong or abusive for a person.

She wasn't disturbed...she was the one who seemed to be abusive, and out of control. Why the FUCK should she need help? She got the attention and chaos that she is addicted to.

 

[Ms_Lilith]

I have just raised this thread to the attention of Sir, and His opinion is that I am not, and never have been abusive. He saw the incident as me completely stepping out of my role, and I was punished for it, that is that. Our relationship has not, and we believe, will not suffer from one night's insubordination.

Just to clarify for Johhny, no, Sir has never been in an abusive relationship. His family are loving and wonderful people, His last girlfriends have been very kind, and I get along with them rather well. He's one of the most emotionally stable people I've ever met. If He sees a situation like that, and doesn't call abuse, then I honestly don't believe that I abused Him. I didn't believe I'd abused Him even before we spoke about it (again). He and I see things differently than you and Anelize do.

 

[Kajira Callista]

And obviously her Master thought it was something he wanted to give her! Id love to discuss this more but im goin ta bed....sweet dreams

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I have just raised this thread to the attention of Sir, and His opinion is that I am not, and never have been abusive. He saw the incident as me completely stepping out of my role, and I was punished for it, that is that. Our relationship has not, and we believe, will not suffer from one night's insubordination.

Just to clarify for Johhny, no, Sir has never been in an abusive relationship. His family are loving and wonderful people, His last girlfriends have been very kind, and I get along with them rather well. He's one of the most emotionally stable people I've ever met. If He sees a situation like that, and doesn't call abuse, then I honestly don't believe that I abused Him. I didn't believe I'd abused Him even before we spoke about it (again). He and I see things differently than you and Anelize do.

What about YOUR abuse, your trauma? Good for your 'Sir', if he doesn't mind pretending to be in charge while you roll over him.

 

[Kajira Callista]

As i pmed you vixen...stepping out of your role does happen and if you and Master are over it i would drop the discussion here. Its no ones place to judge who is submissive and who is not, who is Dominant and who is not....who is right or who is wrong in a D/s relationship......period!

 

[Caitlynne]

OK, I've followed this and I need to chime in.

Here is the reality of this kind of thread (and others like it), once you bring something like this to the forum, you (generic you here) open it up to 'our' opinions.

Its really as simple as that. Good or bad, right or wrong (from any POV), once you go public you get what you get. We're all entitled to speak our minds. Free Speech remember?

Some people are going to just answer from their own experience. Some people are going to question the experiences as related by some. Some people are going to shake their heads and say.. "What the Fuck?"

Its called the court of public opinion. Should it run your life or define your life? Not if you don't want it to or let it. But, you, we, all of us need to take responsibility for what we put before the members of this forum. You post it, be ready for the individual opinions of anyone who decides to respond.

Will all the responses seem fair? No. That's life.

And here is MY opinion on the topic of the current dispute.. What goes on between you and your Master is between you and him, but when you put it in a public forum you involve all of us.

I personally consider it an additional attempt to gain attention. But that is my opinion. You might not see it that way and that is your opinion.

Some threads get started to gain attention, someone challenges the attempt, and a mini-war breaks out.. and a few wonder why... Well, because we've been included in the drama, we've been asked our opinions. You better expect some comments that challenge you, to think otherwise is foolish.

And before someone jumps in and says if I don't like it, don't read the damn thread... Well Duh! I'm personally not one to jump into these things because they are seldom of any value in the long run, but this one got to me.

Bottom line, if you don't want someone to say "What the Fuck?" then think about what you post before you post. Otherwise, hey someone like Johnny is going to challenge you. Its Johnny, he is a straight shooter, no bullshit kind of guy.. You can't honestly say you didn't expect it.

Anyway that's all I wanted to say... Think before you post and once you do, then damn the torpedoes its your life and you're the one who is living it, not any of us... But we're going to shoot from our hips too. That's just the way it is.

~ Cait

 

[MissTaken]

Q

There are many great points here.

Yes, wonderful post, caitlynne. When we post publicly, we are open to comment and need to be ready for that.

Second, my own two cents, "flame wars" and arguments begin and never end because one must never assume they can change another's mind. (Look at how many threads we have had on infidelity.)

Third, question for Vixie. Were you striking him in anger? Was he striking you in anger?

Then, As for bratty subs, I was never one and as a top only enjoyed brattiness when I was feeling playful. However, people do what they need to do in teh dynamics of their relatinship to get what they need. For some Doms, SAM (Sassy Ass Masochists? ) are the exactly what they seek. For others, not. What works for one, may not work for another.

Lastly, the last punishment I rendered was because a phone call wasn't made to me as expected. So, we talked out of scene and I explained how hurt I was. We then, talked in scene where he was suitably lectured in terms of the importance of respect between the two of us and how disrespectful not phoning was. Then, in the scene, I relied on the mind fuck, more than anything. I began by explaining to him that he would be receiving five times the number of strkes than ever before. After pushing his limits and just before the final strike, I told him he had stopped thanking me clearly. He was mumbling into a pillow as the intensity of the physical scene increased. I then, told him, we would have to start over! A bit more of lecture on respect and no, I didn't start over. *weg*

In truth, the matter was settled outside the scene, but was revisited in scene for purposes of refocusing his attention where it belongs, on me.

 

[ethereal~minx]

oh my gawd, vix~~ I loved your post and felt nothing but an awesome d/s connection between you and your Sir!

Some dominant's it seems would not appreciate a 'sassy~bratty~whatever you wanna call it' sub but it IS your relationship! Abuse? give me a fucking break (pardon my mouth)

Your Sir knows you, knows (at least this is what I believe) and is obviously with you every step of this d/s way! and he chose your punishment in the moment as he saw fit! so flippin what if you were begging for it!!! you didn't anticipate the punishment you got and I cant speak for you but it sure doesn't seem like you're crying for a way out of your relationship because of this!!!!

it looks like there are people here, that know you as intimately as anyone can know anyone online and they care deeply about you...I'm not saying relationship wise, but from behind the screens or on the phone, you delve into a deeper realm w/ people... you're real to yourself and to them...
it looks to me from the "..what about your ABUSE..." sandwiched in the" 'Good for your 'Sir', if he doesn't mind pretending to be in charge while you roll over him." was an expression of deep care veiled by sarcasm and judgement


perhaps they know you better than I~ because I only know what I read~ but I also don't see you as a victim ...and the only reason I imagine that your post could invoke such a response is because you have truly touched many lives here~~~ touched something inside each one of them that is causing them to get their own feathers ruffled up rather than look in the mirror and ask themselves why they're judging you~~~ when you have not asked for their help, advice whatever. your post was food-for-though... not pleading before a jury & asking judgement...

I understand that when you post on this forum, sure~ you do open yourself up and you open others up too~~~

it's a way to see yourself in these same happenings, these same situations...

weed has a great quote~ and I can't quote it word for word because I don't have it in front of me but it's something like this...

' each friend represents a world in us~ a world unknown before we met..'



Vix, you're awesome! never stop being you : ) & sharing yourself w/ us! I truly like the perspective you give me

and.....I liked the slap and not because I think it may have caused harm or was abuse in any flippin way~~

it sure feels/sounds like you have a deeeeeeep connection with your Sir~~~ and that communion is what this business is all about!

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Awww, is it group hug time?

If my sub, or my girlfriend, were to hit me, I would consider it to be an assault. To lash out in anger and beat up my submissive would stand in stark constrast to 'sane, safe, and consentual' behavior.

But, hey, let'[s support anyone who says BDSM, and never, ever think about anything. Group hugs, and let's just avoid any contemplation of behavior and consequences.

 

[ethereal~minx]

"If my sub, or my girlfriend, were to hit me, I would consider it to be an assault. To lash out in anger and beat up my submissive would stand in stark constrast to 'sane, safe, and consentual' behavior. "


to lash out in anger... there you go. I soo agree with you. this "hits" a little too close to home for me because I was the slapper that did lash out in anger~ however, I didn't beat anyone up and I am not a flipping violent person! and I was NOT in a secure deeeeeep trusting relationship~

the relationship~ a volatile one at times, yes! all flippin me? HELL NO! was I PUNCHED~ yes! do I worry about it~ HELL NO!

there are emotional limits as well as physical limits... the emotional toll took and the more two willing mutual consenting adults grow & learn to know eachother, the more power/control they have over themselves not to get to that point!



this may have to be edited~~~ I'll be right back~

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

"If my sub, or my girlfriend, were to hit me, I would consider it to be an assault. To lash out in anger and beat up my submissive would stand in stark constrast to 'sane, safe, and consentual' behavior. "


to lash out in anger... there you go. I soo agree with you. this "hits" a little too close to home for me because I was the slapper that did lash out in anger~ however, I didn't beat anyone up and I am not a flipping violent person! and I was NOT in a secure deeeeeep trusting relationship~

the relationship~ a volatile one at times, yes! all flippin me? HELL NO! was I PUNCHED~ yes! do I worry about it~ HELL NO!

there are emotional limits as well as physical limits... the emotional toll took and the more two willing mutual consenting adults grow & learn to know eachother, the more power/control they have over themselves not to get to that point!



this may have to be edited~~~ I'll be right back~

That's a damned risky way of growing and learning, don't you think? Isn't that a bit nutty?

 

[ethereal~minx]

"That's a damned risky way of growing and learning, don't you think? Isn't that a bit nutty?"

I understand what you're saying. and, if you view this out of the confines of a committed relationship~ yes, it can be...
it's a question each must ask themselves. it doesn't seem to me that vix & her Sir have this type of questioning going on (about their relationship)


if there is desire to grow and learn through eachothers eyes, heart, life~~ there is equal desire to walk through the thorns together as well~~

nobody wants to abuse another person, people are not evil
we all want the same thing~ happiness, to be understood
and when you see or become aware or don't stop looking inside for the motivation/reasons behind your own behavior that belittles you, you will never stop learning/growing... and it is a beautiful thing when there is a mutual consenting willing caring person to go through these experiences with~~

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

"That's a damned risky way of growing and learning, don't you think? Isn't that a bit nutty?"

I understand what you're saying. and, if you view this out of the confines of a committed relationship~ yes, it can be...
it's a question each must ask themselves. it doesn't seem to me that vix & her Sir have this type of questioning going on (about their relationship)


if there is desire to grow and learn through eachothers eyes, heart, life~~ there is equal desire to walk through the thorns together as well~~

nobody wants to abuse another person, people are not evil
we all want the same thing~ happiness, to be understood
and when you see or become aware or don't stop looking inside for the motivation/reasons behind your own behavior that belittles you, you will never stop learning/growing... and it is a beautiful thing when there is a mutual consenting willing caring person to go through these experiences with~~

'Mutual consent' doesn't equate to healthy, you know? Sid and Nancy were together by choice, and he ended up stabbing her! I don't care how committed a relationship is, it can be sick as anything. All your 'flowers and butterlies' idealized thinking doesn't make things ok, if you see my point?

Reading vixenshe's posts over the last year, she seems to be addicted to chaos, she will generally voluntarily choose things that aren't always in her best interest. Just because she chooses those things, it doesn't make it as wonderful as everyone would like to pretend.

I could choose to shoot heroin...would that make it a wonderful growing experience for me? Sometimes, folks, if you want to be supportive, you have to disagree with people.

 

[Netzach]

I could choose to submit to a woman and kneel when she told me to and wear what she wanted me to, and generally never challenge her in the open, and learn to enjoy being tied up and spanked.

That's really sick. It's a pathological and dependent behavior. I obviously have deep seated issues in my childhood to cause me to want such a thing.

What, this is narrow minded, right?

We're treading in interesting territory now, aren't we?

I haven't been following vixenshe's posts that closely over the last year. It's very easy for me to shudder at wanting what she obvoiusly wants in a relationship, but that's perfectly predictable....as for whether something is good for someone else or bad, I think I need to know them really well, like as well as I know M who I live with...before I can make that call. We project pretty tightly contstructed versions of ourselves online anyway, many mirrors much smoke.

Look, if a single one of us can honestly say we've never acted out in a relationship, been a manipulative baby, and generally been an asshole, bravo and kudos. Most of us, I think, tread through more conflict than that.

A thwack with a flogger may seem like the consummate affront to your personhood, Johnny, but it's not inherently that damaging unless you mean to be out for blood.

Would you throw a girlfriend out if she hit you with a pillow? Maybe you would. The majority of us, might not.

 

[ethereal~minx]

...Reading vixenshe's posts over the last year, she seems to be addicted to chaos, she will generally voluntarily choose things that aren't always in her best interest. Just because she chooses those things, it doesn't make it as wonderful as everyone would like to pretend. ...

I appreciate your heart Johnny Mayberry~ there is something in this bit that just went right to the core with me---

"...that aren't always in her best interest." according to you.

what I am learning is~ nobody wants to be fixed, you know why? because we're not broken. hear what we're saying and you just might see that I am capable of knowing my best interests just as you are of your own. if you really want to be supportive, should you feel there is a need/threat/what-have-you~~~ I'm more responsive if you validate my feelings/completeness/power and then open my eyes to new ways instead of ramming your best interests down my throat!

there is something to be said for mutual respect.

and, like I said~ you have a heart and it's huge and you care it's obvious...

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Would you throw a girlfriend out if she hit you with a pillow? Maybe you would. The majority of us, might not.

If she did it because she was hoping to piss me off, so I could hit her back...that would be different.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I appreciate your heart Johnny Mayberry~ there is something in this bit that just went right to the core with me---

"...that aren't always in her best interest." according to you.

what I am learning is~ nobody wants to be fixed, you know why? because we're not broken. hear what we're saying and you just might see that I am capable of knowing my best interests just as you are of your own. if you really want to be supportive, should you feel there is a need/threat/what-have-you~~~ I'm more responsive if you validate my feelings/completeness/power and then open my eyes to new ways instead of ramming your best interests down my throat!

there is something to be said for mutual respect.

and, like I said~ you have a heart and it's huge and you care it's obvious...

That's ironic, because the next thing I was going to say is that most of us have absolutely no power over the way we behave, and to pretend otherwise is a grave error.

 

[ethereal~minx]

That's ironic, because the next thing I was going to say is that most of us have absolutely no power over the way we behave, and to pretend otherwise is a grave error.

so, You believe in the original sin then... guilty until redeemed? have you seen "Lean on me" ..that math teacher that chose to see his class of "losers" as winners? there is inspiration in all of us~ we are all meant to soar with the eagles, to reach a higher truth~~~~ even when the behavior appears otherwise..."what we see is what we are"

look inside~ no one is plagued with the original sin and the sooner that is recognized so they can see it themselves, the sooner the behavior will balance itself out... we behave to get our needs met.. and until we have seen/known/learned a more harmonious way to get those needs met, our behavior may be outta control ... *the more I think about this, the more I think you were baiting me with that comment~~just to get a rise...*

the more you see the world through your own reflection~~~ the brighter you yourself become because it's there, at those moments of reflection, that you find out who you truly are.. strong not weak

 

[A Desert Rose]

we behave to get our needs met.. and until we have seen/known/learned a more harmonious way to get those needs met, our behavior may be outta control ...

So, does this make that sort of behavior alright, acceptable, appropriate, healthy?

I don't want to get into this discussion up to my neck, but it is so simple. If you hit someone out of anger or you are hit out of anger, it becomes an abusive relationship.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

ok

I had given my 2 cents earlier and i will stand by it. The point to Vixie's post was just to talk about her *punishment*. Her *Sir* seems to be fine, she is fine. Abuse NEVER makes You feel fine (speaking as one who has experienced abuse for myriad years and in many ways) Not every one is going to see this in the same way. Why should we? We are all different people with differing needs and abilities, period.

Dismissing someone as *abusive* or in *need of therapy* does not take into account the dynamics of the relationship. Like I said, the way she reacted is NOT how I would react. Most of my friends in the lifestyle would not react that way...if my boy or girl tried to react that way...well I would either be petless...or they would have serious issues for a long period of time. That does not mean I consider my way better...just better for ME.

And back to the original question..this past Saturday, I went to visit my boy. (Was supposed to have pictures up by this time but he showed off way too much to give him that pleasure)...His punishment...? I shaved him completely bare, poured baby oil on his shaft and scrote and stropped him to the count of 20 on the aforementioned parts.

pet

 

[ethereal~minx]

So, does this make that sort of behavior alright, acceptable, appropriate, healthy?

I don't want to get into this discussion up to my neck, but it is so simple. If you hit someone out of anger or you are hit out of anger, it becomes an abusive relationship.

it doesn't have to stay an abusive relationship
just like I can choose not to flipping hit someone~~~
or stop smoking
I don't buy into this "can't control your own behavior bs"

and owning your own behavior enough to know when it is abuse to remain in the relationship is about growth and learning ...

don't assume someone is weak ~and cannot choose to see through the pain~~ there is a reason for this behavior~~~ there's an unmet need that is sooooo deep that needs safety to come out...


owning control & power of your own self & behavior is what it's all about

 

[A Desert Rose]

it doesn't have to stay an abusive relationship
just like I can choose not to flipping hit someone~~~
or stop smoking
I don't buy into this "can't control your own behavior bs"

and owning your own behavior enough to know when it is abuse to remain in the relationship is about growth and learning ...

don't assume someone is weak ~and cannot choose to see through the pain~~ there is a reason for this behavior~~~ there's an unmet need that is sooooo deep that needs safety to come out...


owning control & power of your own self & behavior is what it's all about

Minx, I am not assuming anything about you or anyone else. I am not addressing Vixenshe's situation either. I only know what she and you have posted here and that is not enough information to make any comments on your situation or hers. I am not going to assess her life or yours. Honestly, I really don't care.

No one to this point as disagreed that when you are hit out of anger it is abuse. And that is, in the simplest terms, what the whole thing is about.