Punishment

[JMohegan]

Thank you.

Thank you, JMohegan, for your answer.

You are both quite welcome.

Feel free to call me John, or JM.

I have to say that this last sentence has made me giggling reading it. Sounds like great big fun.

Yes, it was.

 

[ownedsubgal]

bump, just cuz.

 

[intothewoods]

Interesting read! I usually don't think of punishment in terms of play - that sort of play is fabulous, but it's in the spirit of fun or foreplay, not discipline.

I really found seri and EB's responses particularly enlightening.

Punishment does not work for me in a relationship. I have a strong need to think things through for myself, and learn things on my own (mostly because I'm ridiculously stubborn). I wouldn't thrive in a relationship where there is training (again, except in an erotic way, in the bedroom, etc.) or corrective discipline. Punishment just does not really help me get past something. And I've tried! It helped, but I have to decide to let something go in my mind.

I think his authority is more of a final word kind of thing for us, in some areas where I'm wishy washy and appreciate a final word. We're more like a team of two with a team leader. I don't think punishment really fits in that sort of situation.

If JM comes back to this thread, I have a question about this quote:

The D/s aspect of my relationships has always extended beyond the bedroom, constituting the 24/7 framework of the partnership. I prefer general guidelines rather than a detailed list of rules, protocols, etc.

Can you give me some examples of guidelines (i.e., not the stuff of detailed rules, protocols, etc.)? As someone who is now fairly freaked out by anything that remotely smacks of micromanagement, I am in the position of all bets are off, and then dipping my toe in a bit of D/s and finding, ooh look, that works for everyone concerned. So I cautiously consider areas which might work further on down the road.

Also, I still have trouble reconciling punishment in a relationship that is a partnership. You used the word partnership yourself - does or did this ever trouble you?

 

[ownedsubgal]

Rather I'd like to learn more about reasons for punishing. Is punishment used for training or rather to maintain a certain level of training? Is it used for every tiny thing that the PYL doesn't like, or sparingly for only major offences?
Do you have rules that could be termed laws in your relationship that are enforced with punishment?
Do you believe punishment to be necessary for a D/s relationship?

If you want me to elaborate more, explain what I mean, please feel free to ask.

no, punishment is not necessary for a D/s relationship, it all depends on what works for the individual relationship dynamic and those involved. punishment is absolutely necessary for me and my relationship.

as for reasons for punishment, my Master will administer punishment if i have broken a long-standing rule, engaged in improper conduct (such as disrespectful speech, representing him poorly in public, etc.), repeatedly made the same mistake, caused him to be disappointed or upset, and of course for willful disobedience, which is not something that has ever happened and i don't really like to imagine the punishment for that one.

i remember belonging to an online M/s group years ago where one of the older (45+) slaves there would often say how she had only been punished once in the 10 years or however long of her slavery. of how she "knew better" than to do anything worthy of punishment again. well unfortunately, i have yet to reach such a level of perfection. i used to be punished quite frequently, maybe once a week or so, for the first 2-3 years of my slavery. i would forget to have my collar turned in the right direction, constantly be late when getting ready for an outing or event, neglect to wear my butt plug for the correct number of hours each night, make eye contact with other men, speak before spoken to, overcook the bacon and eggs, forget to always walk a few paces behind him, suck his cock improperly (there's a very specific way he likes it done, which took me a while to learn), neglect to refer to another Dominant as "Master SoandSo", fail to have all my chores completed in time, weigh 2 or 3 pounds over the limit he set, and on and on and on. all of these were/are punishable offences.

these days, i'm not punished nearly so much....maybe once every couple of months or so. and hopefully as time goes on they will come more and more infrequently. but he and i both know that i will never be perfect, i will continue to make mistakes for as long as i live. some may ask, why punish for honest mistakes, if a slave is genuinely making an effort? well there are three basic reasons: one, would be because any mistake or general flock-up of mine causes him displeasure, and it is only right that i suffer for that. another is that being made aware of my failures, and having to suffer the consequences for them...adds structure and stability to my life, and creates opportunity for growth and improvement. and lastly, like the typical sub/slave, when i have displeased my Master it creates a tremendous amount of guilt and shame, and a punishment helps to clear all of that away so we can move forward.

 

[BiBunny]

I find these threads really interesting, but I just can't see it ever working for me. My mother was one of those people who would fly off the handle about absolutely nothing. As a child, I learned to tiptoe around her crazy moods for fear of setting her off for reasons I didn't understand yet again. Being punished for something I didn't understand certainly didn't teach me to not do whatever it was again. I often felt like she was intentionally setting me up to fail, just so she could get mad at me. She still goes berserk about stupid things, but she knows better than to try to raise a hand to me now. I'm an adult; I can walk the fuck away.

For that reason, "punishment" and "manipulation" are tangled inexorably in my mind. I could never be involved in a relationship that used punishment at all. Intellectually, I see how it can work for others, but no. Hard limit. If I disappoint you, talk to me as an adult and an equal, and we'll see what I can do to set it right. I would never do something maliciously to a Dom/me I respected, anyway. If there were ever any indication of punishment, I'd walk away. That's just how I'm wired, and anyone I get involved with knows that beforehand.

That aside, it is well-documented that positive reinforcement is the best way to ensure that certain behaviors continue. Of course, it only works on willing subjects, but in the case of this analogy, I'll always be a willing subject. I admit that I need a lot of positive reinforcement, something else which I think stems from living with my mother for 18 years. I learned quickly that not doing something at all was better than doing it the "wrong" way. And, of course, she never told me what the "right" way was. When I'm confident I'm doing *whatever* the way you want it done, it'll always be done that way, no questions asked, unless you specifically request it another way.

Blech, I'm blabbering again. I just feel pretty strongly about this issue. I remember what it was like to feel like a helpless child, and I have no desire to repeat that in my adult relationships. I think I can see the appeal for others, though. I'm just on the outside looking in on this particular subject.

 

[serijules]

no, punishment is not necessary for a D/s relationship, it all depends on what works for the individual relationship dynamic and those involved. punishment is absolutely necessary for me and my relationship.

as for reasons for punishment, my Master will administer punishment if i have broken a long-standing rule, engaged in improper conduct (such as disrespectful speech, representing him poorly in public, etc.), repeatedly made the same mistake, caused him to be disappointed or upset, and of course for willful disobedience, which is not something that has ever happened and i don't really like to imagine the punishment for that one.

i remember belonging to an online M/s group years ago where one of the older (45+) slaves there would often say how she had only been punished once in the 10 years or however long of her slavery. of how she "knew better" than to do anything worthy of punishment again. well unfortunately, i have yet to reach such a level of perfection. i used to be punished quite frequently, maybe once a week or so, for the first 2-3 years of my slavery. i would forget to have my collar turned in the right direction, constantly be late when getting ready for an outing or event, neglect to wear my butt plug for the correct number of hours each night, make eye contact with other men, speak before spoken to, overcook the bacon and eggs, forget to always walk a few paces behind him, suck his cock improperly (there's a very specific way he likes it done, which took me a while to learn), neglect to refer to another Dominant as "Master SoandSo", fail to have all my chores completed in time, weigh 2 or 3 pounds over the limit he set, and on and on and on. all of these were/are punishable offences.

these days, i'm not punished nearly so much....maybe once every couple of months or so. and hopefully as time goes on they will come more and more infrequently. but he and i both know that i will never be perfect, i will continue to make mistakes for as long as i live. some may ask, why punish for honest mistakes, if a slave is genuinely making an effort? well there are three basic reasons: one, would be because any mistake or general flock-up of mine causes him displeasure, and it is only right that i suffer for that. another is that being made aware of my failures, and having to suffer the consequences for them...adds structure and stability to my life, and creates opportunity for growth and improvement. and lastly, like the typical sub/slave, when i have displeased my Master it creates a tremendous amount of guilt and shame, and a punishment helps to clear all of that away so we can move forward.

Good post osg. I can relate muchly. My own instances of punishment grow fewer and farer between the longer I am with her.

 

[DVS]

It's sometimes sad when these older threads are brought back up, and many of the original posters have gone. But, I guess that's just one of the basics for a forum website such as this. People will come, and after a time, they will go. But, it seems strange arguing a point, when the counter position is no longer there.

I'd forgotten how this thread had taken a side step in the early pages. I think my post might have been kind of a caytalist in that. But, the word punishment, for me, has a very strong dual meaning. There is the real life meaning, and there is the "playtime" meaning.

The real life meaning of the word has very little use to me, because I don't believe in it in that sense. Not that I don't see how others could and do punish for real life misdeads or whatever, but that's just not me. I never intended for my interpetation of the word punishment, and how I use it in BDSM, to be considered as changing the meaning of the word, in any way.

But, we have had, and still do have, posters here that take things very literally, so watching what one says, and how one says it, can often save a flaming scene. LOL...that, would be close to what I'd see as punishment. Someone misunderstanding and jumping into a confrontation for no reason, other than the misunderstanding's sake.

I strongly believe in first making sure someone understands what was said and why, before going off half cocked about taking Websters on over a word definition. It has a lot to do with how you look at things. Many people see things in life as literal. I see nothing wrong with that, except when you meet up with someone like me who takes things in life with a touch of humor and a little twist. I was brought up to not take myself, as well as life too seriously. Taking yourself too seriously can cause ulcers and high blood pressure, as well as the ever possible thread flame.

Don't get me wrong. I totally understand what was said in the early pages of this thread and also agree that changing the definition of words is actually dangerous. But, then we also end up with hyphenated words, or words "in quotes", and sometimes we feel the need to add the word play in front of it, to make sure those reading what we say will understand.

I think we all understand what play rape means, but there was once a thread that became rather heated, where some posters took great issue with anyone saying rape should be used as play. I agree with that mindset, but it goes back to the use of words as what they are...tools in life to communicate our opinions with others. If there's no communication, what's the use of a forum such as this?

The reality is this. The word punishment has a meaning, and for public use, that meaning should never change. As with the meaning of rape, words such as these should always have a defined meaning. But, we live in a world of many personalities and lifestyles, as well as religions and beliefs. In fact, the latter could be seen as a basis of a lot of the world's unrest, today.

If we go through live misunderstood, there will always be those ready to flame us. We live life in a certain way, because we have beliefs. If someone steps on those beliefs, we often get upset. To use a phrase that seems too often necessary..*****'s too short to get upset over some things. Let it go.

Now, for my purposes, maybe I should add the word play in front of punishment, because I'm not one to punish in real life. I see any partner I'd be with as an individual with a mind of her own. It she didn't have one, and use it, she wouldn't be with me. I like someone with a brain. No offense to the bimbos out there, so I don't want any bimbos flaming me over that.

And it could be that I've never been in, and don't really want to be in a 24/7 relationship. I see that as more of a Master/slave thing, where there are definite lines of control. Punishment...the real meaning of the word...could be part of this relationshp, if the one in control sees the necessity for it.

But, I'm into BDSM for the kinky sex, and the power play, and the mental image it brings to mind. The bondage, the struggle of two minds, the hightened sensual awareness, the fever of lust and then the enormous satisfaction as it all melts together in the erotic sense.

The power of one over the other, both mentally and physically, to inflict pain or pleasure, with the ultimate communal goal of mutual sexual satisfaction. Me, the one with the power, and the submissive, the one struggling with how I might use it to my advantage to take her to a certain level of sexual fever with a certain kind and amount of stimulation. Then to lower that stimulation level, take it away, or exchange it for another form of stimulation, to confuse her mind, because her body wants to want to continue in one direction. If any of you have read my stories, there is one that uses this form of play as a story line. I call it my "1 to 10" game.

This is continued until I decide it's time to allow her release. Sure, it's part pain play and part orgasm denial. But, it's also mental torment, too. And, there is a part of it that could be considered...dare I use the word in this sense?...punishment, because it is punishing, both mentally and phsyically for the submissive to go through this process. And, it's a great sexual stimulant for me to have this power and control and to watch her reactions and struggles during all of this...um...punishment.

BUT, and this is a very strong but...because it's not used as a corrective measure, but as a tool for my use "in play", in part because of the meaning of the word itself brings up sexual thoughts, (i.e. childhood punishments, perhaps) and I think is part of the reason I enjoy D/s, and in part, because of what the submissive goes through in the process of the scene, I guess I'll have to add the word "play" in front from now on, when I speak of punishment, as I use it. For sure, I don't want the Websters dictionary police to come knocking at my door!

 

[serijules]

Now, for my purposes, maybe I should add the word play in front of punishment, because I'm not one to punish in real life. I see any partner I'd be with as an individual with a mind of her own. It she didn't have one, and use it, she wouldn't be with me. I like someone with a brain. No offense to the bimbos out there, so I don't want any bimbos flaming me over that.

You are, for all intents and purposes, calling anyone that DOES use punishment or get punished (in what they feel is a real sense rather than play) a non-individual bimbo with no mind of her own.

Wouldn't it be easier, more accurate and a hell of a lot more respectful to simply say "Now, for my purposes, maybe I should add the word play in front of punishment, because I'm not one to punish in real life." and leave the rest out?

A LOT of people that I otherwise respect on this board do this, and it never fails to baffle me. Adding the cutesy little version of "but that's just MY opinion and no offense to all those I just took a pot shot at..." thing at the end doesn't make it any less of a disrespectful and judgemental statement. I find that very disheartening.

If I'm totally misunderstanding you here, please say so. It's known to happen, LOL

 

[DVS]

You are, for all intents and purposes, calling anyone that DOES use punishment or get punished (in what they feel is a real sense rather than play) a non-individual bimbo with no mind of her own.

Wouldn't it be easier, more accurate and a hell of a lot more respectful to simply say "Now, for my purposes, maybe I should add the word play in front of punishment, because I'm not one to punish in real life." and leave the rest out?

A LOT of people that I otherwise respect on this board do this, and it never fails to baffle me. Adding the cutesy little version of "but that's just MY opinion and no offense to all those I just took a pot shot at..." thing at the end doesn't make it any less of a disrespectful and judgemental statement. I find that very disheartening.

If I'm totally misunderstanding you here, please say so. It's known to happen, LOL

You just can't win, sometimes. No, I didn't mean that. I knew I should have left that little bit of dry humor out of my post.

The very next paragraph mentions where I do see where it could be an option for someone, living in a more involved M/s relationship, but it's just not for me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Maybe, in the future I'll have to put my dry humor in quotes, too?

 

[serijules]

Maybe, in the future I'll have to put my dry humor in quotes, too?

Probably!

I've never been one to see humour easily. Rather a downfall on message boards, but luckily I'm not easily offended, just easily confused.

I'll stand by one comment in that reply though....wouldn't it be easier to just leave out the snarky/dry humour/sarcastic comments and just say what you really mean?

Rhetorical question.

 

[DVS]

Probably!

I've never been one to see humour easily. Rather a downfall on message boards, but luckily I'm not easily offended, just easily confused.

I'll stand by one comment in that reply though....wouldn't it be easier to just leave out the snarky/dry humour/sarcastic comments and just say what you really mean?

Rhetorical question.

I don't easily take offense. And, knowing you don't go that route, I knew you were just trying to understand.

And, because I'm a snarky/dry humor/sarcastic kind of guy, I have to answer this rhetorical question. It's just a part of me. It's so much a part of me, I had to add it to my signature line about four years ago.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Probably!

I've never been one to see humour easily. Rather a downfall on message boards, but luckily I'm not easily offended, just easily confused.

I'll stand by one comment in that reply though....wouldn't it be easier to just leave out the snarky/dry humour/sarcastic comments and just say what you really mean?

Rhetorical question.

seri, i hear ya, and you're not the only one who doesn't easily "get" humor. i tend to take people literally, and assume that someone means what they say, especially if it's in a dry or seemingly serious tone (and of course tone can be hard as heck to discern on the internet). Daddy teases me about this all the time...he amuses himself to no end joking around with me and then watching me react as if he were serious, and then laughing and saying "god you're sooo easy!" lol. oh well, i'll be the first to admit i take life too seriously sometimes, i'll just consider it one of my charms.

 

[ownedsubgal]

That aside, it is well-documented that positive reinforcement is the best way to ensure that certain behaviors continue.

i've heard this before, and don't doubt it's truth for most, but positive reinforcement alone would never be effective for someone like me. of course it's nice to receive genuine praise and have it pointed out when i've done something well or especially pleasing, but the fact is that to always receive a pat on the back for simply doing what as a slave i'm supposed to do anyway would not foster an environment of growth or respect. it's punishment that keeps me alert, on my toes, prevents me from growing overly comfortable and relaxed, and pushes me to succeed where i would otherwise fail, out of fear of his displeasure and fear of the consequences of such. and this fear also serves to add immensely to the respect i have for him as my Owner and controller of my destiny.

 

[serijules]

i've heard this before, and don't doubt it's truth for most, but positive reinforcement alone would never be effective for someone like me. of course it's nice to receive genuine praise and have it pointed out when i've done something well or especially pleasing, but the fact is that to always receive a pat on the back for simply doing what as a slave i'm supposed to do anyway would not foster an environment of growth or respect. it's punishment that keeps me alert, on my toes, prevents me from growing overly comfortable and relaxed, and pushes me to succeed where i would otherwise fail, out of fear of his displeasure and fear of the consequences of such. and this fear also serves to add immensely to the respect i have for him as my Owner and controller of my destiny.

This is how it works for me too. Ma'am is polite in general, and even when ordering me to fetch her something or if I do something I'm supposed to do, she will often thank me. It actually makes me uncomfortable! Not that I don't love praise and gratitude, but when I'm doing the job I'm supposed to be doing and she thanks me for it, I feel...I'm not sure. I just feel a bit odd. Kind of like when people give me compliments and I suddenly feel self conscious. I've never been good at taking compliments.

I love praise when I write a good story that entertains her, or do something unexpected that pleases her. When I'm just doing what I'm meant to be doing though, if I get praised every time, it will probably go to my head and I'll get lazy. WORKING for that praise rather than growing used to it is a better motivation for me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

i've heard this before, and don't doubt it's truth for most, but positive reinforcement alone would never be effective for someone like me. of course it's nice to receive genuine praise and have it pointed out when i've done something well or especially pleasing, but the fact is that to always receive a pat on the back for simply doing what as a slave i'm supposed to do anyway would not foster an environment of growth or respect. it's punishment that keeps me alert, on my toes, prevents me from growing overly comfortable and relaxed, and pushes me to succeed where i would otherwise fail, out of fear of his displeasure and fear of the consequences of such. and this fear also serves to add immensely to the respect i have for him as my Owner and controller of my destiny.

I'm with you in this. I think positive reinforcement is an excellent choice when raising young children, but even then it can lose it's power once those children become teens and develop more of a personality and opinion than previously. I also think it works better for people who thrive on attention or being accepted more so than those who can walk to the beat of their own drum without need for approval so to speak. In D/s, for many it can result in complacency, frustration, disrespect, etc., if it is the only form of how the final goal is achieved. I also think there are some things which may be expected that just are not going to be possible through positive reinforcement alone....sometimes a little (or more) fear can achieve the success positive reinforcement would leave seriously wanting. Of course, many do not expect nor want to set difficult tasks in which case positive reinforcement may work. For us it just wouldn't.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I've always related to Eb completely on this and I think this is a girls vs. boys issue to some degree. I don't do punishment, I do get it right or get out, at least in terms of M/s. This isn't a cruel existence of pins and needles and oh no might I get tossed for H, it's more one of the spirit of the law. I've never known him to not want to get it right. Failure to do that is normally a failure of communication or providing needed tools for the job on my part. If I want to be cruel to the man, that's prerogative, not punishment, and it happens whenever I want. I've never had to adjust his behavior more than saying "I want you to do this next time not that." And there's always marked improvement, maybe he's just really that good.

I don't fawn over H completing my expectations, positive reinforcement can be as subtle as you get to do that again tomorrow, lucky you.

A lot of this also is a facet of living out, too though, I think. My presence, even after 3-4 years is a reward in itself - there's no taking it for granted at all, it's something that can and will be removed if I'm not pleased, no, really.

 

[BiBunny]

I've always related to Eb completely on this and I think this is a girls vs. boys issue to some degree. I don't do punishment, I do get it right or get out, at least in terms of M/s. This isn't a cruel existence of pins and needles and oh no might I get tossed for H, it's more one of the spirit of the law. I've never known him to not want to get it right. Failure to do that is normally a failure of communication or providing needed tools for the job on my part. If I want to be cruel to the man, that's prerogative, not punishment, and it happens whenever I want.

Is it so hard to imagine that someone might want to be obedient without the threat of "punishment," I wonder? Maybe it's my mostly male brain, but I function more like your H does. I want to do right without the threat of "OMG, Master's gonna beat my ass if I don't do this to the letter" hanging over my head. If I fuck up, it was a genuine accident on my part.

To me, having my ass whipped for making an effort--even if the end result wasn't what was desired--is the anti-thesis of actually getting me to cooperate. I've already explained why I am the way I am about it. Living with my mother, I did learn that it was better not to do something than risk her wrath for doing it incorrectly. If someone I was in a relationship acted the same way, then I'd walk. *Shrug*

I want to be good. I don't need to be coerced or forced or threatened or anything. If I respect you, I'll do my best to do as you ask, whether I like it or not. It's not that big a deal to me.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm with you in this. I think positive reinforcement is an excellent choice when raising young children, but even then it can lose it's power once those children become teens and develop more of a personality and opinion than previously. I also think it works better for people who thrive on attention or being accepted more so than those who can walk to the beat of their own drum without need for approval so to speak. In D/s, for many it can result in complacency, frustration, disrespect, etc., if it is the only form of how the final goal is achieved. I also think there are some things which may be expected that just are not going to be possible through positive reinforcement alone....sometimes a little (or more) fear can achieve the success positive reinforcement would leave seriously wanting. Of course, many do not expect nor want to set difficult tasks in which case positive reinforcement may work. For us it just wouldn't.

Catalina

Huh, I definitely use a mix of positive and negative reinforcement with my kid. Mostly positive, but sometimes ya just gotta say no.

I'm certainly no expert, but it would seem to me that an important common factor amongst you, seri and osg is that you're slaves. Of course, there are varying definitions of slave on this board and in bdsm, but positive reinforcement and property don't seem to immediately go hand in hand.

 

[Netzach]

Is it so hard to imagine that someone might want to be obedient without the threat of "punishment," I wonder? Maybe it's my mostly male brain, but I function more like your H does. I want to do right without the threat of "OMG, Master's gonna beat my ass if I don't do this to the letter" hanging over my head. If I fuck up, it was a genuine accident on my part.

To me, having my ass whipped for making an effort--even if the end result wasn't what was desired--is the anti-thesis of actually getting me to cooperate. I've already explained why I am the way I am about it. Living with my mother, I did learn that it was better not to do something than risk her wrath for doing it incorrectly. If someone I was in a relationship acted the same way, then I'd walk. *Shrug*

I want to be good. I don't need to be coerced or forced or threatened or anything. If I respect you, I'll do my best to do as you ask, whether I like it or not. It's not that big a deal to me.

I grew up in similar circumstances, maybe this is why it makes sense. I was never punished in any normal sense of the word, merely pushed my mom till she couldn't take it anymore and lashed out at me, there was never any sense of "this is what you did wrong this is why you're being hit." That's as foreign to me as outer space, really. To me it's liberating to be in a situation where I'm hitting someone because I damn well feel like it, and not because they disappointed me, they're failing me, they did ANYTHING for it to reflect on them. One of my favorite things to do is to say or do something outrageously mean and to then to remind him "It's not about you, asshole." That's both a torment and a key to the bondage, in a way - it's not about YOU because it's about ME, yes, but it's also not about YOU so it's not your worry/problem/fault.

I'm also Jewish. Job is in my cosmology, even if I'm not religious.

 

[serijules]

Is it so hard to imagine that someone might want to be obedient without the threat of "punishment," I wonder? Maybe it's my mostly male brain, but I function more like your H does. I want to do right without the threat of "OMG, Master's gonna beat my ass if I don't do this to the letter" hanging over my head. If I fuck up, it was a genuine accident on my part.

No, not hard to imagine at all. It's really as simple as different strokes for different folks. I'm not sure why this thread has such a strong "prove my point" vibe, kind of making me feel weird as I'm wondering if I'm somehow giving off vibes of trying to force how it works for me on everyone else, as I'm kind of GETTING that vibe from others. LOL

I know this isn't directed at me, so I'm just answering in a thought-process-sharing kind of way, not a debate...

Ma'am rarely has to punish me anymore either. She corrects me often, as Netz says, and I simply fix the mistake. I certainly want to please her and most people that meet us in person comment to her how extremely well behaved, polite and on the ball I am. I take PRIDE in that. I strive to grow on my own, I don't need her pushing me every step of the way, be it praise or correction. She expects that, and I give it.

But...sometimes the dynamic is stronger, edgier, deeper...and it goes further. We benefit from the release of it and we benefit from the stronger structure of punishment. The meaning or method is only important and valid to us. Thus, we use it in the relationship. Sometimes she doesn't feel like simply correcting me. Sometimes she feels like beating the snot out of me for it, be it minor or major. That's ok. I have no past history that makes that a negative thing for me, so I accept it and find a way to turn it into yet another opportunity to grow from it.

No reason at all punishment or lack thereof should be considered an insult to any type of relationship. It's a choice, like smoking or non, decaf or regular. Do you wipe from front to back or back to front?

To each their own. WHY it works or doesn't work for each person is to me, very interesting, yet really seems to get people feeling defensive. I think if we could put aside that defensiveness in general somehow, this topic would flow a lot smoother for everyone.

 

[serijules]

I grew up in similar circumstances, maybe this is why it makes sense. I was never punished in any normal sense of the word, merely pushed my mom till she couldn't take it anymore and lashed out at me, there was never any sense of "this is what you did wrong this is why you're being hit." That's as foreign to me as outer space, really.

Oddly enough, for ME....I was never punished growing up either, but that is a large part of the reason why it works for me now. It's straight forward and when it's done, it's done. None of this walking on eggshells, hiding emotions, lashing out well after the fact thing. That is really the very naked core of why punishment works for me when connecting my past self with my current.

 

[Netzach]

Oddly enough, for ME....I was never punished growing up either, but that is a large part of the reason why it works for me now. It's straight forward and when it's done, it's done. None of this walking on eggshells, hiding emotions, lashing out well after the fact thing. That is really the very naked core of why punishment works for me when connecting my past self with my current.

I think that's totally cool. I think a lot of that kind of catharsis is stuff that we just get at in other ways, ways that work better in my own mind because of who I am and how I operate.

I just think that people are missing the nuances of what can be "positive reinforcement" as much as people are missing the nuances of what can be "punishment." My bet is that no one likes to feel totally infantilized, and for some people punishment is icky and infantilizing and for other people "positive reinforcement" in the way of rewards or thanks is that. But neither has to be globally.

This subject brings up strong reactions because I don't think it's one of the ones we can really separate from how we were parented or misparented or not parented. I'm a lot like Bunny - my efforts being spat in my face are an absolute walking-point dealbreaker. The only way I feel right about a mistake is being able to correct it and not repeat it, random acts of penance in relation to it do not clear my air, they simply choke me on guilt.

 

[BiBunny]

I think that's totally cool. I think a lot of that kind of catharsis is stuff that we just get at in other ways, ways that work better in my own mind because of who I am and how I operate.

I just think that people are missing the nuances of what can be "positive reinforcement" as much as people are missing the nuances of what can be "punishment." My bet is that no one likes to feel totally infantilized, and for some people punishment is icky and infantilizing and for other people "positive reinforcement" in the way of rewards or thanks is that. But neither has to be globally.

This subject brings up strong reactions because I don't think it's one of the ones we can really separate from how we were parented or misparented or not parented. I'm a lot like Bunny - my efforts being spat in my face are an absolute walking-point dealbreaker. The only way I feel right about a mistake is being able to correct it and not repeat it, random acts of penance in relation to it do not clear my air, they simply choke me on guilt.

Thank you for this. It's what I was trying to say, only way more eloquent.

I wasn't trying to offend with what I said about punishment earlier. But I'm further reminded of why I don't like to participate in serious discussions around here anymore.

 

[intothewoods]

...
I just think that people are missing the nuances of what can be "positive reinforcement" as much as people are missing the nuances of what can be "punishment." My bet is that no one likes to feel totally infantilized, and for some people punishment is icky and infantilizing and for other people "positive reinforcement" in the way of rewards or thanks is that. But neither has to be globally.

This subject brings up strong reactions because I don't think it's one of the ones we can really separate from how we were parented or misparented or not parented. I'm a lot like Bunny - my efforts being spat in my face are an absolute walking-point dealbreaker. The only way I feel right about a mistake is being able to correct it and not repeat it, random acts of penance in relation to it do not clear my air, they simply choke me on guilt.

Yeah, it occured to me the other day that my reaction to punishment is, eegads no, I'm NOT a child! But then...I do like a little "good girl" now and again. You're right. They both can be infantilizing.

I was never punished with physical discipline, fwiw. I *did* get a lot of positive reinforcement. I was, in fact, a good girl. I experience that cathartic relief when he praises me, because it reminds me of simpler times and an uncomplicated life. Physical punishment - true punishment - would just be like wtf to my brain. Totally foreign.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Is it so hard to imagine that someone might want to be obedient without the threat of "punishment," I wonder? Maybe it's my mostly male brain, but I function more like your H does. I want to do right without the threat of "OMG, Master's gonna beat my ass if I don't do this to the letter" hanging over my head. If I fuck up, it was a genuine accident on my part.

To me, having my ass whipped for making an effort--even if the end result wasn't what was desired--is the anti-thesis of actually getting me to cooperate. I've already explained why I am the way I am about it. Living with my mother, I did learn that it was better not to do something than risk her wrath for doing it incorrectly. If someone I was in a relationship acted the same way, then I'd walk. *Shrug*

i can totally get how that works for you and those like you Bunny, re: being punished for making a sincere effort actually pushing you away. in my world, being punished for mistakes, even minor ones, helps me grow and strive to do better. when my Master punishes me, it's because he knows that i am capable of more. He's not saying "oh you miserable f*ck up, you can never do anything right" (which is exactly how i used to take it in the early days), but rather "i want better, expect better, because i know you're a good slave and fully capable of better."

also as Catalina mentioned, for some s-types (myself being among them) a relationship or life totally devoid of the threat of punishment or some sort of direct negative consequence for misbehavior, mistakes, or general slip-ups, can lead to complacency. basically feeling a little bit too cozy and comfy in your slave seat...this starts to happen with me when i've gone through a period where i've received too much praise or affection, and no "scary" stuff....punishment, degradation, abuse, etc. not that i become lazy or disobedient, but i'm definitely a bit too....laidback. i'm more likely to slip-up in those times with the little everyday things, like the time when i jokingly said to him "well duhh", or when i had the toilet paper under instead of over. my mouth and backside suffered considerably for those incidents, and that's what i need to help keep me 100% in check.