Punishment

[BiBunny]

i can totally get how that works for you and those like you Bunny, re: being punished for making a sincere effort actually pushing you away. in my world, being punished for mistakes, even minor ones, helps me grow and strive to do better. when my Master punishes me, it's because he knows that i am capable of more. He's not saying "oh you miserable f*ck up, you can never do anything right" (which is exactly how i used to take it in the early days), but rather "i want better, expect better, because i know you're a good slave and fully capable of better."

also as Catalina mentioned, for some s-types (myself being among them) a relationship or life totally devoid of the threat of punishment or some sort of direct negative consequence for misbehavior, mistakes, or general slip-ups, can lead to complacency. basically feeling a little bit too cozy and comfy in your slave seat...this starts to happen with me when i've gone through a period where i've received too much praise or affection, and no "scary" stuff....punishment, degradation, abuse, etc. not that i become lazy or disobedient, but i'm definitely a bit too....laidback. i'm more likely to slip-up in those times with the little everyday things, like the time when i jokingly said to him "well duhh", or when i had the toilet paper under instead of over. my mouth and backside suffered considerably for those incidents, and that's what i need to help keep me 100% in check.

Ok, that makes more sense now. I still couldn't do it that way, but it makes more sense. Thank you.

I think I'm one of those people who does best when I am comfortable in my role. I've never liked the feeling of walking on eggshells, for whatever reason. I tend to crave abuse, humiliation, degradation, whathaveyou way past the point of my own comfort, but I need to know that the dominant person in question is doing it because he or she WANTS to, rather than in connection with some transgression on my part. For some reason, probably my upbringing, I have "punishment" and "manipulation" all tangled up in my mind.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Huh, I definitely use a mix of positive and negative reinforcement with my kid. Mostly positive, but sometimes ya just gotta say no.

I'm certainly no expert, but it would seem to me that an important common factor amongst you, seri and osg is that you're slaves. Of course, there are varying definitions of slave on this board and in bdsm, but positive reinforcement and property don't seem to immediately go hand in hand.

Partly true, though I don't think it is as simple as that. I get lots of positive reinforcement, but I also live within a relationship which moves more and more into the realms of darkness where no amount of joy at the thought of pleasing can get me to the point of wilfully jumping into an ordered task simply because it is beyond the level of tasks which can be so easily contemplated and executed for pleasing factor alone. I know osg is also at times in such a position and while it is what I want and chose in my own way, it is also beyond what most would consider acceptable and requires something greater than the ick, disgust or abhorrance factor to get one there. Also as osg says, being punished is in its own way positive in that is shows not only that F knows and believes I can do better, but also reinforces the difference in our roles and shows he is interested and not simply ready to switch off the moment I make a mistake or have difficulty. For me that is important. On a couple of occasions when he is feeling below par he has chosen to forgive or simply overlook a transgression with the end result being I became depressed and convinced he really didn't feel I was worth the effort of his doing whatever it takes to get me where we both want me to be. I cannot exist in a vaccuum whereby I am left feeling my obedience is not of enough importance for him to demand its existance, but that is also part of who I am as a person and how I function as a slave as opposed to the free woman I was before whereby it was my choice whether I did something which was expected or desired.

I am all for being an obedient slave, but there are just some things where no amount of wishing or intending to be obedient can transcend into immediate obedience...as for the pleasure of pleasing, that too has limits whereby pleasing does not seem to be worth or balance the challenge of what is presented. I have no idea how I would manage it in a relationship which was not 24/7 face to face....actually I do, I likely would not continue with that relationship as it would not have enough power or attraction for me to see it as worth all the risks, angst and difficulties. If I were in what seems to cover most D/s relationships in terms of tasks and orders assigned, level of commitment and options, by all means, positive reinforcement and/or knowing my obedience pleased would be more than enough to reach the point of perfect obedience at all times.

Catalina:catroar

 

[serijules]

I wasn't trying to offend with what I said about punishment earlier. But I'm further reminded of why I don't like to participate in serious discussions around here anymore.

Why? I didn't get the impression you offended anyone, my reply was just furthering the discussion. My comments on defensiveness were in general...this topic DOES seem to make people feel defensive and sometimes I don't understand why, mostly because I find the topic fascinating. That's all.

 

[catalina_francisco]

To each their own. WHY it works or doesn't work for each person is to me, very interesting, yet really seems to get people feeling defensive. I think if we could put aside that defensiveness in general somehow, this topic would flow a lot smoother for everyone.

Have to agree, for this and many topics that come up here. We have all had our moments where we have felt a need to be defensive, though not always realised it at that precise moment. Triggers are difficult to overcome, but with recognition and time they can be controlled to allow for an open exchange of information and experiences which celebrate diversity.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

Why? I didn't get the impression you offended anyone, my reply was just furthering the discussion. My comments on defensiveness were in general...this topic DOES seem to make people feel defensive and sometimes I don't understand why, mostly because I find the topic fascinating. That's all.

*Sigh* Hard to explain. Not sure if it's a symptom of a greater problem or my own innate paranoia.

I find the topic fascinating as well, 'specially when people explain why such-and-such works for them.

 

[serijules]

*Sigh* Hard to explain. Not sure if it's a symptom of a greater problem or my own innate paranoia.

I find the topic fascinating as well, 'specially when people explain why such-and-such works for them.

Well if you wanna try, I'd listen. I think your input is always valuable.

 

[JMohegan]

My high school coach was a screamer and a punisher, big time. He punished for all kinds of infractions - some intentional, most not. We feared him and respected his power. We tried to win games, because it's awesome to win.

My college coach did not believe in punishing players. He had rules and expected them to be followed, period - and they were. Both on and off the field, his word was law. We revered him then, and we revere him now. We tried just as hard as we possibly could, because we *desperately* wanted to make him proud.

My college coach was a man of incredible character, honor, charisma, sense, and style. It wasn't the absence of punishment that made us revere him. The reverence came as a natural response to the man himself.

If JM comes back to this thread, I have a question about this quote:



Can you give me some examples of guidelines (i.e., not the stuff of detailed rules, protocols, etc.)? As someone who is now fairly freaked out by anything that remotely smacks of micromanagement, I am in the position of all bets are off, and then dipping my toe in a bit of D/s and finding, ooh look, that works for everyone concerned. So I cautiously consider areas which might work further on down the road.

Also, I still have trouble reconciling punishment in a relationship that is a partnership. You used the word partnership yourself - does or did this ever trouble you?

There are many partnerships (personal, business, legal, whatever) in which the partners have unequal rights or power. I don't consider the two words to be irreconcilable at all.

Nevertheless, punishment is not a dynamic that interests me. Perhaps this is because of my experience with coaches, as described above.

The closest I would ever come to punishment (as it is commonly discussed on this board) would take place during the "exploring D/s but not yet ready to commit" phase of the relationship, and it would take the form of a correction accompanied by a talk on the subject of: "I know this is different from conventional relationships, and it takes getting used to, but this really *is* what I expect, now try again" type of thing.

As for your initial question, I'll use a non-living-together example, since this is the case for you with Mister Man.

Guidelines, to me, would be something like: In the absence of work or child responsibilities, you agree to come when I call & do what I say, any time night or day. In contrast, detailed rules/protocols would be: You agree to show up at my house every Wednesday at 7 and Saturday at 6, dressed in X, standing like Y, waiting for me to appear at which time you'll do Z, etc.

 

[Netzach]

My high school coach was a screamer and a punisher, big time. He punished for all kinds of infractions - some intentional, most not. We feared him and respected his power. We tried to win games, because it's awesome to win.

My college coach did not believe in punishing players. He had rules and expected them to be followed, period - and they were. Both on and off the field, his word was law. We revered him then, and we revere him now. We tried just as hard as we possibly could, because we *desperately* wanted to make him proud.

My college coach was a man of incredible character, honor, charisma, sense, and style. It wasn't the absence of punishment that made us revere him. The reverence came as a natural response to the man himself..

This is the principle on which I operate. I don't know if I'm that spotless a character, but I have a certain je ne sais quoi, I guess, in H's eyes that makes it all good.

If he doesn't feel it no amount of torture and threat is going to make him feel it and I don't want it any other way. I don't think my expectations are that low and I don't think I'm easy on people I'm in love with let alone people I own. I just hold my expectations and when they're not respected and not shared then there IS no M/s. I feel like punishment as a relational condition is one of those things that's set up to manipulate me into a set of expected responses. I don't operate that way. That is, I suppose, a reasonable response to expect from me, so in that regard, I'm totally consistent.

But I also have so much overexposure to so many things via having been pro that my personal needs are pretty wack, in some ways. I really REALLY have a paranoia about being manipulated or bought or constructed that a lot of people don't have as baggage. The usefulness of punishment is something that's probably more accessible to a lot of people who haven't indulged in the "punish me" of other people as much.

 

[serijules]

But I also have so much overexposure to so many things via having been pro that my personal needs are pretty wack, in some ways. I really REALLY have a paranoia about being manipulated or bought or constructed that a lot of people don't have as baggage. The usefulness of punishment is something that's probably more accessible to a lot of people who haven't indulged in the "punish me" of other people as much.

I can imagine. When I first ventured out into the "real world" of BDSM it was into a spanking group because at the time, spanking was my pain interest. However, mixed in with that scene was a LOT of brats. I really hated bratting and found it very manipulative and uncomfortable, even though it was a much loved part of that scene by many. I had a hard time being lighthearted and playful in any manner because I was so paranoid about it being seen as bratting. It got to be so bad that every single scene I saw had this long drawn out bratty process proceeding it, which didn't mesh with my straight forward, communicative method.

I've come to the point with Ma'am now where I can be more relaxed and fun and fool around and know it won't be seen as manipulative or bratty, but all in good fun.

 

[BiBunny]

This is the principle on which I operate. I don't know if I'm that spotless a character, but I have a certain je ne sais quoi, I guess, in H's eyes that makes it all good.

If he doesn't feel it no amount of torture and threat is going to make him feel it and I don't want it any other way. I don't think my expectations are that low and I don't think I'm easy on people I'm in love with let alone people I own. I just hold my expectations and when they're not respected and not shared then there IS no M/s. I feel like punishment as a relational condition is one of those things that's set up to manipulate me into a set of expected responses. I don't operate that way. That is, I suppose, a reasonable response to expect from me, so in that regard, I'm totally consistent.

But I also have so much overexposure to so many things via having been pro that my personal needs are pretty wack, in some ways. I really REALLY have a paranoia about being manipulated or bought or constructed that a lot of people don't have as baggage. The usefulness of punishment is something that's probably more accessible to a lot of people who haven't indulged in the "punish me" of other people as much.

Maybe you should just start talking for me on this subject, since we share the same thoughts, and you express it way better than I do.

 

[intothewoods]

There are many partnerships (personal, business, legal, whatever) in which the partners have unequal rights or power. I don't consider the two words to be irreconcilable at all.

I know, but an unequal partnership is still quite different from one person having complete control over another. I can, however, see punishment-as-catharsis having a place in a partnership-type of relationship. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Nevertheless, punishment is not a dynamic that interests me. Perhaps this is because of my experience with coaches, as described above.

The closest I would ever come to punishment (as it is commonly discussed on this board) would take place during the "exploring D/s but not yet ready to commit" phase of the relationship, and it would take the form of a correction accompanied by a talk on the subject of: "I know this is different from conventional relationships, and it takes getting used to, but this really *is* what I expect, now try again" type of thing.

As for your initial question, I'll use a non-living-together example, since this is the case for you with Mister Man.

Guidelines, to me, would be something like: In the absence of work or child responsibilities, you agree to come when I call & do what I say, any time night or day. In contrast, detailed rules/protocols would be: You agree to show up at my house every Wednesday at 7 and Saturday at 6, dressed in X, standing like Y, waiting for me to appear at which time you'll do Z, etc.

Thanks...I understand the difference. I was wondering more about areas - do you sit down and say, okay, clothing, your body, and how my food is prepared - in. Your bank account - out. But never mind, I was just thinking aloud. Obviously, he and I will just have to figure out what the boundaries are.

 

[intothewoods]

I can imagine. When I first ventured out into the "real world" of BDSM it was into a spanking group because at the time, spanking was my pain interest. However, mixed in with that scene was a LOT of brats. I really hated bratting and found it very manipulative and uncomfortable, even though it was a much loved part of that scene by many. I had a hard time being lighthearted and playful in any manner because I was so paranoid about it being seen as bratting. It got to be so bad that every single scene I saw had this long drawn out bratty process proceeding it, which didn't mesh with my straight forward, communicative method.

I've come to the point with Ma'am now where I can be more relaxed and fun and fool around and know it won't be seen as manipulative or bratty, but all in good fun.

Sometimes when I try to figure out who's really in control in some bdsm scenarios, it makes my head spin.

 

[callinectes]

I operate like Bunny, I am at my best when I feel comfortable and don't have the looming shadow of punishment hanging over my head. To be fair though, my relationship is more relaxed than many others here. Certainly there are expectations I must live up to, but I am not required to use a specific honorific, he does not insert himself into my financial matters (though I do ask his advice at times), I can and do say things like "duh" or call him an aggravating damn yankee in jest.

 

[serijules]

Sometimes when I try to figure out who's really in control in some bdsm scenarios, it makes my head spin.

I agree. Yes another reason why I love the crystal clear boundaries in my relationship.

 

[JMohegan]

I can and do say things like "duh" or call him an aggravating damn yankee in jest.

A buddy of mine married a woman from North Carolina who calls me "damn yankee" all the time.

Somehow the combination of her smile, and this adorable lilt thing she's got goin' on, scrambles "damn yankee" into "you're magnificent" in my head.

 

[serijules]

I can and do say things like "duh" or call him an aggravating damn yankee in jest.

I can joke and tease and jest with the best of them, I just have to do it respectfully, LOL.

It's an acquired skill, what can I say.

 

[Netzach]

Let it be known that I love a joke at my own expense. It's not a problem here. I know disrespect when I get it.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I can joke and tease and jest with the best of them, I just have to do it respectfully, LOL.

It's an acquired skill, what can I say.

yes it certainly is! sometimes i shy away from joking and teasing around with him because i'm afraid i'll cross that line. although he knows i never intend any disrespect, i'm not supposed to ever speak to him the way i would speak to a peer/equal. so "duh" is definitely dead and buried...my jaw still tingles thinking about that one.
but i am allowed to refer to his awesome pecs as "manboobies" and to call him "playa playaaaaaa" when i catch him pimp walking or checking himself out in the mirror lol.

 

[Netzach]

yes it certainly is! sometimes i shy away from joking and teasing around with him because i'm afraid i'll cross that line. although he knows i never intend any disrespect, i'm not supposed to ever speak to him the way i would speak to a peer/equal. so "duh" is definitely dead and buried...my jaw still tingles thinking about that one.
but i am allowed to refer to his awesome pecs as "manboobies" and to call him "playa playaaaaaa" when i catch him pimp walking or checking himself out in the mirror lol.

That is insanely cute.

 

[callinectes]

A buddy of mine married a woman from North Carolina who calls me "damn yankee" all the time.

Somehow the combination of her smile, and this adorable lilt thing she's got goin' on, scrambles "damn yankee" into "you're magnificent" in my head.

I'd say your translation is spot-on.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I have punished mine in the past. I used the crop when I had to do it when we were at the same place. I have used restrictions and assignments when the distance was in the way.

I HATED using the crop on her, but at that time I had to do something to give her that "jolt" back into place. Don't get me wrong, I love the control and part of that is sometimes doing things I don't really like, but they get the reward of keeping the flow of the relationship.

I remember going back and forth on this with another member quite some time ago, and I really don't wish to reopen the debate on it. So I will close with saying I did what needed to be done.