Rape as a Fantasy

[Bondagebunni]

I don't think that you are 100% right about this.

but more than 50% at least, right?

 

[Freya]

I don't think that you are 100% right about this.

How so?

 

[rosco rathbone]

What I mean to say is..there are a lot of people on both sides of the equation who eroticize the idea of straight-up, gnarly, body-odor, premature-ejaculating stranger rape. I know becasue I rap with them.

 

[Freya]

What I mean to say is..there are a lot of people on both sides of the equation who eroticize the idea of straight-up, gnarly, body-odor, premature-ejaculating stranger rape. I know becasue I rap with them.

Fair enough. But what I'm saying is that a woman who actually wants to experience the fear and degradation of an actual stranger rape has got to be pretty high up on the scale of pain, or at least humilation. Because there's not much more humiliating than being invaded by a stranger in your most personal spots - never mind the mind fuck that accompanies it.

I mean, to each his own, but it is extremely humiliating and degrading.

 

[Bondagebunni]

Fair enough. But what I'm saying is that a woman who actually wants to experience the fear and degradation of an actual stranger rape has got to be pretty high up on the scale of pain, or at least humilation. Because there's not much more humiliating than being invaded by a stranger in your most personal spots - never mind the mind fuck that accompanies it.

I mean, to each his own, but it is extremely humiliating and degrading.

i agree

(i'm not contributing much to the conversation except watching and providing commentary...heehee!

 

[Pure]

Hi Unda,

you said (two excerpts from two postings)


For the woman who can't take a lot of physical or emotional abuse (with somebody who knows what he's doing, the emotional abuse can be the most devestating part of such an experience) but who have an overwhelming rape fantasy, the best way of having it fulfilled might be simply to meet somebody who will tie her up and then take her. If she knows the tier-up too well and it wouldn't be very rape-like with him, she could ask him (if they have that sort of relationship) to find someone else to rape her, someone willing to do more fucking than hitting, and then get tied up and have him there or nearby while the stranger takes her. She's have to rely on her friend's judgement to find somebody without a disease, who wouldn't end up killing her or maiming her, and all the other important stuff. //
===

Well, in "fantasy" rape, the rapist can make parts of the experience non-consensual, if not the overall agreement to rape. He can perhaps rape her in a manner or in an orifice that's completely unexpected to her. He can involve someone or several someones in the rape whom she doesn't know or who she would never think of raping her. He can make the time and place of the rape nonconsensual. This last can be particularly effective if it's really is a suprise to the person. Say, if his partner has told him she'd like to be raped, he immediately denies at the time any interest whatsoever in raping her, but then he waits until she's forgotten the incident completely, and then gives the rape she asked for but then believed she wouldn't ever get from him. Is that rape? Or is it not, because she gave prior consent even though she was misled about the outcome of her consent? It's



These details make wonderful reading, since the detail shows it's real, and yet your kinky imagination is in overdrive.

It's indeed a gray area, as you describe it. Half planning the unplanned. It's nice too to hear from a sub who doesn't want a detailed agreed list, and to pick over every detail --i.e. control--of an encounter.

Your talking about the fantasied, (partly) real, as opposed to the fantasied fantasy rape (ravishment by the cologned stranger on silken sheets in his hideaway).

I think you bring up a genuine issue in all sexual fantasy-- it's supposed to be spontaneous; something wild breaks out. Yet, perhaps with all the 'how to' books around, the so called fantasy becomes just a little too planned. One might say, more like a play, where the words and actions are mapped in detail: we spend time, man planning the 'dr' role, woman, the 'nurse' and where to rent the correct apparel. Even the play has potency, of course; we're sad when Ophelia 'dies', though no one died.

That said, it sounds a just a bit hazardous for a man to undertake this occupation of 'real rapist', perhaps tending to land him in jail if the surprise is too successful. Consider: She 'knows' its going to happen that month (there's a sketchy plan, just enough, and consent), but somehow it doesn't. Then in a dark hall, a couple days later--out the frame, as it were--the 'assault' begins. He thought it was one helluva surprise, when once he's almost subdued her, a uniformed 'cop'--actually an ally of his-- rescues her, cuffs him to a pipe, takes her to a car, drives her to a private location and 'rapes' her. (Or is it *rapes* her.) She too finds it a 'real' surprise and decides to lay charges!

All this is pretty unsettling stuff, somehow 'core', somehow more real dominance and submission, yet also at the far fringes of any 'safe' bdsm as discussed and advocated in these parts. Again, not beat the point to death, but it's all a fantasy I think I'd prefer *stays* that way.

Great topic, Unda; well thought out and articulated; extremely disturbing.

PS, typing this up, I'm reminded of the wonderful film "Westworld" where visitors, couples, pay to be in a cowboy, western town, with gunfights and all. Some of the gunslinger actors are 'bots'; one is played by real actor, Yul Brynner. Then a tourist *really* gets shot by a 'bot', the whole 'fantasy' turns nightmare....

 

[DemonicAngel]

Rape Me

I want to take and be taken. I want to drive a girl against a wall, but I also want a girl to dive on me one day. I just like the vigor!

 

[lark sparrow]

LOL, are you just fucking with me or do you really think that?

lol no, I'm not, Marquis. I think it stems from that in my mind, consent and no consent are fairly black and white.

The situations Unda mentioned to orchestrate a "rape" all had some form of consent in them. I am in no way against that form of play if it's agreed upon, but in my mind it is not rape because some form of consent and trust have been established. I don't play that way, because I can be just as surprised and pushed, and go home quite bruised up, used and sore in my fully consensual submission to my Mistress.

I don't have anything against rape fantasies or "forced" sex - I just see it differently than you do, so stopped interjecting as I wasn't and probably won't get your full meaning. But, it's been an interesting read.

 

[Marquis]

But I've never offered my feelings on the subject in this whole thread? All I wanted to do was hear the opinions of others. I can tell I'm not going to be able to get you to see that or believe it, but there is something I want to say.

As irrelevant as what any of you may think of my Lit persona "Marquis" is, it bothers me that anyone would ever think I would condone rape or want to do that to anyone. Oh well, I hope the fact that I would bother to say that means anything.

 

[lark sparrow]

But I've never offered my feelings on the subject in this whole thread? All I wanted to do was hear the opinions of others. I can tell I'm not going to be able to get you to see that or believe it, but there is something I want to say.

As irrelevant as what any of you may think of my Lit persona "Marquis" is, it bothers me that anyone would ever think I would condone rape or want to do that to anyone. Oh well, I hope the fact that I would bother to say that means anything.

I have attempted to understand and continue to read, but you have mentioned several times that this is an actual rape, but somehow perhaps not because the woman wanted it, then you mentioned your fantasies. lol I'm really trying to follow you here. And I am not saying you are condoning rape or want to rape. Maybe you mean in a D/s relationship where the Dom/me has the right to take and "rape" their partner at any time, without permission or advanced warning?

Still lost, but I didn't want to leave you with the impression that I am saying you personally want to be a rapist. I still think perhaps I am hung up on my own ideas of what consent means to me, and how it would be nearly impossible to rape with some form of trust and consent - though I can see how one can play with the concept of rape in the gray areas.

 

[lark sparrow]

What I mean to say is..there are a lot of people on both sides of the equation who eroticize the idea of straight-up, gnarly, body-odor, premature-ejaculating stranger rape. I know becasue I rap with them.

Is this more in line with what you are in interested in hearing about? This, to me, is about fantasy. As you stated, there are many things we have fantasies about, but only wish to actually experience them on a level where some trust and consent has been established. Roscoe says he has fantasies about stranger rape all the time, but he is not saying he is doing it. Hence, fantasy. If he and a woman with the same fantasy get together, they can recreate these fantasies, but, at that point in my thoughts, it is no longer an actual rape.

 

[silkee_A]

<snip> lark sparrow "As you stated, there are many things we have fantasies about, but only wish to actually experience them on a level where some trust and consent has been established."

I agree with you lark sparrow. I have rape fantasies, they are extremely erotic to me. But like you said it would have to be on a level where I trusted the person and that i consented to it. In my mind though I could be thinking of it as being raped which would fulfill my fantasy.

silkee_A

 

[UCE]

I think you are missing the point of the discussion people. He (Marquis) is not asking about fantasy or "set-up" rapes.



He's asking if you would like to be REALLY raped. No holds barred, no planning, no control, at the mercy and whim of a stranger you (nor your friends/bf/gf/etc) have ever seen or known.

As for those things I pointed out UCE, those are all potential things that can occur, and I'm sure some more. I did not say that was a typical rape. I am in no way a rape expert... or hell a novice for that matter. As for the urine and defacation...there are a number of ways that can occur, fear, massive abdominal damage, death, etc. In many rapes, the actual sex part is less than half of what goes on. The beating is much worse.

Anyhoo... just wanted to clear that up.

PBW

Yeah, that did help clear it up. In that case, I fantasize about stranger rape a lot, but I fantasize more about rape from somebody I know a little, because once I know a person I find them more sexy. Strangers just have too much potential to be unsexy, and when I'm trying to fantasize about them I think about all the stupid ideas or personality traits that they might have and that pretty much ruins the masturbation session!

No, I would never want stranger rape in real life, because there's too much potential for a really bad outcome. I mean boring as a bad outcome too, lol!

About the defecation: I read a story once where a teen girl was getting raped in a restroom and she grossed out the rapist and made him leave by loosening her bowels. I'm probably too uptight to actually do this if push came to shove but I've always remembered it as a potential way to stop a rape.

Here are some links to some simulated rape galleries, since we're on the subject. These aren't the best ones I've ever seen but they have the advantage of being convenient. The pics are fuzzy like most forced-sex images seem to be on purpose, but I think if you reduced some of these by 50% they'd sharpen up considerably:

http://raped.teenz.ws/rap1/
http://raped.teenz.ws/rap2/
http://raped.teenz.ws/rap3/

Each of these is a series of four-five pages long. I found it "safe" to click the next page link. I didn't get any bullshit when I did.

But that reminds me: people who do not have pop-up stoppers or java disabled on their browsers should watch out for any links I post. I use all kinds of things to prevent popups so I never know if any of the links I give you will have trouble.

Unda

 

[Never]

I can say I’ve had rape fantasies but I can’t say I’ve ever fantasized about being raped.

Marquis, I doubt very much that you’ll find a woman or man who’ll reply ‘yes’ to your question. I know people who love to skydive but I’ve not met one who’d love it if I grabbed them one day, took them up, and booted them out of a plane a couple hundred miles above the ground.

UCE, regarding your comment on the strength of the vagina. I’m guessing yours must be made of brick or mine is made of tissue paper. I think one average man could make a woman bleed, especially when it comes to object rape.

 

[UCE]

UCE, you say that the types of injuries PBW describes rarely happen in rapes. On what do you base that?

Simply on ancedotal evidence: the real rapes of myself and the women who have told their stories in my hearing. Maybe 100-200 over my lifetime, so far. So it's not scientific, or anything.

You also asked:

"And on an aside, what kind of sex play is it that you enjoy? I'm not going to pass judgement, but personally, what you deem acceptable scares the living shit out of me. It seems to me that you don't mind half killing a partner, or being half killed yourself. "

Half-killing? No way! I'm sorry if my posts gave you that impression. I am not writing clearly again, clearly.

I like humilation best, in bdsm play, but physical intensity is my second favorite. Or maybe third. I like mindgames play and genuine terror an awful lot too.

As far as the physical goes, I like "hands on" brutality more than instruments (like whips or floggers)--it's just sexier to me for some reason. Maybe because it's more intimate? I love having blood drawn. Wouldn't care if a tooth was loosened or fell out, but I would care about how I looked later so I'd make my partner pay half the price of replacement, lol. I don't think I'd want damage (either single time or cumulative) that would require a hospital visit because the ER staff ask very probing questions these days, and if I were there I might not have my wits together enough to lie effectively to them. But things like heavy bruising, abrasion, light burning (burns get infected so easily that it makes that sort of play pretty dangerous), swelling, all that is Ok. If a bone broke, I don't think it would be a big deal for me, but I would get it treated. I'm also cool with very minor, one-time-only amputation, but like I said in the post above, nothing that would affect my ability to function as I do now in the world. Here's an example of that: a sprained ankle, as much as it hurts, would not impair my ability to work (I have a desk job). A dislocated shoulder, on the other hand, would interefere, as these take forever to heal and hurt like a son of a bitch and I might not be able to sit up for awhile! None of these things reaches the level of killed "half to death," they just hurt a lot, and you may need to lie in bed a few days with a bunch of analgesics to recover. I've always wanted to experience safe but painful forms of electricity, too. Maybe someday.

I'm a female, submissive, longterm slave. The stuff I'm taking about above are just my wants, I don't put my foot down in my relationship about anything, obviously.

Now it's your turn, Cirrus. What kinds of play do you like the best? Where do you draw the line, in doing stuff or being done?

Regards,
Unda

 

[UCE]

I'd think you'd have to be pretty high on the by some scumbag that hasn't showered in 3 weeks.

And again, anyone who has experienced rape, and enjoyed it, would also have to be into that scene pretty deep - and I would suggest, needs a small amount of counselling.

LOL, two comments! First of all, some of us fetishize the sucmbag who hasn't showered in three weeks! I'm into smells in sex and the more natural and human the smells, the better. So I'd do scumbag, maybe, if he had other redeeming qualities.

About enjoying stranger rape: some women, to their great shock and distress, orgasm during a real rape, even though they hate the rape. They simply get physically stimulated. I don't know if such a woman needs counselling except to be told that she isn't an unnatural freak or even a masochist just because her body had that response.

 

[Freya]

LOL, two comments! First of all, some of us fetishize the sucmbag who hasn't showered in three weeks! I'm into smells in sex and the more natural and human the smells, the better. So I'd do scumbag, maybe, if he had other redeeming qualities.

About enjoying stranger rape: some women, to their great shock and distress, orgasm during a real rape, even though they hate the rape. They simply get physically stimulated. I don't know if such a woman needs counselling except to be told that she isn't an unnatural freak or even a masochist just because her body had that response.

Good point UCE. I never thought of it that way.

I still think a man who hasn't showered in 3 weeks has got to be pretty gross, but to each his/her own.

 

[Cuckolded_BlK_Male]

Many people libidinize power, rage, and violationl; from both the doer and doee side of the equation. The definition of rape as a "crime of anger, not sex" is wishful thinking originally proposed by feminist activists with no insight whatsoever into the psychosexual workings of the actual human bean.

Exactly. I couldn't agree with you more. In the twisted repressed Puritanical sexual landscape of America, a date-rape is held as a more heinous crime than a murder. Nothing that you can walk away from is as serious as murder.

Also, it's only rape of a female by a male that is held in such grave regard. Thousands of teenaged boys are repeatedly gang raped in Americas jails every year. This goes on with the full knowledge and tacit approval of those charged with running those institutions. For anyone who'd say that incarcerated individuals deserve to be repeatedly homosexually rape, it's usually not the ones who committed the worst crimes who are raped. It's generally the ones who end up in jail on something minor like marijuana possession, who aren't particularly large or violent, don't know how to conduct themselves behinds bars, are very young (often minors), and in a lot of cases White.

On the other hand, rape of or even consensual sex with an incarcerated female is a huge deal. If a female turns up pregnant, for instance, in jail heads will role. However, if a 17 year old kid arrested outside of a Phish concert with an ounce of weed gets fucked in the ass by 45 hardened criminals over an 8 hour period, while the guards refuse to act, it doesn't seem to be a big deal to the majority of Americans.

 

[UCE]

I am interested in hearing from those people like UCE or others who I am sure are out there who think they might really like that.

Even for me, Marquis, it's a pretty damn big "might." When PBW clarified the thread for me (thanks, btw, PBW), I was pretty sure that my answer was absolutely not--wouldn't like stranger rape ever. But in thinking it over once again after reading your words, I can envision some circumstances in which it wouldn't be all that bad. The trouble with a stranger rape, though, is precisely that the vicitm _doesn't_ get to choose circumstances that would make such an experience physically or psychologically OK for her.

But I can list out a couple of the circumstances that would apply for me:

1. The prior consent circumstance. Think of the Story of O. She consents to go to this house where she is raped and beaten repeatedly by strangers. She has no control over who rapes her or how or when or how much pain she gets, but she initially agrees to go to the place. She agrees to a condition of being perpetually open to violation. I would feel OK about rapes that were under that circumstance, because the only person I could legimitately blame for any of what's going on is myself. And even if I wanted to leave and wasn't allowed to and never wanted a rape again but was still continually raped, I would still be OK about it psychologically, because I had done the prior consent thing.

2. If the rapist had a sense of humor and didn't leave me half-dead. I'd still have all the fears later about disease transmission and maybe pregnancy but I'd find it awfully hard to experience that intense emotional shutdown and horror if the guy violating me was making jokes about it or me or him constantly. I don't know why a sense of humor would make such a big difference, but for me it would.

Marquis said:

"I also certainly don't think it helps encourage those people that have those opinions but may not be as strong-minded as UCE to post when people keep telling them how crazy they are. Its certainly not too common a desire, but thats what makes me want to hear about it!"

I think it's relatively rare for a woman to want stranger rape, but I have met such women online--women who took what I thought were terrible risks by posting their address online in a place where hundreds or even thousands would see it and saying they were home alone and waiting. I only ran across one or two women who did something that stupid and daring, and I have to believe that they didn't think out the consequences of what they were doing. They probably only thought about the hot sexy possibilities rather than the ones in which a psycho tortures them horrfically for hours and leaves them mutilated if not dead.

It's more common for women to advertise wanting rape online but make the specific arrangements in email with somebody they find acceptable.

Marquis said:

"One of the main questions I've been wanting to ask that I hoped would flow from this conversation is this: If you enjoyed it, would you be upset at your rapist?"

If the enjoyment had mental and emotional elements, and was not just a knee jerk bodily reaction which I couldn't control, then no, quite honestly, I wouldn't be mad at the rapist. He did a terrible thing, he violated my body without permission, he forced intimacy on me that I didn't invite, but I would also remember the enjoyable aspects I experienced and think about how such a random encounter could have been so much worse (like for instance the scenario PBW first described to me). I don't think this would be a standard reaction for most women, however. Remember, I've lived as a slave for a long time and over the years I've lost a great deal of that sense of "personal ownership" of my body that I used to have.

Marquis:

"After all, whether or not you enjoyed it, his intentions were the same."

Well, the his intentions and my enjoyment are intertwined for me: if his intentions included psychological sadism and making me feel wretched then there'd probably be no way I could enjoy what he did unless he was a total bungler at making women feel bad and so cracked me up at his ineptness. But if a stranger's intentions did not contain that element of angry hate and maliciousness, my response to it would be more positive...or at least less negative.

I wouldn't mind psychological sadism in a sexual context from people I know and like, but from a stranger in a rape situation, it would be what made the rape horrific for me.

Marquis said further:

"Also, do you think that you would enjoy being raped even if it were not arranged, but if "alls well that ends well" as they say (you weren't too hurt or anything like that)?"

The answer to this one is a definite "no." What would make or break the experience for me would be the personality of the rapist and what parts of that he expressed to me, assuming I didn't get badly hurt.

Marquis:

"I think posts warning about the dangers of rape or talking about how traumatic it can be are slightly out of place here. I am merely trying to learn about how a certain group of people feel, and I don't think there is any need to stifle their contributions."

I agree about not trying to stifle others, I don't think anybody should do that at any time in any thread, but rape is such a loaded subject with so many people that realistically speaking, you have to expect that people will vent about it and want to express their horror at it, even if they know it's par for the course. It's the venting, the expressing that is important, not the actual information, which everybody may already know. I think that to keep a thread like this as remarkably open as it's been so far, without any of the stifling business, you also can't tell other people to stifle their own genuine emotions about this subject, even if they are very negative and predictable.

I personally am learning new things from both types of messages here.

Regards,
Unda

 

[UCE]

It's very hard for me to comprehend someone that would actually want a stranger rape, but I'd be interested in hearing why.

UCE, you've obviously given this a lot of thought, and I sense that pain and humiliation in large doses are not alien to you. When you speak of setting this up beforehand, do things like lube cross your mind, or is part of it as much pain as you can take? I know you've said that being hit, punched, slapped etc don't bother you, as long as it doesn't put you out of commission. I'm just thinking that in cases of extreme fear, most women wouldn't be wet or excited, so you'd have that pain to consider and a man forcing himself violently into various areas could cause enough pain or damage to, if not put you out of commission, at least make you extremely uncomfortable for a few days. Or would that fear excite you?

Hi Freya,

In answer to your questions, the thought of no lube is super erotic to me. Pain during intercourse: YES! I don't care about the sore, chaffed business, but I don't know if it's realistic, because as much as I read in the literature (fiction with rape in it) about the man going in dry without lube, I figure it's got to hurt the guy as well so he'd probably at least spit on himself to get some lubrication going in.

No lube vaginal fucking doesn't put me personally out of commision, in my experience (did it with my first, vanilla, husband a handful of times). It's just annoyingly painful.

And yeah, fear is very erotic to me, but like everybody else here is saying about rape, it has to be fear in the right circustances. If caused randomly by a complete stranger it wouldn't be hot at all.

Unda

 

[Freya]

CBM - I disagree with what you've said. Of course, I'm not from America (thankfully) so that comment didn't really apply to me. But as a person, I do see all kinds of things wrong with a 17 yr old kid being violated in prison against his will. I see nothing wrong with a child molester being raped 45 times over an 8 hour period, but if it's some young kid who made a stupid mistake, then I do have big issues with it.

I also disagree with the contention that rape is a sexual act, rather than one committed out of anger or a need to humiliate or hurt a person. If rape was a sexual act, it would generally be done to youngish, attractive females, rather than the wide variety of women that are attacked daily. If rape was purely about sex, it wouldn't cause so much damage to the victim, mentally and physically. It would be more of an act of animal lust. Granted, some rapes might fall into that category - ie: date rapes - but for the most part they are all about a need to control and overpower a weaker being.

 

[UCE]

I'm not sure what he is trying to imply or ask, but I certainly hope he is not looking for approval for an actual rape and finding it from UCE.

I can't say what Marquis is doing, but I know that open and honest talk about this subject, whatever the content may be, will help people all around, not hurt them.

(Grr! I have got to shorten my sig line--it's longer than some of my posts!)

 

[UCE]

I think though, that if you set it up ahead of time with a person, no matter how violent it is, or no matter that you don't know where or when it'll happen, you are still, in essence, agreeing to this act. So it no longer can accurately be called rape.

Although if you did set it up beforehand, and decided afterward that it was less than ideal, you still could probably send the guy who did it to jail. That's why if anyone ever plans to set something like this up, you have to be _very very careful_ and sure about the person you do it with, whether they are the raper or the rapee.

 

[UCE]

PS, typing this up, I'm reminded of the wonderful film "Westworld" where visitors, couples, pay to be in a cowboy, western town, with gunfights and all. Some of the gunslinger actors are 'bots'; one is played by real actor, Yul Brynner. Then a tourist *really* gets shot by a 'bot', the whole 'fantasy' turns nightmare....

I'm glad you liked these posts, Pure. Yeah, I do have a kinky imagination that tends to get away from me, but it lets me think up lots of enjoyable "what if" scenarios. I do a whole lot of grey area rapes in my stories too. In fact, when I was writing some posts in this thread, I was thinking of how frustrating it is to try to explain all of this outside of a story! Maybe I will try to post one here in messages. The extreme stories have to be hand-uploaded, I was told, a tedious process, so it could be many months, even a year, before my tales become visible there.

Westworld was a very fun film! I'm a hardcore Yul fan anyway (are there any het women out there who can say truthfully that they don't adore tbis real-life twin of Mr. Clean?), and the concept of the tame fantasy turning into real nightmare is very hot. If only the film had a sexual theme running through it too, along the same lines, but I'm afraid that would have been way too hot for Hollywood to touch.

Unda

 

[UCE]

UCE, regarding your comment on the strength of the vagina. I’m guessing yours must be made of brick or mine is made of tissue paper. I think one average man could make a woman bleed, especially when it comes to object rape.

What's object rape? If you mean by that a guy taking an object like a splitered piece of wood and shoving it up a vagina, I fully agree! Mine would tear and bleed under that treatment. But if you're still talking about smooth penises here, I just remember doing it dry several times with a first husband many years ago and it was chaffed and somewhat sore afterward, but no bleeding, and I was able to do it again (with lube) later that day. But my first husband was highly sexed (although alas, so straight-laced!) and I think my vagina got used to a lot of stress on it.

LOL, maybe frequently-used pussies get callouses in them.

Unda