Rape as a Fantasy

[Marquis]

I can say I’ve had rape fantasies but I can’t say I’ve ever fantasized about being raped.

Marquis, I doubt very much that you’ll find a woman or man who’ll reply ‘yes’ to your question. I know people who love to skydive but I’ve not met one who’d love it if I grabbed them one day, took them up, and booted them out of a plane a couple hundred miles above the ground.

UCE, regarding your comment on the strength of the vagina. I’m guessing yours must be made of brick or mine is made of tissue paper. I think one average man could make a woman bleed, especially when it comes to object rape.

Well, first of all, congratulations on explaining in one line what I have been trying to explain in paragraphs.

Secondly, I am beginning to think that you are probably right about no one saying yes to this question (although I am sure there is SOMEONE out there who would), and that is a satisfying response to me. I was curious as to whether or not anyone would say yes to that, and even on lit, it seems there are no takers. I don't suppose that's entirely surprising, but I have been surprised on Lit lots of times before.

Now that I feel satisfied with my understanding of how people think about the situation, I want to reveal my main reason for bringing it up. You see, I know a situation where this actually happened.

A friend of mine was working as a waitress at a bar and one night when she was closing late her boss forcibly raped her. She wasn't hurt very badly but she went home crying and quit the next day. She told me about this a few months later and I wanted very much for her to call the police, but she said she wouldn't do it. I asked her why and she said it was because afterwards she decided she had liked it and the thought of it makes her hot to this day. I tried to tell her that firstly, her psyche may just be equivocating the situation to help her deal with the pain (she's not even into BDSM and she has a lot of problems as it is), and secondly his intentions were the same whether she liked it or not. Mostly, I think she should tell the police because he is probably going to do it to another girl if he hasn't already. Mostly, this topic was created to try and understand her.

 

[Bondagebunni]

night when she was closing late her boss forcibly raped her. She wasn't hurt very badly but she went home crying and quit the next day. She told me about this a few months later and I wanted very much for her to call the police, but she said she wouldn't do it. I asked her why and she said it was because afterwards she decided she had liked it and the thought of it makes her hot to this day. I tried to tell her that firstly, her psyche may just be equivocating the situation to help her deal with the pain (she's not even into BDSM and she has a lot of problems as it is), and secondly his intentions were the same whether she liked it or not. Mostly, I think she should tell the police because he is probably going to do it to another girl if he hasn't already. Mostly, this topic was created to try and understand her.

might i suggest getting her to go to a psychologist? in case you haven't tried that already.

 

[bunny bondage]

UCE, regarding your comment on the strength of the vagina. I’m guessing yours must be made of brick or mine is made of tissue paper. I think one average man could make a woman bleed, especially when it comes to object rape. [/B]

i'm with you, i've been "torn" several times.

 

[Bondagebunni]

i'm with you, i've been "torn" several times.

*nodds* i've managed to make myself bleed by accidentally "playing" too hard by myself.

 

[Pure]

Marquis:

I asked her why and she said it was because afterwards she decided she had liked it and the thought of it makes her hot to this day. I tried to tell her that firstly, her psyche may just be equivocating the situation to help her deal with the pain (she's not even into BDSM and she has a lot of problems as it is), and secondly his intentions were the same whether she liked it or not.

Good points Marquis. It's not widely publicized, but I believe, occasionally a rape is experienced as a turn on (sexual pleasure), if there's little physical damage. The 'crime' element remains. Violation of 'consent', i.e., assault. As you say, the person doing it is dangerous.

An analogy might be: I'm kidnapped, but taken to an rather pleasant island, where I get food and shelter. Kind of like some celebrity kidnappings for money. I *ENJOY* the island, but am there against my will; and the kidnapper is dangerous.

Maybe after being robbed, in a neighboring city, I really enjoy being a penniless hitch hiker for a few hours, getting home. Still there was a crime.

Just my opinions.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Exactly. I couldn't agree with you more. In the twisted repressed Puritanical sexual landscape of America, a date-rape is held as a more heinous crime than a murder. Nothing that you can walk away from is as serious as murder.

Also, it's only rape of a female by a male that is held in such grave regard. Thousands of teenaged boys are repeatedly gang raped in Americas jails every year. This goes on with the full knowledge and tacit approval of those charged with running those institutions. For anyone who'd say that incarcerated individuals deserve to be repeatedly homosexually rape, it's usually not the ones who committed the worst crimes who are raped. It's generally the ones who end up in jail on something minor like marijuana possession, who aren't particularly large or violent, don't know how to conduct themselves behinds bars, are very young (often minors), and in a lot of cases White.

On the other hand, rape of or even consensual sex with an incarcerated female is a huge deal. If a female turns up pregnant, for instance, in jail heads will role. However, if a 17 year old kid arrested outside of a Phish concert with an ounce of weed gets fucked in the ass by 45 hardened criminals over an 8 hour period, while the guards refuse to act, it doesn't seem to be a big deal to the majority of Americans.

This book is solid gold if you are interested in rape:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-1404906-0439332?v=glance&s=books

I got it at my local library.

 

[rosco rathbone]

i'm with you, i've been "torn" several times.

I've known several women who bled quite easily from being fucked hard.

 

[Pure]

Excellent points, CBW, esp. re 'date rape'.

It might be added that the damage of a rape is not simply measured in 'tearing' 'wounds' 'broken bones' etc. If someone, before or during the rape, is terrorized, esp. for an extended period, confined etc. the psychological effects far outweigh all others.

Some of this goes to the possibility of 'recreating' or staging a rape, for the 'benefit' --or even at the request-- of a seriously kinked person (male or female). How much fear can be created, in a consensual situation? Maybe a lot: even though the person knows his/her life is not in danger, certain painful prospects would do the trick.

There was a book entitled Pleasure and Danger, which is relevant to some of this.

One small amendment:
CBM said,

Nothing that you can walk away from is as serious as murder.


Well, there are some things pretty close, for instance if a person is tortured, the spouse raped, and their kids killed in front of their eyes.

Indeed, some tortures of one person alone, may qualify, and I think I'd rather be murdered. Mind and soul can be destroyed, though the body lives.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I know people who love to skydive but I’ve not met one who’d love it if I grabbed them one day, took them up, and booted them out of a plane a couple hundred miles above the ground.

This analogy equates rape with murder. Both are bad, but the second is worse than the first . You are confusing levels and papering over grey areas. I can easily imagine a person who-no doubt in some conflicted and confused psychosxual way-wants to be raped. That is, no-parachute, no-control stranger-raped. It does not follow that they would like to be killed.

Only some people have these fantasies, but they definitely have them. I fantasize about stranger-raping all the time. I've been "planning" the black-bag entry of the apartment across the airshaft for years. There's a snotty Brazilian stewardress who lives there and in my masturbatory mind I need to beat her and fuck her violently. Naturally, there are quite a few good reasons not to act this sort of thing out, ranging from the moral to the practical.

In all honesty, I think many perfectly sane, functional, normal men have a dose of rape in them held back only by fear of consequences. I've had times where, out of feelings of powerlessness and sexual rage, I would have raped someone if I could have gotten away with it. In those moods, the moral censor can go AWOL. Looking back on hard psychosexual times I have been through, I am very glad that I never acted anything out. I think my self-punishment and guilt would have been far worse than the actual punishment meted out by the state, but at the time that fantasy and reality were rubbing elbows it was mainly fear of prison that stopped me from going any further.

Thornhill and Palmer have a brilliant section in Natural History of Rape where they explain how the threat of sexual deprivation in prison can act as a control of sexually aggressive males because it is a clear case of "scratching this itch now will most likely deprive you of any opportunity to scratch it for years in the future".

This turned into an essay by accident.

 

[P. B. Walker]

The whole bleeding thing... I went back and thought about this, and I also have made at least 3 separate women bleed from just (what I call) regular fucking. And, for those who've seen my pics, I'm definitely not what you would call hung. And I checked with them to make sure they weren't on their period or close to starting it, or whatever. They were all actually quite concerned.

So, yes, bleeding from rape is very possible and I'm guessing if you did some research probably quite common.

PBW

 

[UCE]

The whole bleeding thing... I went back and thought about this, and I also have made at least 3 separate women bleed from just (what I call) regular fucking. And, for those who've seen my pics, I'm definitely not what you would call hung. And I checked with them to make sure they weren't on their period or close to starting it, or whatever. They were all actually quite concerned.
PBW

Had it been a long time since any of these women had had intercourse with a man? I once heard a very lurid description on another board from a woman who hadn't had sex in three years then had a long fun evening with a male friend of normal endowment. She did all the things in the same quantities that she used to do before the long celibacy period. She described her vagina after the event in war-zone terms, lol. It sounded very bad. And she claimed it was because she hadn't had sex in several years. Something about how un-use makes it fragile?

 

[P. B. Walker]

Had it been a long time since any of these women had had intercourse with a man? I once heard a very lurid description on another board from a woman who hadn't had sex in three years then had a long fun evening with a male friend of normal endowment. She did all the things in the same quantities that she used to do before the long celibacy period. She described her vagina after the event in war-zone terms, lol. It sounded very bad. And she claimed it was because she hadn't had sex in several years. Something about how un-use makes it fragile?

Mmm... well one had regular sex. I met her thru a chat room and saw pics of her regular man, he was to say the least, quite hung. She'd never had that problem before. The other one had pretty regular sex I would thing. I don't know the details, but she belonged to a swingers club. So I think that speaks for itself. I'm not sure about the third woman but I'm pretty sure it had not been a long time (more than a couple of months) since she'd had her last sexual encounter.

So, no, they all had strong healthy vaginas

PBW

 

[evesdream]

Well, first of all, congratulations on explaining in one line what I have been trying to explain in paragraphs.

Secondly, I am beginning to think that you are probably right about no one saying yes to this question (although I am sure there is SOMEONE out there who would), and that is a satisfying response to me. I was curious as to whether or not anyone would say yes to that, and even on lit, it seems there are no takers. I don't suppose that's entirely surprising, but I have been surprised on Lit lots of times before.

Now that I feel satisfied with my understanding of how people think about the situation, I want to reveal my main reason for bringing it up. You see, I know a situation where this actually happened.

A friend of mine was working as a waitress at a bar and one night when she was closing late her boss forcibly raped her. She wasn't hurt very badly but she went home crying and quit the next day. She told me about this a few months later and I wanted very much for her to call the police, but she said she wouldn't do it. I asked her why and she said it was because afterwards she decided she had liked it and the thought of it makes her hot to this day. I tried to tell her that firstly, her psyche may just be equivocating the situation to help her deal with the pain (she's not even into BDSM and she has a lot of problems as it is), and secondly his intentions were the same whether she liked it or not. Mostly, I think she should tell the police because he is probably going to do it to another girl if he hasn't already. Mostly, this topic was created to try and understand her.

Marquis,
The first part of your question, the one you started this thread with, has been covered very thoroughly already but I think I can add to it.

As for what you've just brought up, well, I was in a situation similar to your friend's...though I'm not sure what you mean by "forcibly raped"- isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?

One main difference between your friend as you've described her and myself is that I've had force fantasies for as long as I can remember, although when this happened to me a few years ago, I didn't have an inkling of the BDSM world and it's queer denizens.

I don't know if you'll have much luck trying to understand your friend's experience by drawing on the experience of other women - she seems to have made a very grey and personal resolution, but I see from the phrasing of your first question that you have other reasons for asking.

Anyhow, there are a few things that might make my experience different or similar (who knows) to that of your friend. Along with the fantasies I'd always had, I thought that I could "handle" anything that I could imagine having done to me (it's mostly machisma), and I wanted to know what it felt like. (While it was happening, that's what I thought in a detached way, "So this is what it feels like.")

I was also conscious of the fact that the worst shame for me would be being thought of as a "victim". At the time I was furious and also determined not to be "victimized" in my mind or in the mind's of others. And what easier way to escape victim-hood and the shame it would've made me feel, than to deny that a real "no means no" rape was or had occurred? Equivocation then? Maybe.

And on top of all of this, if it had been a different situation, (one in which fucking him might've actually crossed my mind...) there would have been a chance of ...something consensual with this person because I was attracted to him initially, and afterwards. In other words, he could have been anyone's fantasy- and the situation wasn't entirely devoid of erotic potential for me, as say, being forced to witness a rape would be or being forced to have sex with a family member, or anything else foreign to my personal lust life.

All of these different factors would have helped me to equivocate the situation, as you said, to deal with the pain, before, after, and during the rape.

As a result of that I think, I was able to experience it as more of an initiation rather than a haunting and devastating trauma.

That still doesn't mean I wanted to be raped or that it didn't hurt. I was reeling emotionally afterwards, and I did quit my job angrily. Later, still angry at him and possibly the world at large, I realized that I had no interest in trying to book somebody who'd made me feel that good, whether he meant to make me feel that way or not.

It hurt emotionally, and there were more consequences than that, and it was also extremely hot for me, during and in afterthought, and fortunately or by personal design, in ran in sync with my own sexual explorations.

It was very _grey_. I'm irritated by anyone who tries to interpret the situation for me, whether in a well-meaning anti-rape, "nail the criminal" kind of way, or in a "so it wasn't really rape then" way, because those definitions still seem too narrow in this particular case, and they also seem to serve the interests (political or personal) of persons other than myself, who has to live with what actually occurred.

I don't know if this will actually help you to understand your friend any more, I'll also add that the stigma of rape in that situation can work a number of different ways. She might be ashamed of having liked it on a physical level, and that's a different kind of self-torture. A lot of women unjustly blame themselves for being raped, and don't report. If she felt pleasure it would underscore the self-blame. She's obviously the only one who can sort out how she really feels about what happened and what she wants to do about it, but if she can get to her own truth of the matter, then she'll be able to please herself, whatever she does about this without the shame and self-recrimination that's so unfortunately common.

I guess the only other thing I have to say is that while I think a lot of men fantasize about forcing a helpless woman, and while many women idealize that situation too to suit their needs, no fantasy can be assumed to run concurrent with another's. My idea of a "rape fantasy" is probably different, milder or harder or whatever, than a dozen others. Men who presume to read a woman's mind when it comes to this no doubt deserve what they get, it's a dumb move.

 

[evesdream]

This book is solid gold if you are interested in rape:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-1404906-0439332?v=glance&s=books

I got it at my local library.

i wasn't going to say but...this book is only solid gold if you don't mind that the authors compare the lives of human beings with that of _MAYFLIES AND DUNGBEETLES_ in order to drive their points home

 

[Pure]

A fascinating and compelling posting, evesdream!

J

 

[Bondagebunni]

i figured i should announce my lurking

*lurk, lurk*

 

[UCE]

i figured i should announce my lurking

*lurk, lurk*

LOL! Why are you annoucing your lurking in this thread of all places! Can't lurk and loiter around here! You just may be raped!

 

[UCE]

i wasn't going to say but...this book is only solid gold if you don't mind that the authors compare the lives of human beings with that of _MAYFLIES AND DUNGBEETLES_ in order to drive their points home

But, snort, I gots ta ask: it is a _fair_ comparison?

(thinking of certain people whose names I will not name who remind me quite a bit of dungbeetles at this moment).

 

[UCE]

Mmm... well one had regular sex. I met her thru a chat room and saw pics of her regular man, he was to say the least, quite hung. She'd never had that problem before. The other one had pretty regular sex I would thing. I don't know the details, but she belonged to a swingers club. So I think that speaks for itself. I'm not sure about the third woman but I'm pretty sure it had not been a long time (more than a couple of months) since she'd had her last sexual encounter.

So, no, they all had strong healthy vaginas

PBW

Ok, Ok you've made your point. I have done it dry and never bled so I am Ms Concrete Cunt. I guess I had to be. That first husband of mine liked it four or five times a day and he was hunger than hung. :/ 9 inches if he was a millimeter. Still... I could DT him.

 

[Bondagebunni]

LOL! Why are you annoucing your lurking in this thread of all places! Can't lurk and loiter around here! You just may be raped!

lol, eh, not such a bad thing, eh? i've just been reading and not saying anything so i just thought i'd acknowledge my enjoyment of the information i'm getting.

 

[Bondagebunni]

Ok, Ok you've made your point. I have done it dry and never bled so I am Ms Concrete Cunt. I guess I had to be. That first husband of mine liked it four or five times a day and he was hunger than hung. :/ 9 inches if he was a millimeter. Still... I could DT him.

some people have stronger/thicker skin than others...and the same goes for vaginas, i'd assume.

 

[UCE]

lol, eh, not such a bad thing, eh? i've just been reading and not saying anything so i just thought i'd acknowledge my enjoyment of the information i'm getting.

OK, now I get it!

 

[UCE]

some people have stronger/thicker skin than others...and the same goes for vaginas, i'd assume.

Maybe so... If it's true there may be hope for me and anal sex yet. Like vagina, like rear end?

But the pain I feel with things shoved up my bottom isn't a skin scraping feeling--it's more of a cramping sensation. My muscles involuntarily cramp and I can't relax them, no matter how much I try not to tighten beforehand. Guess I should take this to the anal thread.

Unda

 

[Bondagebunni]

OK, now I get it!

lol..heehee...i'm a confuzzling personage/bunnything.

 

[Marquis]

Evesdream, thank you so much for your post. I think there were a great number of similarities between your situation and my friends and I think a lot of your mental processes were the same. My friend is also very anti-victimization and has a ton of machisma.

Marquis,
"forcibly raped"- isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?

No but its kind of redundant.

Marquis,
but I see from the phrasing of your first question that you have other reasons for asking.

Yeah, people keep telling me I have other reasons for asking these questions, I am dying to know what those are.