Sex, Bondage and Religion

[monster666]

You are very welcome. Thank you, for such a thoughtful reply. It was moving. If I wasn't a big green monster, that is.

Thanks, Monster. Sorry for the ramble. Hey, at least you can tell that I took your questions seriously, right?

 

[cymbidia]

I've stayed out of this thread deliberately but i've been reading. Oh yes. Avidly. It's because religion confuses me. Well, maybe not "confuses". Maybe it's just that i have nothing concrete in terms of religion, or organized forms of that, in my present life - or in my background.

My mother is Jewish. By Jewish law, therefore, so am i. My father is Catholic. Neither has done much toward practicing thier religions in my lifetime. When i was little, my parents sent me and my sisters down the street on Sunday to attend the closest church (by ourselves), a place that happened to be Lutheran.

One sunny Sunday when i was about 7 or 8 or so, i came home from sunday school and told my parents they were going to hell because they didn't go to the Lutheran church with me and my sisters. My sisters stood next to me and nodded somberly.

I never went to that Lutheran church again. Every single weekend after that, for years and years - until i was old enough to say i am *not* going anymore! - my father dragged us off someplace in the greater San Diego area to attend religious meetings of every single religion, major or minor, that he could find. We visited the Buddists, Islam, all the varieties of Chrisitian, the Jews (hi my people!), Greek Orthodoxy, Mormons, Catholics...Wiccans, too, R. All of them. We visited every single even remotely quasi-religion he could find in our metropolian area. The humanistic religions were making strong inroads into everyday life (like the Univeralists) and we went to listent o them, too.

My father bought books on world religions and made us look through them, learn from them. The books encapsulated religions that were no longer being practiced, like those practiced by the Summerians and Egyptians.

Through all this was one major theme: good people are everywhere. Religion is a personal choice and there is no one true religion. How can the great mass of humanity, most of whom are good people, be condemned to hell because they don't share a chuch and set of religious beliefs with some other religious, he asked us over and over through those years.

Therefore, i've never had a set dogma with respect to religion.
I have nothing on which to feel guilty, in that sense.

R knows: i have a set in internal beliefs, some might call them religious though i do not.

I believe that most people are good.
I believe that if you project good into the universe, good will come back to you. (I don't think it works about bad, though, not usually, something that's a flaw in my logic as R has pointed out - and i believe she was laughing at me while she pointed that out, too, btw.)

I don't believe in one benevolent or not-so-benevolent God staring down from the top of the clouds and counting up all my "sins" (and i'm kinda unclear on that whole "sin" concept, too, to be truthful.)

I don't know what will happen when i die.

All i have now.

I believe in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Every single world religion that i can find has an analogous creed or law or homily or saying. All of them. Past and present. This is the closest i can find to a universal truth and/or guiding principle for humans on our planet.

In light of my past, it seems obvious that i have absolutely no problems with my BDSM sexuality and a religious clash - since i have no firm or formal religion in which to hang a problem like that.





And now i am off to play.
Yes.
Our way.

Have a good day.

 

[WriterDom]

WD can you give me some of the links You found please? It does sound interesting. LOVE the av BTW

http://www.cbdsm.com/

 

[monster666]

Oh, how I wish I such a Californian upbringing! Because of my years of church-going from early childhood until early adulthood, my adult life has been one guilt trip after another until the past few years. I was 19 before I had ANY kind of sex, and I was sure I was going straight to hell for it then.

In the past few years, I've been able to find peace in the knowledge that much of the condemnation I learned as a child is bull propagated by those who wish to keep the pews full on Sundays. After all, if there are no asses in seat there are no dollars in the plates. Well, maybe that's a gross oversimpification of the process I've been through for the second half of my life so far, but it about sums up how I feel about organized religion now.

Therefore, i've never had a set dogma with respect to religion.
I have nothing on which to feel guilty, in that sense...

...I don't believe in one benevolent or not-so-benevolent God staring down from the top of the clouds and counting up all my "sins" (and i'm kinda unclear on that whole "sin" concept, too, to be truthful.)

I don't know what will happen when i die...

...In light of my past, it seems obvious that i have absolutely no problems with my BDSM sexuality and a religious clash - since i have no firm or formal religion in which to hang a problem like that....

...And now i am off to play.
Yes.
Our way.

Have a good day.

 

[Richard49]

I consider myself a Christian
I am also in the BDSM lifestyle

 

[RainCrow]

I am more curious about how other people cope with their own ethical issues as they grow into BDSM. I'd bet a good number of us were raised in religious households. I wonder what kind of issues people have struggled with as a result of religious or ethical conflicts with BDSM. I'll bet there have been some hum-dingers.

I was raised a "religious" Christian, growing up I slowly turned to wiccan... but I still had those Christian roots embedded too deep inside me to pull out. After some extremely hard times in my life I became a born again Christian, which I believe is totally different then your "religious" Christian. Anymore I don't question any of the rules that have been set, I don't know, for me that's not the hard part, some would just call me a blind sheep. But oh well. But I am very bi... very very bi and as most of you know within the Christian beliefs that is not exceptable... I struggle daily with that. Another thing I struggle with daily is the fact that I live with my Top 24/7 and don't plan on getting married.

 

[Lancecastor]

Sex, Religion and The Pearly Gates

Hmmmm... My faith journey has taken on different hues and, I think, a deeper, richer patina over the years.

Raised in an evangelical wasp paradigm, lived in a theology school for a couple of years, became active in a mid-pack wasp sect later, embraced and filled things out with an amalgam of eastern and native thinking later still.

So, I think that Heaven, Hell, Creation, The Creator Inc. and All of It is in each of us and everything, everywhere, all the time.

I think it all adds up and stands for something; possibly Here, maybe There, too, perhaps even Afterwards.

The Great Mystery, it is, it is.

If you've ever watched someone die, it's more than bodily functions ceasing, I suggest.

If you've ever seen or experienced ghosts, it's more than the tangible here and now.

If you've ever had a premonition, you know that a fortelling of things is possible.

All of which points to Something beyond the capacity of these fleshy receivers we dwell inside as spirits.

Even the feeling of caring, of love, or the recognition of something disturbing in another's eyes speaks of something that transcends the body.

I believe there is good and evil and shades in between.

I believe self knowledge and tuning in to the Big Vibe is important.

I cant imagine existing in this vessell without it.

BDSM? It is a mere blip on the canvass of a life & spirit lived, enriched in full. A scintilla of relative importance, really.

Perhaps life is a rainbarrel; fill it with whatever joy your heart knows to be real and true and let it overflow to enrich others too.

Or dry and wither there, the cracks forming until you rot, as will all around you.

Or maybe that's all a load of steaming crap and when you flatline, it's over. Done like dinner.

But I doubt it. Mind you....that's just me;
LC

Thanks, Monster; cool thread.

 

[WillowPuss]

A lot of what I was going to say has already been said, far more eloquently than I would have been able to say it, by others.

One thing that many 'Christians' fail to take note of, to my mind, is the fact that the 'written word of God' was written hundreds of years later by man. Man took the verbal, handed down stories from many different sources. (There are four distinct sources that go to make the first five books; and the number of sources increase/decrease in places.) The bible, therefore, in places, contrdicts itself - and anyone who has ever played Chinese Whispers knows how messages get altered with each telling.

That said, I went off to organised religion faithfully every week. I suppose a turning point for me, apart from having to minutely examine parts of the bible for my theology exam at A level, was a major incident in my mid/late teens. It made me question, and question hard how an 'all-loving God' could allow such things to happen.

I call myself a Christian - tho many would be quick to say that I cannot possibly be one as I do not attend Church. I try my hardest to live in a 'Christian' way. By that, I tend to put otehrs before myself; I help where I can and where such help is accepted; I try to forgive those who have wronged me (but find this sometimes almost impossible). As for my bdsm life precluding me from being 'Christian' ... I don't think so.

Will partaking in a bdsm lifestyle mean that we cannot enter 'heaven'? Again - I don't think so. If murderers and rapists, abusers and child mollesters are taught that by truly repenting before God will allow their sins to be wiped clean, then surely what happens between CONSENTING adults will, by the smae token, IF deemed a sin, be easily forgiven.

(Sorry - probably a load of rubbish - not fully awake here yet!)

willow

 

[RainCrow]

The bible, therefore, in places, contrdicts itself

See now that is something I don't agree with. Where in the bible does it contridict itself? <Shrugs> Thats probably a loaded question <cringes>

Quite honestly I don't believe bdsm is a sin, not at all... it's the before marriage part that I believe is... yes I am guilty of it I will readily admit that.

I don't know I don't go to church I haven't for years, but I do believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savour... I believe his teaching were for our own good. But I also believe... each to his own. If you want to believe something and I want to believe something I am not going to sit that and hit your head trying to get you to believe what I believe, that to me is bull.

Anyway I'll shut up for now

 

[WillowPuss]

See now that is something I don't agree with. Where in the bible does it contridict itself? <Shrugs> Thats probably a loaded question <cringes>

To give you a proper answer, RainCrow, I would have to go dig out all my old books ... but from memory (and I did study this almost 30 years ago now <scream> the story of Noah's Ark is actually 3 (it COULD be 4) different accounts rolled into one. In places it repeats itself, with minor discrepancies in the repeats.
(That is only one example .. there are others, but I remember this one in particular.)

That is not the best of answers ... but I don't think that this is the place for major theological debate

willow

 

[Richard49]

I would suggest to Willow that she read some of the biblical
evidence wriiten by those that believe that have responded to the liberials she is quoting

I also am a graduate of seminary

I graduated with a double major. One of them was Christian eveidences.

(I sure do not have a degree in typing or spelling)

The problem with liberials as they do not allow the bible to interrupt it's self as they would allow other books. Hell they do not believe Shackspear wrote his own stuff.

Anyway for those of us that do believe in live the BDSM lifestyle ...
the bible does not condemn it.

Isn't that the idea of this thread?

 

[monster666]

Well, my idea was just to discuss bondage of all sorts and to see particularly how people balance their spirituality with their sex lives. So yes, that was contained in the idea.

But religion is broader than Christianity. And bondage is broader than ropes and shackles and spreader bars. Every paradigm that we subscribe to that limits us in some way is a form of bondage. Some we hold to because they make us feel safe. Others because we just don't know any better.

The paradigms fostered by religion can be the most restrictive binds we'll ever know. Yet I think that people here are some of the most caring, spiritual people I've ever encountered. So this begs the questions (however convoluted) that inspired me to start the thread - how do we deal with the nearly puritanical paradigms we were spoon fed as children, ones that make us feel safe, and branch out into sexual expression so radically in the face of such paradigms and keep faith and not feel - um, condemned - for lack of a better word.

Risia beautifully summed up how I feel in her reply. But I know people are all different, and I wonder how many still feel conflicted when trying to maintain this sort of balance. I am sure there are people out there feeling like they are doomed to whatever hell they were taught to believe in for their desires.

Anyway for those of us that do believe in live the BDSM lifestyle ...
the bible does not condemn it.

Isn't that the idea of this thread?

 

[SpectreT]

Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'

Nudging this stray back up into the public eye.

 

[cymbidia]

The paradigms fostered by religion can be the most restrictive binds we'll ever know. Yet I think that people here are some of the most caring, spiritual people I've ever encountered.

I guess i need some clarification.

I don't think of "religious" and "spiritual" as the same thing at all.

To my mind, "religious" refers to one who espouses and/or adheres to a set of fixed tenets that pertain to one defined religion or another.

"Spiritual", on the other hand, is one who draws wisdom/serenity/knowledge from the, uh, Universal mind (kind of a cosmic pool stuff that pertains to the human spirit) or one who is open to influences from many sources of such humanistic stuff of the spirit, anyway.

By my definitons, i am spiritual but i am not religious. I think that religious people tend to use the terms interchangeably, though. Is that so?

 

[monster666]

Yes, I think that's right. I was awkwardly trying to say that some things BDSM might not fit those traditional religious tenets, and that people in this forum tend to be very spiritual beings, despite that.

I often wonder how different people balance religion with BDSM, if they do.

So, your distinction of spirituality within and outside religion addresses part of the answer I am looking for.

I guess i need some clarification.

I don't think of "religious" and "spiritual" as the same thing at all.

To my mind, "religious" refers to one who espouses and/or adheres to a set of fixed tenets that pertain to one defined religion or another.

"Spiritual", on the other hand, is one who draws wisdom/serenity/knowledge from the, uh, Universal mind (kind of a cosmic pool stuff that pertains to the human spirit) or one who is open to influences from many sources of such humanistic stuff of the spirit, anyway.

By my definitons, i am spiritual but i am not religious. I think that religious people tend to use the terms interchangeably, though. Is that so?

 

[SpectreT]

Oh, crap, the Philosopher's opening his yap again.....

I have no church. I have a vague and ambiguous faith that seems to incorporate the tenets of several religions. I believe in what I think of as the essential rightness of the universe. Evil happens, Injustice happens, just plain wrong happens. But through the effort of basically good and just people, it works.

This life is, to me, a proving ground and a school house. Our souls come here to test their mettle, and to learn something along the way. At least, that's how it's supposed to work. Like I said before, Evil and Injustice happen. They're there for a reason, too. They're there for us to prove ourselves against, to test our strength and will, so show us a way to be better selves.

So BDSM isn't really against any religion I have, and the major "bondage" in my life right now is financial.

My socio-political views are best described as "Libertarian", so that's another form of "bondage" ruled out.

Hm. The only other constraint I have is in trying to be the best possible me I can, and that puts all kinds of restrictions on what I say or do.

And that's the most liberating kind of "constraint" I can think of.

 

[Sandia]

"You live. You die.
The worms eat you.
The rest is wishful thinking."
--somebody or other, who's dead now.



I do like the image of a thousand Dommes with strap-ons, though, chasing WD down the road.

 

[~*sunkyssed_kym*~]

Organized religion vs. "Alternative" lifestyles

As a newbie to this forum, I'd like to thank all for your warm welcome. I would also like to commend you on your thoughts of God and the lifestyle of Dom/Sub. As a believer, I do not feel that my desires in any way interfere with my relationship with my Creator. Afterall, he made me, and how can that be wrong??? I bellieve He is a loving father, and as long as I follow those tenets set down by Christ; I am in no way offending Him with my desires. In fact, I am celebrating the creation He made! So for all of those who might judge me wrong, maybe they should look at their own houses and see if they can say as much. Life is meant to be embraced, not endured!

Pursue not the outer entanglements, Dwell not in the inner void; Be serene in the oneness of things, And....dualism vanishes by itself. Seng-t'san

 

[cellis]

I have purposely stayed away from this forum until I could articulate my feeling about this subject.

I, too, was raised in a fundamentalist, judeo-christian home. I given a set of rules to live my life by and was told not to questions those rules (bondage in its worst form). And I longed for more, for something to fill the holes that my religion did not.

As an adult, I thought for myself, moved away from the rules that I was given as a child and looked elsewhere for my answers. I am still looking today. I have found some of the answers I seek in Eastern thought and much solice in the stories of the Native American peoples.

There are many forms of bondage that I have encountered along the way. The bonds the tie your soul down. The ones that tie you to the past so that you have no future. Fear is one of the worst forms of bondage.

I am just trying to move beyond the obvious here. Forgive me for rambling.

 

[monster666]

No forgiveness required, cellis. I am glad you posted, and didn't think you were rambling at all. Those bonds that tie the soul down is exactly what this thread is about. Exactly.

Thanks for posting here.

I have purposely stayed away from this forum until I could articulate my feeling about this subject.

I, too, was raised in a fundamentalist, judeo-christian home. I given a set of rules to live my life by and was told not to questions those rules (bondage in its worst form). And I longed for more, for something to fill the holes that my religion did not.

As an adult, I thought for myself, moved away from the rules that I was given as a child and looked elsewhere for my answers. I am still looking today. I have found some of the answers I seek in Eastern thought and much solice in the stories of the Native American peoples.

There are many forms of bondage that I have encountered along the way. The bonds the tie your soul down. The ones that tie you to the past so that you have no future. Fear is one of the worst forms of bondage.

I am just trying to move beyond the obvious here. Forgive me for rambling.

 

[WillowPuss]

There are many forms of bondage that I have encountered along the way. The bonds the tie your soul down. The ones that tie you to the past so that you have no future. Fear is one of the worst forms of bondage.

I understand completely where you are coming from there cellis.

I think some of the forms of bondage you have mentioned are far more restrictive than any bonds the most competant Dom/me could ever tie.

Until very recently, I was in bondage from my past. The guilt and humiliation I lived, through something entirely out of my control, still haunt me from time to time ... but thankfully, those times are now spaced further and further apart. And now that I have found the strength to actually articulate them to my husband/master ... they are so much easier to deal with.

And I sorta went totally off the point there - and have forgotten quite what it was I set out to say in the first place! duh!

But ... I agree with you totally on all you said.

 

[brazenblaze]

As a born again Pagan, I'm not sure that my comments "fit" this discussion, but I had to add my two cents anyway.

All my life I grew up Catholic and heard about going to hell for just about everything. GOD was a loving God...but if you stepped over the line he'd hang you out to dry. I know now that was a very narrow view, but it was the one I was raised with.

I grew up thinking that my "sexual interests" were wrong and punishable.

As I got older I figured things out for myself and found that my "sexual interests" are just that sexual. They don't define how I react to the rest of the world or how I raise my children.

Then I discover Paganism and for the first time in 35 years, I trully fit inside my skin. I can worship and be who I am without the overhang of guilt and fear.

As long as I pursue life with a good heart and a strong mind and do nothing to truly harm another soul...then my life holds unlimited merit.

What I do sexual is not held up for review as long as both parties are consentual and respecting of one another.

Just my two cents.

 

[cymbidia]

It's so very good to see you back here and posting again, Brazenblaze.
Welcome.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is an interesting thread with an opening post that just makes you want to read on.

Catalina

 

[O'Mac]

I'm very comfortable in the belief that as long as we live our lives bringing as much peace and happiness to others, God probably doesn't care what we do in the bedroom.

Nowhere have I seen an 11th Commandment saying "Though shalt not use thine whips and binds for thine woman"

I'm Christian, and very proud of my beliefs and what they mean in my life. I have never felt any shame at my lifestyle choice because I haven't seen anything in scripture saying BDSM is an unholy or sinful act. Adultery and fornication are two sexually-related sins, but BDSM in general has no mention that I have seen.

Sex, Bondage, and Religion is a non-argument in my opinion.