Shit stirrer

[lovecraft68]

Perhaps we move this thread back to the unifying topic of LW, rather than the politics of organised religion? That's some shit that doesn't need stirring.

Those trolls do have an uncomplicated purity to them, I'll give them that.

BTW, many of the worst group over there are men screeching their hatred based on the misogynistic morality taught to them in their moral majority family values upbringing.

Opps, I did it again.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Yeah, I didn't like how the overall story turned out, but it wasn't the reason I removed it, long story there and not for public consumption.

Before I go further, and under the assumption you were raised in faith, what would your parents think of you writing porn? Especially delving into non con a bit? I'm going to hazard a guess this is a dirty secret for you, maybe even from your husband/boyfriend. Know why? Because according to your faith, part of you feels its wrong. Is it? Of course not, you do you, and if it feels good do it...do as thou wilt unless you're harming yourself or others.

All those things are how I feel, because the only moral code and rules I have are the ones I set for myself-and I can sin against myself by making mistakes within my set rules-you're living by another's rules, rules set in archaic times.

As for the Christian being the villain, if you don't think that type of upbringing leads to that type of rebellious behavior, you're either naive or living in denial. Generations of women were raised under the thumb of men thanks to 'religion". Less common today, but its still out there. Women raised in that type of environment, and usually very conservative politically as well, and think its okay are victims of religious and political stolkholm syndrome.

To be clear, in my story, the church might have been shown in a bad light, and that was extended to the ex-boyfriend because he's a man. Men in church have far less restrictions, all part of the sexism.

FWIW the difference between us is you want to have at it with an atheist/satanist/heathen whatever character, is I wouldn't care. Why? Because when you don't believe in anything what is there to take personally? Or maybe that's just me. And up until fairly recent times the non believer was always the bad guy, back in the white hat black hat style of story telling.

Last point...your defensiveness shows your own doubts. Not in your personal faith, but the religion that paints it in a bad light.

My story was accurate for far too many women for far too long, and what happened, is what it can lead to. My parents began going to a Pentecostal holy roller bible to the letter church, made me go a bunch of times. Hated it, but let me tell you, the girls in that church were raised like they were living in another time, and when they went wild, they went wild and often with the wrong type of guy. The tag of the story was careful what you wish for, and too may young women, thanks to their "Godly" upbringing have found out the hard way.

To be fair, young men too, fall in with the first woman to seduce them, and she's a piece of work, drugs, gangs, all that stuff that looks so inviting because you've been raised like a sheltered prig. Parents in those churches do their kids no favors raising them that way.

Look at this idiot football player, telling a room full of women who are there on the proudest day of their lives that they worked so hard for and he pretty much told them to go back in the kitchen...because of his religious views.

I'm really not going to get into a religious debate with you in this forum. If you or any one else really wants to talk about it, I'd be glad, but I won't do it here.
That said, I will answer your assumptions about my writing.

Was I raised Christian? Yes, and I still hold to that belief.
Do my parents know about my erotica? My dad does, but my mom doesn't... but that isn't because I secretly think it's wrong, it's because I don't want to upset her.
Does my husband know? I've been asked this one before. I would not ever want to be in a marriage of deception and lies, and I think that anyone who hides their writing from their spouse is just creating problems for the future. I would never claim that my husband loves the things I write, but in my marriage I've ensured that we at least have an understanding and that's good enough for me
How does my belief factor into my writing? These are stories... they don't inform my beliefs or vice versa. I write plenty of sexual situations that most people here would consider immoral, regardless of their religious beliefs. So what? I could write about murder or robberies or anything else, and I wouldn't approve of those things either.

---

Now to address the character from your story. It wasn't the fact that you display a Christian character who was evil... One of the biggest ideas in Christianity is to watch out for "wolves in sheep's clothing". Simply having a hypocritical Christian character would not have warranted a response. Those people are extremely common.

But the character you wrote was a ridiculous caricature of a human, and you felt the need to tie every one of his failings somehow back into his faith.

Look, you don't even have to take my word for it. I asked a friend (who is not a Christian) to read the story, and their response was basically, "Who hurt this author? " because of the vapid anti-religious content.

So it isn't just me. Lol

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm really not going to get into a religious debate with you in this forum. If you or any one else really wants to talk about it, I'd be glad, but I won't do it here.
That said, I will answer your assumptions about my writing.

Was I raised Christian? Yes, and I still hold to that belief.
Do my parents know about my erotica? My dad does, but my mom doesn't... but that isn't because I secretly think it's wrong, it's because I don't want to upset her.
Does my husband know? I've been asked this one before. I would not ever want to be in a marriage of deception and lies, and I think that anyone who hides their writing from their spouse is just creating problems for the future. I would never claim that my husband loves the things I write, but in my marriage I've ensured that we at least have and understanding and that's good enough for me
How does my belief factor into my writing? These are stories... they don't inform my beliefs or vice versa. I write plenty of sexual situations that most people here would consider immoral, regardless of their religious beliefs. So what? I could write about murder or robberies or anything else, and I wouldn't approve of those things either.

---

Now to address the character from your story. It wasn't the fact that you display a Christian character who was evil... One of the biggest ideas in Christianity is to watch out for "wolves in sheep's clothing". Simply having a hypocritical Christian character would not have warranted a response. Those people are extremely common.

But the character you wrote was a ridiculous caricature of a human, and you felt the need to tie every one of his failings somehow back into his faith.

Look, you don't even have to take my word for it. I asked a friend (who is not a Christian) to read the story, and their response was basically, "Who hurt this author? " because of the vapid anti-religious content.

So it isn't just me. Lol

You seem to have found a mature, workable way to balance religious, family, and writing concerns. That's good. It's fairly easy for me, because I'm a divorced empty-nester with no religious ties, but I realize it's much more challenging for many writers.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I agree that this is probably not the place for a discussion about religion. I would definitely enjoy a meaningful discussion and I must say that I agree with much of what LC said about the two most prominent religions of the world but still, this likely isn't the place. Not because it would inflame some people and stir some crap because we definitely had worse, and not because it would break forum rules as I don't really give a fuck about those, but because the thread would likely get locked before we even had a chance to get the discussion going properly.
That being said, you totally need to let us read the story in question @lovecraft68. There were shots fired so we need to make up our own minds

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I agree that this is probably not the place for a discussion about religion. I would definitely enjoy a meaningful discussion and I must say that I agree with much of what LC said about the two most prominent religions of the world but still, this likely isn't the place. Not because it would inflame some people and stir some crap because we definitely had worse, and not because it would break forum rules as I don't really give a fuck about those, but because the thread would likely get locked before we even had a chance to get the discussion going properly.
That being said, you totally need to let us read the story in question @lovecraft68. There were shots fired so we need to make up our own minds

I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts. It's NC/R that's I found unpleasant.

 

[SimonDoom]

I agree that this is probably not the place for a discussion about religion.

I think it should be OK to discuss things like religion in this forum as long as it's tethered to our writing, what motivates our writing, etc. and not "Religion good/religion bad," which belongs elsewhere. Circling back to the original post, our deeply held religious and moral beliefs are going to influence how we feel about sex outside marriage, whether it's consented to or not. Those beliefs can add interest and erotic sizzle to a story, as well, depending upon how they are handled. I personally find erotica more erotic when a character wants to participate in an erotic activity but faces internal or social pressure against it. Religion is one, but not the only, source of that pressure.

 

[lovecraft68]

I agree that this is probably not the place for a discussion about religion. I would definitely enjoy a meaningful discussion and I must say that I agree with much of what LC said about the two most prominent religions of the world but still, this likely isn't the place. Not because it would inflame some people and stir some crap because we definitely had worse, and not because it would break forum rules as I don't really give a fuck about those, but because the thread would likely get locked before we even had a chance to get the discussion going properly.
That being said, you totally need to let us read the story in question @lovecraft68. There were shots fired so we need to make up our own minds

The story is no longer here, there is a for sale version of it.

It was a non con story, but mine was meant to be reluctance/Dub con which is something I explore from time to time, but it's a really fine line to walk, and I'm never sure if I'm crossing it or not. I asked @MediocreAuthor for some feedback, and she provided some, the gist of which was the story leaned to far across the line at points. Another person agreed, and the comments were mixed, but again, reception wasn't the reason for removing it, there was a conflict of sorts and I had to make a choice.

The part MA is discussing here is the MC was brought up in church, her father a deacon in his church, and needless to say she was raised very sheltered and the entire premise of the story is she rebels by smoking weed with a friend, drinking here and there and its Halloween and she's going to a party and planning to "get it and get it good"

She's not a virgin, she had a boyfriend in the church, but he had no experience and everything was quick and rushed from sneaking around. He was also-and this is a shot at men, not church-one way as in blow me, and I'll do nothing for you.

The antagonist makes some not so flattering comments about how some church types raise their kids, but its not an all-out assault on religion. Those can be found in my EH series, or here in a story called Driven by Demons that I co-wrote with XelliebabeX, the male MC in that one really goes to town on "God"

MA did not mention being upset at the portrayal of the church in her feedback, she brought it up here, but once I got to know her a bit I kind of figured it would have.

If you want to PM me an e-mail, I'll send you the story.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I think it should be OK to discuss things like religion in this forum as long as it's tethered to our writing, what motivates our writing, etc. and not "Religion good/religion bad," which belongs elsewhere.

I think it should be okay to discuss religion, period. It's an arbitrary rule because politics and worse topics are allowed on other Lit forums. It should be fine here as well because we are not children who are unable to set limitations to the tone of their discussion. If some individual does go over the board then that individual should get warned and eventually receive a temporary ban or something. We have seen interesting topics being closed so many times only because of one person, usually someone's alt or somebody with five posts on them. I simply don't understand that approach to moderating, but as with many things Lit, I gave up on trying to understand.
It should be fine, but as I said, it's not up to you or me. If we start it, it will get locked sooner or later.

 

[lovecraft68]

Worth saying my comment to Keith where I mention religion was not meant as a troll or to set things off, it was the first example for me that came to mind regarding knowledge vs writing what you know, with know meaning you've lived it, experienced it, have feelings about it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

But we shouldn't need to thread on our toes like that, should we? I mean, I understand what Simon says but I don't see how it is possible to talk meaningfully about religion in relation to our writing without touching on the morality issues eventually. It should be a topic we can discuss without producing hate. We are all intellectually capable adults here, aren't we?

 

[alohadave]

It should be fine here as well because we are not children who are unable to set limitations to the tone of their discussion.

Is this your first time on the internet? /s

'Adults' have proven time and again that they are completely unable to set and maintain boundaries when religion and politics are involved, unless someone external to them enforces those limits and boundaries.

 

[Euphony]

It should be a topic we can discuss without producing hate.

*Should* but the AH has taught us even the most inoffensive topic can spiral out of control when a troll is determined. And religion is quite a few rungs higher on the "libel to cause fracturing."

We are all intellectually capable adults here, aren't we?

Intelligence and civility are two separate traits. Some of the more highly talented writers here are also regularly assholes, even in their work and towards their followers.

Some fellow internet stranger isn't going to get their benefit of the doubt.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

*Should* but the AH has taught us even the most inoffensive topic can spiral out of control when a troll is determined. And religion is quite a few rungs higher on the "libel to cause fracturing."

And such trolls can be warned/banned, and their posts redacted. We shouldn't all be kept in the same pen with those.

Intelligence and civility are two separate traits. Some of the more highly talented writers here are also regularly assholes, even in their work and towards their followers.

And being an intellectual is not about any of those two traits even if it does touch on them. An intellectual is someone who understands the value of discussion and is able to get involved in it without becoming a raving lunatic.

 

[SimonDoom]

But we shouldn't need to thread on our toes like that, should we? I mean, I understand what Simon says but I don't see how it is possible to talk meaningfully about religion in relation to our writing without touching on the morality issues eventually. It should be a topic we can discuss without producing hate. We are all intellectually capable adults here, aren't we?

"Should" we be able to? Of course! But look at the history of threads in this forum and how often they end up in acrimony. As much as I value freedom of speech, I think there's a time and a place for everything, and history shows it's probably better in this particular forum to place some limits so things don't devolve into toxicity. It would be nice if it were otherwise, but it isn't. If it were up to me, I would handle it a bit differently, and just quickly delete any posts that cross the line into personal attacks, and leave the thread going.

I don't quite agree with you on the point in your second sentence, because I think it is possible to talk about how religion and morality influence a story without getting into one's personal views about the rightness or wrongness of the particular moral code. The former can foster interesting conversations while the latter will tend to result in bad feelings. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it's hard to deny from past experience that it is.

 

[Euphony]

And such trolls can be warned/banned, and their posts redacted. We shouldn't all be kept in the same pen with those.

So where do you plan to move the discussion where that level of moderation exists? Cause it sure ain't here.

And being an intellectual is not about any of those two traits even if it does touch on them. An intellectual is someone who understands the value of discussion and is able to get involved in it without becoming a raving lunatic.

You're not wrong. That's also the type of pedantry religious discussions are known to derail on. (real world world context rank far lower on the ire scale and less threatening than something closer to someone's beliefs on the nature of their very existence.)

I applaud your appeal to AHers' better natures, I've just been here long enough to be past relying on that or guardrails keeping the peace.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don't quite agree with you on the point in your second sentence, because I think it is possible to talk about how religion and morality influence a story without getting into one's personal views about the rightness or wrongness of the particular moral code. The former can foster interesting conversations while the latter will tend to result in bad feelings. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it's hard to deny from past experience that it is.

I didn't mean it like that. A good part of any religion is about morality, about right and wrong. What I meant is that religious influence will color the morality of the character in the story and thus will come out as a discussion topic eventually. We can discuss that influence on the character's morals, without resorting to the "This tenet of Christianity or Islam is immoral" discussion. That discussion would really go nowhere.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

So where do you plan to move the discussion where that level of moderation exists? Cause it sure ain't here.

You're not wrong. That's also the type of pedantry religious discussions are known to derail on. (real world world context rank far lower on the ire scale and less threatening than something closer to someone's beliefs on the nature of their very existence.)

I applaud your appeal to AHers' better natures, I've just been here long enough to be past relying on that or guardrails keeping the peace.

I agree with what you say and I know this isn't the place. I was just touching on the reasons why it isn't.

 

[SimonDoom]

I didn't mean it like that. A good part of any religion is about morality, about right and wrong. What I meant is that religious influence will color the morality of the character in the story and thus will come out as a discussion topic eventually. We can discuss that influence on the character's morals, without resorting to the "This tenet of Christianity or Islam is immoral" discussion. That discussion would really go nowhere.

I agree with that.

 

[lovecraft68]

I agree with what you say and I know this isn't the place. I was just touching on the reasons why it isn't.

But if we're talking about it within the context of how it affects writing as in a character's behavior and motivations based on their religion or lack thereof, why isn't it the place for it?

My pointing out how much death has been caused by people exerting their faith upon others is relevant to the tone of how myself, and others, will portray it in a story.

We write heroes with ideals we generally believe in, and our villains will generally be the antithesis of what we believe in.

If people take it to personally, that's on the person. Its a valid discussion here, and I'd rather see a polarizing topic taken on than some of the meaningless fluff we get here at times.

 

[SimonDoom]

But if we're talking about it within the context of how it affects writing as in a character's behavior and motivations based on their religion or lack thereof, why isn't it the place for it?

My pointing out how much death has been caused by people exerting their faith upon others is relevant to the tone of how myself, and others, will portray it in a story.

We write heroes with ideals we generally believe in, and our villains will generally be the antithesis of what we believe in.

If people take it to personally, that's on the person. Its a valid discussion here, and I'd rather see a polarizing topic taken on than some of the meaningless fluff we get here at times.

There's a way to do this that avoids "meaningless fluff" while also steering clear of potential forum content limits. That way is to discuss how a belief system affects characters in your particular story. You can do that fully and intelligently without telling people about your personal experience or making broad pronouncements about belief systems as a whole, which can devolve into arguments among members about whether religion is good or bad. You can get your point across fully without going there. I personally have no objection to vigorous arguments over religion, but I can understand why the AH moderator might think otherwise in this forum.

 

[Plathfan]

I think it should be okay to discuss religion, period. It's an arbitrary rule because politics and worse topics are allowed on other Lit forums. It should be fine here as well because we are not children who are unable to set limitations to the tone of their discussion. If some individual does go over the board then that individual should get warned and eventually receive a temporary ban or something. We have seen interesting topics being closed so many times only because of one person, usually someone's alt or somebody with five posts on them. I simply don't understand that approach to moderating, but as with many things Lit, I gave up on trying to understand.
It should be fine, but as I said, it's not up to you or me. If we start it, it will get locked sooner or later.

The problem with discussing matters of faith, or the lack of it, is that some tend to take it personally and react emotionally, particularly when they lack a strong counterargument.

Back to the thread. Religion has a close connection to the LW shit-stirrers. For most of them, their stance stems from a religious or communal background. Even if they are not regular churchgoers, they were brought up in this atmosphere, which is evident in their comments and the types of stories they prefer. These stories are often preachy and present a simplistic duality, almost always ending with good prevailing and consequences for evil. But as much as it's puzzling that people bring such a conservative moral view to a porn site, there are also issues at the other end of the spectrum.

As I've mentioned previously, for atheists who don't believe in anything beyond the realm of the scientific and empirical, concepts like the soul or anything metaphysical lose their relevance. Consequently, ethical or moral considerations also lose their significance. This doesn't necessarily imply malevolence, but rather a detachment from such concerns. For example, why would someone be swayed by emotions that they see as nothing more than chemo-electrical brainstorms? Essentially, an atheist operates like a machine, processing everything based on logic, feasibility, and effectiveness. Ethics aren't a priority when the primary concern is simply whether something is beneficial or not.

For instance, a true atheist might respond with a grimace to any mention of fidelity or the sanctity of marriage. To them, sex is merely physical friction intended for pleasure. They may regard monogamy as a prehistoric remnant of a patriarchal society designed to suppress women and their sexual freedom. Loyalty, for them, is seen as nothing more than a superstition of the naive, and they may feel no moral inhibition about pursuing married women to "liberate" them. They might even have the audacity to claim credit for training and heightening their libido, suggesting you should be grateful for their intervention.

I have no problem with fiction that portrays extramarital fun; after all, that's what this site is all about. What makes me uncomfortable is when some who embrace the "lifestyle" act like missionaries, imposing their worldview onto this side, as if the rest of us haven't seen the light yet.

Many who claim to be atheists don't truly fit the definition. They are often spiritual, sensitive, and moral beings. Yet, their rejection of established religion leads them to deny that they are not strictly rational and that they do believe in something, even if they can't pinpoint exactly what it is. Nonetheless, this doesn't stop them from being patronizing toward those who can.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

But if we're talking about it within the context of how it affects writing as in a character's behavior and motivations based on their religion or lack thereof, why isn't it the place for it?

My pointing out how much death has been caused by people exerting their faith upon others is relevant to the tone of how myself, and others, will portray it in a story.

We write heroes with ideals we generally believe in, and our villains will generally be the antithesis of what we believe in.

If people take it to personally, that's on the person. Its a valid discussion here, and I'd rather see a polarizing topic taken on than some of the meaningless fluff we get here at times.

I agree with all you said, but previous experience says that the moderator won't see it in the same light and that sooner or later the topic will get locked. I wish it could be different and I agree that this forum sorely needs more serious discussions that touch on complex subjects such as faith and morality. I mean, I am willing to give it a go anyway, even if I already know what the mod's reaction will be.

 

[StillStunned]

As I've mentioned previously, for atheists who don't believe in anything beyond the realm of the scientific and empirical, concepts like the soul or anything metaphysical lose their relevance. Consequently, ethical or moral considerations also lose their significance. This doesn't necessarily imply malevolence, but rather a detachment from such concerns. For example, why would someone be swayed by emotions that they see as nothing more than chemo-electrical brainstorms? Essentially, an atheist operates like a machine, processing everything based on logic, feasibility, and effectiveness. Ethics aren't a priority when the primary concern is simply whether something is beneficial or not.

For instance, a true atheist might respond with a grimace to any mention of fidelity or the sanctity of marriage. To them, sex is merely physical friction intended for pleasure. They may regard monogamy as a prehistoric remnant of a patriarchal society designed to suppress women and their sexual freedom. Loyalty, for them, is seen as nothing more than a superstition of the naive, and they may feel no moral inhibition about pursuing married women to "liberate" them. They might even have the audacity to claim credit for training and heightening their libido, suggesting you should be grateful for their intervention.

{...]

Many who claim to be atheists don't truly fit the definition. They are often spiritual, sensitive, and moral beings. Yet, their rejection of established religion leads them to deny that they are not strictly rational and that they do believe in something, even if they can't pinpoint exactly what it is. Nonetheless, this doesn't stop them from being patronizing toward those who can.

You realise that atheism literally means "a system without deities", right? From the Greek "theos", meaning deity, and the prefix "a-" to indicate an absence. That is the definition of an atheist: someone who rejects the idea of a deity.

And you realise that a person can have morals, and a sense of decency and compassion towards other people even while rejecting the idea of a deity, simply out of empathy with or awareness of others?

 

[TheLobster]

And you realise that a person can have morals, and a sense of decency and compassion towards other people even while rejecting the idea of a deity, simply out of empathy with or awareness of others?

I swear, I feel like it’s early 2000s again and internet is again abuzz with the same trite debates of theists vs non-theists. Heck, it’s even on a web forum, too, just like in those days!

 

[Plathfan]

You realise that atheism literally means "a system without deities", right? From the Greek "theos", meaning deity, and the prefix "a-" to indicate an absence. That is the definition of an atheist: someone who rejects the idea of a deity.

And you realise that a person can have morals, and a sense of decency and compassion towards other people even while rejecting the idea of a deity, simply out of empathy with or awareness of others?

But without a deity, or any metaphysical concept you choose, this world is nothing but matter chaotically scattered through space. Everything is accidental and meaningless. What, then, is the meaning of love or compassion if these feelings are merely the random product of chemical processes?