So when did you first figure out that you were heterosexual?

[Stella_Omega]

Is there any reason to think there is a gender divide here--a greater flexibility say in female sexuality than in male sexuality, or the reverse?

I was certain that I was hetero in my early teens, but I've had gay friends come out as late as mid to late twenties after dating girls.

ThoMac, I don't think so -- but there is very visibly a greater pressure on men to deny any possible attraction to other men, somewhat less pressure on women. It's hard to seperate the goldfish from the water in the bowl, yanno?

 

[beebeeto]

ThoMac, I don't think so -- but there is very visibly a greater pressure on men to deny any possible attraction to other men, somewhat less pressure on women. It's hard to seperate the goldfish from the water in the bowl, yanno?

Many heterosexual women are not repulsed by the idea of a sexual relation with another women.They're not exited by it either.

Heterosexual men often manifest quite an aversion to the idea of homosexual sex,their whole body seems to tense up and they might even shudder.These are Not homophobic men,they can have good friendships with homosexual men.Their repulsion at the thought seems too physical to be nothing more than social conditioning.

 

[Netzach]

There are days when I do not feel like doing the whole dominating phone conversation thing, usually when I feel like making money in a more passive listening way, ironic...anyway...when I fire up ye old phone sex gal who is of the generalist variety "what are you into, oooh naughty, let's do it baby" variety....

without making any particular overtures in ANY direction...

about 99 percent of the callers want to talk to me about
1. watching the wife with a more endowed guy or the gf or "me" as their pretend gf.

2.and about 85 percent of THEM want to fluff, suck him off, or eat cream pies.

I am NOT SHITTING.

It's not how men act when people are watching, it's how they act when they're SURE no one is watching.

Even if the percentage of guys who will actually follow through on these desires is teeny tiny, the percentage of guys with these desires is no small minority. Imagine if we could be up front about this.

 

[smexygirl]

i was clear about it when the girl fingering me didn't turn me on.

 

[beebeeto]

There are days when I do not feel like doing the whole dominating phone conversation thing, usually when I feel like making money in a more passive listening way, ironic...anyway...when I fire up ye old phone sex gal who is of the generalist variety "what are you into, oooh naughty, let's do it baby" variety....

without making any particular overtures in ANY direction...

about 99 percent of the callers want to talk to me about
1. watching the wife with a more endowed guy or the gf or "me" as their pretend gf.

2.and about 85 percent of THEM want to fluff, suck him off, or eat cream pies.

I am NOT SHITTING.

It's not how men act when people are watching, it's how they act when they're SURE no one is watching.

Even if the percentage of guys who will actually follow through on these desires is teeny tiny, the percentage of guys with these desires is no small minority. Imagine if we could be up front about this.

This has made my day!The thoughts that will be going through my mind next time I'm in male company.I'll try to keep the smirk off my face ....

 

[Stella_Omega]

Many heterosexual women are not repulsed by the idea of a sexual relation with another women.They're not exited by it either.

Heterosexual men often manifest quite an aversion to the idea of homosexual sex,their whole body seems to tense up and they might even shudder.These are Not homophobic men,they can have good friendships with homosexual men.Their repulsion at the thought seems too physical to be nothing more than social conditioning.

There's no "nothing more" about social conditioning, it's huge...

 

[beebeeto]

I m starting to realize I might have underestimated the power of social conditioning.

Perhaps if men could be more open about their desires there would be less misogyny?

 

[Shankara20]

Perhaps if men could be more open about their desires there would be less misogyny?

That is one little step to reducing misogyny, sure...

 

[FurryFury]

I will say this question is one I like to ask people at PFLAG that are so sure being gay is sinful, a choice and whatnot. LOL

 

[Stella_Omega]

I m starting to realize I might have underestimated the power of social conditioning.

Perhaps if men could be more open about their desires there would be less misogyny?

Homophobia, you mean? Yes, i think so. Guys who really don't care about other men don't necessarily express physical revulsion-- Many of them just express that the concept is meaningless to them.

Social conditioning is the water we swim in, yanno? It pervades our day to day life without us even noticing.

 

[Keroin]

Homophobia, you mean? Yes, i think so. Guys who really don't care about other men don't necessarily express physical revulsion-- Many of them just express that the concept is meaningless to them.

Social conditioning is the water we swim in, yanno? It pervades our day to day life without us even noticing.

I'm going to stick my neck out a bit here, well, L's neck, I guess.

L is not homophobic. He fully supports equal rights for everyone regardless of sexual orientation. One of his brothers is gay and was married for over ten years. L loves his brother and wishes for nothing but his happiness. He was very welcoming, loving and kind whenever his brother and husband stayed with us. In every way that matters, L is accepting and fair.

Here's the but.

When we have spoken frankly, and privately, on the subject, L has told me that despite everything he knows logically, he feels strongly, physically repulsed when he sees two men together. He literally cannot stop the feeling. He would never outwardly display this, and never has, but he says he has an uncontrollable physical reaction if he sees men being affectionate (romantically) or sexual with each other.

I asked him about women. He said that while he does not feel the same strong physical reaction, he is not turned on by two women together either - as so many other men seem to be.

It bothers him a great deal that he has these feelings. Especially when he is around his brother. This is not a "fags are evil" kind of situation, at all. You will never hear him say anything negative about gay men, no jokes, nothing. Yes, the era and part of the world he grew up was your typical homophobic environment, but I really doubt this is social conditioning at work. He genuinely wishes he did not have this reaction.

 

[Netzach]

I'm going to stick my neck out a bit here, well, L's neck, I guess.

L is not homophobic. He fully supports equal rights for everyone regardless of sexual orientation. One of his brothers is gay and was married for over ten years. L loves his brother and wishes for nothing but his happiness. He was very welcoming, loving and kind whenever his brother and husband stayed with us. In every way that matters, L is accepting and fair.

Here's the but.

When we have spoken frankly, and privately, on the subject, L has told me that despite everything he knows logically, he feels strongly, physically repulsed when he sees two men together. He literally cannot stop the feeling. He would never outwardly display this, and never has, but he says he has an uncontrollable physical reaction if he sees men being affectionate (romantically) or sexual with each other.

I asked him about women. He said that while he does not feel the same strong physical reaction, he is not turned on by two women together either - as so many other men seem to be.

It bothers him a great deal that he has these feelings. Especially when he is around his brother. This is not a "fags are evil" kind of situation, at all. You will never hear him say anything negative about gay men, no jokes, nothing. Yes, the era and part of the world he grew up was your typical homophobic environment, but I really doubt this is social conditioning at work. He genuinely wishes he did not have this reaction.

You don't just consciously decide "ok no more social conditioning" that's the problem with racism and homophobia and whatever you got printed into your head when you were 2, 4, 10.

 

[Shankara20]

You don't just consciously decide "ok no more social conditioning" that's the problem with racism and homophobia and whatever you got printed into your head when you were 2, 4, 10.

Agree - I'm 65 and I still struggle with occasional racist reactions I have despite working since about 1970 to see all as equal. The most comfort I give myself is saying that I have greatly reduced the amount of action I take based on my POV.

There is no way I have yet found to remove all my actions based on taught bias, but I am improving. It is the same with sexual orientation and with gender rolls in general.

I am bi-sexual, I cross dress. I still struggle with expectations of behavior based on old programing.

Again, the best I can do when I see myself acting or thinking from old POVs is say "well damn, I'm being ol' Shank once again" and try to correct in the moment.

 

[Curious_in_Cali]

It was when I realized that I was actually trying to be that I realized I was not.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Agree - I'm 65 and I still struggle with occasional racist reactions I have despite working since about 1970 to see all as equal. The most comfort I give myself is saying that I have greatly reduced the amount of action I take based on my POV.

There is no way I have yet found to remove all my actions based on taught bias, but I am improving. It is the same with sexual orientation and with gender rolls in general.

I am bi-sexual, I cross dress. I still struggle with expectations of behavior based on old programing.

Again, the best I can do when I see myself acting or thinking from old POVs is say "well damn, I'm being ol' Shank once again" and try to correct in the moment.

speaking as someone who has fought similar interior battles;

This stuff is the right stuff.

 

[Shankara20]

"The most important question that any human being can ever ask is, ‘how do you know that?’."

I heard this last week on the radio. I have no idea if someone famous or smart or famously smart said it, but it smacked me as a great question for just about every conversation that includes a statement for fact:

I'm a bi-switch
I'm a Democrat
Poor people use drugs
My father is smart
I'm white
Your an African American​

Where we are in a process of claiming who we are for ourselves and not from some outside assigning authoritarian will influence how we answer "how do you know that?".

I am having a lot of fun in self-play with that question (not THAT sort of self-play, wow, get your mind out of the gutter). In local political discussions someone will say something and I'll respond only to hear my mind ask itself "and how do we know that?". Then I'm off to do some research

So the next time you ask a child of 3 if they are a boy or a girl when they respond ask them next "and how do you know that?".

I'd be interested in the reply.

 

[Shankara20]

speaking as someone who has fought similar interior battles;

This stuff is the right stuff.

I just knew there was something about you I like...

 

[Keroin]

You don't just consciously decide "ok no more social conditioning" that's the problem with racism and homophobia and whatever you got printed into your head when you were 2, 4, 10.

Agree - I'm 65 and I still struggle with occasional racist reactions I have despite working since about 1970 to see all as equal. The most comfort I give myself is saying that I have greatly reduced the amount of action I take based on my POV.

There is no way I have yet found to remove all my actions based on taught bias, but I am improving. It is the same with sexual orientation and with gender rolls in general.

I am bi-sexual, I cross dress. I still struggle with expectations of behavior based on old programing.

Again, the best I can do when I see myself acting or thinking from old POVs is say "well damn, I'm being ol' Shank once again" and try to correct in the moment.

OK, I get what you're saying. I guess the good thing is that he is very aware of his reaction, he doesn't like it, and is working to understand and combat it. If you met him and saw him around two gay men displaying affection, you would likely never know he even had an issue at all. But it is interesting the way he describes it to me, as if his brain and his body are at war in that moment.

 

[intothewoods]

OK, I get what you're saying. I guess the good thing is that he is very aware of his reaction, he doesn't like it, and is working to understand and combat it. If you met him and saw him around two gay men displaying affection, you would likely never know he even had an issue at all. But it is interesting the way he describes it to me, as if his brain and his body are at war in that moment.

I think it's pretty common actually. I've dated really progressive, pro-gay rights liberal guys who have all said, yep, I feel repulsed if I see it in person. These guys don't make jokes, have gay friends/family members with whom they are close, etc., but the gut reaction is what it is.

Maybe, hopefully, it will change, but growing up those guys all learned at an early age -- THAT'S disgusting or that's a fag, you're not a FAG are you???

I'm hopeful it will be different. I mean, damn, my son goes, duh, two boys can marry each other. Like, why are you boring me with this NON-ISSUE. All of his friends are the same. They don't give nice pro-gay speeches. They just do not give a shit. Of course, we are elitist socialist urbanites but things are changing everywhere. I think that repulsion will be really, really hard to shake, but I'm hopeful we'll get there eventually.

 

[Netzach]

I think it's pretty common actually. I've dated really progressive, pro-gay rights liberal guys who have all said, yep, I feel repulsed if I see it in person. These guys don't make jokes, have gay friends/family members with whom they are close, etc., but the gut reaction is what it is.

Maybe, hopefully, it will change, but growing up those guys all learned at an early age -- THAT'S disgusting or that's a fag, you're not a FAG are you???

I'm hopeful it will be different. I mean, damn, my son goes, duh, two boys can marry each other. Like, why are you boring me with this NON-ISSUE. All of his friends are the same. They don't give nice pro-gay speeches. They just do not give a shit. Of course, we are elitist socialist urbanites but things are changing everywhere. I think that repulsion will be really, really hard to shake, but I'm hopeful we'll get there eventually.

Sure, that's out there, I guess, and while those guys aren't active agents of badness in the world, I don't think I could be in a relationship with someone like that though, it would self-select out.

It's led me to a strong "I don't do monosexuals" stance. It never works.

On the dude side, generally they can't go where I go, they won't feel safe where I feel safe, they'll be grossed out by my imagination and my internal erotic world.

I have dated straight guys who don't have that reaction, but aren't turned on either. They're out there, and there'll be more.

I think that "really don't give a shit" is starting to take up more and more of a social and visceral part of the imagination as well.

 

[graceanne]

You don't just consciously decide "ok no more social conditioning" that's the problem with racism and homophobia and whatever you got printed into your head when you were 2, 4, 10.

Exactly. This is true with my sexism. I know that men aren't inferior and that not all men are assholes, users, and abusers. I know this. However, I still don't really want to sit next to strange men, I don't make friends with men, etc. One of my favorite parts of being married is not having to deal with men I don't know anymore.

 

[Netzach]

Exactly. This is true with my sexism. I know that men aren't inferior and that not all men are assholes, users, and abusers. I know this. However, I still don't really want to sit next to strange men, I don't make friends with men, etc. One of my favorite parts of being married is not having to deal with men I don't know anymore.

Yeah, I wouldn't even call that sexism so much as bias, bias based on bad experiences, or even self-preservation in action.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Many heterosexual women are not repulsed by the idea of a sexual relation with another women.They're not exited by it either.

Heterosexual men often manifest quite an aversion to the idea of homosexual sex,their whole body seems to tense up and they might even shudder.These are Not homophobic men,they can have good friendships with homosexual men.Their repulsion at the thought seems too physical to be nothing more than social conditioning.

I'll have to disagree, if these men happened to be living in ancient Greece they'd think it was very natural to have sex with another man. They most likely would have considered it very odd for a man not to do so. Which of course is social conditioning.

As for Misogyny, you may want to read this. http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/misogyny.shtml

 

[marieR19]

"The most important question that any human being can ever ask is, ‘how do you know that?’."

I heard this last week on the radio. I have no idea if someone famous or smart or famously smart said it, but it smacked me as a great question for just about every conversation that includes a statement for fact:

I'm a bi-switch
I'm a Democrat
Poor people use drugs
My father is smart
I'm white
Your an African American​

{}
So the next time you ask a child of 3 if they are a boy or a girl when they respond ask them next "and how do you know that?".

I'd be interested in the reply.

I like that. And it's definitely a loaded question, no matter what the situation. "How do you know you are Irish?" um, because that's what my parents told me? (what they didn't tell me until much later is I'm part German too)

"How do you know you are white?" Because that's what society has labeled me. I have fair skin, roundish eyes, blondish hair.... Apparently this makes me white (although seriously, isn't it more of a peach/really-soft-brown color? At least, my skin is).

I've turned the whole "how do you know you're straight?" question on many people who've asked me that about being gay. .... They never seem in a hurry to answer.

Social conditioning is a... loaded topic. I grew up with a few specific incidents that made me reluctant to tell my parents when I was ready to come out... But I never felt ashamed, never felt it was wrong, that there was something wrong with me, anything like that, even though I had heard those sort of opinions before.

 

[graceanne]

Yeah, I wouldn't even call that sexism so much as bias, bias based on bad experiences, or even self-preservation in action.

Well, I like your view better, however it'd still be considered racism if someone disliked most black people because some black people screwed them over.