So when did you first figure out that you were heterosexual?

[Stella_Omega]

You can have enjoyable sex with people you're not sexually attracted to.

You can have enjoyable sex with people you're not sexually attracted to.

You can have enjoyable sex with people you're not sexually attracted to.

Once more, with feeling:

You can have enjoyable sex with people you're not sexually attracted to.

Maybe, if the bar is set low.

I have had sex that wasn't awful, with people I wasn't attracted to. And in that sense, I suppose, it was 'enjoyable'- I could enjoy the fact that my evening didn't suck.

But I require more to my sexual encounters than "not sucking" to call them "enjoyable sex." Because I know what I enjoy... yanno what I'm saying?

And therefore your actions (or lack thereof) don't define your "orientation"

Okay, now that that's out of the way...

I always knew there was something weird and different and "off" about me compared to my more typically hetero peers, so I don't think I ever internalized the concept. Deep down, I'd always felt that "I like boys" was far more accurate than "I am heterosexual". Didn't have the words to talk or even think about how the two could possibly be different until like... a few years ago, though.

I grew up feeling genderless (and now officially identify) and would get excited at thinking about being eaten, or held hostage by dragons, or being someone's pet sidekick or a fairy instead of get excited about holding a boy's hand or kissing him or "being with him" or whatever. Dating never interested me, I never thought about it. Sex with individual people wasn't something that really occupied my thoughts. The first boy that had a crush on me I wound up picking apart and treating like shit because I was fascinated by his attraction and wanted to know how it worked (he was a creep, though, so I don't feel too bad about it).

So I guess tl;dr, I never found out I was heterosexual. I'd always thought of myself as a "thing" and now I have adult words to use to express myself more properly: agender, asexual, androphilic paraphile. It's a mouthful but calling me hetero makes as much sense as calling me a cisman.

Thank you for sharing this. I'm in awe of your depth of analysis or something-- can't hardly put it into words here...

 

[KoPilot]

Maybe, if the bar is set low.

I have had sex that wasn't awful, with people I wasn't attracted to. And in that sense, I suppose, it was 'enjoyable'- I could enjoy the fact that my evening didn't suck.

But I require more to my sexual encounters than "not sucking" to call them "enjoyable sex." Because I know what I enjoy... yanno what I'm saying?

I have great sex with S without being sexually attracted to him.

It's cause I've never looked at someone/something and thought to myself "I'd totally fuck them". It was more "I'd totally think about what fucking them might be like". Even back when I had a libido this was the way things were. Good sex is a means to something else, not the end to me. Which is why I can go without sex... I have access to other means.

I can like the way people look, I can like the way they move, I can enjoy the sensations they inflict, the space they take up, the things they say and how they say them. And I know people can say those same things are what make up sexual attraction, but I honestly never felt like there was anything more than that. The way people speak of sex appeal is this weird, mystical "more than the sum of its parts" thing that I don't understand. Love and romance I can only even understand on an intellectual level outside of my own relationship.

ETA: I didn't want to bring this out, but I think it's really quite necessary for a basic understanding of what I'm trying to say: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m366elTLrw1qbtg0uo1_1280.jpg

Thank you for sharing this. I'm in awe of your depth of analysis or something-- can't hardly put it into words here...

Yeah this is what happened during my break from Lit, I think. I have returned to be a glorious stick in the mud.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And I know people can say those same things are what make up sexual attraction, but I honestly never felt like there was anything more than that. The way people speak of sex appeal is this weird, mystical "more than the sum of its parts" thing that I don't understand. Love and romance I can only even understand on an intellectual level outside of my own relationship.

yep. The fact that you are ace changes a lot of things about sex and having it and what "not desirable" means in the context. One of the things it changes is what "desire" means in the first place... in very fundamental ways

I think that's astonishing, don't you?

 

[bhndblueyes88]

Of course, there is an exception to all of this, and well that's just a whole 'nother tail spin and makes me question what makes one "bi" anyway.

Hollah. That. Sister.

Actually, that link KoPilot just gave us to that drawing of different attractions was somewhat elucidating...I now define my attraction to my personal exception as either a "squish" or a "sensual attraction" (depending on the day/mood/libido). Not that that actually clears up the "what makes one 'bi' anyway" question

 

[KoPilot]

yep. The fact that you are ace changes a lot of things about sex and having it and what "not desirable" means in the context. One of the things it changes is what "desire" means in the first place... in very fundamental ways

I think that's astonishing, don't you?

I mean, I spent a lot of time hanging out at AVEN for a few months (before I kept getting reprimanded for things that the mods couldn't even explain) and that was one of the Big Things that I learned. Lots of discussions happened there that kind of seriously opened my brain up about what the hell orientation is anyway and all that stuff

Is it like, a checklist of things that you can pick and choose from and if you have more than half of them checked off, then you're X orientation?

Is it determined by the people you fuck?

The people you fantasize about?

Is it only from the things you get an involuntary physical reaction from? (by that rubric lots of people like being raped and get off on animals I'm sure)

I've spent so much time trying to figure out what sex and sexual attraction even are that they're almost meaningless to me now.

But yeah, that rabbit hole is pretty insane. :B

Re: the attraction diagram, I've been trying to come up with a term for a fetish "crush"... It's a tie between "crunch", "smoosh", and "crash".

 

[Stella_Omega]

I mean, I spent a lot of time hanging out at AVEN for a few months (before I kept getting reprimanded for things that the mods couldn't even explain) and that was one of the Big Things that I learned. Lots of discussions happened there that kind of seriously opened my brain up about what the hell orientation is anyway and all that stuff

Is it like, a checklist of things that you can pick and choose from and if you have more than half of them checked off, then you're X orientation?

Is it determined by the people you fuck?

The people you fantasize about?

Is it only from the things you get an involuntary physical reaction from? (by that rubric lots of people like being raped and get off on animals I'm sure)

Well, soo.. Did you come to any conclusions about those questions? I mean-- I have my opinions, as if you didn't know. But I find the terminology of ace as an orientation, to be disconcerting. "Orient" to me, means something like 'the direction we point" as in how we react to other (people, genders, high heels whatever) Wouldn't it be more useful to call ace, and un-ace (gotta find a term for "normatively sexual" now) and my end of the spectrum hyper-sexual, "Identities?" So you ID as asexual, a-gendered, with an androphilic/paraphilic orientation. I'm hypersexual, omni-gendered, with at this time a gynophelic/paraphilic orientation.

A nice symmetry there.

I've spent so much time trying to figure out what sex and sexual attraction even are that they're almost meaningless to me now.

But yeah, that rabbit hole is pretty insane. :B

Re: the attraction diagram, I've been trying to come up with a term for a fetish "crush"... It's a tie between "crunch", "smoosh", and "crash".

How about.. for aces, it's a "smoosh" for the norms it's a "crunch," for hypers it's a "crash"...

And I never had a crush in my life that I haven't want to jump their bones. The two are one and the same to me. Even still...

 

[Netzach]

Um...how?

Yeah this one doesn't work for me. Enjoyable sort of sexyfuntime yes, actual getting into one another's faces and touching wet parts to wet parts, no. Additionally....FUCK no.

What un-attracts me to someone isn't gender dependent and vice versa, but unless I'm attracted, unless my blood runs a little hotter my pulse is up my eyes dilated and I'm excited to get closer, the sexual stuff is just not moving forward.

I get a LOT of mileage out of masturbation, though. If I didn't I might be more flexible.

 

[KoPilot]

Yeah this one doesn't work for me. Enjoyable sort of sexyfuntime yes, actual getting into one another's faces and touching wet parts to wet parts, no. Additionally....FUCK no.

What un-attracts me to someone isn't gender dependent and vice versa, but unless I'm attracted, unless my blood runs a little hotter my pulse is up my eyes dilated and I'm excited to get closer, the sexual stuff is just not moving forward.

I get a LOT of mileage out of masturbation, though. If I didn't I might be more flexible.

Well, obvs. Wasn't telling everyone to go rush out right this instant and fuck the ugliest person they find.

Sexuals take for granted so much shit that they don't even know how to tease out the threads of "what is this feeling" because they all point in the same direction. For me, it's everything but that one thing. And that one thing doesn't point anywhere. It's not a tangle in an otherwise smooth, silky do, it's a fuckin' undercut. Doesn't make it any less a gorgeous head of hair on its own.

 

[KoPilot]

Well, soo.. Did you come to any conclusions about those questions? I mean-- I have my opinions, as if you didn't know. But I find the terminology of ace as an orientation, to be disconcerting. "Orient" to me, means something like 'the direction we point" as in how we react to other (people, genders, high heels whatever) Wouldn't it be more useful to call ace, and un-ace (gotta find a term for "normatively sexual" now) and my end of the spectrum hyper-sexual, "Identities?"

That's a big debate that folks get raging debate hardons over. Some people like to think that it's an objective orientation and that you have to appeal to some outside criteria that gets voted on by everyone else and yadda yadda yadda. I'm in the "identity" camp. Still lots of people who like to think that you're not ace if you're not celibate too.

I don't really have universal answers, just ones that apply to me. "I'm ace because of this, this, this." No skin off my back if I get my ace card revoked.

So you ID as asexual, a-gendered, with an androphilic/paraphilic orientation. I'm hypersexual, omni-gendered, with at this time a gynophelic/paraphilic orientation.

A nice symmetry there. How about.. for aces, it's a "smoosh" for the norms it's a "crunch," for hypers it's a "crash"...

And I never had a crush in my life that I haven't want to jump their bones. The two are one and the same to me. Even still...

Oooh, I like the sound of "smoosh". And the way you think. IT IS LAW

See, I've had crush-types before? But I think I always just wanted them to put me through a hazy, psychedelic, shamanic capital o Ordeal. And then keep me as a plaything afterwards.

 

[graceanne]

Um...how?

And why?

 

[Stella_Omega]

And why?

For reasons. Kopilot's comments in this thread are really worth reading.

 

[the captians wench]

We had a speaker in class last night from the LGBTQ Center on campus.

We started out with a kind of match the term quiz. I discovered that I didn't know quite as many terms as I thought I did, and learned some new ones.

The speaker was very open and honest about her experience and the whole thing was just very interesting and positive.

She also shared this diagram:



http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/1600-Genderbread-Person.jpg

And later I found this one:

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Genderbread-2.1.jpg

She also talked about a book that sounded really cool and I'll share it once I find my notes again.

But the whole time I was thinking of Stella and Etoile, and wanted to share a bit with you guys here.

 

[candyredlips]

We had a speaker in class last night from the LGBTQ Center on campus.

We started out with a kind of match the term quiz. I discovered that I didn't know quite as many terms as I thought I did, and learned some new ones.

The speaker was very open and honest about her experience and the whole thing was just very interesting and positive. ...

She also talked about a book that sounded really cool and I'll share it once I find my notes again.

But the whole time I was thinking of Stella and Etoile, and wanted to share a bit with you guys here.

Those are fantastic diagrams and I'm very eager to hear what the book title is when you find out. This is a very good question, and the entire thread has been such an interesting conversation. Have read every bit of it now, and just wanted to respond to a few things and share a bit.

...
For some reason this makes me think about my little sister (age 16) and my niece (age 8) and their travels into sexual identity. My little sister has always played with the idea of girls kissing each other with a some what bashful curiosity. I walked in on her playing with my The Sims game and making all of the girl sims "woohoo" with each other while ignoring the boy sims altogether.
...

Sims are fantastic for trying out gender identity and sexuality, it is a favorite at our house and the kids have had girls marry each other boys marry and hetero couples do the same and/or all of the above have and raise kids. The one issue was why the "two ladies couldn't have their own baby and had to adopt." Which was a great segue into reproduction and societal questions. In Sims3 scenarios all families are accepted and are not considered weird or frowned upon.

"...
I think nature/nurture of sexual variance is like spark and fire in a way. Whether that spark of inborn desire becomes actual behavior or not depends on factors and conditioning and conditions and the rest of the individual's characteristics. How much misery is caused by derailment depends on how strong the trait, how that derailment is inflicted, how flexible the system is.

This is very close to my own beliefs as well, and very eloquently said.

...
I'm hopeful it will be different. I mean, damn, my son goes, duh, two boys can marry each other. Like, why are you boring me with this NON-ISSUE. All of his friends are the same. They don't give nice pro-gay speeches. They just do not give a shit. Of course, we are elitist socialist urbanites but things are changing everywhere. I think that repulsion will be really, really hard to shake, but I'm hopeful we'll get there eventually.

This is my sincere hope too.

...
Re: the attraction diagram, I've been trying to come up with a term for a fetish "crush"... It's a tie between "crunch", "smoosh", and "crash".

Crash is a brilliant description!

When i was a tiny child i liked girls the way they talked, laughed, smelled, and also the way they looked. Glossy hair, bright eyes, and weird little souls in girl shape were what lit my spark. I was raised to hate men and was violently sexually brutalized at 5. There were men i respected though two cousins were nothing but sweet and honorable and because of them I chose not to see all men as vile. I was lucky in that way. When i was older i fell in love with a boy, then later with a girl. I did not know of the word bisexual until age 15 (backward). At which point i promptly adopted it. My dearest female cousin is mind boggled that i'm bi. She often asks me about sex with women and what it is like, but she has never once asked what it is like to love another female, to wake up next to each other day after day, to play, argue, to live together. Her interest (and fear) are purely sexual. On the same turn, i cannot fathom being straight nor can i or will i ever pretend to be. She'll never understand bisexuality and I'll never comprehend being straight, but we remain close friends in slight awe with each other.

...
Meh...human sexuality; liquorice allsorts...multi layered and two rarely the same.

Perfectly stated.