subs on loan

[Netzach]

ooooo, I hadn't looked at it from that angle - not liking the person keeping ambiguity at bay. Just hadn't considered that. Thanks for weighing in.

Heh, if you think the overlap is weird, I can only conjecture what the two of us would probably think about it.

I'm suddenly thrown back to thinking about an interesting incident from my past. I had my bottom/playpartner/stud/etc. fucking M. And while he was I was urgning him the whole time whispering in his ear to "fuck him like I would, you have to be my cock, fuck him like I would if I could" etc.

Kind of an interesting idea, the dick-by-proxy. I've always thought about the idea of using my male sub/bottom as an extension of will, as a way to fuck girls, for example.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i get that, "dick-by-proxy." in essence, any cock i serve is my Master's cock. that is the mindset in which he wants me to operate. which means that unlike Catalina and most others who are shared, i am not simply to serve other men, but to submit to them as well. which means that, if i'm alone serving someone, and they order me to do something that i know would go against my Master's will, i am to do it anyway, because my place is to submit, not analyze, question or resist. afterwards, when i tell my Master all that has transpired, he'll take care of whatever needs taking care of. but my place is to submit and nothing else.

 

[Chicklet]

It's funny going through my emotions just reading this thread. My first instinct is the 'no way, no how'. but then as I'm reading all the different things about it, and really letting the concept process in my brain, I realize that I'd probably do it for the right person. It wouldn't be on my list of 'things that turn me on and I'd like to try' but it certainly wouldn't be on my list of "NEVER"s.

 

[BiBunny]

I think it is also worth pointing out that to be loaned or shared does not necessarily mean you are submitting to anyone other than your PYL. It is they who choose and decide this is a path they want taken, but for us and many who do it, there is never any question about where the submission is directed. Performing what is asked of you as part of that submission to your PYL then becomes service to another, not submission as nothing happens which the PYL does not OK, control and/or direct.

Catalina

I understand this in theory, and it makes sense, but I know I'd have a much harder time with it in practice. It's funny because I have multiple play partners, but I still seem to have hang-ups with this. I guess it's because I pick (or we pick) my other partners, and I always make sure they understand up front that it's only a bottoming situation. While I admire the hell out of osg for her dedication to her Master and her slavery, I know that I'm simply not capable of doing what she does. There's a very fine line for me between playing around with sex and S&M and trying to gain my submission. Many people will cross this line, usually by accident, but I want to feel like I'm not betraying B. by stopping what's going on. If he'd ordered me to obey this person, and I stopped the action because I felt uncomfortable, then, in some convoluted way, I'd feel as if I failed B.

For example, not too long after B. collared me, he was complaining that none of the pictures I had of myself were very good pictures. A friend of mine is a professional photographer, so I secretly arranged for him to come over and take some pics of me for me to send to B. The first set turned out well, and when I sent them to B., he was pleased with them. My "friend" talked to B. and got some more pic ideas from him. B. told me that the guy was going to come over again the next day and take some more pics and that I was to do what he said, since all his ideas came from B. No problem, right?

"Friend" came over the next day. It started out ok, but I quickly got uncomfortable. I didn't know what to do because I didn't know if B. had asked the guy to make me uncomfortable or if he was just taking advantage of the situation. I ended up with a bruised kidney and a second-degree burn on the inside of my thigh because I was afraid to speak up. (Yes, that was my own fault.) When he finally left, and I talked to B., I realized that, in fact, this guy DID take advantage of the situation because B. had only asked him to take a few pics of me in more submissive poses, not tie me down and beat me until my internal organs were bruised.

Long story short, I had to beg B. not to drive up and kill the guy. And B. begged for me to forgive him for telling me to do what the guy said. I know it was mostly a result of bad communication on everybody's part, but I still can't get past that fear in my mind that without B. there to intercede, something like that wouldn't happen again. I'm very vulnerable in my submission to B., and I damn sure won't have anyone else taking advantage of it ever again.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I understand this in theory, and it makes sense, but I know I'd have a much harder time with it in practice. It's funny because I have multiple play partners, but I still seem to have hang-ups with this. I guess it's because I pick (or we pick) my other partners, and I always make sure they understand up front that it's only a bottoming situation. While I admire the hell out of osg for her dedication to her Master and her slavery, I know that I'm simply not capable of doing what she does. There's a very fine line for me between playing around with sex and S&M and trying to gain my submission. Many people will cross this line, usually by accident, but I want to feel like I'm not betraying B. by stopping what's going on. If he'd ordered me to obey this person, and I stopped the action because I felt uncomfortable, then, in some convoluted way, I'd feel as if I failed B.

For example, not too long after B. collared me, he was complaining that none of the pictures I had of myself were very good pictures. A friend of mine is a professional photographer, so I secretly arranged for him to come over and take some pics of me for me to send to B. The first set turned out well, and when I sent them to B., he was pleased with them. My "friend" talked to B. and got some more pic ideas from him. B. told me that the guy was going to come over again the next day and take some more pics and that I was to do what he said, since all his ideas came from B. No problem, right?

"Friend" came over the next day. It started out ok, but I quickly got uncomfortable. I didn't know what to do because I didn't know if B. had asked the guy to make me uncomfortable or if he was just taking advantage of the situation. I ended up with a bruised kidney and a second-degree burn on the inside of my thigh because I was afraid to speak up. (Yes, that was my own fault.) When he finally left, and I talked to B., I realized that, in fact, this guy DID take advantage of the situation because B. had only asked him to take a few pics of me in more submissive poses, not tie me down and beat me until my internal organs were bruised.

Long story short, I had to beg B. not to drive up and kill the guy. And B. begged for me to forgive him for telling me to do what the guy said. I know it was mostly a result of bad communication on everybody's part, but I still can't get past that fear in my mind that without B. there to intercede, something like that wouldn't happen again. I'm very vulnerable in my submission to B., and I damn sure won't have anyone else taking advantage of it ever again.

That is exactly why F doesn't leave me alone with anyone. He doesn't trust anyone, and so, isn't about to trust them to not go beyond what he has told them is acceptable when he is not there to do anything about it. The risks far outweigh any possible thrills.

Catalina

 

[Perfect_Trust]

It's funny going through my emotions just reading this thread. My first instinct is the 'no way, no how'. but then as I'm reading all the different things about it, and really letting the concept process in my brain, I realize that I'd probably do it for the right person. It wouldn't be on my list of 'things that turn me on and I'd like to try' but it certainly wouldn't be on my list of "NEVER"s.

Ditto Chicklet.

It's not really something I'd considered before, yet since the idea was planted in my mind I find myself thinking that I would do it for the right person. I just struggled to realise what He would gain from it, & it seems similar to Netzs' thoughts.

I think though, like OSG I would find it easier with someone I didn't know, and indeed the situation that was put to me was that it would be someone I'd known for a couple of hours, but that He had known for years.

 

[ownedsubgal]

BiBunny, thanks for sharing your story. that is the very real risk a Dominant takes when they lend their sub/slave out to another, for whatever purpose, and the sub/slave has been ordered to obey without question. i've had a few (not many) similar nightmare experiences, where someone went far over the line in their use of me, and i was hurt, physically and emotionally, far more than my Master wished. like the man who had been told by my Master he could use my mouth only, and instead decided to rape me anally for 3 hours. that area was off-limits at that time because i was still healing from some damage my Master had done there...so i was pretty much torn wide open after that guy was through with me. His excuse to my Master was, "i got overly excited and carried away...besides, i thought if i crossed a line, she'd stop me," when he had been told very much the opposite.

but this is what can happen when you deal with people. a few can be trusted within parameters...most cannot. still, my Master is willing to take these risks in order to fulfill his own needs and desires, and in order to instill the proper values in me which he feels helps me grow as a slave.

 

[catalina_francisco]

but this is what can happen when you deal with people. a few can be trusted within parameters...most cannot. still, my Master is willing to take these risks in order to fulfill his own needs and desires, and in order to instill the proper values in me which he feels helps me grow as a slave.

I guess being who we are, we both tend to take into account worst case scenarios....he certainly doesn't get any needs or desires fulfilled, or instil proper values in me, if I am dead at the end of the adventure and he is left with nothing. Granted, that is the worst case scenario and may never happen, but it is just not worth chancing and trying to live with after as far as he is concerned. If he were to leave me on my own, he would expect me to do all to prevent damage being done to his property as he sees such overstepping of limits as an assault on him and a betrayal. Both have their reasons, both know the risks they are prepared to take and why.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

If he were to leave me on my own, he would expect me to do all to prevent damage being done to his property as he sees such overstepping of limits as an assault on him and a betrayal. Both have their reasons, both know the risks they are prepared to take and why.

Catalina

very true. but i wasn't clear on what you said in the first sentence above...would Francisco feel you had betrayed and assaulted him, or the one he had left to use you?

 

[minx1]

Cat, OSG thanks for your posts. I read them with much interest...thankyou for the discussion.

I know it different strokes etc and what works for some relationships doesn't for others, but this really makes me question my submission...in that it makes me wonder if I am 'true' sub...whatever one of those is *smile*

You see I have to say I would feel really let down by my Master if he put me in a senario where I ended up being anally raped for 3 hours or something equally shocking.

Am I wrong to think that he yes he has needs, but I also expect him to put my safety first when satisfying those needs?

When I submit to him its to serve to him in any way I can, but that doesn't include being raped.

This has really given me food for thought. Thankyou

 

[skittles_lm]

For the most part I don't have any problems with him over it as I didn't want to be in a relationship which was about me and what I wanted and which didn't challenge me significantly. Also in some twisted way, it works for me on an erotic level in that it does fly against everything I am and I do love to be controlled and objectified even when I wish the earth would just swallow me up.

Catalina

Huh. Well said. I will second this. I have never actually been 'loaned out' but I suppose it is on my 'to do or not to do? Eeek!' list

 

[catalina_francisco]

very true. but i wasn't clear on what you said in the first sentence above...would Francisco feel you had betrayed and assaulted him, or the one he had left to use you?

Mostly the one he had loaned me to, but if I didn't try and prevent boundaries being overstepped and just complied without question knowing it was not what he wanted, he would see that also as a betrayal on my part and a disrespect for not trying to protect what is his property....failing would not be a crime, not trying to prevent loss or damage would be.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Cat, OSG thanks for your posts. I read them with much interest...thankyou for the discussion.

I know it different strokes etc and what works for some relationships doesn't for others, but this really makes me question my submission...in that it makes me wonder if I am 'true' sub...whatever one of those is *smile*

You see I have to say I would feel really let down by my Master if he put me in a senario where I ended up being anally raped for 3 hours or something equally shocking.

Am I wrong to think that he yes he has needs, but I also expect him to put my safety first when satisfying those needs?

When I submit to him its to serve to him in any way I can, but that doesn't include being raped.

This has really given me food for thought. Thankyou

I don't think it makes you not a 'true' sub. Everyone has different lines they are willing to cross or not, PYL's included. Most who loan or share are not willing to have their property damaged in any substantial way because to do so not only challenges their Dominance, but also can lead to their having to abstain from using their own property for a period of time in ways which they may wish to. Would you loan your Ferrari to someone you suspected might destroy it, or if you didn't expect that outcome but is the way it ended, would you then accept a lame explanation of why the other person didn't have a problem with abusing your property? Most wouldn't and don't leave much opportunity for that to happen. There are many things F would love to try with me, but due to the high risks involved, he doesn't because he is not prepared to risk not having me here with him just for a moment's fantasy...doesn't please him, but until he can find a way to insure my safety at all costs, he is not prepared to take chances and hope for the best.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

Mostly the one he had loaned me to, but if I didn't try and prevent boundaries being overstepped and just complied without question knowing it was not what he wanted, he would see that also as a betrayal on my part and a disrespect for not trying to protect what is his property....failing would not be a crime, not trying to prevent loss or damage would be.

Catalina

ah, understood.

in our case 1. i'm usually not aware of what limits are in place with a particular person (one of those "none of your concern, slut" type things); and 2. showing resistance or failing to submit regardless of circumstances would be the crime...He'd rather have an obedient but broken slave returned to him, than one who was unscathed because she had been disobedient and put self above her Master's will.

true there have been those situations where i just instinctively knew the person had crossed a line, and that my Master would not want them doing what they were doing...usually it's in their behavior and attitude...sneaky, on-edge, nervous, etc. then i know that something is wrong. but that is not my concern, my focus must be on always being a good girl, and in the really difficult times it's thinking of how proud my Master will be if i bear it and overcome, that helps to get me through.

 

[callinectes]

Thsi is why choosing the right Dominant for each of us so important. I would never agree to a relationship with a man that needed poly or needed to share me. I am simply not capable of doing either one. My dominant does not desire or need either of these things so as far as he is concerned I am a "true sub" Other dominants may feel otherwise, but that's why I'm not
with them.

ETA..my last sentence sounded unintentionally snarky. What I mean to say is that as long as you and your PYL are on the same page it's all good.

Cat, OSG thanks for your posts. I read them with much interest...thankyou for the discussion.

I know it different strokes etc and what works for some relationships doesn't for others, but this really makes me question my submission...in that it makes me wonder if I am 'true' sub...whatever one of those is *smile*

You see I have to say I would feel really let down by my Master if he put me in a senario where I ended up being anally raped for 3 hours or something equally shocking.

Am I wrong to think that he yes he has needs, but I also expect him to put my safety first when satisfying those needs?

When I submit to him its to serve to him in any way I can, but that doesn't include being raped.

This has really given me food for thought. Thankyou

 

[catalina_francisco]

ah, understood.

in our case 1. i'm usually not aware of what limits are in place with a particular person (one of those "none of your concern, slut" type things); and 2. showing resistance or failing to submit regardless of circumstances would be the crime...He'd rather have an obedient but broken slave returned to him, than one who was unscathed because she had been disobedient and put self above her Master's will.

true there have been those situations where i just instinctively knew the person had crossed a line, and that my Master would not want them doing what they were doing...usually it's in their behavior and attitude...sneaky, on-edge, nervous, etc. then i know that something is wrong. but that is not my concern, my focus must be on always being a good girl, and in the really difficult times it's thinking of how proud my Master will be if i bear it and overcome, that helps to get me through.

I know his limits...they do not differ from one person to the next. So how will he feel if instead of a broken body returned, he finds a dead one?

Catalina

 

[minx1]

Thsi is why choosing the right Dominant for each of us so important. I would never agree to a relationship with a man that needed poly or needed to share me. I am simply not capable of doing either one. My dominant does not desire or need either of these things so as far as he is concerned I am a "true sub" Other dominants may feel otherwise, but that's why I'm not
with them.

ETA..my last sentence sounded unintentionally snarky. What I mean to say is that as long as you and your PYL are on the same page it's all good.

thanks callinectes. It didn't sound snarky at all. The phrase isn't the best to use lol. I use the term 'true sub' very loosely,....I know what I mean, I just can't think of the right words at the moment. I guess it makes me question the degree to which I would submit...risking rape or putting me in a dangerous situation is a level I would not be prepared to go to.

 

[SubKekiLee]

Loaned out?

I understand this in theory, and it makes sense, but I know I'd have a much harder time with it in practice. It's funny because I have multiple play partners, but I still seem to have hang-ups with this. I guess it's because I pick (or we pick) my other partners, and I always make sure they understand up front that it's only a bottoming situation. While I admire the hell out of osg for her dedication to her Master and her slavery, I know that I'm simply not capable of doing what she does. There's a very fine line for me between playing around with sex and S&M and trying to gain my submission. Many people will cross this line, usually by accident, but I want to feel like I'm not betraying B. by stopping what's going on. If he'd ordered me to obey this person, and I stopped the action because I felt uncomfortable, then, in some convoluted way, I'd feel as if I failed B.

For example, not too long after B. collared me, he was complaining that none of the pictures I had of myself were very good pictures. A friend of mine is a professional photographer, so I secretly arranged for him to come over and take some pics of me for me to send to B. The first set turned out well, and when I sent them to B., he was pleased with them. My "friend" talked to B. and got some more pic ideas from him. B. told me that the guy was going to come over again the next day and take some more pics and that I was to do what he said, since all his ideas came from B. No problem, right?

"Friend" came over the next day. It started out ok, but I quickly got uncomfortable. I didn't know what to do because I didn't know if B. had asked the guy to make me uncomfortable or if he was just taking advantage of the situation. I ended up with a bruised kidney and a second-degree burn on the inside of my thigh because I was afraid to speak up. (Yes, that was my own fault.) When he finally left, and I talked to B., I realized that, in fact, this guy DID take advantage of the situation because B. had only asked him to take a few pics of me in more submissive poses, not tie me down and beat me until my internal organs were bruised.

Long story short, I had to beg B. not to drive up and kill the guy. And B. begged for me to forgive him for telling me to do what the guy said. I know it was mostly a result of bad communication on everybody's part, but I still can't get past that fear in my mind that without B. there to intercede, something like that wouldn't happen again. I'm very vulnerable in my submission to B., and I damn sure won't have anyone else taking advantage of it ever again.

I can understand where Bunny is coming from in this matter.. as if J told me to do something I would do it cause I trust his judgement and if I didnt do as he instructed I too would feel as if I disapointed him. I dont think he would let anyone hurt me and I think he would feel the same way about someone who did hurt me but he would expect me to use my safe word and if I told him I didnt feel comfortable he would take that ........ I am very vulnerable to him and he knows it. He recently loaned me to a female domme.. and had her give me my punishments he had instructed to do they spoke on the phone at legnth and he told her if I had been gagged I would kick my leg if I was uncomfortable with what was happening.. and if I wasnt gagged he told her MY safe word and told her if I said this.. It was to immdiately cease I never used the word and the effects of the punishment were to a great detail.. but it turned him on to great lengths to see the effects of the punishment. So if he had someone else in mind I might be concerned they wouldnt be as careful as this one he picked out.. Sooo I also agree with Catalina when Dom's loan out their sub... they expect their sub to be returned in the same way they were loaned out.. in good condition...

 

[minx1]

I don't think it makes you not a 'true' sub. Everyone has different lines they are willing to cross or not, PYL's included. Most who loan or share are not willing to have their property damaged in any substantial way because to do so not only challenges their Dominance, but also can lead to their having to abstain from using their own property for a period of time in ways which they may wish to. Would you loan your Ferrari to someone you suspected might destroy it, or if you didn't expect that outcome but is the way it ended, would you then accept a lame explanation of why the other person didn't have a problem with abusing your property? Most wouldn't and don't leave much opportunity for that to happen. There are many things F would love to try with me, but due to the high risks involved, he doesn't because he is not prepared to risk not having me here with him just for a moment's fantasy...doesn't please him, but until he can find a way to insure my safety at all costs, he is not prepared to take chances and hope for the best.

Catalina

Thanks Cat,

That makes sense.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I know his limits...they do not differ from one person to the next. So how will he feel if instead of a broken body returned, he finds a dead one?

Catalina

well i suppose he'd be devastated, and there would be another body soon to join mine. but death is not a likely scenario, considering the sort of people he chooses, the time restraints he places people under when they are left alone with me, and the fact that physically he is never very far away, no matter how "alone" i may actually feel. but yes there is still a small risk of death, he wouldn't deny that.

while i know my Master's set limits as well...things he won't do or subject me to under any circumstances...this is something very different from the limits he sets when i'm used by others. these limits change not simply from person to person, but from situation to situation. one day, Master X may be permitted to command me to swallow his cum and urine, lick the bottom of his shoes clean, etc...a month later, when i serve Master X again, he may be permitted to do nothing more than undress and visually inspect me, no touching of any kind. i very rarely know what the case will be regarding limits at any particular time, i just focus on doing my best to submit and please with everything i have in me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I guess it makes me question the degree to which I would submit....

You will find as your journey continues, and you interact with different people, some things you previously thought would never be on the plate for you may begin to appeal on some level. I am not necessarily referring to rape, but there are things which in the early days I thought 'no way', and now they barely raise my eyebrown to contemplate. It is difficult trusting in the beginning, and certainly with someone casual or not well known, but if you find a special someone you begin to take your journey with into a future, you begin to feel differently about some things. It is difficult to explain.

Catalina

 

[minx1]

You will find as your journey continues, and you interact with different people, some things you previously thought would never be on the plate for you may begin to appeal on some level. I am not necessarily referring to rape, but there are things which in the early days I thought 'no way', and now they barely raise my eyebrown to contemplate. It is difficult trusting in the beginning, and certainly with someone casual or not well known, but if you find a special someone you begin to take your journey with into a future, you begin to feel differently about some things. It is difficult to explain.

Catalina

No I understand Cat and yes you are right, I can see how things evolve and what might seem horrendous at one stage may not at another further down the line.

Its just the concept of him putting me in a dangerous situation that I would find hard to stomach. Not the sharing so much...although at this stage that is a limit of mine. But I suppose reading OSGs account and thinking that he would put me in a situation where that could happen.

 

[catalina_francisco]

but death is not a likely scenario, considering the sort of people he chooses, the time restraints he places people under when they are left alone with me, and the fact that physically he is never very far away, no matter how "alone" i may actually feel. .

Ah, so he isn't actually leaving you alone with strangers as we understood you to be saying, just giving you the impression he will/has? That makes for a whole different situation. As to death not being a huge risk because of the time he does leave you alone with another...it only takes a second and can be so quiet...and the sort of people he chooses? While you can do a lot of checking, even know someone for 20 years, you can never be 100% sure of what another will do simply because it is not under your (or his) control...sometimes the temptation can be too much in the flicker of an eyelid, and unexpected even to the one who does the doing.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

No I understand Cat and yes you are right, I can see how things evolve and what might seem horrendous at one stage may not at another further down the line.

Its just the concept of him putting me in a dangerous situation that I would find hard to stomach. Not the sharing so much...although at this stage that is a limit of mine. But I suppose reading OSGs account and thinking that he would put me in a situation where that could happen.

LOL, and PYL's do tend to like to lead you to believe one thing when it is often far removed from the reality. There have been many occasions when F has done such things to me to fuck with my mind, and had me just about out of my mind...but he enjoys watching that and knowing he holds all the control, and information I don't.

Catalina

 

[minx1]

LOL, and PYL's do tend to like to lead you to believe one thing when it is often far removed from the reality. There have been many occasions when F has done such things to me to fuck with my mind, and had me just about out of my mind...but he enjoys watching that and knowing he holds all the control, and information I don't.

Catalina

*smile* yes, thats very true. I can think of things myself lol. Not to that extent...but very effective!