The Doormat Discussion

[Kikori]

i leave a spare key under my doormat.. which is to say, the doormat is concealing the secret to unlocking and disarming my defense mechanisms n therefore must be kept in its place..lol

And you're contributing.... how?

eastern, I think she draws attention to herself without trying to because she tries to avoid it and fails. From a bit of an opportunistic point of view... Someone tries to hide themselves from the crowd, but fails to due to being unable to fall into their own groove of behavior that lets them naturally blend in as a normal person. Why would they try to keep the spotlight off themselves, though not for reasons like avoiding the general public (famous or infamous) or something similar? A bit of talking and assessment later, it could be seen that she's trying to avoid giving herself away as unable to say "no" or protect herself from opportunists, and in comes trouble. While I hate to admit it, there are a lot of people who would act on that kind of train of thought... if I'm reading correctly what's going on with her.

To be honest, subgal, while I know you can't just hunker down and start learning to say "no" or start behaving normal by taking lessons, if where you are is putting you in too many situations to be walked on, you probably need to move yourself into a better situation. Yes, you have a Daddy who revels in being able to keep you out of harm himself, but if he loves the need-to-be-needed feeling enough to get off on saving you, I'd bet my left testicle he's also compassionate enough to feel as good about helping you into a safer environment, even if that just means putting you into a different work place.

Also, eastern, she is different / abnormal. The real question is if it's bad or not. Public workers and people workers could tell you up front how rarely you meet someone who has an inability to say "no" to requests in the way that ownedsubgal seems to... But if she can learn to be happy with it, and it can make someone happy, then it's not bad. Happiness is the goal of humans, though achieved in different ways; if ownedsub can find a balance with her "doormat" nature enough that she doesn't have to hide or feel like she's falling apart over it, then it's a victory for her, right? The only restriction that could, and should, be placed is if it hurts.

 

[ownedsubgal]

But I wonder if you are really so different or abnormal.

yes, i do believe that something about the way i carry myself in the general public makes me appear abnormal, odd, different...at least, to those who notice me at all, most people don't. i am highly visible to two types of people: very strong and protective people (like Daddy and any friend i've ever had in life), and people who are inclined to be users or abusers. to most anyone else, i am just wallpaper.

and yes women are included in this...most often women fall into the category of "users"...from the very early days of having me do their homework night after night, to knowing i will work their shift for them without complaint, to "borrowing" money, to using me as a free babysitting service, etc. with men it is very different, their motives are almost always sexual. with women it is much more diverse and manipulative. so, men take advantage far more often, because my life is no longer such where i interact with any women who could be of a mind to take advantage. i'm a stay-at-home slave, fairly isolated, do not drive and do not go anyplace on my own...only recently has Daddy allowed me to leave the house at all when he is not home, and even then i may only go from the front door to the mailbox and back. the moment i'm back inside, i call him. that is my life, very protected and small.

some of our experiences/patterns have been eerily similar, eastern sun. what is behind them though, i think is likely very different.

 

[eastern sun]

yes, i do believe that something about the way i carry myself in the general public makes me appear abnormal, odd, different...at least, to those who notice me at all, most people don't. i am highly visible to two types of people: very strong and protective people (like Daddy and any friend i've ever had in life), and people who are inclined to be users or abusers. to most anyone else, i am just wallpaper.

and yes women are included in this...most often women fall into the category of "users"...from the very early days of having me do their homework night after night, to knowing i will work their shift for them without complaint, to "borrowing" money, to using me as a free babysitting service, etc. with men it is very different, their motives are almost always sexual. with women it is much more diverse and manipulative. so, men take advantage far more often, because my life is no longer such where i interact with any women who could be of a mind to take advantage. i'm a stay-at-home slave, fairly isolated, do not drive and do not go anyplace on my own...only recently has Daddy allowed me to leave the house at all when he is not home, and even then i may only go from the front door to the mailbox and back. the moment i'm back inside, i call him. that is my life, very protected and small.

some of our experiences/patterns have been eerily similar, eastern sun. what is behind them though, i think is likely very different.

I can relate to your experience of being used by women, and frequently find myself in that position. And I agree that while there are similarities in our experiences, there are also profound and significant differences. The most obvious is that I am able to refuse people, even though it makes me uncomfortable.

What I'm curious about is why we have these similarities, given the profound differences. I'm caught in an internal chicken and the egg debate. What makes one person able to say "no" and another unable to? Is it a result of trauma? Brain chemistry? Habit? Will? There are a lot of girls (and boys) who struggle with this, and very little support available (as you have already pointed out). Your example of the single mother with an abusive boyfriend is a very real and heartbreaking example of the reasons we need more discussion and support for young women who feel like you do.

I also find it interesting that we both chose slavery as adults, though I don't think we chose it for the same reasons. It would be a helluva campaign to champion slavery to the "doormats" of the world as a safe way out of a frightening predicament. Would you support that kind of conversation? Or do you think it's something that every girl has to discover herself?

 

[IntelliGentLMan]

kikori,

i tend to make convoluted,confusing metaphors from time to time. what i meant was doormats may have two uses. to wipe ones feet or to hide a secret key..the key represents truth.so if theres no doormat the truth is exposed leaving the home insecure.

 

[MisterSir]

i tend to make convoluted,confusing metaphors from time to time. what i meant was doormats may have two uses. to wipe ones feet or to hide a secret key..the key represents truth.so if theres no doormat the truth is exposed leaving the home insecure.

...your name is presumably only true for a given value of "intelligent".

 

[BiBunny]

"That would be a good thing for them to cut on my tombstone. Wherever she went, including here, it was against her better judgment." ~Dorothy Parker

 

[Homburg]

Good post, thank you for making it.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not usually one to say that "we" as a "community" (whatever that is) owe anyone anything, but I just believe that the perverts of the world have sorely failed people like OSG and me with the "strong, dominant submissive" oxymoron and the "no real Dom/me wants a doormat" shtick.

If both you and osg are doormats, then I have no idea what that word means. One of you has repeatedly talked about how much more competent she is than all the whiny ass males she meets, and says she can easily lead most people around by the ears.... and the other can't be left alone in public because she might drive off with a stranger.

That's not criticism of either one of you, just me noting that I have no idea what the heck you're talking about when using the label.

As for "community" views on submissives - I see two conflicting representations. One is the image of the strong, assertive, successful in life but s to the D type, you're right. However, there are huge swaths of BDSM culture that fetishize the image of the vulnerable female submissive. The whole notion of "sub frenzies" is built on the idea that the s is somehow more helpless and at risk than other people. And many Daddy/little girl practitioners model their relationships on the notion that the s needs to be molded by a pseudo-parental figure for her own good.

 

[BiBunny]

Nope.

 

[JMohegan]

I hold "whiny-ass males" in extreme contempt simply because I am what I am, and if those "whiny-ass males" are no more competent than someone like me, then they should probably go jump off a bridge for the good of all humanity.

As for the "leading people around by the ears" part, I suppose you missed the line about wearing many different masks. If I, of all people, can walk all over you, you have no business attempting to lead anyone.



No one appears to have any idea what anyone is talking about with this label, apparently, hence the entire purpose of the thread.

In expressing contempt for whiny ass males, aren't you doing exactly what you criticize other people for doing? That is - expressing contempt for those whom you consider to be less competent than you are?

As for what I may or may not have missed re the ears - I'll quote the entire post below. I understand that you say you wear different masks, and prefer not to be in control, but the relevant point to me is that you say that you *can* lead people around, no problem, and that most people bend to you readily. How that lines up with the persona who is incapable of saying no, or standing up to unscrupulous strangers if left alone in public, is the part that I don't get.

My theory--it's only my theory, and it may not hold water--is that most people in general, male or female, are submissive, or at least prefer submissive roles. I really don't think it has much to do with one's gender. I say this because I really am quite the submissive little people-pleaser myself most of the time, but I can lead most people around by their ears, no problem. Most folks just don't like having control. I think it's in most people's nature to only assume control if nobody else will do it because someone has to run the show, lest there be chaos. I am an example of one of those people. I will actively avoid it as much as possible, but I will step up if everyone else refuses to when something truly needs to be done.

I have met very few dominant people in my life. I have met many people who are unhappy in their leadership positions, but, like me, will step up if they have to in order to keep things from going to hell in a handbasket. I have met many people who claim to be dominant, but even I can lord over them with very little effort. I can probably count on two hands the number of people I knew without question would not bend to me. (I guess there you can get into the question of whether the "natural dominant" is a myth or not, but that's not where I'm going.) These people have been both male and female, which is why I say gender has little to do with it.

I guess, from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that most people will default to "submissive" most of the time. People are social animals, and if the majority of us are submissive, then it does two things. It cuts down on the amount of crap that goes on within groups, and it prevents that "too many chiefs and not enough Indians" problem.

I could be totally wrong. But my own observations and personal experiences seem to bear this out.

 

[BiBunny]

Yep, I knew posting that was a bad idea.

 

[Homburg]

In expressing contempt for whiny ass males, aren't you doing exactly what you criticize other people for doing? That is - expressing contempt for those whom you consider to be less competent than you are?

Maybe I'm seeing it differently, but I see a line between "doormat" and "whiny ass male". The former describes an entire person, their outlook, and overall psychological construct. The latter, by the term, denotes a particular behaviour, whining in this case. I would draw a similar line between impugning all "college boys" as opposed to "drunken frat boys". The former goes after all males of college age, while the latter focuses on the drunkards.

I am vastly more comfortable with derision aimed at a given behaviour than I am one aimed at a demographic.

 

[ataxia.girl]

But there is one area in which doormats are revered. In love, the givers, forgivers, unconditional lovers are praised. Mothers, husbands, the faithful, etc. Most of us I think see these characters as anything but empty zombies, weak willed idiots that give too much.

As long as they never complain. You aren't allowed to be that unless it makes you "happy" whatever the hell that is.

Sometimes the religion of "Happy" and "Whatever works for you" pisses me off.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Sometimes the religion of "Happy" and "Whatever works for you" pisses me off.

i thought i was the only one!! every time i hear or read those words "as long as it makes you happy," or "as long as it works for you" i want to scream like a flockin' banshee.

Bunny, you're understood more than you may think. i admire your courage to express what you did, however temporarily.

 

[BiBunny]

Bunny, you're understood more than you may think. i admire your courage to express what you did, however temporarily.

Thank you, OSG. You and Homburg both (since I just realized I didn't thank him earlier, bad Bunny).

 

[Homburg]

As long as they never complain. You aren't allowed to be that unless it makes you "happy" whatever the hell that is.

Sometimes the religion of "Happy" and "Whatever works for you" pisses me off.

Y'know, if you simply stuck with whatever works for you, you might be happier.

Would you like a pamphlet? Perhaps a flower?

 

[JMohegan]

Maybe I'm seeing it differently, but I see a line between "doormat" and "whiny ass male". The former describes an entire person, their outlook, and overall psychological construct. The latter, by the term, denotes a particular behaviour, whining in this case. I would draw a similar line between impugning all "college boys" as opposed to "drunken frat boys". The former goes after all males of college age, while the latter focuses on the drunkards.

I am vastly more comfortable with derision aimed at a given behaviour than I am one aimed at a demographic.

It's not just whining, it's lack of self-sufficiency that she was referencing with that critique. (Click me)

But this is really my point. People apply pejorative labels based on given behaviors that they observe in others. BiBunny applies the doormat label to herself, citing particular behaviors.... and yet she has written, many times, about her own behaviors that are indicative of a very different persona. So I don't see her as a "doormat" in the "entire person" sense.

In contrast - earlier on the thread, osg compared her social issues to a learning disability, and I thought that was very helpful in understanding the extent to which those issues have an impact on her life. As a person with an actual cognitive disability, I know what it's like when there's something most people can do, but you can't. Literally, actually, can't.

"Can't" and "choose not to" are two very different things.

 

[Bi_Kitty]

So I don't see her as a "doormat" in the "entire person" sense.

You know what you think you know everything there is. You don't even know Bunny in real life; you don't know any more about her than she wants you to know and what she posts on this damn board. If you passed Bunny in the streets you wouldn't even know it.

I told Bunny not to bother posting something deeply personal, since she had a lot of misgivings about it. You know why? Because I knew someone would be an asshole about what she had to say. Do you know how much effort it took her to bare that to bunch of strangers? No, of course you don't because you didnt' read the freaking post; you saw one or two words that caught your eyes and then quoted it when she asked everyone not to. But congratulations for being that asshole.

Are you happy now? Want a prize?

 

[YourCaptor]

YC, if only i had your knack for succinct, to the point expression!

I think you're doing great as it is. I read everything you posted in here and I don't even feel a need to say anything cause you got it covered. Plus your credibility and experience speaks volumes I can't match with my situation.

 

[YourCaptor]

Not if one's overtly submissive.

That's true, radiating that utterly defenseless vibe.

 

[JMohegan]

You know what you think you know everything there is. You don't even know Bunny in real life; you don't know any more about her than she wants you to know and what she posts on this damn board. If you passed Bunny in the streets you wouldn't even know it.

I told Bunny not to bother posting something deeply personal, since she had a lot of misgivings about it. You know why? Because I knew someone would be an asshole about what she had to say. Do you know how much effort it took her to bare that to bunch of strangers? No, of course you don't because you didnt' read the freaking post; you saw one or two words that caught your eyes and then quoted it when she asked everyone not to. But congratulations for being that asshole.

Are you happy now? Want a prize?

Sarcasm and personal insults aren't the way to get me to focus on anything you've got to say. I get that you're pissed off, but I've got no idea why - and really won't care why, unless and until you calm down and write something reasonable.

For the record - BiBunny asked people not to quote her personal revelations in post 231, and I did not quote them. The only part of that post that I quoted was her observation on the BDSM "community."

 

[Homburg]

It's not just whining, it's lack of self-sufficiency that she was referencing with that critique. (Click me)

*shrug* You used a terminology based argument, so I was looking at the terminology. I'm not precisely sure where the reference is needed, especially when, as has been stated in this very thread, she was still in the process of figuring things out. You may well be "done", I guess, but most people are works in progress.

And the lack of self-sufficiency that was the primary thrust of that thread was a matter of choice. "Won't", not "can't".

But this is really my point. People apply pejorative labels based on given behaviors that they observe in others. BiBunny applies the doormat label to herself, citing particular behaviors.... and yet she has written, many times, about her own behaviors that are indicative of a very different persona. So I don't see her as a "doormat" in the "entire person" sense.

I'm not sure I understand this. Can you elaborate?

In contrast - earlier on the thread, osg compared her social issues to a learning disability, and I thought that was very helpful in understanding the extent to which those issues have an impact on her life. As a person with an actual cognitive disability, I know what it's like when there's something most people can do, but you can't. Literally, actually, can't.

"Can't" and "choose not to" are two very different things.

Eh, I've seen people try and try and try to be something they aren't, and keep on failing. Then, in the end, they figure out what they're supposed to be, and just be that way. That is what I am reading here. You have mentioned that you tried to get the sort of cognitive leaps that you aren't capable of. I would see it as the same thing.

An example would be my buddy AP trying to remake himself for years into something softer and more, well, submissive-ish. It is what society told him would make him more attractive to women. Don't be so scary, don't be so aggressive, don't be so hard. So he tried and tried, and failed utterly. Instead of being less aggressive, he was weedy and non-committal. After a lot of soul-searching (and some truly fascinating discussions) he realised that it was just not in him. No matter how hard he tried, he simply was not capable of being that sort of guy.

In short, I am willing to see "can't" and "cannot succeed" as essentially the same here, while "cannot attempt" is a different animal. OSG has mentioned that she can at least attempt to mimic those around her vis a vis posture and body language, but it does not work. She is not in a "cannot attempt" situation there, merely a "cannot succeed" one.

 

[Homburg]

That's true, radiating that utterly defenseless vibe.

I've described it as "smelling like a victim" before. Some people really do just scream it out.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm not sure I understand this. Can you elaborate?

He thinks I'm a whiny bitch, H., but he's not going to come right out and say it, as that's not his MO.

That's cool, though. He's not the only one with the proverbial stinky opinions.

 

[Bi_Kitty]

Sarcasm and personal insults aren't the way to get me to focus on anything you've got to say. I get that you're pissed off, but I've got no idea why - and really won't care why, unless and until you calm down and write something reasonable.

For the record - BiBunny asked people not to quote her personal revelations in post 231, and I did not quote them. The only part of that post that I quoted was her observation on the BDSM "community."

Why?

But congratulations for being that asshole.

Does that answer your question.

I'm not pissed off. Yet, anyway.

Bunny revealed in 231 why exactly she is the way she is. It took a lot for her to post that. And then you are just going to turn around and so "nope she's not that."

Well, if she isn't "doormat in the 'entire person' sense," what is she then since you know her so well?