The Doormat Discussion

[intothewoods]

I think that's just it. Whether it works for you. Regardless of the value placed on submissive personalities, what matters is really whether how you're getting along in life. We all have to adapt to find our place in the world. That's just life. I don't see why being honest about that is a problem. I'm happy to accept submissive personalities and assholes alike. If they're happy with their life, then good for them. End of discussion. What else is there to do?

If we're complaining about the bdsm community and all of its ridiculous idiot assholes, really, there's a long list and who has the time to fix all that shit. I mean, some people in the community (and no, no one here, breathe) look down on monogamous people. Well, if you're wired for monogamy, that must be feel frustrating and unfair.

Rape victims were mentioned earlier. Their personalities didn't cause them to be raped. My acceptance of their personality won't make a difference on that score. Plenty of non-submissive women are raped and experience tragedy beyond their control all the time.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I agree that a world where everyone could be themselves 100% of the time - hey, I sure can't be myself all the time - is desirable but it's simply not possible. You are wired up to do whatever someone else demands and likewise others are wired up to take advantage of others at every opportunity and so on and so on. I think for people with extreme personality traits, of any stripe, life is going to be difficult.

I asked previously how someone like me might make life easier or better for people like you - in real life - but no one has yet answered my question and Bunny seemed to find it offensive (?). So how can I know how to make this world a better place for you if no one is willing to tell me how?

Bear in mind, I am participating in an online discussion, so the opinions I share here I would not necessarily share openly in real life.

i'm not advocating a fuzzy kitty world where everyone can be 100% themselves, 100% of the time...that wouldn't be feasible or functional. imagine the kiddie rapists and serial killers and curious cannibals of the world just being themselves every moment...or even just your average safe and boring joe blow. that is not what i'm preaching at all. i just long for a world where it is not necessary for someone wired like me to smother and crush to nothingness every ounce of who they are, just to survive.

as to your question, what can you do personally...i have no idea. that depends entirely on how you yourself view very submissive people. in the past you've made some very negative and condescending remarks about those who are inclined to submit to any and everyone, who don't set boundaries, who take this all "so seriously," and so on. one thing that would really help submissive types would be to receive that message a bit less, and to hear how we are actually valued and desired by some, a bit more. but that is not something you personally could do if you do not truly feel that way.

 

[eastern sun]

it's not so simple as acquiring "survival skills," it is not a matter of a switch that can be turned on or off, or a conscious choice one can make. before i was owned, the only thing that was ever effective for me in keeping myself safe was to pretty much avoid people: don't answer phones or doors, only venture out in public for absolute necessities (school/work/groceries), and even then be quick about it, keeping the head down and making eye contact with no one. because for me, even returning a stranger's smile can be dangerous. i know that if they demand something of me, i will not be able to refuse them. obviously, that makes for a very sad and lonely life, and not one worth living to be honest. it's not asking for too much imo to wish that life could just be a bit safer and more livable for submissive types, rather than just being told that we need to just kill all that we are and learn to be someone entirely different.

Do you still find the world this threatening, osg? I understand that your feelings about yourself have changed since you met your Daddy. Do you still experience the world in this way? Are you able to make eye contact more easily now because you know your Daddy stands between you and most potential threats?

I was a very shy girl, and rarely spoke as a child. But I don't find the world threatening as a submissive middle-aged woman, and I'm wondering if it's cultural, or age-biased, or the difference between neighborhoods.

People who don't make eye contact on the street are in fact targeted by criminals, because of the likelihood that they won't be able to identify their attacker. Though I avoided eye contact as a child, I made a point of learning to make eye contact after I worked in prisons.

Making eye contact as a submissive can be one of the greatest gifts you can offer a stranger on the street, because it allows you to "bear witness" to the other. And people want so desperately to be seen.

I understand that in certain neighborhoods, in certain cultures, making eye contact is perceived as an open invitation, but I think there is a place in our society for the gentleness, the openness, the reflection that a submissive's gaze can offer to a stranger.

(I've had my share of inappropriate reactions too. One dad reached out, grabbed my face, and kissed me full out in front of all the other moms during his daughter's birthday party. That triggered a bit of gossip. . . . But it also taught me to pull the sexuality out of my submissiveness on the street.)

 

[ownedsubgal]

Maybe I'm being all sorts of touchy-feely liberal here and saying that everyone has value somehow. I defended the assholes of the world earlier, sure. I guess I'm just saying that some people are built differently. That's just life. Not everyone is built to take that sort of responsibility easily.

Homburg, i just wanted to thank you for understanding. i think some are over-simplifying and thinking it's a matter of submissives just pulling up their boot straps, forcing ourselves to learn certain life skills, and "adapting," to the world in which we live. it sadly just does not work that way. my only options are being vulnerable, overly acquiescent me, or avoiding life and the world utterly....simply because i am just NOT capable of transforming myself into an independent, self-reliant person. it was the ultimate good fortune that my Master found me in my teen years, because going unprotected much longer would absolutely have led to my demise. that is in no way an exaggeration, nor a pity party, just a statement of fact. i think to many, the idea that some people NEED to be taken care of, and are unable to thrive and positively function in life all on their own...is very difficult to fathom, and impossible to respect.

 

[Keroin]

I see where you are going with this, but, by nature of the example chosen, the asshole is better equipped to control his gremlins than the highly submissive person is to control theirs. The asshole gets what he wants by his own nature, while the highly submissive person gets other people what they want, again, by their very nature. As a result, I don't think it works as an example here.



Eh, I don't think that you are being judgemental. I think that you are asking a dog to be a cat. The sort of personality we are talking about here is explicitly directed towards seeking other-control, not exercising self-control. This is not to say that OSG, for example, can't tell herself "No" to another piece of chocolate cake. It is more an unwillingness to say that same "No" to anyone higher in the authority food chain than themselves. And with some people, virtually everyone is higher in that chain.

Let's take it in a different direction. There are people in this world with very serious mental issues such as serious psychoses, crippling synaesthesia, non-functional autism and the like. These people cannot actually take care of themselves in a meaningful way, and are often institutionalised. viv's brother is in an institution due to autism that prevents him from taking care of himself. Do we blame someone with autism? No, we try to help them.

I am certainly not arguing that doormats are non-functional, but it is so very odd to think that they may well be different from you and I? And that the difference is not so pathologically heavy that people notice it and treat it, yet society derides it. Asperger's is often called the light version of autism, and reflects serious social difficulties. There is something of a polar opposite to it in William's Syndrome. This is a person with very strong social abilities but no ability to handle math, logic, sequencing, etc. This is the sort of person who could hold a very entertaining conversation with you, but can't follow the directions on a box of mac and cheese. Yet this sort of person, while having an issue that is documented and recognised, would not necessarily be seen as all that off in our society. Probably scatterbrained and ditzy, but not "broken".

Why then should someone like OSG or viv be considered broken because they can't really say "no"? Why should they be told that they, much like everyone else, HAVE to take responsibility for themselves? Sure as an adult alone in the big bad world, that's how you survive. Not everyone faces the world alone. Some people are really good at not being alone, in fact. They tend to stay in relationships far past the expiration date to prevent that. I can think of quite a few, in fact, and in a relationship with two right now.

Maybe I'm being all sorts of touchy-feely liberal here and saying that everyone has value somehow. I defended the assholes of the world earlier, sure. I guess I'm just saying that some people are built differently. That's just life. Not everyone is built to take that sort of responsibility easily.

OK, this explanation actually makes a lot of sense, thanks.

I would add though, that my asshole friend struggles daily to control his demons. Life may be easier for him in some ways but certainly not in others, and it took him almost 40 years to learn to control himself.

I suppose, I treat everyone in life equally unless I am given reason not to. Obviously, if I know someone is fragile, I step a little more lightly around them.

When one of my friends bitches about some guy being pussy-whipped, I always say something like, "Hey, maybe that's what works for him, y'know?". Or, "I know people like that, and some of them are really happy." When one of my female friends does the same about some woman, my response is usually the same.

It may not make things easier for that individual person, but it might lower the heat a bit. Not sure what else to do, as I can't personally weed out the predators that take advantage of such people. John Law looks down on such things.

Hm...I was just thinking of my cowboy friends...LOL. Don't think they'll be getting this message any time soon.

Good points H. I probably do have a higher asshole tolerance level than a doormat tolerance level. This is likely because my mom was one of those types who could never say no and it messed her up...and guess who had to live with the fallout from that?

 

[YourCaptor]

"Doms don't like doormats"

why not

"because submission is a gift"

allow me to translate "submission is a gift".

the sub chooses to submit to someone they like

so it follows that

"doms don't like subs who don't chose to submit based on who they like"

Why not, I would asume because they want subs who like them.

"Submission should be earned"

the sub, choosing to submit to you should be earned (worked towards)

This assumes that with work you can make someone like you.

So it all comes down to the D and s liking each other.

But why can't a doormat like a dom?

I can only think of one answer.

To all those D/s folk bashing doormats, submission is the expression of love that they look for. A private, personal expression.

A big romantic allegory.

It's not the submission that they love, its how they love.

 

[YourCaptor]

Wow, YC, this is the coolest thing I've ever read from you. Love the part in bold.

You need to read more of my stuff.

So, question...at the risk of offending everyone yet again...if the very submissive are that way by nature and thus cannot help how they are then does the same apply to the "assholes" at the other end of the spectrum?

I have a friend who very much sits on the asshole side of the equation and I would argue just as strongly that his pushiness, his aggression, his disregard for the feelings of others is very much a part of his nature. He is the guy that will quite happily take advantage of those who won't stand up to him. His nature has caused him a sufficient enough amount of grief that he has had to learn to adjust his behaviour but, just as with the subs who have to fake being tough, he has to fake being nice and cooperative.

Should we all just accept that he is who he is? Should he not also be valued? Because, I have to say, his assholishness has its benefits sometimes, not just for him but for those he loves as well.

Believe it or not but sometimes I am told I can be a serious ass hole.

I can’t really help it either. I think I am very kind, it takes quite a bit for me to actually be intentionally rude towards someone. However apparently I can also be very rude when I’m being nice.

Mostly I think I just come off a lot more serious then I intend to be. So I come off as demanding, protective, judgmental, etc. Sometimes I’ll take a moment to figure out what to say, and that comes off as a chilling silence as I stair at them. When I meet someone new I usually don’t have that much to say cause I hate small talk. Some people get nervous when I simply look them in the eyes. I can also often be rather precise with my words, and I have absolutely no problem with pointing out flaws, wrongs, etc.

Lots of stuff like that.

Those closer to me know that I am actually very easy going. Or maybe those that notice that get close to me.

I don’t think I can cover up that part of me, unless I get plastic surgery, a voice change, and apply some serious effort into changing all those subconscious things I do. No thanks, I’ll be what I am, if you don’t like it, it wont bother me much.

Plus, I think if you removed it I wouldn’t be me anymore.

 

[YourCaptor]

People who don't make eye contact on the street are in fact targeted by criminals, because of the likelihood that they won't be able to identify their attacker. Though I avoided eye contact as a child, I made a point of learning to make eye contact after I worked in prisons.

One nuance on that. Direct eye contact between strangers does usually imply a challenge. If you look directly at them, but focus behind the person, I find that works best. How you hold yourself also matters, just relax and look through them as if it was nothing.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Do you still find the world this threatening, osg? I understand that your feelings about yourself have changed since you met your Daddy. Do you still experience the world in this way? Are you able to make eye contact more easily now because you know your Daddy stands between you and most potential threats?

I was a very shy girl, and rarely spoke as a child. But I don't find the world threatening as a submissive middle-aged woman, and I'm wondering if it's cultural, or age-biased, or the difference between neighborhoods.

People who don't make eye contact on the street are in fact targeted by criminals, because of the likelihood that they won't be able to identify their attacker. Though I avoided eye contact as a child, I made a point of learning to make eye contact after I worked in prisons.

Making eye contact as a submissive can be one of the greatest gifts you can offer a stranger on the street, because it allows you to "bear witness" to the other. And people want so desperately to be seen.

I understand that in certain neighborhoods, in certain cultures, making eye contact is perceived as an open invitation, but I think there is a place in our society for the gentleness, the openness, the reflection that a submissive's gaze can offer to a stranger.

(I've had my share of inappropriate reactions too. One dad reached out, grabbed my face, and kissed me full out in front of all the other moms during his daughter's birthday party. That triggered a bit of gossip. . . . But it also taught me to pull the sexuality out of my submissiveness on the street.)

eastern sun...without question, YES, i still find the world that threatening, because for me it remains so. the particular neighborhood/area/environment doesn't seem to matter much, there is just something intangible that i constantly radiate, which reads to the general population as "victim." graceanne has mentioned several times how she used to feel she had a neon sign on her forehead...that is how i feel also, the weirdness of the situations i'd so often find myself in just could not be explained otherwise.

now i feel safe for the most part, because i go nowhere alone. still don't make eye contact unless explicitly told to, Daddy doesn't find that appropriate. but i also still have a fear of making eye contact, because it means making myself available, and i truly don't WANT to be available to all and sundry. even since being owned, the times when i have been out and about on my own (like before we lived together), more often than not i ended up getting into a car with a strange man, or giving someone money, or being tardy because i painfully stood around as some suspicious character hits on me. even out with Daddy, he will no longer even leave me alone while he goes to the restroom, because several times in the past when he has done this he returned to find me either missing (because someone took me away) or being molested by some stranger.

fortunately he has no desire to de-program me or condition me to be assertive and independent...he rather likes my vulnerability and considers it of great benefit to him. so he is willing to take on the responsibility and work of protecting me as much as possible, and taking the fall for it when he can't.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I don’t think I can cover up that part of me, unless I get plastic surgery, a voice change, and apply some serious effort into changing all those subconscious things I do. No thanks, I’ll be what I am, if you don’t like it, it wont bother me much.

Plus, I think if you removed it I wouldn’t be me anymore.

YC, if only i had your knack for succinct, to the point expression!

 

[eastern sun]

eastern sun...without question, YES, i still find the world that threatening, because for me it remains so. the particular neighborhood/area/environment doesn't seem to matter much, there is just something intangible that i constantly radiate, which reads to the general population as "victim." graceanne has mentioned several times how she used to feel she had a neon sign on her forehead...that is how i feel also, the weirdness of the situations i'd so often find myself in just could not be explained otherwise.

now i feel safe for the most part, because i go nowhere alone. still don't make eye contact unless explicitly told to, Daddy doesn't find that appropriate. but i also still have a fear of making eye contact, because it means making myself available, and i truly don't WANT to be available to all and sundry. even since being owned, the times when i have been out and about on my own (like before we lived together), more often than not i ended up getting into a car with a strange man, or giving someone money, or being tardy because i painfully stood around as some suspicious character hits on me. even out with Daddy, he will no longer even leave me alone while he goes to the restroom, because several times in the past when he has done this he returned to find me either missing (because someone took me away) or being molested by some stranger.

fortunately he has no desire to de-program me or condition me to be assertive and independent...he rather likes my vulnerability and considers it of great benefit to him. so he is willing to take on the responsibility and work of protecting me as much as possible, and taking the fall for it when he can't.

Can I ask? Do you ever feel conflict, knowing that your Daddy will find you missing if you leave with another person? Do you ever feel he will deep down be pleased by your inability to refuse another?

 

[eastern sun]

One nuance on that. Direct eye contact between strangers does usually imply a challenge.

Not if one's overtly submissive.

 

[Netzach]

See, I'm with you. But I'm sure you agree that to let your asshole self run wild would be a recipe for disaster? It is in everyone's best interest for you to learn to control and channel your natural instincts, I would suspect. I know that until my asshole friend learned to control his, he was constantly running into the same walls, which in his case meant not getting promoted at his job.

BTW, he calls the asshole part of himself his "Gremlins" and he always talks about how he has to keep the Gremlins under control.

I guess I'm just seeing here that to suggest a very submissive person needs to accept some responsibility for themselves is regarded as cruel, judgmental and mean spirited, but no one seems to feel that way about asking the assholes to do the same.

As for my asshole friend, when I need someone in my corner, he's the first guy I'll call and I value him every bit as much as my friend who would never ever raise her voice or contradict anyone about anything. I can love and value them both for their polar opposite personality traits but still expect them to accept responsibility for themselves, and I don't think that makes me a judgmental bitch. Tell me if I'm wrong.

This is what I think I was trying to articulate repeatedly. I find that I can't just *real authentic me* all over the place, and I don't really think it would be fair of me to do so. I have enough trouble not doing it as it is, so my sympathies extend about that far.

 

[Netzach]

You need to read more of my stuff.



Believe it or not but sometimes I am told I can be a serious ass hole.

I can’t really help it either. I think I am very kind, it takes quite a bit for me to actually be intentionally rude towards someone. However apparently I can also be very rude when I’m being nice.

Mostly I think I just come off a lot more serious then I intend to be. So I come off as demanding, protective, judgmental, etc. Sometimes I’ll take a moment to figure out what to say, and that comes off as a chilling silence as I stair at them. When I meet someone new I usually don’t have that much to say cause I hate small talk. Some people get nervous when I simply look them in the eyes. I can also often be rather precise with my words, and I have absolutely no problem with pointing out flaws, wrongs, etc.

Lots of stuff like that.

Those closer to me know that I am actually very easy going. Or maybe those that notice that get close to me.

I don’t think I can cover up that part of me, unless I get plastic surgery, a voice change, and apply some serious effort into changing all those subconscious things I do. No thanks, I’ll be what I am, if you don’t like it, it wont bother me much.

Plus, I think if you removed it I wouldn’t be me anymore.

Boy, can I relate to this.

I had this reputation for horrible bitchery in HS, which was just I dunno. Being observant or something, hanging back a bit and figuring stuff out. Enjoying a good solid debate in class.

A reputation I didn't even *earn* till my late 20's.

I find that I get more savvy to how to navigate, more flexible, but my outbursts of asshole get more aggressive the older I get as well. It takes more and more to get me riled to the point, but when I am I find it more and more disagreeable.

 

[Netzach]

Good points H. I probably do have a higher asshole tolerance level than a doormat tolerance level. This is likely because my mom was one of those types who could never say no and it messed her up...and guess who had to live with the fallout from that?

Yes, same here.

But the message I'm getting here is basically how-dare-you-call-her-abdication-of-mothering BAD. Or PATHOLOGICAL. Or WRONG. It's just her unique self-immolating personality, and if it amounted to a baseball bat of guilt being swung at your head every day, you're the ungrateful asshole.

I'm never going to see this kind of person as *healthy* but as healthy as they can get at best - fucked up, but inasmuch as we have the right to be. As long as it doesn't hit your kids in the face when you swing your dysfunction.

Before anyone throws rocks I don't see my own D/s M/s expression as healthy and I think health is overrated, overstated, over championed.

However, before you go reproducing, one should consider theirs, IMO. I have. You see the results in my no-children.

A distinct part of my discomfort with social doormats, is that I actually feel myself in that old childhood one-down position from them.

Here's a conundrum - imagine doormat authority.

If I let you do this nice thing for me which puts you out in some degree, I'm going to OWE you cosmically forever and ever, right? Even if that's not expressed and not intended. I am suspect that these people are trying to win the Karma game in some really sanctimonious fashion, because I'm not a sharer of candy by nature.

My own issue. I am cognizant it's nuts and uncharitable, but these are the people in your neighborhood, so this might not be that uncommon.

You can see, from examination, that I need absurd levels of trust to consider DOMINATING someone, with this in consideration. In earnest, anyway.

 

[Keroin]

Yes, same here.

But the message I'm getting here is basically how-dare-you-call-her-abdication-of-mothering BAD. Or PATHOLOGICAL. Or WRONG. It's just her unique self-immolating personality, and if it amounted to a baseball bat of guilt being swung at your head every day, you're the ungrateful asshole.

I'm never going to see this kind of person as *healthy* but as healthy as they can get at best - fucked up, but inasmuch as we have the right to be. As long as it doesn't hit your kids in the face when you swing your dysfunction.

Before anyone throws rocks I don't see my own D/s M/s expression as healthy and I think health is overrated, overstated, over championed.

However, before you go reproducing, one should consider theirs, IMO. I have. You see the results in my no-children.

A distinct part of my discomfort with social doormats, is that I actually feel myself in that old childhood one-down position from them.

Here's a conundrum - imagine doormat authority.

If I let you do this nice thing for me which puts you out in some degree, I'm going to OWE you cosmically forever and ever, right? Even if that's not expressed and not intended. I am suspect that these people are trying to win the Karma game in some really sanctimonious fashion, because I'm not a sharer of candy by nature.

My own issue. I am cognizant it's nuts and uncharitable, but these are the people in your neighborhood, so this might not be that uncommon.

You can see, from examination, that I need absurd levels of trust to consider DOMINATING someone, with this in consideration. In earnest, anyway.

Yeah, 28 years of dealing with someone you love yet who hates themselves is...draining. I could tell my mother a hundred times a day, every day of the year, that I loved her, that I valued her, that she was a great mom and a worthy person, but she would never, ever believe me. How does it feel to grow up knowing your mom can't believe and trust you love her, when you do? Shitty.

Not only that, she taught me all her habits - passive aggressiveness, self loathing, guilt trips, silent treatments, holding grudges, resentment, etc, etc. I'm sure you, and a few others here, know how hard it is to unlearn that stuff.

It would have been nice if she could have faked it, just a little, now and then, for her kids, at least.

I get the part in bold. I do.

The baseball bat of guilt. Yes. I remember it all too well.

 

[Keroin]

as to your question, what can you do personally...i have no idea. that depends entirely on how you yourself view very submissive people. in the past you've made some very negative and condescending remarks about those who are inclined to submit to any and everyone, who don't set boundaries, who take this all "so seriously," and so on.

Those comments were made when I was new here. I think, (hope), that I have grown and learned since then. Also, I did apologize, publicly, to you for those remarks. I'm not inflexible and intolerant and I'm happy to offer a sincere apology if I hurt or offend someone.

As for the "so serious", well, I think most people, in all walks of life, take themselves too seriously and I make no secret of that. But I'm learning not to try and force others inside my perspective. I'm not always successful, sorry.

one thing that would really help submissive types would be to receive that message a bit less, and to hear how we are actually valued and desired by some, a bit more. but that is not something you personally could do if you do not truly feel that way.

I value submissive people as much as I value anyone else. In real life, I don't divide people into levels of dominance and submission to determine their worth. One of the most important people in my life, a woman I call my second mother, would fall squarely in the doormat category. I'll be making a special trip to visit her in a month's time and I can hardly wait. She is a person of the highest quality and I love her.

It's important to realize that I view this little online life as different from real life. To me, this is a place where we discuss our many diverse views and opinions, free from the kinds of social constraints that govern most real life interactions. While I try to be respectful - again, not always with success - I also try to be honest. I have supported your views in some threads, disagreed in others. I've treated you no differently than anyone else on this forum, which is my way of showing that I value you and your input. If I didn't believe you were a person of value, I would do what I do with the few people I really do not value or respect here, and completely ignore you.

You need to read more of my stuff.



Believe it or not but sometimes I am told I can be a serious ass hole.

I can’t really help it either. I think I am very kind, it takes quite a bit for me to actually be intentionally rude towards someone. However apparently I can also be very rude when I’m being nice.

Mostly I think I just come off a lot more serious then I intend to be. So I come off as demanding, protective, judgmental, etc. Sometimes I’ll take a moment to figure out what to say, and that comes off as a chilling silence as I stair at them. When I meet someone new I usually don’t have that much to say cause I hate small talk. Some people get nervous when I simply look them in the eyes. I can also often be rather precise with my words, and I have absolutely no problem with pointing out flaws, wrongs, etc.

Lots of stuff like that.

Those closer to me know that I am actually very easy going. Or maybe those that notice that get close to me.

I don’t think I can cover up that part of me, unless I get plastic surgery, a voice change, and apply some serious effort into changing all those subconscious things I do. No thanks, I’ll be what I am, if you don’t like it, it wont bother me much.

Plus, I think if you removed it I wouldn’t be me anymore.

My asshole friend - I've got to stop calling him that, my nickname for him is Moose - is an amazing human being. Those of us in his innermost circle understand him but I know how he can come across to the rest of the world, so I totally relate to what you're saying.

His capacity for love and loyalty and empathy is as great as any super-submissive person out there, he just expresses it differently and he confines it to a select few rather than all and sundry.

As to the part in bold, let me ask you this, (and I know it's hard to imagine at this point put give it a whirl), what if your personality was holding you back from something you really wanted? What if there was a job you could have, that was the best job in the world for you, but getting it would mean learning to adjust your behaviour, would you do it? Would you at least try to do it?

This is what I think I was trying to articulate repeatedly. I find that I can't just *real authentic me* all over the place, and I don't really think it would be fair of me to do so. I have enough trouble not doing it as it is, so my sympathies extend about that far.

I have a massive smashing gene. I love to smash. Give me a sledgehammer and a pair of safety goggles and I'm a happy girl. When I walk into a shopping mall and see shelves of breakable stuff...oh momma. How I would love to walk through a mall with a baseball bat and just go to town. I long for it, just once.

Ah but society frowns on such things.


Hm.

Sorry, that was kind of silly but I think I had a point when I started. Something about the necessity of controlling impulses.

 

[Homburg]

Homburg, i just wanted to thank you for understanding. i think some are over-simplifying and thinking it's a matter of submissives just pulling up their boot straps, forcing ourselves to learn certain life skills, and "adapting," to the world in which we live. it sadly just does not work that way. my only options are being vulnerable, overly acquiescent me, or avoiding life and the world utterly....simply because i am just NOT capable of transforming myself into an independent, self-reliant person. it was the ultimate good fortune that my Master found me in my teen years, because going unprotected much longer would absolutely have led to my demise. that is in no way an exaggeration, nor a pity party, just a statement of fact. i think to many, the idea that some people NEED to be taken care of, and are unable to thrive and positively function in life all on their own...is very difficult to fathom, and impossible to respect.

I would like to say that it was something I learned, or a realisation that I came to, but it really isn't. I learned to express it, and came to some realisations about it, but the grasp of this sort of thing has always just been there. I am, by nature, the sort of person that attracts, and is attracted to, that sort of person. And I am very much the sort that defends and protects. This impulse has gotten me into trouble many times in my life, but it is not something I am willing to work on. I consider it something of worth, regardless of the trouble it brings, same as I would jump to defend a child or helpless animal.

For whatever reason, I get that some people need, and deserve, to be taken care of. I think it is just a compatibility thing. Being cold and objective, that extra flavour of vulnerability and need for rescue/care suits me in both my dastardly villain and shining white knight aspects.

--

OK, this explanation actually makes a lot of sense, thanks.

Welcome.

I would add though, that my asshole friend struggles daily to control his demons. Life may be easier for him in some ways but certainly not in others, and it took him almost 40 years to learn to control himself.

I'm lucky. I managed to learn that lesson in only 25 years. Or so.

Okay, so I haven't reeeally learned the lesson, but I do fake it really well.

Hm...I was just thinking of my cowboy friends...LOL. Don't think they'll be getting this message any time soon.

My friends don't get it either. They just expect me to be weird about some things, and know better than to ask why.

Good points H. I probably do have a higher asshole tolerance level than a doormat tolerance level. This is likely because my mom was one of those types who could never say no and it messed her up...and guess who had to live with the fallout from that?

I can imagine how that could be an issue. In her own weird way, my mother was a doormat. No one in the world would ever think that about her, but she stayed with my dad FAR beyond the point most people would, and she feels that way about herself. To this day, I could not tell you why they are still together. She put up with so much BS, or at least things she saw as BS, when I was growing up, and it ripped her apart, yet she stuck with him. She claims a combination of loyalty and nowhere to go, yet she had places she could've gone. *shrug*

She did a lot of the self-loathing and guilt too, but there was always that strong presence of dominant-ish assertiveness when she was pissed. My mom was, and is, a very conflicted person. She is forceful, scary, and dominant in many people's eyes, and very capable of being in charge, yet she grew up never in charge, and doesn't really see that as her role. She is the sort of woman that could have been dominant, but never got the memo that it was okay, and wasn't pushed hard enough by her own demons to get to that point anyway.

My dad? Honestly, he's a doormat. He has stayed in the relationship just like she did, and he does as he is told, period. He has his moments of quiet rebellion, and I doubt that anyone that did not know him really, really well would think that, but he is still with my mom. I would've gotten fed up and walked out SO fast, as my mom is a Grade A shrew towards him, but, as I said before, some people are cool with that. Some people are actualised by it. In my dad's case, with his childhood, I don't think his brain can really conceive of a woman that wasn't a shrew, and that he doesn't have to live that way.

And, yeah, my dad is strong as shit, and assertive when he needs to be, and a good organiser, and all that. 24 years in the army and being the baddest motherfucker I know will guaranteed prevent anyone from thinking that my pop is a doormat. But me? Yeah, I know the behind-the-scenes stuff. I know all the grief he swallows. And I still respect him more than any man alive.

Maybe that's why I *get* this concept.

 

[Homburg]

"Doms don't like doormats"

why not

"because submission is a gift"

allow me to translate "submission is a gift".

the sub chooses to submit to someone they like

so it follows that

"doms don't like subs who don't chose to submit based on who they like"

Why not, I would asume because they want subs who like them.

"Submission should be earned"

the sub, choosing to submit to you should be earned (worked towards)

This assumes that with work you can make someone like you.

So it all comes down to the D and s liking each other.

But why can't a doormat like a dom?

I can only think of one answer.

To all those D/s folk bashing doormats, submission is the expression of love that they look for. A private, personal expression.

A big romantic allegory.

It's not the submission that they love, its how they love.

Excellent post.

 

[eastern sun]

Here's a conundrum - imagine doormat authority.

If I let you do this nice thing for me which puts you out in some degree, I'm going to OWE you cosmically forever and ever, right? Even if that's not expressed and not intended. I am suspect that these people are trying to win the Karma game in some really sanctimonious fashion, because I'm not a sharer of candy by nature.

My own issue. I am cognizant it's nuts and uncharitable, but these are the people in your neighborhood, so this might not be that uncommon.

I love this conundrum. It's rather common in the realm of motherhood, but it extends into the world of petty bureaucrats, politics and middle management as well.

It is really, really easy to feel frustrated by your lack of power to effect real change, and then vent that frustration on the people "under" you. I would suspect that a fairly large number of children have experienced this in their mothers. The problem is when it becomes chronic and habitual. When resentment and passive-aggressiveness becomes the guiding light, so to speak.

I can't tell you the number of times I have watched myself turning my anger towards my husband on my son. It sucks. And it takes tremendous vigilance to stop, because my son (with strong, dominant traits) is doing the very things I am pissed at my husband for doing. It is easy to forget who the grownups are.

And then . . . one's spirituality comes into play. Religious and spiritual power have always been offered to the powerless as a recourse for dealing with their frustrations. I rejected it all outright as a young woman because I bought into the "opiate of the masses" philosophy. But my spiritual beliefs and my "doing for others" do go hand in hand.

The problem is when we use the spiritual/religious "I'm so fine" feelings to support bad behavior. And we do. Look at what has been done in the name of God.

People get lost trying to sort all this out.

You have probably become the woman you are in part because your mother was the way she was. She was probably the mother she was in part because of the woman you are.

I don't imagine it was easy for either of you.

 

[ecstaticsub]

It's like every other relationship vanilla or kinky. Find the person(s) that matches your needs and however that works is fine with me.

I do see a difference though between those who are natural doormats and those who choose to be doormats (not necessarily on this thread or forum, in real life and elsewhere)

I do have a problem with doormat by choice women who I have to interact with, but only if I have to take the dominant role with them. (and not in the D/s sense but everyday life sense of the word) I have said before that I do not have a submissive personality, I am submissive to one and only person. But that is not entirely true. In truth I am shy, a bit timid of the world, I have almost a phobia about making phone calls, I absolutely HATE making decisions. I am very non-confrontational and only speak out when at my limit. There is in the core of my being a very submissive,service oriented personality.

But reality happens. Not everyone can find that person to take care of them. At some point in our lives we have to take care of ourselves. I had no choice but to over the years become more assertive, decisive and more aggressive. I will admit to even enjoying it, too.

I've worked with doormat-y type both as a stay-at-home mom and out in the workforce. I take care of those who I chose to take care of, I don't want to handhold anyone else and help them make decisions. If I have to suck it up and be assertive than others that I am dealing with should also.

 

[ownedsubgal]

But the message I'm getting here is basically how-dare-you-call-her-abdication-of-mothering BAD. Or PATHOLOGICAL. Or WRONG. It's just her unique self-immolating personality, and if it amounted to a baseball bat of guilt being swung at your head every day, you're the ungrateful asshole.

hmm...i honestly don't see that message, haven't personally expressed that message, and perhaps you are seeing it because your view is colored by all of those experiences with your mother. and this is reason number TWO why i don't want children (reason no. 1 being i just don't like them in large doses). it is why it is absolutely out of the question for me to be in any way an authority figure to my Master's child. i have sense enough to know and understand who i am. while my nurturing/heal the world qualities work just fine with a cat, my total inability to be assertive, to discipline...mingled with constant self-doubt and deprecation...would make for a really thoroughly screwed up kid. further, not being able to take care of or even protect just myself, i know i could not adequately protect a child either. i can easily see myself as the single mom with the alcoholic violent boyfriend, feeling helpless as he does whatever he wants with my kids.

so yeah, motherhood...not meant for everyone. it's too bad everyone doesn't engage in that kind of honesty and reflection before deciding to be parents.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Can I ask? Do you ever feel conflict, knowing that your Daddy will find you missing if you leave with another person? Do you ever feel he will deep down be pleased by your inability to refuse another?

He is pleased by my inability to refuse others, or to keep myself safe. it frustrates him at times, no question...he has had to invent whole new ways of going about everyday activities, he has had to come to my rescue more times than he can count, and because he loves me so he worries and panics and his goatee goes gray. but at the same time, no matter the trouble or difficulty it may cause...yes i know it pleases him. He enjoys owning someone so submissive, and he is greatly fulfilled by the fact that he is desperately needed. He knows that if he leaves me be, that's curtains for me...i would never survive. and he is the type who gets off on that kind of power.

still, i don't exactly try to be abducted or molested or anything else. my lifelong habit when alone anyplace is to try to blend in to the walls, be silent and invisible, kind of hunched and closed in and not welcoming at all. obviously, that doesn't work for me. so then sometimes i try mimicking a "normal" person i see in the room...copying their smile, their posture, their hand motions and body language...all of these small things come naturally and without thought to most people, but i have to study and imitate them. but that doesn't work for me either, i think in the eyes i don't quite pull it off. also it makes me look approachable, and when someone approaches i have absolutely no idea what to do, it all just falls apart.

 

[eastern sun]

still, i don't exactly try to be abducted or molested or anything else. my lifelong habit when alone anyplace is to try to blend in to the walls, be silent and invisible, kind of hunched and closed in and not welcoming at all. obviously, that doesn't work for me.

so then sometimes i try mimicking a "normal" person i see in the room...copying their smile, their posture, their hand motions and body language...all of these small things come naturally and without thought to most people, but i have to study and imitate them. but that doesn't work for me either, i think in the eyes i don't quite pull it off. also it makes me look approachable, and when someone approaches i have absolutely no idea what to do, it all just falls apart.

I'm assuming that you draw people's attention even when you hope to avoid it? But don't know why?

Do you get the same kind of attention from women? Do you feel women take advantage of you as often as men?

Are you, in fact, abnormal to the outside eye? Or do you just feel that way?

Forgive my questions, osg, if they feel challenging or intrusive. I have felt and behaved in similar ways over the years. I have been taken advantage of by sexual predators and assaulted as a teenager, isolated myself from the world, completely negated myself with alcohol and drugs, found refuge in relationships with dominant men, and struggled to accept my true self.

I understand what it feels like to mimic other people's behavior in order to find an anchor in social situations. And to fall apart when someone approaches.

The depth and details of your experiences are completely your own. And, obviously, a lot of people are astonished by your words.

But I wonder if you are really so different or abnormal.

 

[IntelliGentLMan]

i leave a spare key under my doormat.. which is to say, the doormat is concealing the secret to unlocking and disarming my defense mechanisms n therefore must be kept in its place..lol