The Doormat Discussion

[Netzach]

I'm whining. So there.

And I guess I count as a slave. When they call, "Slave-girl!", I answer to it. *Shrug*

It's like it's cool to be a slave, as long as you point out that you're some in-your-face go-getter the rest of your life. "I'm MASTER'S SLAVE, and I don't submit to ANYBODY ELSE, and I have a DOMINANT personality."

I've noticed people *say* they want that. They THINK they want it.

But I've seen the way those people are treated in the community in actuality, and no, it's not like "wow whatta prize."

The middle of the road band of acceptability applies in SM.

Most people I know aren't all one thing or not anyway. H is sometimes the total smooth operator in his world and sometimes a mess of freking insecurities, but he's always my whipping boy.

I'm sometimes a smooth operator and sometimes a mess of insecurities, but I know which way's up with him. There's no resistance there. Watching us in action, you see serious SERIOUS doormat. Shithead = pet name.

 

[Netzach]

Some more contemplating the subject.

I’m zooming out here, taking a look at the big picture.

In America, and many other places, there is a top, and a bottom, and in order to be at the top, you got to stand on those below you. I don’t think we like to look at the world around us in that way, but lets face it, that’s how it is. You want more money you got to leave others with less, you want power you got to take it way from others. It’s a closed system, we aren’t innovating, climbing higher and higher, we are just fighting over the top of the human pyramid.

Every once in a while you get those rare gems, those that will gladly be your footstool if it gets you a bit closer to where you want to be. Problem is, following the same rule, if those at the top have glory, those at the bottom are dirt.

Doormats I think are seen as the bottom of the bottom. The untouchable.

In BDSM, doormats are seen as lifeless, will-less, robots.

In the working world, doormats take the fall, get the coffee, and clap on promotion day.

But there is one area in which doormats are revered. In love, the givers, forgivers, unconditional lovers are praised. Mothers, husbands, the faithful, etc. Most of us I think see these characters as anything but empty zombies, weak willed idiots that give too much.

How you view a doormat, I suppose it depends on your lens.

How does that translate into something useful?

It could shed some light on the perspectives of those who bash doormats. They aren’t looking at it in terms of loving relationships, the are looking at in terms of power, probably within the community, they are looking at play, with levels of advancement, or they are confused and just go along. Most probably have a combination of perspectives, plus many I haven’t thought of here.

That's a really nice observation. I dig.

But I always liked romantic stories that involved a LOT of male suffering.

I also think that when things are framed as service it's different. I groove on a particular kind of dignity in service at baseline - if I want to make that person a completely disenfranchised cum rag from there, I like the option. I don't see that dignity as a dominance or power thing, but an internal power thing. It doesn't mean you're the head of the PTA and the block association and a CEO, it's got nothing to do with that shit.

 

[Keroin]

It sounds to me that there is a big disconnect in the communication here between the self proclaimed "doormat" and the other posters.

Homburg post below touches and explain what I'm trying to say.

There is a big difference between been a "doormat" and knowing and/or accepting it and just been a doormat and unaware of it. Each one of the submissive here that has self-labeled as a doormat is strongly (and at times painfully) aware of their nature and have come to some level of acceptance that it is who they are. They just wish the rest of the kinky society at least would not look down on them because of it.

The reality is that most of the people are not looking down on them. If you are self-aware and don't whine about it, very few people have a problem with whatever you are. And the ones that do, it is ultimately their problem.

Most of the people on these boards are very accepting of what label each of us wish to self-identify with and nobody is looking down to any of the self-proclaimed "doormat" submissive here. However being a discussion board, and being that the posters here tend to be people that like a stimulating and vivacious discussion, questioning and probing will be part of it.

For the record, I've come to realize that I am quite the doormat myself. Luckily I also have a strong preservation and survival instinct and have learned to avoid finding myself in situation where I'll be taken advantage of too badly. Or to painfully stand up for myself if I have to. And when I don't and get taken advantage of, I accept that it is a risk of being the way I am and deal with the consequences at best.

Beautifully put, Rida.

Some more contemplating the subject.

I’m zooming out here, taking a look at the big picture.

In America, and many other places, there is a top, and a bottom, and in order to be at the top, you got to stand on those below you. I don’t think we like to look at the world around us in that way, but lets face it, that’s how it is. You want more money you got to leave others with less, you want power you got to take it way from others. It’s a closed system, we aren’t innovating, climbing higher and higher, we are just fighting over the top of the human pyramid.

Every once in a while you get those rare gems, those that will gladly be your footstool if it gets you a bit closer to where you want to be. Problem is, following the same rule, if those at the top have glory, those at the bottom are dirt.

Doormats I think are seen as the bottom of the bottom. The untouchable.

In BDSM, doormats are seen as lifeless, will-less, robots.

In the working world, doormats take the fall, get the coffee, and clap on promotion day.

But there is one area in which doormats are revered. In love, the givers, forgivers, unconditional lovers are praised. Mothers, husbands, the faithful, etc. Most of us I think see these characters as anything but empty zombies, weak willed idiots that give too much.

How you view a doormat, I suppose it depends on your lens.

How does that translate into something useful?

It could shed some light on the perspectives of those who bash doormats. They aren’t looking at it in terms of loving relationships, the are looking at in terms of power, probably within the community, they are looking at play, with levels of advancement, or they are confused and just go along. Most probably have a combination of perspectives, plus many I haven’t thought of here.

Wow, YC, this is the coolest thing I've ever read from you. Love the part in bold.

That's a really nice observation. I dig.

Me too.

I also chuckled at your new sig line.

 

[Homburg]

It's like it's cool to be a slave, as long as you point out that you're some in-your-face go-getter the rest of your life. "I'm MASTER'S SLAVE, and I don't submit to ANYBODY ELSE, and I have a DOMINANT personality."

I've never understood why it was "cool" to be a slave at all. It's a lifestyle choice, not a lottery prize. I don't get the cache people put into basic lifestyle choices. Sure, there's cool factor to owning a Bugatti Veyron, but being a slave, or a master, or whatever? Meh, it just means that you've found someone with whom your compatible and your relationship is structured so as to make such a title useful.

I'm tired of being cool or uncool.

--

You produce amateur porn?

Not currently, but, yes, I have.

--

And I had a bit of a thought.

I am of oriental descent, specifically Japanese. If someone I don't know calls me a "nip" or "slope" or somesuch, I may well take offense. Those are not just pejoratives. They are indictments against an entire people. If I call myself one of those terms, or a good friend does so (as my friends have), it's no big thing.

If someone is called a "doormat" in a derogatory fashion, it is offensive. It is not just a pejorative, but calling into question large swaths of their personality, lifestyle, etc. In the case of someone in a D/s relationship, it is deriding a core portion of their sexuality and, often, identity. But if someone considers themselves a doormat, or some form thereof, and says it about themselves, it's no big thing.

Or, to give another example, I can call my girl a "dirty whore" when I want because it is acceptable within the bounds of our relationship, but should someone else say that they may well have a very hostile Homburg on their hands.

 

[intothewoods]

I have to say, generally speaking, to get ahead in one's career, one shouldn't necessarily be an aggressive, domineering asshole. Should you be assertive? Some of the characteristically dominant personality traits are quite helpful. Confidence, assertiveness, boldness, etc. However, at least in a service industry, it's also quite helpful to listen attentively, aim to please (the client's always right, etc.), be intuitive and many other characteristically submissive traits.

And as rida has pointed out, communication styles vary greatly from country to country. I deal with people from all over the world, and a personality that is prized in one country would not necessarily be prized in another. And, for myself, I have to try my best to tailor my communication style accordingly. I can't be a stereotypical American brute or I won't get very far.

At any rate, I just think the tiger in the board room, pussycat in the bedroom thing is wayyyyy overstated, regardless of what you read on Fetlife profiles.

 

[eastern sun]

I have to say, generally speaking, to get ahead in one's career, one shouldn't necessarily be an aggressive, domineering asshole. Should you be assertive? Some of the characteristically dominant personality traits are quite helpful. Confidence, assertiveness, boldness, etc. However, at least in a service industry, it's also quite helpful to listen attentively, aim to please (the client's always right, etc.), be intuitive and many other characteristically submissive traits.

And as rida has pointed out, communication styles vary greatly from country to country. I deal with people from all over the world, and a personality that is prized in one country would not necessarily be prized in another. And, for myself, I have to try my best to tailor my communication style accordingly. I can't be a stereotypical American brute or I won't get very far.

At any rate, I just think the tiger in the board room, pussycat in the bedroom thing is wayyyyy overstated, regardless of what you read on Fetlife profiles.

I have also found that flexibility and an ability to listen to people and meet their needs is a very valuable skill in the workplace.

The reason I mentioned that "slavery" per se can be a hindrance to one's career is that I have less time to pursue it aggressively. Others' needs are almost always given higher priority. If you're entering a live-in D/s relationship, time parameters and work/relationship/family boundaries should be clearly delineated. Once you slip into M/s dynamics, unless the M prioritizes your work, it won't necessarily get the time and/or attention it needs.

And it is super easy to hide any insecurities on the workfront behind the relationship dynamics. (This I've experienced firsthand ) It helps then to have a D who values the challenges your work offers you, and encourages/requires you to meet them.

 

[ownedsubgal]

That's a really nice observation. I dig.

But I always liked romantic stories that involved a LOT of male suffering.

I also think that when things are framed as service it's different. I groove on a particular kind of dignity in service at baseline - if I want to make that person a completely disenfranchised cum rag from there, I like the option. I don't see that dignity as a dominance or power thing, but an internal power thing.

i get it, you are turned off by the spineless, no self-esteem, self-denigrating thing, which often comes with doormat types. you don't want someone coming to you crying and despairing over how much they hate themselves and can't help it, etc. but if doormat is changed to "service-oriented," that typically speaks of a person with more self-acceptance, more self-respect and as you say more dignity.

the thing is, it would take a really incredibly strong and determined submissive-natured person to be able to overcome and disregard, completely on their own, all the bashing and generally flocked up treatment one receives when they have such a personality. before i met Daddy, and well into our relationship even, i was every bit the "i'm an ugly, pathetic worthless piece of crap that no one will ever want" self-loathing doormat. people keep mentioning self-awareness here. well, i was definitely self-aware. i knew that i was a doormat, and i accepted that was just the way i was made. however i very much despaired over being dealt this particular hand, and totally hated that core aspect of my personality. it takes something pretty powerful and pretty amazing...in my case, a devoted Father and firm Master....in order to move beyond mere self-awareness and self-acceptance, to actually valuing and liking oneself.

 

[ownedsubgal]

If someone is called a "doormat" in a derogatory fashion, it is offensive. It is not just a pejorative, but calling into question large swaths of their personality, lifestyle, etc. In the case of someone in a D/s relationship, it is deriding a core portion of their sexuality and, often, identity. But if someone considers themselves a doormat, or some form thereof, and says it about themselves, it's no big thing.

Or, to give another example, I can call my girl a "dirty whore" when I want because it is acceptable within the bounds of our relationship, but should someone else say that they may well have a very hostile Homburg on their hands.

i view the word "doormat" very much like the word "cripple." it's an intentionally derogatory word describing a very real condition/affliction/personality, often one that cannot be controlled. so it's like, while i may recognize that i am indeed, and the world at large sees me as a cripple, and refer to myself as cripple (flock that "differently abled stuff"), the label can still be painful because we live in a society in which being a cripple is still not very cool and difficult as heck.

 

[Netzach]

i get it, you are turned off by the spineless, no self-esteem, self-denigrating thing, which often comes with doormat types. you don't want someone coming to you crying and despairing over how much they hate themselves and can't help it, etc.

Non PC disclosure - Actually that makes me really hot. I just like it with a lot of conflict attached. I like it when it's not the only thing going on. I like a dose of self-loathing because it's fun to poke bruises. Double tripe scoop of hotness from "I can't help it."

but if doormat is changed to "service-oriented," that typically speaks of a person with more self-acceptance, more self-respect and as you say more dignity.

Again, I kind of require the one/two punch of someone with some serious self denigrating impulses AND....and what. And whatever. Something in addition. I'm greedy, I guess.

the thing is, it would take a really incredibly strong and determined submissive-natured person to be able to overcome and disregard, completely on their own, all the bashing and generally flocked up treatment one receives when they have such a personality. before i met Daddy, and well into our relationship even, i was every bit the "i'm an ugly, pathetic worthless piece of crap that no one will ever want" self-loathing doormat. people keep mentioning self-awareness here. well, i was definitely self-aware. i knew that i was a doormat, and i accepted that was just the way i was made. however i very much despaired over being dealt this particular hand, and totally hated that core aspect of my personality. it takes something pretty powerful and pretty amazing...in my case, a devoted Father and firm Master....in order to move beyond mere self-awareness and self-acceptance, to actually valuing and liking oneself.

This makes total sense to me, actually based on my interactions with H. Theres a ton to work with there. There's been amazing changes, some of which I could probably claim some credit for, but there's still a delicious, painful, doormat core.

I'm wondering if my issues can be reduced to "you just don't want anyone who's completely sane and comfortable because you're a psychological sadist."

 

[ownedsubgal]

Non PC disclosure - Actually that makes me really hot. I just like it with a lot of conflict attached. I like it when it's not the only thing going on. I like a dose of self-loathing because it's fun to poke bruises. Double tripe scoop of hotness from "I can't help it."

Again, I kind of require the one/two punch of someone with some serious self denigrating impulses AND....and what. And whatever. Something in addition. I'm greedy, I guess.

well yeah, as i read it you dig it when you have some juicy worthless pond scum buttons to push. but if someone is stuck in that one setting...what's to push? and moreover, how would that person be tolerable on a regular basis? that's all i was saying. and yeah you are greedy, but what Domly type isn't?

 

[Netzach]

well yeah, as i read it you dig it when you have some juicy worthless pond scum buttons to push. but if someone is stuck in that one setting...what's to push? and moreover, how would that person be tolerable on a regular basis? that's all i was saying. and yeah you are greedy, but what Domly type isn't?

I don't know. The ones who like healthy puppies best?

mmm, also, I feel strongly that if H is with the big bad outside world EXACTLY how he is with me, guess what happens. Yeah, that.

So it behooves him and it behooves me to make it a compartment. I know our opinions probably diverge on this, but that's how I see it. The safer it is to roll over with me and the less safe it is to roll over out there, well, the better off he's going to be. Whether we all like it or not.

It doesn't bother me if D/s SM and M/s are a kind of social safety valve for people who can't cut it in the power hierarchies external to it. I know it's not integrated super happy shiny, but I think integration in one's personal life is sometimes overrated.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I don't know. The ones who like healthy puppies best?

mmm, also, I feel strongly that if H is with the big bad outside world EXACTLY how he is with me, guess what happens. Yeah, that.

So it behooves him and it behooves me to make it a compartment. I know our opinions probably diverge on this, but that's how I see it. The safer it is to roll over with me and the less safe it is to roll over out there, well, the better off he's going to be. Whether we all like it or not.

this is absolutely true, and this is the thing that makes me so angry and frustrated. the reality is that in society at large you cannot be successful in life, cannot be generally respected in life, cannot strive forward in life, as an overly submissive, constantly surrendering and acquiescing to everyone and everything who comes across your path. it is very beneficial and often absolutely necessary to learn how to play the role of someone entirely different....and that's the problem, as i see it. why am i nothing in this world unless i stifle who i am entirely and daily wear the mask of someone completely contrary to all that i am? and what on earth is healthy about that?

also, not everyone has the skills of your H...that ability to compartmentalize, to shut it out completely over here, and let it all go completely over there. frankly such skill is mind-boggling and awe-inspiring to someone like me. my masks have always been very wobbly and see-thru, but they also made love or even like of self impossible. so say i were in H's position...the more i achieved in life, the smoother my path due to wearing this completely false persona....the more i would hate and be repulsed by my true self, no matter if there were a safe place with a great Dominant who adored me raw and naked.

it is like this huge hang-up i have about wearing makeup. i have never worn makeup, because i fear that if i DO, and look fantastic, people will call me beautiful and oh-so-pretty, and then i will have no choice but to conclude that the "real" me is ugly and quasimodo-ish, not fit for public viewing.

yeah yeah i'm weird and crazy or whatever...but i am just really impatient and hungry for a world where submissive personalities are accepted and appreciated, where you can survive on your own without having to totally discard all that you are.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

Why not? So far as I can tell, they do as they're fucking told. That is the core of the whole affair, isn't it?

It is MY opinion that being submissive to everyone is being a door mat and I have a right to my opinion on it.

 

[Tawny_Temptress]

I'm whining. So there.


It's like it's cool to be a slave, as long as you point out that you're some in-your-face go-getter the rest of your life. "I'm MASTER'S SLAVE, and I don't submit to ANYBODY ELSE, and I have a DOMINANT personality."

So, basically you got pissed off at me because you assumed my definition of door mat and yours was the same.

 

[rida]

Beautifully put, Rida.
.

Thank you

*snip*
the thing is, it would take a really incredibly strong and determined submissive-natured person to be able to overcome and disregard, completely on their own, all the bashing and generally flocked up treatment one receives when they have such a personality. before i met Daddy, and well into our relationship even, i was every bit the "i'm an ugly, pathetic worthless piece of crap that no one will ever want" self-loathing doormat. people keep mentioning self-awareness here. well, i was definitely self-aware. i knew that i was a doormat, and i accepted that was just the way i was made. however i very much despaired over being dealt this particular hand, and totally hated that core aspect of my personality. it takes something pretty powerful and pretty amazing...in my case, a devoted Father and firm Master....in order to move beyond mere self-awareness and self-acceptance, to actually valuing and liking oneself.

this is absolutely true, and this is the thing that makes me so angry and frustrated. the reality is that in society at large you cannot be successful in life, cannot be generally respected in life, cannot strive forward in life, as an overly submissive, constantly surrendering and acquiescing to everyone and everything who comes across your path. it is very beneficial and often absolutely necessary to learn how to play the role of someone entirely different....and that's the problem, as i see it. why am i nothing in this world unless i stifle who i am entirely and daily wear the mask of someone completely contrary to all that i am? and what on earth is healthy about that?

also, not everyone has the skills of your H...that ability to compartmentalize, to shut it out completely over here, and let it all go completely over there. frankly such skill is mind-boggling and awe-inspiring to someone like me. my masks have always been very wobbly and see-thru, but they also made love or even like of self impossible. so say i were in H's position...the more i achieved in life, the smoother my path due to wearing this completely false persona....the more i would hate and be repulsed by my true self, no matter if there were a safe place with a great Dominant who adored me raw and naked.

I've never lived in the US, so I'm going to put this as a disclaimer.

However, from what I've been reading here and in other places, from what I've been seeing on TV (for what is worth it, but it still portray main-stream values and attitudes), from being married to a US guy and hearing his and his families stories and from dealing since she was 7 with my stepdaughter that lives in the US I get the impression that US society is indeed a "loser" VS "winner" society. There is no praise or value attached on humility or service.

Yeah yeah, they teach you when you are little that you have to "share" and "cooperate" and be "respectful" and "tolerant", but the reality is that the world around them is basically a "homo homini lupus" place, where unless you stomp on somebody you get stomped on.

I'm lucky that I did not grew up there. I had a lot of self-esteem problem myself while growing up, typical of the teen-age years, I'd say. But I was indeed "uglier" and "less pretty" or so I perceived myself, and also somewhat of a geek. It could have been hell, in an average US high-school. Instead it was just an awkward time, where I tried to be someone that I was not and resented it and basically was worse of for it. And I decided to be myself, but also to protect myself.

I'm also lucky that I now live in a society that values respect and humbleness, where service worker really treat you well, where customers are mostly nice as well (you get the mean spirited people everywhere, so here is no exception) and you don't look to each other as potential enemy. I'm not ambitious either so I don't care that I cannot have a career because I'm not assertive enough. But at the same time I have no problem with assertiveness being a requirement for a career: if you are going to be in charge is a quality you need. Different story with being an "asshole", but personally, I think and I've seen that "assholes" careers are usually short lived, at least in the big wide world outside of the US.

As for the self-awarness and acceptance, it did not come over-night. Nor once I was out of high-school. What I learned to do was trust my instinct, keep my guard up and a low profile to stay away from "dangerous" people.

I think that I have finally accepted everything that I am and learned to love it, warts and all, for real only in the last few years. And I'm 40.

 

[Homburg]

It is MY opinion that being submissive to everyone is being a door mat and I have a right to my opinion on it.

Don't get pissy. You were the one saying that a "real dom" wouldn't like a doormat, thus managing to be insulting both to doms and doormats at the same time.

And, yes, you are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am entitled to consider it thoughtless and insulting.

 

[Bi_Kitty]

Just to let everyone know....

Real dom's, I wouldnt think, would want a door mat.

Bunny and I were up all night trying to decide who was going tell her Dom and Domme that they were not real. And it finally came down to us drawing sticks; she got the shortest stick (but that's her fault, too, for trusting me not to rig it).

 

[ownedsubgal]

It is MY opinion that being submissive to everyone is being a door mat and I have a right to my opinion on it.

there's nothing wrong with your definition of doormat, most of us here would agree with it. what's insulting and rather ignorant is your belief that 1. being a doormat is a negative/bad thing, and 2. that no "real" Dominant would find such a person desirable.

 

[Keroin]

So, question...at the risk of offending everyone yet again...if the very submissive are that way by nature and thus cannot help how they are then does the same apply to the "assholes" at the other end of the spectrum?

I have a friend who very much sits on the asshole side of the equation and I would argue just as strongly that his pushiness, his aggression, his disregard for the feelings of others is very much a part of his nature. He is the guy that will quite happily take advantage of those who won't stand up to him. His nature has caused him a sufficient enough amount of grief that he has had to learn to adjust his behaviour but, just as with the subs who have to fake being tough, he has to fake being nice and cooperative.

Should we all just accept that he is who he is? Should he not also be valued? Because, I have to say, his assholishness has its benefits sometimes, not just for him but for those he loves as well.

 

[Homburg]

So, question...at the risk of offending everyone yet again...if the very submissive are that way by nature and thus cannot help how they are then does the same apply to the "assholes" at the other end of the spectrum?

I have a friend who very much sits on the asshole side of the equation and I would argue just as strongly that his pushiness, his aggression, his disregard for the feelings of others is very much a part of his nature. He is the guy that will quite happily take advantage of those who won't stand up to him. His nature has caused him a sufficient enough amount of grief that he has had to learn to adjust his behaviour but, just as with the subs who have to fake being tough, he has to fake being nice and cooperative.

Should we all just accept that he is who he is? Should he not also be valued? Because, I have to say, his assholishness has its benefits sometimes, not just for him but for those he loves as well.

As an asshole myself (though of perhaps a different stripe than your friend), I have a dog in this fight. Personally, yes. Confrontational people might suck, so far as some are concerned, but they do get certain jobs done.

I personally have no problem being called an asshole, any more than I have a problem being one when I need to. In my case, it's not a 24/7 thing. It's just another tool in the toolbox. I'm confrontational when it is useful. And, well, when I'm riled. That too.

 

[Keroin]

As an asshole myself (though of perhaps a different stripe than your friend), I have a dog in this fight. Personally, yes. Confrontational people might suck, so far as some are concerned, but they do get certain jobs done.

I personally have no problem being called an asshole, any more than I have a problem being one when I need to. In my case, it's not a 24/7 thing. It's just another tool in the toolbox. I'm confrontational when it is useful. And, well, when I'm riled. That too.

See, I'm with you. But I'm sure you agree that to let your asshole self run wild would be a recipe for disaster? It is in everyone's best interest for you to learn to control and channel your natural instincts, I would suspect. I know that until my asshole friend learned to control his, he was constantly running into the same walls, which in his case meant not getting promoted at his job.

BTW, he calls the asshole part of himself his "Gremlins" and he always talks about how he has to keep the Gremlins under control.

I guess I'm just seeing here that to suggest a very submissive person needs to accept some responsibility for themselves is regarded as cruel, judgmental and mean spirited, but no one seems to feel that way about asking the assholes to do the same.

As for my asshole friend, when I need someone in my corner, he's the first guy I'll call and I value him every bit as much as my friend who would never ever raise her voice or contradict anyone about anything. I can love and value them both for their polar opposite personality traits but still expect them to accept responsibility for themselves, and I don't think that makes me a judgmental bitch. Tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[ownedsubgal]

See, I'm with you. But I'm sure you agree that to let your asshole self run wild would be a recipe for disaster? It is in everyone's best interest for you to learn to control and channel your natural instincts, I would suspect. I know that until my asshole friend learned to control his, he was constantly running into the same walls, which in his case meant not getting promoted at his job.

BTW, he calls the asshole part of himself his "Gremlins" and he always talks about how he has to keep the Gremlins under control.

I guess I'm just seeing here that to suggest a very submissive person needs to accept some responsibility for themselves is regarded as cruel, judgmental and mean spirited, but no one seems to feel that way about asking the assholes to do the same.

As for my asshole friend, when I need someone in my corner, he's the first guy I'll call and I value him every bit as much as my friend who would never ever raise her voice or contradict anyone about anything. I can love and value them both for their polar opposite personality traits but still expect them to accept responsibility for themselves, and I don't think that makes me a judgmental bitch. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Keroin, what submissive person here is saying that they don't feel they should accept responsibility for themselves and their actions? it's not about not wanting to accept responsibility, it's about just being plain sick and tired of having to go through life either struggling, lying and masking completely who you are (because if it is not complete, it just won't work), or having to accept that people are just going to constantly screw you over, use you up, and abuse you. and of course no one will care, because after all, you "allowed" it to happen. call me an idealist, but i just long for a world where i can just step outside the door and be myself...even 60% myself...without being punished for it.

it's not so simple as acquiring "survival skills," it is not a matter of a switch that can be turned on or off, or a conscious choice one can make. before i was owned, the only thing that was ever effective for me in keeping myself safe was to pretty much avoid people: don't answer phones or doors, only venture out in public for absolute necessities (school/work/groceries), and even then be quick about it, keeping the head down and making eye contact with no one. because for me, even returning a stranger's smile can be dangerous. i know that if they demand something of me, i will not be able to refuse them. obviously, that makes for a very sad and lonely life, and not one worth living to be honest. it's not asking for too much imo to wish that life could just be a bit safer and more livable for submissive types, rather than just being told that we need to just kill all that we are and learn to be someone entirely different.

 

[Keroin]

Keroin, what submissive person here is saying that they don't feel they should accept responsibility for themselves and their actions? it's not about not wanting to accept responsibility, it's about just being plain sick and tired of having to go through life either struggling, lying and masking completely who you are (because if it is not complete, it just won't work), or having to accept that people are just going to constantly screw you over, use you up, and abuse you. and of course no one will care, because after all, you "allowed" it to happen. call me an idealist, but i just long for a world where i can just step outside the door and be myself...even 60% myself...without being punished for it.

it's not so simple as acquiring "survival skills," it is not a matter of a switch that can be turned on or off, or a conscious choice one can make. before i was owned, the only thing that was ever effective for me in keeping myself safe was to pretty much avoid people: don't answer phones or doors, only venture out in public for absolute necessities (school/work/groceries), and even then be quick about it, keeping the head down and making eye contact with no one. because for me, even returning a stranger's smile can be dangerous. i know that if they demand something of me, i will not be able to refuse them. obviously, that makes for a very sad and lonely life, and not one worth living to be honest. it's not asking for too much imo to wish that life could just be a bit safer and more livable for submissive types, rather than just being told that we need to just kill all that we are and learn to be someone entirely different.

I agree that a world where everyone could be themselves 100% of the time - hey, I sure can't be myself all the time - is desirable but it's simply not possible. You are wired up to do whatever someone else demands and likewise others are wired up to take advantage of others at every opportunity and so on and so on. I think for people with extreme personality traits, of any stripe, life is going to be difficult.

I asked previously how someone like me might make life easier or better for people like you - in real life - but no one has yet answered my question and Bunny seemed to find it offensive (?). So how can I know how to make this world a better place for you if no one is willing to tell me how?

Bear in mind, I am participating in an online discussion, so the opinions I share here I would not necessarily share openly in real life.

 

[Homburg]

See, I'm with you. But I'm sure you agree that to let your asshole self run wild would be a recipe for disaster? It is in everyone's best interest for you to learn to control and channel your natural instincts, I would suspect. I know that until my asshole friend learned to control his, he was constantly running into the same walls, which in his case meant not getting promoted at his job.

BTW, he calls the asshole part of himself his "Gremlins" and he always talks about how he has to keep the Gremlins under control.

I see where you are going with this, but, by nature of the example chosen, the asshole is better equipped to control his gremlins than the highly submissive person is to control theirs. The asshole gets what he wants by his own nature, while the highly submissive person gets other people what they want, again, by their very nature. As a result, I don't think it works as an example here.

I guess I'm just seeing here that to suggest a very submissive person needs to accept some responsibility for themselves is regarded as cruel, judgmental and mean spirited, but no one seems to feel that way about asking the assholes to do the same.

As for my asshole friend, when I need someone in my corner, he's the first guy I'll call and I value him every bit as much as my friend who would never ever raise her voice or contradict anyone about anything. I can love and value them both for their polar opposite personality traits but still expect them to accept responsibility for themselves, and I don't think that makes me a judgmental bitch. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Eh, I don't think that you are being judgemental. I think that you are asking a dog to be a cat. The sort of personality we are talking about here is explicitly directed towards seeking other-control, not exercising self-control. This is not to say that OSG, for example, can't tell herself "No" to another piece of chocolate cake. It is more an unwillingness to say that same "No" to anyone higher in the authority food chain than themselves. And with some people, virtually everyone is higher in that chain.

Let's take it in a different direction. There are people in this world with very serious mental issues such as serious psychoses, crippling synaesthesia, non-functional autism and the like. These people cannot actually take care of themselves in a meaningful way, and are often institutionalised. viv's brother is in an institution due to autism that prevents him from taking care of himself. Do we blame someone with autism? No, we try to help them.

I am certainly not arguing that doormats are non-functional, but it is so very odd to think that they may well be different from you and I? And that the difference is not so pathologically heavy that people notice it and treat it, yet society derides it. Asperger's is often called the light version of autism, and reflects serious social difficulties. There is something of a polar opposite to it in William's Syndrome. This is a person with very strong social abilities but no ability to handle math, logic, sequencing, etc. This is the sort of person who could hold a very entertaining conversation with you, but can't follow the directions on a box of mac and cheese. Yet this sort of person, while having an issue that is documented and recognised, would not necessarily be seen as all that off in our society. Probably scatterbrained and ditzy, but not "broken".

Why then should someone like OSG or viv be considered broken because they can't really say "no"? Why should they be told that they, much like everyone else, HAVE to take responsibility for themselves? Sure as an adult alone in the big bad world, that's how you survive. Not everyone faces the world alone. Some people are really good at not being alone, in fact. They tend to stay in relationships far past the expiration date to prevent that. I can think of quite a few, in fact, and in a relationship with two right now.

Maybe I'm being all sorts of touchy-feely liberal here and saying that everyone has value somehow. I defended the assholes of the world earlier, sure. I guess I'm just saying that some people are built differently. That's just life. Not everyone is built to take that sort of responsibility easily.

 

[Homburg]

I asked previously how someone like me might make life easier or better for people like you - in real life - but no one has yet answered my question and Bunny seemed to find it offensive (?). So how can I know how to make this world a better place for you if no one is willing to tell me how?

When one of my friends bitches about some guy being pussy-whipped, I always say something like, "Hey, maybe that's what works for him, y'know?". Or, "I know people like that, and some of them are really happy." When one of my female friends does the same about some woman, my response is usually the same.

It may not make things easier for that individual person, but it might lower the heat a bit. Not sure what else to do, as I can't personally weed out the predators that take advantage of such people. John Law looks down on such things.