The Doormat Discussion

[rida]

I think my mom was wrong. She was wrong about a lot of things.

I don't know.
I think she had some valuable points if taken outside of a power-exchange relationship. Especially this part:

She'd say "and if you decide it's a bad thing then you must be able to stand up, stand up and confront it, then either try to fix it , if it's fixable or stand up, walk away and never look back." So you have to be strong, you have to be smart, you have to be willing to expose yourself to find out.

 

[YourCaptor]

Primarily my grievance here is over those doormats who get the message and as a result, do as told.

It kicks up my compassion into overdrive, so close to liberation just to have to put on another face.

Not to mention it’s taking a big slice out of my dating pool.

I get really bitter thinking about how many people out their are still fitting in.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Primarily my grievance here is over those doormats who get the message and as a result, do as told.

It kicks up my compassion into overdrive, so close to liberation just to have to put on another face.

Not to mention it’s taking a big slice out of my dating pool.

I get really bitter thinking about how many people out their are still fitting in.

those on your side need to speak up a bit louder, let us know that it's okay to be this way. if you're getting message drilled in constantly that being the way you are is bad, wrong, stupid, undesirable, worthless, mindless, etc...it can be unbelievably difficult to stand against that.

 

[Netzach]

Can I please visit this postfeminist planet? Because I still think the message that good girls do whatever makes everyone around them smile is pretty freaking pervasive. One rejects this only at great personal cost. So I guess my heart isn't bleeding because I don't feel like I've gotten this wonderful skating-through pass that the innate pleasers seem to think comes with being wired otherwise.

Because the message I've gotten consistently is that if everyone isn't made happy and comfortable by my behavior all the time there's something wrong with me. My mother has a much more tolerable baseline place in the world with her doormat-like tendencies.

IE: That "girl power" schtick is cute, but you don't really think we meant it do you? Female empowerment is mandatory within a certain limited RANGE of options, and yes, that absolutely bites.

 

[Homburg]

Can I please visit this postfeminist planet?

Fay Weldon: 'Women would find life easier if they picked up men's socks and cleaned the loo'

IE: That "girl power" schtick is cute, but you don't really think we meant it do you?

I really, really wanted to make an off-colour joke about liking a slice of lemon with my tea, unsweetened, but that would be crass even for me. Especially as I am dealing with a quickly growing little female version of me insofar as power goes, and I want her to have the option to live out her life as she wishes. Youngest daughter may be a pleaser with a love for domesticity, but Eldest Daughter tells people what to do, period.

There is something both amusing and spooky about looking in your nine year old offspring's eyes and realising that she sees you as a peer. Currently. And probably begrudgingly. And she means it, too.

 

[BiBunny]

It's a fine line to walk, and I don't think anyone can do it and do it well.

Netz is looked at as too demanding and too exacting. I'm looked as ambition-less and weak. It's not ok for anyone to just be who they are. Meh. I don't do well with the status quo. Sometimes I wonder if any of us do.

 

[Keroin]

It's a fine line to walk, and I don't think anyone can do it and do it well.

Netz is looked at as too demanding and too exacting. I'm looked as ambition-less and weak. It's not ok for anyone to just be who they are. Meh. I don't do well with the status quo. Sometimes I wonder if any of us do.

I like my status and its quo.

I've existed at both ends of the spectrum - fanatic people pleaser and outspoken, ambitious, ladder-climber. Neither worked for me. I re-invented and found a semi-middle ground, with outlets for my sub-like tendencies, and I'm happy there.

Here's a little nod to irony, though...

During my "I must make everyone happy and never cause conflict" phase, many moons ago, I generally succeeded in making no one happy, especially myself, and was always embroiled in some kind of ulcer-inducing conflict. When I shed that persona, started saying "no", (frequently), and generally discovered the Joy of Selfishness, suddenly I was making people happy left and right. Conflicts happened but they were infrequent and short lived.

*Shrugs*

Who knew?

 

[graceanne]

The issue isn't necessarily that doormats are looked badly upon or that really dominant women are looked badly upon, it's that society (as a whole) doesn't like extremes in people, so if you rate (on the submissive/dominant scale) on either end people are gonna give you crap. They want you to be 'normal' and 'average' so that you don't rock the boat.

 

[BiBunny]

The issue isn't necessarily that doormats are looked badly upon or that really dominant women are looked badly upon, it's that society (as a whole) doesn't like extremes in people, so if you rate (on the submissive/dominant scale) on either end people are gonna give you crap. They want you to be 'normal' and 'average' so that you don't rock the boat.

Yes, that.

 

[Keroin]

The issue isn't necessarily that doormats are looked badly upon or that really dominant women are looked badly upon, it's that society (as a whole) doesn't like extremes in people, so if you rate (on the submissive/dominant scale) on either end people are gonna give you crap. They want you to be 'normal' and 'average' so that you don't rock the boat.

I don't know about this. All the crap I had to deal with at either end was all of my own doing. It wasn't about other people's expectations, it was about mine and how they were often not being met, not even close.

Examples:

I take on ten tasks that I have no reasonable hope of completing because I just couldn't say no to anyone. I end up stressing myself to the point I'm physically ill and either doing a half-assed job or not finishing most or all of the things I agreed to do.

or

I'm so pushy about getting what I want that people start backing away because they feel uncomfortable and intimidated. They start finding excuses not to help me or interact with me. So the support I need in order to get what I want vanishes.

Both of those situations have happened to me. It wasn't about people not wanting me to be extreme. Hell, if someone promises me they'll do something then they flake out because they've taken on way more than they can deal with, just to avoid saying no, I'm going to be pissed off. And if someone expects my help but treats me like their whipping boy, well, I'm going to avoid them like the plague.

There's nothing "wrong" with either end of the spectrum, unless there is.

 

[Netzach]

Fay Weldon: 'Women would find life easier if they picked up men's socks and cleaned the loo'



I really, really wanted to make an off-colour joke about liking a slice of lemon with my tea, unsweetened, but that would be crass even for me. Especially as I am dealing with a quickly growing little female version of me insofar as power goes, and I want her to have the option to live out her life as she wishes. Youngest daughter may be a pleaser with a love for domesticity, but Eldest Daughter tells people what to do, period.

There is something both amusing and spooky about looking in your nine year old offspring's eyes and realising that she sees you as a peer. Currently. And probably begrudgingly. And she means it, too.

I have to make the coffee? WTF? News flash to me. However I do accept that I will always consider the toilet dirty before someone with a penis will. Always.

I saw my mother as a peer. But she played the part, that was the problem. Hommie, can't you relate to the "having to stow your natural impulses" burden? I mean MDoms get this too...

 

[Netzach]

I don't know about this. All the crap I had to deal with at either end was all of my own doing. It wasn't about other people's expectations, it was about mine and how they were often not being met, not even close.

Examples:

I take on ten tasks that I have no reasonable hope of completing because I just couldn't say no to anyone. I end up stressing myself to the point I'm physically ill and either doing a half-assed job or not finishing most or all of the things I agreed to do.

or

I'm so pushy about getting what I want that people start backing away because they feel uncomfortable and intimidated. They start finding excuses not to help me or interact with me. So the support I need in order to get what I want vanishes.

Both of those situations have happened to me. It wasn't about people not wanting me to be extreme. Hell, if someone promises me they'll do something then they flake out because they've taken on way more than they can deal with, just to avoid saying no, I'm going to be pissed off. And if someone expects my help but treats me like their whipping boy, well, I'm going to avoid them like the plague.

There's nothing "wrong" with either end of the spectrum, unless there is.

This has been my experience, more or less. The band of acceptable behavior is narrow, but you don't have to be a total social outcast to be able to sing I did it my way once in a while and not go nuts.

Maybe I'm just learning more flexibility. This is why, thank God, I run things in bed like I do.

 

[Keroin]

This has been my experience, more or less. The band of acceptable behavior is narrow, but you don't have to be a total social outcast to be able to sing I did it my way once in a while and not go nuts.

Maybe I'm just learning more flexibility. This is why, thank God, I run things in bed like I do.

Flexibility. Yes. Big point.

Also, I think Golden Rule. I wouldn't want someone behaving like this with me, so logically...?

 

[graceanne]

I don't know about this. All the crap I had to deal with at either end was all of my own doing. It wasn't about other people's expectations, it was about mine and how they were often not being met, not even close.

I, honestly, think that people bring on upon themselves most of their problems. Of course, foresight is better than hindsight and all that, but if you are an overly submissive person you are more likely to over extend yourself. If you're overly dominant you're more likely to piss people off.

And society does have expectations of people. Everyone does. Some people are just more likely to notice these. Especially those who have over critical parents constantly pointing out how they're not living up to the societal 'norm', rather like bunny and netz.

Bunny, and netz, have a legitimate complaint. It would probably bother me more, that I don't live up to the norm, but I'm pretty thick skinned. I, honestly, don't care what people, as a whole, think of me or my life.

Although, I must admit, it bugs me when the kids ask why I don't have a job.

 

[Homburg]

I don't do well with the status quo. Sometimes I wonder if any of us do.

My relationship with the status quo is just ducky.

1) I'm male
2) I look caucasian
3) I'm straight
4) I'm dominant

Add these together and I pretty much am the supposed status quo. Now, add in:

5) I'm oddly well adjusted, in my own little maladjusted way

And you see why I'm cool with the parts of the status quo that I'm not in sync with. The short answer is that I look enough like the status quo that other people don't notice, and when they do, I don't really mind. Fuck em.

But, I'm male. I can say that and not be outside the lines insofar as society and self-image are concerned.

--

I have to make the coffee? WTF? News flash to me. However I do accept that I will always consider the toilet dirty before someone with a penis will. Always.

The comment about the coffee got me too. Hell, the whole article did. I was on board with some of it. She was spot on with a few comments, but they were surrounded by presumptive wackiness.

I saw my mother as a peer. But she played the part, that was the problem. Hommie, can't you relate to the "having to stow your natural impulses" burden? I mean MDoms get this too...

I totally relate. This is another reason why I didn't make the joke. I get that I have to choke back on what I would normally do lest society see me as the monster I sometimes feel that I am. And I feel that way because society really does see what I do as monstrous. It is part of the adjustment process to come to terms with that. For Mdoms, it's easier. Yeah, you're an utter bastard, but at least we've got software in place to process what you are, ya wifebeater.

And I don't play the peer. I make the rules, I am "da king", and it is acknowledged commonly, in a light-hearted joking fashion. But Eldest Daughter? The rules only matter because she hasn't figured out how to beat me at my own game. Yet. And because I'm bigger than she is, but guile is rapidly becoming her equalising force.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't make the coffee. It's been classified as man's work by the man in my house. Like grilling and taking out the trash. I can do all of these things, but who am I to contradict authority?

 

[eastern sun]

I think our capitalist culture thrives (literally) on making us all feel uncomfortable with ourselves. So we are driven to be consumers of the wide variety of products and services that will fix whatever problem we have.

There's a whole generation of women my age - the kids who watched their mothers burn their bras - who grew up totally confused about who we are supposed to be. I was told from a very young age - "don't be a doormat." And the people who used the phrase were the women before me, rebelling against the 50's gender roles in the 60's.

They meant - don't accept the traditional roles. Don't go to college to find a good husband. Go to college to build your own career. Don't sacrifice your own ambitions to support those of your husband or children. Create your own destiny. You can do it all. You can have a career, break the glass ceiling, raise uber-kids, and be a fucking sex goddess with your rocking husband.

Being "a doormat" meant you didn't care about yourself. You'd lost your vision. Your sense of purpose. You took on roles and tasks that weren't good for you, because you didn't know what was good for you.

You allowed people to walk all over you. You were left behind. You were hurt. While others advanced and prospered. Your labor served their goals, not your own.

And, like others have written, it meant you had no healthy self-esteem. You were a sucker, gullible, serving "the man" and his self-interested, oppressive ways.

I just returned from a visit with my best friends from high school, none of whom are married. None have children. Most are struggling with their careers.

And it isn't just a case of being "too submissive." You can be "too dominant," too. As Netzach has clearly stated.

It serves a purpose to have us all in this state of confusion. And sometimes the people who confuse us have good intentions, doing what they think is best.

One could spend a whole lifetime trying to understand how to live Shakespeare's advice - "to thine own self be true" - and, in my opinion, it would be a life well spent.

 

[eastern sun]

and my husband's comment as he read over my shoulder -

"doormat . . . my kind of girl"

 

[Netzach]

I think our capitalist culture thrives (literally) on making us all feel uncomfortable with ourselves. So we are driven to be consumers of the wide variety of products and services that will fix whatever problem we have.

Or fix someone else's problem.

Like, how can we cheapen labor and still have someone make and raise the babies?

If you don't buy into the must do everything hysteria, you're not moving the machine like it wants.

 

[YourCaptor]

those on your side need to speak up a bit louder, let us know that it's okay to be this way. if you're getting message drilled in constantly that being the way you are is bad, wrong, stupid, undesirable, worthless, mindless, etc...it can be unbelievably difficult to stand against that.

I have considered it. Maybe I’ll try my hand at it, someday, need to see what my position is then. Sorry, but I wont just set out randomly.

Can I please visit this postfeminist planet? Because I still think the message that good girls do whatever makes everyone around them smile is pretty freaking pervasive. One rejects this only at great personal cost. So I guess my heart isn't bleeding because I don't feel like I've gotten this wonderful skating-through pass that the innate pleasers seem to think comes with being wired otherwise.

This is the fun feminist planet. We thought you knew.

You know just cause I feel compassion for the doormat side of the narrow band does not imply commentary about the other side. You don’t see me jumping in for dominant women cause frankly, you go take care of yourself. I’ll gladly put in my flag for the fight against control over females as a group. But when it comes to the individual ass kicker complaining about not kicking ass, all I can really tell you is man up about it.

I think our capitalist culture thrives (literally) on making us all feel uncomfortable with ourselves. So we are driven to be consumers of the wide variety of products and services that will fix whatever problem we have.

True, and while capitalism is a runway system, facts are it is still a stem based on human nature, and not only that but it also functions on human nature.

If we where not this way that market would not work. It's fucked up to exploit it, but if you look at the rout, it's still just us.

 

[jenniferbaby]

One could spend a whole lifetime trying to understand how to live Shakespeare's advice - "to thine own self be true" - and, in my opinion, it would be a life well spent.

Beautiful words. It pretty much sums up why I'm on Lit--and on this planet.

 

[eastern sun]

True, and while capitalism is a runway system, facts are it is still a stem based on human nature, and not only that but it also functions on human nature.

If we where not this way that market would not work. It's fucked up to exploit it, but if you look at the rout, it's still just us.

A sincere question . . . Do you think we're "doormats" to allow ourselves to be exploited?

 

[Keroin]

And, like others have written, it meant you had no healthy self-esteem.

This is interesting because there are pyl's on this board who I see as having rock solid self esteem - including, (but certainly not limited to), ITW, Rida, CM, Syd, eastern sun, MIS, even OSG. Sure, we all have moments of self doubt but overall, plenty of pyls here seem to have embraced their status and feel no shame in it. However, if I had a dollar for every pyl post I've read that contains the following sorts of phrases...

"I'm stupid..."

"I'm ridiculous..."

"I'm an idiot..."

"I'm sorry, I shouldn't say anything..."

(etc)

...then I would be flying home in Business Class. This is where I see the unhealthy self esteem. Anyone else notice this? Thoughts?

 

[YourCaptor]

A sincere question . . . Do you think we're "doormats" to allow ourselves to be exploited?

To allow oneself to be exploited, that's fairly doormat.

Only I don't think its that simple. Few ever submit themselves to be exploited, sometimes however people will lay down. When you're beat whatother have you to do but struggle along, according to the rules of the ones standing over you.

You struggle too long and people will seek to be helpless. They drink till their unaccountable, get high and escape, sell drugs and blame the system, look away from those even bellow them cause of no prospects. Buy into all the shit that will make the struggle go away, yet most of those things only serve to alienate use more and more. Alienate us not just form others but from ourselves too.

That's not the same as a doormat. These people are desperate, conquered. Doormats are not that.

 

[BiBunny]

This is interesting because there are pyl's on this board who I see as having rock solid self esteem - including, (but certainly not limited to), ITW, Rida, CM, Syd, eastern sun, MIS, even OSG. Sure, we all have moments of self doubt but overall, plenty of pyls here seem to have embraced their status and feel no shame in it. However, if I had a dollar for every pyl post I've read that contains the following sorts of phrases...

"I'm stupid..."

"I'm ridiculous..."

"I'm an idiot..."

"I'm sorry, I shouldn't say anything..."

(etc)

...then I would be flying home in Business Class. This is where I see the unhealthy self esteem. Anyone else notice this? Thoughts?

I'm guilty of it. I just have no idea what to say about it. That's just me, is all.