The Doormat Discussion

[ataxia.girl]

my husband prefers strong intelligent women. i pull off the role pretty well but i do sometimes feel like i'm being a doormat by pretending to be something i'm not truly comfortable with because it is what he desires. i'm highly sensitive to perceived expectations on me. i often conform to an expectation without thinking and yet in some things i can't. i can't pull off strong, confident, sexy woman in the bedroom. i just can't and living with NOT being able to fulfill a perceived desire is very emotionally uncomfortable for me. i sometimes practice NOT fulfilling expectations and enduring the anxiety because i know the expectation is wrong. That doesn't make the anxiety go away though and i always feel that pull to just do whatever it is they expect in order to make that anxious, raw, nervy feeling go away. Problem is if i give in i then have to deal with the resentment.

 

[CutieMouse]

this viewpoint is a very popular one which i've heard many times, and i can only say that it comes from those who have no earthly idea what it means and what it feels like to live in a state of powerlessness, of which submissiveness is only one. in life, i have only been hurt, stomped upon, cruelly abused, tortured, neglected...only because i willed it, allowed it to be so. pop psych tells us this is so. and perhaps they are right...after all, i could have just killed myself.

OSG, I am sincerely awestruck by the depth of your relationship and your submission; I must admit that when I first started posting at Lit, I didn't understand it. But over the years I've come to look for your perspective, because doormat or not, you are one hell of a woman. However, please do not presume to think I do not understand what it is like to live in a state of powerlessness. Or that I've never suffered or been neglected, abused, or whatever else. I rarely discuss my history, because I choose not to; that does not mean that I do not have one, or that I don't know what I'm talking about.

As humans, we all have an instinct for self-preservation; this instinct shows up in different ways. I do not believe you "willed" harmful things to happen to you, or that you are a doormat. I do believe you survived them, and posts about your relationship always give me a smile because your happiness (even when things are hard) shines through.

I said I wasn't going to post again, but I can't resist pointing out the irony here. Many of the attitudes I see in this thread are the exact same ones that caused me to post it in the first place.

Master and Mistress love this particular doormat just fine, oddly enough. Funny that.

I feel the need to clarify something here... when I pointed out that people are only taken advantage of to the degree they allow it, I was not saying [generic] you are asking to be taken advantage of, or that it's your fault, or it's bad.

It's like when I was married. I stayed about 8 years longer than I should have, and everyone around me thought he took advantage of me - that I was a doormat. But he didn't take advantage of me; he took what I willingly gave. How was I being taken advantage of when I made the conscious choice to be that person, to live that life, to be okay with who I was at that point in time?

(And I still tend to put up with far more shit in relationships than most women would, but that's my issue to make peace with, and not something I care to change about myself...)

 

[BiBunny]

(And I still tend to put up with far more shit in relationships than most women would, but that's my issue to make peace with, and not something I care to change about myself...)

Yes, exactly. I bitch about how I am and the way people treat me, but I'd rather be like this than be a self-centered asshole. I've accepted it. So why do the self-appointed BDSM Police get to tell me there's something wrong with me and that a "real" Dom/me wouldn't want someone like me, again? Just curious.

That's not really directed at you, CM. That last sentence sounds like something I'd say and just served as my jumping-off point.

 

[ownedsubgal]

In your case, OSG, you sound like you fit your Daddy's expectation like hand in glove. What matters outside that? You've won.

Homburg, i get your positive intentions, and that's cool. yes, i found a wonderful Dominant man who happens to love me and my "doormatish" submissive personality very much, and that's extremely fortunate and fine and dandy for me. however there are plenty of other submissive folks out there who are not so lucky, and who daily have to endure the criticism, disgust, disrespect and abuse that comes with being wired this way, and not being able to successfully play that assertive role. it's the general public stigma against submissiveness that needs to change, as well as the way it's considered perfectly acceptable to treat such people like garbage (because after all they "let" it happen). also, just because i found my own safe and happy place doesn't mean i don't still get plenty of grief over all this, and still get labeled by the lifestyle "community" at large as wrong and defective, and giving WIITWD a bad name, something i'm sure BiBunny and others can relate to.

 

[CutieMouse]

Yes, exactly. I bitch about how I am and the way people treat me, but I'd rather be like this than be a self-centered asshole. I've accepted it. So why do the self-appointed BDSM Police get to tell me there's something wrong with me and that a "real" Dom/me wouldn't want someone like me, again? Just curious.

That's not really directed at you, CM. That last sentence sounds like something I'd say and just served as my jumping-off point.

For the same reason that the self-appointed BDSM Police get to blather on about how "True Submissives" are XYZ. They will whether it's good manners to do so, or not. LOL

 

[BiBunny]

For the same reason that the self-appointed BDSM Police get to blather on about how "True Submissives" are XYZ. They will whether it's good manners to do so, or not. LOL

Yep. But if someone starts a thread about "true submissives," everyone will jump on the bandwagon with things like, "Well, what's true, anyway?" Everyone jumped on the bandwagon in this thread, too, but it wasn't to say, "People who judge are asses." Know what I mean?

 

[Homburg]

I guess I have come to view it this way. A sub choses to submit to a dom but a door mat just doesnt really feel they have a choice and get walked on.

Real dom's, I wouldnt think, would want a door mat.

Why not? So far as I can tell, they do as they're fucking told. That is the core of the whole affair, isn't it?

--

Homburg, i get your positive intentions, and that's cool. yes, i found a wonderful Dominant man who happens to love me and my "doormatish" submissive personality very much, and that's extremely fortunate and fine and dandy for me. however there are plenty of other submissive folks out there who are not so lucky, and who daily have to endure the criticism, disgust, disrespect and abuse that comes with being wired this way, and not being able to successfully play that assertive role. it's the general public stigma against submissiveness that needs to change, as well as the way it's considered perfectly acceptable to treat such people like garbage (because after all they "let" it happen). also, just because i found my own safe and happy place doesn't mean i don't still get plenty of grief over all this, and still get labeled by the lifestyle "community" at large as wrong and defective, and giving WIITWD a bad name, something i'm sure BiBunny and others can relate to.

I know, darlin, and I agree. I was just trying to make both the point and the example. You are set, and while your life may not be where others may be, it is an example of someone in your situation finding the place she should be. In other words, it happens. People, even seriously, bone-deep submissive people, can find the place that completes them.

Personally, I am the guy that argues with people when they down someone for being a doormat, or even wimpy. It's like the discussion previously about non-manly men. I will razz a guy for whining about being wimpy when I know he can change it, but I don't give any man grief for being that way if that is how they choose to be. It's one thing to be a certain way and whine, and another to be that way and accept it. Be what you are, and be cool with it. I am an asshole, and frequently raw and socially unacceptable. I fuck in bad ways and hurt the girls I love. I produce amateur porn. And I'm cool with it. If anyone gives me grief, its' on their head. But if I whined about this stuff, whined about the effect it has on my life, etc, then it is my problem.

No, not saying that you, or anyone else is whining. I'm saying that you need to own your own issues. Own your submissiveness, own your asshole-ness, own your predilection for cross-dressing, or gay sex, or whatever else makes you tick. Own it, and be cool with it, and what other people say becomes less important.

And I am surprised that the word "slave" hasn't come into discussion this more.

 

[intothewoods]

Yep. But if someone starts a thread about "true submissives," everyone will jump on the bandwagon with things like, "Well, what's true, anyway?" Everyone jumped on the bandwagon in this thread, too, but it wasn't to say, "People who judge are asses." Know what I mean?

I don't know, there have been a number of perspectives on this thread, just as there have been in discussions about what is a submissive, what is a slave, etc.

Just a pet peeve of mine about judging and all that...I have always held the point of view that there's nothing wrong with making judgments. We all make judgments all the time, otherwise no one would be capable of making any decisions in their life.

 

[BiBunny]

Why not? So far as I can tell, they do as they're fucking told. That is the core of the whole affair, isn't it?

--



I know, darlin, and I agree. I was just trying to make both the point and the example. You are set, and while your life may not be where others may be, it is an example of someone in your situation finding the place she should be. In other words, it happens. People, even seriously, bone-deep submissive people, can find the place that completes them.

Personally, I am the guy that argues with people when they down someone for being a doormat, or even wimpy. It's like the discussion previously about non-manly men. I will razz a guy for whining about being wimpy when I know he can change it, but I don't give any man grief for being that way if that is how they choose to be. It's one thing to be a certain way and whine, and another to be that way and accept it. Be what you are, and be cool with it. I am an asshole, and frequently raw and socially unacceptable. I fuck in bad ways and hurt the girls I love. I produce amateur porn. And I'm cool with it. If anyone gives me grief, its' on their head. But if I whined about this stuff, whined about the effect it has on my life, etc, then it is my problem.

No, not saying that you, or anyone else is whining. I'm saying that you need to own your own issues. Own your submissiveness, own your asshole-ness, own your predilection for cross-dressing, or gay sex, or whatever else makes you tick. Own it, and be cool with it, and what other people say becomes less important.

And I am surprised that the word "slave" hasn't come into discussion this more.

I'm whining. So there.

And I guess I count as a slave. When they call, "Slave-girl!", I answer to it. *Shrug*

It's like it's cool to be a slave, as long as you point out that you're some in-your-face go-getter the rest of your life. "I'm MASTER'S SLAVE, and I don't submit to ANYBODY ELSE, and I have a DOMINANT personality."

There are tons of things I could say about some of this stuff, but I'm trying to remain polite.

I don't know, there have been a number of perspectives on this thread, just as there have been in discussions about what is a submissive, what is a slave, etc.

Just a pet peeve of mine about judging and all that...I have always held the point of view that there's nothing wrong with making judgments. We all make judgments all the time, otherwise no one would be capable of making any decisions in their life.

I worded that wrong. I should've said "people who judge unfairly about things that don't really affect them." But I was lazy.

 

[intothewoods]

Why not? So far as I can tell, they do as they're fucking told. That is the core of the whole affair, isn't it?

--



I know, darlin, and I agree. I was just trying to make both the point and the example. You are set, and while your life may not be where others may be, it is an example of someone in your situation finding the place she should be. In other words, it happens. People, even seriously, bone-deep submissive people, can find the place that completes them.

Personally, I am the guy that argues with people when they down someone for being a doormat, or even wimpy. It's like the discussion previously about non-manly men. I will razz a guy for whining about being wimpy when I know he can change it, but I don't give any man grief for being that way if that is how they choose to be. It's one thing to be a certain way and whine, and another to be that way and accept it. Be what you are, and be cool with it. I am an asshole, and frequently raw and socially unacceptable. I fuck in bad ways and hurt the girls I love. I produce amateur porn. And I'm cool with it. If anyone gives me grief, its' on their head. But if I whined about this stuff, whined about the effect it has on my life, etc, then it is my problem.

No, not saying that you, or anyone else is whining. I'm saying that you need to own your own issues. Own your submissiveness, own your asshole-ness, own your predilection for cross-dressing, or gay sex, or whatever else makes you tick. Own it, and be cool with it, and what other people say becomes less important.

And I am surprised that the word "slave" hasn't come into discussion this more.

You produce amateur porn?

 

[eastern sun]

It's like it's cool to be a slave, as long as you point out that you're some in-your-face go-getter the rest of your life. "I'm MASTER'S SLAVE, and I don't submit to ANYBODY ELSE, and I have a DOMINANT personality."

My own experience of being a slave is that it really slows down the whole "go-getter" lifestyle. Unless you're being told to "go" and "get" by the powers that be.

But I have also felt very insecure about my willingness to let my sexuality dampen my ambition, wondering if I was making the right choice, setting the right priorities. Those insecurities can find expression in the kind of statements you're describing, like the drowning man thrashing and flailing and grasping at straws before he realizes he just needs to float.

We're here on these forums listening and talking to people at all stages in their discovery of these feelings and experiences. And, to make it more complicated, we all want different experiences too. It can be very confusing if anything is held up as the "one and only" truth.

I learn from your struggles, BiBunny. I hope you continue to share them.

 

[intothewoods]

My own experience of being a slave is that it really slows down the whole "go-getter" lifestyle. Unless you're being told to "go" and "get" by the powers that be.

But I have also felt very insecure about my willingness to let my sexuality dampen my ambition, wondering if I was making the right choice, setting the right priorities. Those insecurities can find expression in the kind of statements you're describing, like the drowning man thrashing and flailing and grasping at straws before he realizes he just needs to float.

We're here on these forums listening and talking to people at all stages in their discovery of these feelings and experiences. And, to make it more complicated, we all want different experiences too. It can be very confusing if anything is held up as the "one and only" truth.

I learn from your struggles, BiBunny. I hope you continue to share them.

I dress sort of school marmish at work. I do feel like my sexuality must be closed off there. I don't feel like it's that hard to be one way in one place and another way at home, just that I'm trying to be good at everything all the time, which is exhausting.

 

[Keroin]

Now that that's out of the way, I'm just curious about the doormat thing. What constitutes a doormat? Why is it considered such a derogatory term? Do you think it's one of those things that reflects as much on the name-caller as the name-callee?

Also, feel free to discuss whatever that's kinda related to the doormat thing, not necessarily just my specific question. I thought it might be an interesting discussion, and I figured we needed one of those to combat the influx of kids at home from school over the summer.

I worded that wrong. I should've said "people who judge unfairly about things that don't really affect them." But I was lazy.

Here's what I don't understand, if you ask a group of people for their opinions on a subject, and they express them, are they then being judgmental?

I would never refer to someone on this board as a doormat, nor would I express my opinion of their level of submissiveness, if I was not asked to do so. But if I'm asked, I'll be honest.

It's like it's cool to be a slave, as long as you point out that you're some in-your-face go-getter the rest of your life. "I'm MASTER'S SLAVE, and I don't submit to ANYBODY ELSE, and I have a DOMINANT personality."

Whose POV is this? Where is this coming from?

My opinion is that anyone can be anything they want, in or out of bed, slave, sub, bottom, or none of the above. What makes you happy makes you happy. Cool. If it doesn't make you happy, though, then you should probably consider why and how you can change the situation and/or your behaviour. But this opinion of mine, I apply it to everyone, in every walk of life, not just the ultra submissive. It's not a judgement call on someone's natural inclinations, it's a statement that I believe people need to be accountable and take responsibility for their own happiness. That's all.

Can someone give me a real life example of how I, as a strong, independent person, can help the ultra submissive among us be happier and more at ease with themselves? I just have no idea how I am supposed to do that in real life.

 

[BiBunny]

I. Give. Up.

Why did I come back to this thread again?

 

[ecstaticsub]

<<snip>>


I worded that wrong. I should've said "people who judge unfairly about things that don't really affect them." But I was lazy.

You mean like how you judge those with on-line relationships even though they don't affect you?

 

[BiBunny]

.....

 

[Bi_Kitty]

I have gathered enough information to go tell rape victims, wives who get beaten, people who have been mugged, and families of serial killers that it is ALL their fault. GOTCHA! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

You mean like how you judge those with on-line relationships even though they don't affect you?

That's cute. Did that make you better about yourself?

 

[Keroin]

I. Give. Up.

Why did I come back to this thread again?

BB, forgive me if I've inadvertently bruised your feelings. I asked what I thought were some straightforward, legitimate questions. I don't understand where your frustration is coming from.

I thought we were supposed to discuss the topic?

 

[ecstaticsub]

That's cute. Did that make you better about yourself?

Yep, I've kept my mouth shut too long and besides I am Daddy's submissive and I don't submit to ANYONE ELSE and I have a DOMINANT personality.

 

[Bi_Kitty]

Yep, I've kept my mouth shut too long and besides I am Daddy's submissive and I don't submit to ANYONE ELSE and I have a DOMINANT personality.

That's cute.

 

[intothewoods]

I was enjoying the thread, and I don't spend my time criticizing doormats or proclaiming myself to be dominant outside of the bedroom. I totally feel like I am missing something.

 

[ImOnIt]

Lets imagine that everyone is chilled out, that questions are genuine and there is no room to be offended. Remember people live in different places, where there are different behaviours and customs - so offence is internal.

Also, that repetition of a word Doormat-doormat-doormouse-doormat submissive-submit-submission .... Repetition of a word can make it sound ridiculous.

Remember that some people positively identify with what someone else may consider an insult. Also, that people may mistake a compliment for an insult. Keep it level headed

I find this way interesting, and if i do then others may too.

 

[Keroin]

I was enjoying the thread, and I don't spend my time criticizing doormats or proclaiming myself to be dominant outside of the bedroom. I totally feel like I am missing something.

Ditto.

 

[rida]

It sounds to me that there is a big disconnect in the communication here between the self proclaimed "doormat" and the other posters.

Homburg post below touches and explain what I'm trying to say.

There is a big difference between been a "doormat" and knowing and/or accepting it and just been a doormat and unaware of it. Each one of the submissive here that has self-labeled as a doormat is strongly (and at times painfully) aware of their nature and have come to some level of acceptance that it is who they are. They just wish the rest of the kinky society at least would not look down on them because of it.

The reality is that most of the people are not looking down on them. If you are self-aware and don't whine about it, very few people have a problem with whatever you are. And the ones that do, it is ultimately their problem.

Most of the people on these boards are very accepting of what label each of us wish to self-identify with and nobody is looking down to any of the self-proclaimed "doormat" submissive here. However being a discussion board, and being that the posters here tend to be people that like a stimulating and vivacious discussion, questioning and probing will be part of it.

For the record, I've come to realize that I am quite the doormat myself. Luckily I also have a strong preservation and survival instinct and have learned to avoid finding myself in situation where I'll be taken advantage of too badly. Or to painfully stand up for myself if I have to. And when I don't and get taken advantage of, I accept that it is a risk of being the way I am and deal with the consequences at best.

Why not? So far as I can tell, they do as they're fucking told. That is the core of the whole affair, isn't it?

--



I know, darlin, and I agree. I was just trying to make both the point and the example. You are set, and while your life may not be where others may be, it is an example of someone in your situation finding the place she should be. In other words, it happens. People, even seriously, bone-deep submissive people, can find the place that completes them.

Personally, I am the guy that argues with people when they down someone for being a doormat, or even wimpy. It's like the discussion previously about non-manly men. I will razz a guy for whining about being wimpy when I know he can change it, but I don't give any man grief for being that way if that is how they choose to be. It's one thing to be a certain way and whine, and another to be that way and accept it. Be what you are, and be cool with it. I am an asshole, and frequently raw and socially unacceptable. I fuck in bad ways and hurt the girls I love. I produce amateur porn. And I'm cool with it. If anyone gives me grief, its' on their head. But if I whined about this stuff, whined about the effect it has on my life, etc, then it is my problem.

No, not saying that you, or anyone else is whining. I'm saying that you need to own your own issues. Own your submissiveness, own your asshole-ness, own your predilection for cross-dressing, or gay sex, or whatever else makes you tick. Own it, and be cool with it, and what other people say becomes less important.

And I am surprised that the word "slave" hasn't come into discussion this more.

 

[YourCaptor]

Some more contemplating the subject.

I’m zooming out here, taking a look at the big picture.

In America, and many other places, there is a top, and a bottom, and in order to be at the top, you got to stand on those below you. I don’t think we like to look at the world around us in that way, but lets face it, that’s how it is. You want more money you got to leave others with less, you want power you got to take it way from others. It’s a closed system, we aren’t innovating, climbing higher and higher, we are just fighting over the top of the human pyramid.

Every once in a while you get those rare gems, those that will gladly be your footstool if it gets you a bit closer to where you want to be. Problem is, following the same rule, if those at the top have glory, those at the bottom are dirt.

Doormats I think are seen as the bottom of the bottom. The untouchable.

In BDSM, doormats are seen as lifeless, will-less, robots.

In the working world, doormats take the fall, get the coffee, and clap on promotion day.

But there is one area in which doormats are revered. In love, the givers, forgivers, unconditional lovers are praised. Mothers, husbands, the faithful, etc. Most of us I think see these characters as anything but empty zombies, weak willed idiots that give too much.

How you view a doormat, I suppose it depends on your lens.

How does that translate into something useful?

It could shed some light on the perspectives of those who bash doormats. They aren’t looking at it in terms of loving relationships, the are looking at in terms of power, probably within the community, they are looking at play, with levels of advancement, or they are confused and just go along. Most probably have a combination of perspectives, plus many I haven’t thought of here.